Future of NetJets (Europe) ?!?

[SpainFly]

What do you in general think about the future of NetJets (especially NetJets Europe) ? Has the Jet-Sharing concept already proven to work out ? For FlexJet it did not work out unfortunately :bored::bored:

I am looking for a new job, and what is my paramount of importance is that the job is safe in regard of the company still existing in 10 years or so. I dont want to change jobs all the time...

When I think about the lifestyle flying for NetJets I feel it could suit me, but when I think about 1000 Pilots losing maybe their job at the same time that frightens me as well :rolleyes:

There is so much talk about NetJets (good and bad) that I am totally weird :confused:

I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window ?

What will happen to the last pilots hired (If I join now my seniority number as far as I heard would be above 1000) if the amount of flights stays like it is for the time beeing ?

Maybe you can share your own thoughts with me to make my descision to join or not to join a bit easier. There is still some time until the INDOC Course and signing the Contract.

[orangedriver]

This is aviation. Nothing is certain anymore. If you want to start in a company that will be around for another 10 years then I suggest you start your own and then work hard to make sure it stays in business.

Good luck with your choice!

od

[CL300]

Aviation is running on a 10 years sine wave, growing for 10 descending for another 10 and so on....If you want a secure job, do not get into aviation :{

Risk is everywhere, ask the ex-Sabena or ex-Swiss; country flag carriers if they imagined their company to collapse literally overnight...

As a pilot you will find jobs in Asia, if you need to work, as a lifestyle you have private individuals or time share owners..Netjets is spreading the risk across a large number of customers hence a little better for forecasting.

You are saying that the level of flying today is not good...Are you a Netjets insider trying to convince himself that he/she should accept this Vueling position? Or A future pilot trying to make a decision about leaving this same Vueling position ?

At Netjets, pilots are in line with the amount of shares being sold, same for aircrafts coming in, managing a company is a long term project not an averreaction everytime someone is farting on the other side of the universe. Let the top management to manage; the middle management to paddle ;and the pilots to fly.
Nobody can make a decision for you, but if you join today ANY company you will have the last seniority number, or no number at all...Netjets or Iberia or Lufthansa...all the same, I believe in any company LIFO is the rule when lay-offs are in the pipe...

Have fun

[south coast]

Your reference to BH was a little strange. It is a very successful group and I would say that they didnt become so successful by throwing money away or buying into companies or ideas which are unlikely to make money.

So, I would rest assured that NJ has excellent backing.

Safety of your job, you take your chances with any company that you join these days and NJ is no more of a risk that anything else, perhaps less of a risk because the economic downturn which the world is experiencing currently tends to effect the very rich (NJ customers) less than the majority.

Your seniority with NJ, it will be around the 1000 pilot mark if you join, but you will be at the bottom of the list of whatever company you join, so that shouldnt be a factor.

To be honest, your reasons are quite weak and I would rather recommend you look at the package NJ offers and if it suits you take it, if it doesnt-dont.

Fairly simple in reality.

[spaniel]

SpainFly,

As previous posts have said, aviation prediction is not a precise science! Whoever you apply to will hold an element of risk, but I think NJE is as safe as any.

If you're thinking about NJE, I recommend that you apply - there's no guarantee you'll be accepted. If you are, you still can decide whether to accept the offer or not and you'll have found out a lot more about the company.

Its not clear if you have successfully been through the recruitment process or not, you talk about your Indoc date, but if you have not........I don't wish to be rude but if your spoken english is the same standard as your written english, then I suspect you would not get through the Interview and English Language tests anyway.

Good luck, I know its not an easy decision.:ok:

spaniel

[BNflyer]

Well it seems like SpainFly is up for the INDOC the way I see it?? I don’t know about the required English level for joining NJE but you can’t expect every non native English speaker to be as good as you are Spaniel? How good is your Spanish? French? German? The second language level for UK people in general is rubbish. And I’m smirking every time someone in our company is trying to pronounce one of our Spanish pilot’s names. Talk about poor accent when you still are using your English way of saying words but in Spanish. Sorry for being off topic…but this is an open forum for everybody, no matter if you are speaking queen's English or not and it’s quite hard to judge someone’s work language proficiency in a forum like this. Please don’t make comments like that…it doesn’t encourage non-English speakers like SpainFly and myself to make any comments and questions at all!

[Phil77]

BNflyer: :ok: couldn't have said it better! (maybe because my first language isn't english either! ;))


Just pulled that from the NE website:


Preferred profile and skills

Extensive European flight experience
Command time advantageous
Strong JAR OPS commercial aviation background
Military or airline training
Excellent interpersonal skills
Multi-crew experience (500 hours)
Flexible attitude, and
Knowledge of two or more European languages

...like you said, very few among us speak two languages like their native tounge!

[weido_salt]

Empires of the likes of BH don't get where they are, by giving money away.

If employees are sitting at home too long and not earning their keep, the axe will be sharpened.

Who's job is safe then? Nobodies in or out of aviation.

[SpainFly]

Thanks to all of you for your answers so far.

I share the opinion, that empires like BH are not that successful because of wasting money.

At the other hand, what I read in the press so far about Mr. Buffet impressed me pretty much. I find him very special in a good way. I mean I do of course not know him personally, but he seems to be sympathic man who has not lost focus on reality (like many other ppls with thick wallets).

Sorry for the confusion within my initial post, to make it clearer: I am not yet assigned to any INDOC Course. I meant it that way that there is still a lot of time until I would be in an INDOC after passing the selections.

I know there is a good chance to fail. But thats the same in any other company as well. So I try to think positive.

I was not even aware that my english is that bad :bored: Actually I was pretty convinced its more or less ok. I know that a english test is part of the selection as well, is it that difficult ? :ooh:

[lifter91]

SpainFly: Your english seems fine to me buddy.


lifter

[Taxi2parking]

BNflyer

....tell you what, when NJTA start publishing SOPs in Spanish, then I'll start worrying about my Spanish accent. A good level of English is essential in NJTA and Spaniel is right to point that out.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

"I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window?"

Sorry, Barkshire Hathaway not that sucessful. My goodness, what would you call sucessful. It's the 14th biggest business in the world.

Company value of 150 Billion and 46 Billion CASH in the bank and the price of ONE SINGLE SHARE $127,000. Similar value to Shell and more in assets, think you might want to re-think the statement!! 46 BILLION IN CASH

Don't take my word for it, go to Forbes.com and have a look. Not sure where you get the information from that they are throwing money out of the window.

[Flintstone]

SpainFly.


I'm uncertain as to whether you're either incredibly naieve or a troll. If the former then I'm sure that's a winner with the opposite sex. If the latter then it's a poor attempt.

As Smeagel's Lover wrote, BH is incrediby successful and I can see no way how you could think otherwise. As for having a seniority number in the thousands, that's your choice.

[jousteagle]

"I know it belongs to Berkshire Hathaway Group, but BH is not that a big and succesful mother company because it is throwing money out of the window ?"

I think SpainFly meant to say that BH didn't get to be a big and successful mother company by throwing money out of the window. In otherwords, if NJE at some point in the future started bleeding cash, BH wouldn't wouldn't continue to support the business model.

Personally, I think BH have done their homework and have a fine product and will continue to be successful. As mentioned before, aviation has turbulence! I think NJ can safely navigate most of the turbulence, but some will feel the bumps more than others!

Cheers!

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Mmmm could have been lost in translation, and i can see the following point that should NJE start to suffer financially would BH pull out. Personally I would be very surprised, i suspect it may take many years of substantial losses for them to walk away. They have only just started to make money over the last couple of years after losses, and they will definatly want a return on their investment.

Furthermore they are contractually obligated to the owners to provide a service for a given contract length, so Mr Rich and Mrs Absolutly Loaded are not going to let them get away with that without some financial penalty.

In summary i think if BH walked away from Netjets most people will have packed up shop and gone home long before. 46 Bill takes some spending (i imagine!!) and thats before Mr Buffett puts his hand down the back of his sofa to rumage for his own stack of cash (another 30 bill). The amount of cash BH has at it's disposal is staggering.

SB

[Phil77]

A word of caution: Warren Buffet did not become the richest man in the world by allowing his companies to loose beyond a point where his entire fortune is jeopardised.

Supposedly all of NetJets is now profitalble, but should it become necessary to shut down operations (that would take some time of constant losses without a doubt - another 9/11 springs to mind), Mrs Absolutely Loaded can STILL use that as a tax write off and wouldn't loose a dime - even though it might show up on a different position on the tax return: moved from "business expense" to "loss resulting from business investment" :E

[Adios]

I have heard that NetJets business model requires a fleet of 100 to be profitable. NetJets Europe reached 100 aircraft in 2006 and posted a profit that year. The profit tripled in 2007. They will receive 39 new aircraft in 2008 and accelerated the delivery schedule on all of them. They have 24 Hawker 4000s on order, 33 Falcon 7-Xs, an increase of 9 from their initial $1.1 Billion order. They bought 17 Gulfstream 550s last year and can't get their hands on enough because it is a hot seller. They just ordered a bunch of Falcon 2000s as well, I think 24 of them. All told, they have $2.5 Billion in outstanding aircraft orders and will receive $750 Million worth in 2008.

They have two kinds of customers, multi-millionaires and billionaires. These people are not fuel price sensitive and they have a five year contract, so a complete halt in sales would still leave them in business for a few years steady state with a large enough fleet to remain in the black.

Besides, I am willing to bet a good bunch of their owners trade commodities and are getting even wealthier off of the oil price hikes. When the economy is poor, the wealthy use their money to buy investments on the cheap, just like Warren Buffet and BH do and they need their jets to travel around closing the deals.

As for another 9/11, it will drive customers away from traditional airlines, but the wealthier ones will buy a NetJets share. Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulf Stream.

For those razzing SpainFly about his English, it certainly seems good enough to me. I've met a few NetJets FOs who were worse. I had no trouble understanding what he meant about BH pulling the plug if the operation starts bleeding red ink. I just don't think it will.

[Flintstone]

Aaaaaand after that commercial break it's back to to the programme :O

[doubleu-anker]

Flintstone

You beat me to it!


Adios

Great stuff indeed!

I am trying to work out whether, you have just completed the initial indoc or just come off an advanced re current indoc., which has certainly had the desired effect, from a NJE point of view. Of that there is no doubt.

"Privacy, safety and security are some of the top reasons they buy a NetJet share in the first place, that plus the sexy ramp presence of a Gulfstream."

Do I take it from the above sentence, other companies, charter or airline, are not safe but Netjets are???

Not quite so good when the sexy G550 is on the ramp but "I own a share, for a limited period of time, not the whole aircraft".

Are you wearing dark rose tinted glasses or been looking through a red wine glass too often?

[Adios]

Gents,

I guess that does sound a bit like an advert. The point is that I think they will be around, which is what SpainFly is wondering. I think it's a better bet job security wise than many of the traditional airlines would be.

As for safety, I mention that in the context of terrorism. If there is another 9/11 type event, I think NetJets will see a sales spike as people look for a way to travel that is safer from terrorism and hijacking. Taking a private flight with no strangers aboard is likely to be viewed as a hell of a lot safer than a commercial flight with lord knows who on board. If I am correct about this, then a NetJets pilot will have better job security post terror strike than say the pilots of the victimized airline will.

It would be nice to own an entire Gulf Stream, but I'm not so sure operating and maintaining it would be so nice.

[shneidertrophy]

Did the Netjets business model cater for prices of 200USD+ per barrel of crude oil?

Did they cover problems arising for an increased pressure on the environment, in case all the rich start flying their own jets? What about the carbon footprints of these nice and shiny sexy jets? The amount of CO2 emission/pax carried?...
Remember, Netjets ops require a huge amount of empty ferry flights!

Did they cater for the rising number of ATC organizations due to the fact that these corporate jets take the same amount of airspace as a 747, they require separation as well etc and this in an already congested airspace, especially over mainland Europe.

The argument of the rich getting richer etc is all very well, but a huge amount of NJE blockhours are sold to people who use the NJE service for showing off. They dont have the money to buy their own jet but they like the snob element of it, so they buy a 25hr share in a jet.
These people do feel the world wide slowdown and they will start to cut this budget if needed.

Just playing devils advocate here, but this unbridled growth of fractional ownership has its limits as well and I am afraid that these limits might be reached sooner than we all think!

[angryblackman]

Hiring at NJE - You Forgot the most important....

NO AMERICANS...(The Ugly American)
NO FAA CERTIFICATES...(There Unfit to Fly)

[Flintstone]

NO FAA CERTIFICATES...(There Unfit to Fly)



NJE have hired American and Canadian pilots. They just happened to hold JAA licences which are required to fly JAA registered aircraft. The same as needing an FAA licence to fly 'N' registered aircraft. Don't let the facts stop you from posting though :rolleyes:









(Psssst! It's 'they're' as in 'they are'. :hmm:)

[CL300]

Not exactly true Flint; you can fly a N registered aircraft with a JAA license even commercially ( JAR-OPs1); this is a temporary measure, limited in scope , registration and time but you can; of course it is not straight forward plan but it is doable.
It is an Authorization not a validation..

[SpainFly]

This topic is really interesting to me, thank you all for replying so active here :ok:

And again sorry for my confusing statement about BH.
I meant of course that BH is very successful, and that they are not successful because of losing money ;)

[seupp]

angryblackman

U almost had me:rolleyes:

Better english next time and u might be taken as credible :E

seupp

[Flintstone]

CL300.

You're quite right of course. What I should have taken the time to write is that NJE won't accept this arrangement despite having done so in the very early days.

The dangers of posting in a hurry :rolleyes:

[rotorknight]

I never knew that this was a language forum:}
As pointed out before,I would really like to meet native English speakers that fullfill the NJE criteria for speaking 2 or more languages.

Have a good weekend:}

[Taxi2parking]

sorry don't understand the relevance of your point - the 'criteria' as you term it is under the heading of preferred profile. So given the choice between two otherwise equal candidates you are not going to pick the guy who speaks poor English even if he could direct a light opera in 8 other languages.


A sound command of the English language is essential in a multi-cultural airline. Being able to chat about the weather in French or Spanish with the passengers is all very nice, but if you screw up handling an abnormal or emergency situation because of poor English then it's all rather irrelevant.

[CL300]

Flintstone CL300.

You're quite right of course. What I should have taken the time to write is that NJE won't accept this arrangement despite having done so in the very early days.

The dangers of posting in a hurry


I was not reffering to the early days, still today the FAA gives authorisation to fly N registered aircrafts with a JAA licence; As you know we are using N reg Hawkers and falcons as supplemental lift in summer.

[Flintstone]

I know the authorities offer it but I don't think NJE are accepting non-JAA licences, are they?

[redsnail]

Flinty, not according to Carmen in recruitment.

A mate's been told his interview scheduled for August has been postponed.

[CL300]

The other way around.

Flying N reg with JAA Licences.

Netjets still the same, JAR is good ... rest of the world: get a JAR one..

[SpainFly]

I received the following as a Privat Message, to handle it confidential I removed the user Name. As well I added some Smileys.....

I find it quite interesting, and would be interested if you share his opinion ?

Hello ,

I saw your message on the website . I understand your inquiry & questions . In apparence NJE reflect a good aspect on general way . But , how the company is working is strange and for many aspect there is a lot of grey zone . As far as i know it's a multitude face company . There is a least 5 differents companies , one is handling pilot , other is operating the a/c and pilot ( wich is not the same ! ) , third one is managing the share for owner .
If you choose to work for NJE you will work for NTA wich is the operational side of NJE .

What is sure is NTA is not doing any money at all :bored: , it's loosing at lost . But the real business of NJE is to sale share of A/C . So as far as this business will go on , the company can balance one big loose with the benefit of an other of it's own company .

As soon as the sale of share A/C will slow down or stop .... this will be a difficult period for NTA employees :( ... or NJE employees wich is nearly the same because NTA is giving 90% of the work.

This model is only valid for a continous growing market :bored:, or , like 7 years ago in the States if you reach saturation of the market ... you can not expand any more and then you need to reduce your number of charges :(. I think NJE will have the same evolution like NJA . Look what happened in US and you will see the same here . Job cuts , reducing salary . :rolleyes:

Never forgott , NJE is not transporting very rich people :confused: , they are doing business by saling share of A/C .
Next 2 years will be decisive .

[Taxi2parking]

With regard to the PM, if i could pick out one element for particular ridicule... well actually no it's all b:mad:ks. Although I especially liked 'NJE employees wich is nearly the same because NTA is giving 90% of the work' they obvioulsy don't even realise that NetJets Europe is NTA - I assume they think NTA is the NetJets America.

Whoever wrote that clearly has no idea of what they speak.

[shneidertrophy]

What I really do not grasp is the total oblivion a lot of NJE pilots apparently are living in.

Its ok to defend the company you are working for, of course the airplane you fly is the best in the world etc...

But c'mon people, when somebody is asking an opinion because he/she wants to make a decision based on information (partially found on the net) give them the correct information!

Aviation is suffering, big companies are crumbling under the pressure of environment, fuel costs, shortage of crews, excess of crews,....you name it!
So don't tell me netjets is not suffering, don't tell me netjets has not seen a decrease in number of shares sold, don't tell me netjets did not have to re-design their business model because of the higher fuel prices!

Fair enough, they make most of their money on the selling of aircraft and shares so the operation aspect of NTA does not play that big of a role!
But still, we all know NTA is throwing money out of doors and windows on a daily bases. And untill now that money all came plentifull from the state and Mr W.B's countless enterprises!

But exactly how long is that going to last? W.B. did not become one of the wealthiest men on earth by handing out gifts on a daily bases!

NJE is/has been a test case in Europe for the fractional owner ship model of Netjets USA. And as said before, this is based on an ever expanding market!
But what if the market starts to implode? What if the growth just comes to a stand still? What if the operational costs of NTA do exceed the profit made by selling shares and aircraft?

On the 17th of June I have asked three very straight forward questions, Questions every company in this line of business should ask itself...

Still no answer!

[northern boy]

Interesting, but remember that the US market is different to that in Europe. More private/corporate ownership of aircraft for a start and with a longer history. Also US airspace and airports with one or two exceptions are a lot less congested than in Europe so maybe less reason to use a private aircraft if times are tough, especially with the discounting applied by US airlines who of course cannot go bankrupt due to chapter 11 protection. In Europe, airlines are very fast to pass on increased costs to passengers although there is some evidence of this beginning to happen in the domestic US sector and of course any European ,non state owned airline making a sustained loss can and will go under PDQ. A company such as NJ and they are the biggest of their kind, depend on the patronage of a relatively few high net worth individuals rather than having to cram hundreds of punters into every aircraft, every day to stay afloat. If the whole world goes into free fall over a sustained period then it will not just be aircraft operators who suffer, and there will be more to worry about than selling aircraft shares.

As you say there could be interesting times ahead but thats always been aviation.

[smallfry]

OK shneidertrophy - I will bite, for nothing else to do... (FYI I am flying plenty thanks)

Did the Netjets business model cater for prices of 200USD+ per barrel of crude oil?

Yes. It is part of the contract with the share. When fuel goes over an agreed value the owner pays the difference.

Here is a question for you - how many companies had a business model to cater for $200 oil? Or is it just NJ that was so unprepared for this massive price rise?


Did they cover problems arising for an increased pressure on the environment, in case all the rich start flying their own jets? What about the carbon footprints of these nice and shiny sexy jets? The amount of CO2 emission/pax carried?...

There is a carbon offset program. The owners (can) buy in to make everyone happy.

Remember, Netjets ops require a huge amount of empty ferry flights!

Do they? Define Huge.

Did they cater for the rising number of ATC organizations due to the fact that these corporate jets take the same amount of airspace as a 747, they require separation as well etc and this in an already congested airspace, especially over mainland Europe.

You file a flight plan, get accepted, pay the fees. Same as everyone else. And with all this downturn you are so excited about - everyone else is flying less as well.

[CE550B]

Well spoken smallfry. One small correction; as far as I'm aware, the carbon offset program is now mandatory for all new owners, existing owners (contracts) CAN buy in to this program. :ok:

[ix_touring]

There was an article in Flight this week (business aviation section) showing a down turn in premium travel tickets in the US (read business travelers) and a similar upturn in biz jet flights/sales/shares etc....

So if the EU follows the US (it often does) then NJE should be fine....

We also have the added hassle of congested regional hubs and security to further "push" travelers onto smaller aircraft.


iX

[No RYR for me]

I have not laughed so much in while.... SpainFly has a big chip on his shoulder but NO clue about how NJ or NJE works and what is currently going on...Look what happened in US and you will see the same here . Job cuts , reducing salary .
They have increased the salary both in the US and Europe and last week signed a contract for another 40 Gulfstreams on top of the 33 7X's :p

Maybe a better idea to focus on the imploding Spanish aviation market with companies like Vueling and the like!

aeroncamanIt was a widely held belief that NJE did not turn a profit for 10 years; I heard figures of losses to the tune of 212 million USD, although I am not sure if this is true. If you just read the annual report of Berkshire Hathaway you don't have to "rumour" that it is "a widely held believe" the figures are for everybody there to see and have been there for 3 years!!!! :ugh: The company is now in their 13th year and 3rd profitable years. :D

[hollingworthp]

Any fool

Yep - Uncle Warren (famed for his rash decisions) was probably a bit tipsy one evening and thought - what the hell, why not get a failing airline with an unproven model. Obviously all successful businesses make a profit from day one ... :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Just because you don't have all the information and fail to understand, does not mean that others are not more in the know than you.

[CL300]

aeroncaman If I go into business and loose 212 million USD in my first year of trading, that loss is carried forward as a debt/borrowing or lost invested capital. In my second year I need to make 212 million USD back, before I turn a profit, and get back to where I was.

To state that NJE has been profitable for 3 years, does not mean anything unless the previous losses are taken into account. Any fool can go into business if they are propped up by a cash cow. That is not real business.

Are we missing something?

Aeronca, bedfordshire, English speaker and reader ? I mean mother tongue ?

Read again, carefully the articles about Netjets Europe and the interaction with BKH; read the shareholder convention minutes in Ohama this year. It is easier, everything is public. WB is the richest man in the world, it is not by blogging on the Internet; look at the companies in BKH galaxy.

For the European operation they were talking about cumulative loss in operation, in other terms, how much money that was invested did not come back yet. Do you have any idea of the amount of money one would need to create a Netjets Models in Europe ? aircrafts availibility set aside; the figure has 9 zeros.....

Totally agree, if you are a pilot, (no doubt on an aeronca) stick with it; do not go into finance and mergers, it is gonna hurt.

[CL300]

aeroncaman

CL300 - thank you for the quick resort to sarcasm. Perhaps you could use some of your superior knowledge to put this idiot bedfordshire aeronca pilot out of his misery, with a simplified answer.

No...What would be the point ? what would the positive side of it ? Which benefits ?

If you want to know the true insid, please join the inside..We need people in lisbon...

[Grecian2000]

netjets have dragged themselves into 'profit' on the back of strong usa business economy, a rising eu market and a fashionable brand image to attract the uninitiated new user.

brand images can wane or become unfashionable (its happening slowly now to netjets brand as users become more educated and wake up and smell the coffee) jet markets are cooling, the us parent economy is suffering, and the bizjet wave they rode in the last 3 years is slowing.

also they never had serious eu competition, now vistajet and other major eu operators are becoming large and serious concerns with more power than flexjet/skyjet to compete (flexjet/skyjet being the only other serious netjets competitor originally) they no longer have a monopoly.

add all this changing environment up and if i was at netjets senior management i would be a tad concerned. lets review in 3 years and see what has happened...i have my views...

biggest challenge for them is the fact that their brand and product has a growth and stagnation life cycle just like every other branded product. as users are now much more informed about the alternative choices and suppliers than they were 3 years ago and the market is now possibly saturated. its going to be interesting.

[shneidertrophy]

CL300,

usually your replies are well educated and informative.

I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...

The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!:suspect:

[CL300]

shneidertrophy CL300,

usually your replies are well educated and informative.

I have to say that this time you lowered yourself to a level never seen before...

The man was just looking for an answer, no need to shoot him down like this!


Not reached the bottom yet, I can go very bad and dark...

My sour comment ( not acid yet) is a quick answer to pilots who think they can be managers, just because they DO the job. A bit like a train driver that would interfere in the dynamics of an High speed train.
UNLESS provided with proper training, pilots are not managers therefore they can go on complaining for ever, but they should really stick to their jobs : Flying.

I do not know anyone in this forum posting regularly that can position himself as a top manager from whom decision are taken for Netjets.

I'm spending my time educating people, when a query is legitimate and not driven by polemics, I'm more happy to call in. But when it is based on non-sense, I start with the .22 upwards.

Does someone ask the same thing for BA, LH,AF ?

Fly, study, rest, study, fly and stop speculating...

[Capt Crash]

I would rather be working for an established company that has the ability to consolidate as opposed to a company trying to get a foothold in the market in such stormy economic times.

Netjets is the market leader, after 10 years they have reached critical mass and if the company stops expanding the operation will remain profitable. Of course, the real money is made by selling new aircraft and cards. The management in London have all the skills in place to make it through the next few years. I think with a CV like MB’s, it would be hard to find a better manager.

[EatMyShorts!]

MB is stepping down anyways...but he's a good person, I agree on that. Unfortunately, if you look at middle-management and "small" managers, then CL300's observation...UNLESS provided with proper training, pilots are not managers therefore they can go on complaining for ever...is unfortunately true. Because these guys did not have training as well. Currently, there's a wave of people stepping down from their positions and they will be replaced with fresh people who will get this training.

[Brizeguy]

SpainFly,
What do you in general think about the future of NetJets (especially NetJets Europe) ? Has the Jet-Sharing concept already proven to work out ? For FlexJet it did not work out unfortunately
Netjets Europe is surely the safest bet when considering if a company will survive.
Warren Buffett has always invested in companys for the long term.
BH is a large umbrella and all the companies beneath it look after each other.
As an example, Flight Safety is part of BH. Training funds for pilots, engineers etc. stay under the BH umbrella. Netjets can afford to make a loss as really it is only BH moving money around.
When you consider some of the other BH groups such as insurance, how can Netjets fail to do better than any other Biz jet company?
Its not a level playing field and Netjets has the highest ground possible.

[Adios]

Here's a story on BH. Stock price is down from the all time high of nearly $150,000 per share on 10 Dec 2007. Many people think that makes the shares a bargain. Bloomberg.com: Worldwide (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aGO0z0CHui9I&refer=worldwide)

Quite a dramatic headline, but the article is mostly bullish on BH. I've seen the stock way down before only to go up almost 100% in the following 5 years. One analyst says the intrinsic value is $157,000 per share and it has made the intrinsic value 11 of the last 12 years.

At these prices, only wealthy individuals and institutions can afford the stock, which is ideal because these are the times small investors cut and run, yet these are the market conditions in which BH seems to perform best.

The most important line in the article is that Buffet buys companies whose management he trusts. The fact that he left Richard Santulli in place to manage NetJets shows this trust. The fact that Santulli stayed shows it is mutual. These are not the the typical actions of a venture capitalist who plans to flip a company for a fast buck. If that was the goal, he'd already have sold it. I think he's in for the long haul (pun intended).

[northern boy]

This is all fascinating stuff, however I think that we should remember that the long term goals of a company like BH are decided a long way above the pay scale of mere pilots and there is little chance that anyone outside of the senior managers of the company have any idea of the strategies of such an organisation. Anyone can speculate using information in the public domain such as oil prices but given that BH has a turnover similar to a small country and probably the political leverage of a much bigger one there will be many factors of which we are not aware and those who do know aren't saying. Did anyone predict George Soros' raid on sterling a few years back? certainly no one at my end of the food chain, these people move in circles outside of the everyday concerns of most of the rest of us. That may upset readers of the Guardian but is probably good for those in the employ of these corporations although I wouldn't for a minute imagine that the futures of a few thousand employees will give WB and his pals the slightest worry. The airlines are no different, they are just less good at it.

Aviation has always been up and down. The industry as a whole survived the oil shocks of the 70's which in real terms were far worse than what is happening now, it survived the 1991 gulf war,9/11, SARS and it will survive this current scenario whatever the gloom of the economists and the gleeful predictions of peak oil from the end of the world brigade. Whether any particular company will survive unscathed is another matter but hey, if you wanted a secure job for life you should have been an accountant or maybe a local government 'elf and safety inspector. Rich people will always travel.

[SpainFly]

Strange, I just three days ago received again a PM from the same Guy as before :rolleyes:

Hello ,

I am new also on pprune and this is my turn sorry for the late answer

Yes , they fired many pilots in the States but that was ( already ) 5 years ago and they reduce consequently salary during a long period .... they just rise the pay , last year ....

I got all those information from Lisbonnes but off course , i think you can verify that on archives of the Washington Post or Herald Tribune .

The main probleme of this system is because is base on a constant growing market . As soon as market reach saturation or slowing down , then you're in trouble . Because they don't do profit with hours of flight like any other company , they do profit by salling aircraft .

Even worse , NJE is one of the most expensive company regarding the cost by hour .... about 6000 euros for one hour of flight and the market is around 3000 euros/hours ....

So i think , the clash will come .... and personnaly i am on the way to move .... i don't want to be there at that time

Cheers .

[CL300]

This assesment is totally wrong and outdated, unfortunately i cannot comment on the real business plan, but you have to trust me on this, this contact is talking cheat...

What i can say though is that Netjets customers are only paying for occupied hours....ie they do not pay for the ferry, ( yes even on transatlantic)

[Sympo]

I may be mistaken, but whilst in BOD today I could have sworn I saw a 7X in the new NetJets scheme outside the Falcon factory, with another couple with it looking like they were just about to get painted?

[FormerFlake]

What i can say though is that Netjets customers are only paying for occupied hours....ie they do not pay for the ferry, ( yes even on transatlantic)


That depends on the contract:ugh: There are contracts where you do not pay for transatlantic ferries but on those contracts you pay all handling costs even in europe.

[B-767]

Well just got some news the other day that again I think should be available for everybody wanting to join or think that there is a future for you in the company....

Upgrades at least 18 months even if you have entered with 15K hrs +, they have a very long waiting list....
Fleet change to nice airplanes : time undetermined
Pension : none

Again BA, Airfrance and Lufthansa disadvantages without the advantages...think very wisely before you want to join....you will have a big salary cut and it wo'nt be for a couple of months.

To those who will come back and say it is not true....guess who will be telling the thruth?????

Again, nothing personal but just letting people know what they can expect...

All have a nice Sunday

[Taxi2parking]

I think you'll find that all the regular posters here that work for NetJets will and have been the first to agree that upgrade times have gone up. But as to comparing that to BA or Lufthansa etc....well I think there would be a great number of very happy SFOs if upgrade times went down to 18 months! Besides trust me when I say that 18 months is probably a much better period of time for someone to get comfortable in this type of operation before being launched alone and unafraid in the LHS.

Agree about the Pension - we have been very patient and they have let us down very badly. Still never give management the benefit of the doubt....as my old gran used to say.:}

[northern boy]

Pension is available if UK based, still trying to work through the complexities of a pan european system for everyone else. That is more due to the differing pension legislation across the EU than any dastardly conspiracy on the part of NJ management. Time to command is 18 months to 2 years depending on the economic outlook, just like everyone else. In the meantime "nice" aircraft are available to all unless you consider nice to be only over 136000kg in which case I wouldn't bother comming. No one joins for a particular type. Recruitment rumored to restart in the new year for those interested.

[SpainFly]

Heard a roumor that all Upgrades are getting cancelled. No more Captains required....

[south coast]

Spainfly, the rumour you have heard is incorrect.

It is true that upgrades are not going to be as quick as they used to be and people may have to wait longer before upgrading but it will still be quicker than any airline.

Crew are still being hired and the new planes on NJ's order books will need to be crewed, so the statement, 'NJ doesnt require captains is rather silly'.

[No RYR for me]

Looks like Spainfly is the new Smeagel but with a twist. Smeagel was able to talk about the time when he was at NetJets years ago but Spainfly is one big windup without any knowledge, not even outdated! :yuk:

Simple question Spainfly how will you crew 20+ new aircraft if you don't upgrade people to Captain and do not hire DEC's? :}

[Taxi2parking]

smeagol was also witty intelligent and well informed - unlike Spainfly:ugh:

[SpainFly]

No need to be offensive against me:bored:

What I can tell you that a friend of mine was scheduled for an UPG Course in Lisbon for end of september (or start of october, dont remember).

And he received an Email that his course is cancelled because of no need of captains for the time beeing !

[smallfry]

First I have heard of it... know some people running the upgrade sim and they are all still planning on being there!

The aeroplanes are still coming...

[doubleu-anker]

Taxi2parking

"smeagol was also witty intelligent and well informed - unlike Spainfly"

You are referring to smeagal in the past tense. Why? Is he no longer with us?

[Smeagel]

Nope.

As I'm really Mike Jenvey I've not been able to post since they banned him. I mean me. :E

[doubleu-anker]

HA HA Goodone!!

I knew you two were close but didn't realise you were that close.

Good to see you are still with us!:}

[CL300]

hmmmmm except IF mike has a way to post at FL410 above atlantic...AND if the time is correct 1531 ie 1631 uk time.. for the post...Smeagel is not mike. OR smeagel pm or better pin me your registration today, I'm the other captain in the crew room....

[Flintstone]

Never let it be said the French don't have a sense of humour eh? :rolleyes:

[CL300]

I luuuuve these threads... no pin yet :-)

[natops]

Its just not the same anymore without MJ. :\

But guys and girls, life goes on!

[C212-100]

Can I bother anyone and ask that anyone to post here the actual take home pay at the end of the month for a Junior FO at NETJETS?

I have tried to PM some of the well-informed members and no one seemed to be willing to help me.

I know there are a lot of threads out there on PPRUNE about that subject (I have looked at them, believe me) but none seems to give that answer...

I am flying for the Portuguese Air Force (a mere PIC and TRE on the C212) and will be making the move to the "civil world" in the first quarter of next year. In Portugal TAP is a wonderful employer to work for but I would simply prefer the Biz Jet world... Eventhough I would pretty much apprecciate a knowledge about the real take-home pay so that I can compare it to the on TAP offers. I know that it is not all about the money but we all have to be realistic, money is what makes the world go round... My choice is made but more info would be great.

Thank you all!

Best Regards!

[suchiman]

in Portugal, take home pay for FO about 3000e month.

[Flintstone]

You have mail.

[C212-100]

Flinstone,

You have mail.

Thanks.

[C212-100]

Suchiman,

A little less than I thought it would be...

Is that times 12 months or times 14 months as usual in other portuguese employers?

Thank you anyway.

Best regards.

[cldrvr]

14 months to the year, that explains why it all goes so slow down there!

[C212-100]

;)

There are other reasons for this beeing so slow down here. Trust me it goes further than that "detail" of the 14 months. :)

Greetings.

[mirandes]

14 months to the year, that explains why it all goes so slow down there!

At least with sun and not an island!!!

[Flintstone]

At least....not an island!


What's wrong with an island? You're not still huffy over that bit of business in 1588 (http://www.britainexpress.com/History/tudor/armada.htm) are you?


:E

[bArt2]

I am flying for the Portuguese Air Force (a mere PIC and TRE on the C212) and will be making the move to the "civil world" in the first quarter of next year.

In that case I would not wait too long before applying. I sent my application the 4th of januari and I am still waiting for an interview date.

Bart

[cleanthecockpit]

in Portugal, take home pay for FO about 3000e month.


from netjets europe website:
Starting basic salary for year 0 pilots
Rank Starting salary
Captain – PIC €95,000
First Officer – SIC €56,500

i understand 56500 as basic salary divided by 12 months...
56500:12=4708
plus per diem...
okay i know is tax free and i have to do all stuff like pension etc by myself...
so do i have to review my math skills?
please can someone tell me the truth about salary? i have the interview soon...
Ciao,
cleanthecockpit

[C212-100]

cleanthecockpit,

Those values, from what I understand, are not tax free. You must deduct from that value around 25% (NS and IRS).

Those would give around 3000ish...

GOod luck with the interview.

[CL300]

the figures are gross...
if not living in UK or Portugal, taxes are 20 percent for Income and around 5 to 8 for National insurance.

[south coast]

Also something to consider when it says 'Sarting salary', that will also be your final salary and salary all the way through your time at NetJets.

Currently, there is only an OECD average inflationary rise to employees salaries, so in actual fact when you become a captain and earn the E95,000 that it mentions, you will still earn E95,000 in five years time, but adjusted to take inflation into account only.

Be aware, currently, there is no actual salary INCREASE except for upgrading from a FO to a captain.

My intention is not to put potential people off NetJets, more to inform of the facts.

A FO residing in the UK could expect GBP 3,200 after tax + per diems (GBP 500-700 per month on average).

A captain residing in the UK could expect GBP 4,200 after tax + per diems (as above).

[Iver]

I am sure this is delicate topic but are NJE pilots ever tipped by passengers? I know you should not expect tips and you should not budget for tips, but does this ever happen? I know charter pilot in Germany (not NJE) who does make some tips from time to time.

[weido_salt]

Tips?

Hmm... Always a good idea to have a stock of brown envelopes, should the need arise. If a crew member wants to be blatant, envelopes my be placed on the passenger seats before departure.

Within certain cultures, it is seen as status to "throw money around". Try and be in the line of fire, should that happen.:}

[bArt2]

@ cleanthecockpit

i have the interview soon...

When did you get the interview date? I thought recruitment was on hold for the moment.

Thanks, Bart

[Moonwalker]

"Also something to consider when it says 'Sarting salary', that will also be your final salary and salary all the way through your time at NetJets."

...is this just a pure lie then??
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=s37af5kkt7wwbrenn4vkpephbh1mt7j6yh738ecpay9b bhmp76w

[CL300]

this grid applied a 2 per cent increase a year.. but this is speculation , since the salary increase is based on oecd inflation rate, if the rate is 4 per cent then salaries would (should) increase by 4 percent if let say 1.3 ..well.

Salary should not be reduced in case of deflation though.


Tips : we are not supposed to accept tips, if accepted should be send to the office, the same if a manufacturer is offering a airplane model for example.

[cleanthecockpit]

I thought recruitment was on hold for the moment.
Going slowly but still going...:)


Okay thanks all for infos... but i think that 3000eur is pessimistic...
i guess if you work 15day x month at 70eur xdiem would be 1050eur x 12 month=12600 year
plus 56500= 69100gross year... then minus taxes 28%= 49752year in your pocket.
49752:12= 4146eur monthly to be rough let's say 4000eur! it's 1000 more than someone declare... or not??

thank you in advance

clean.

[C212-100]

In my point of view and from my experience "per diem" should not be accounted for as real wage money. I believe that the decrease on the pilots salaries over the past 10 years is also connected to the point of view that "Per diem" is part of the package. It should not be. It is a money calculated for you have your meals when out on the job.

The major airlines paid that in envelopes. Once you arrive at the hotel of your night stop you will have an envelope with your "per diem" in.

Don't count on hat money. There are some cities where you will need more than those 70 Euro if you want to have 2 nice meals. Not luxurious, only nice.

Let us all not make our profession even less respected. Managements already don't think much of us...

Cheers.

[cleanthecockpit]

sorry i don't want to be rude but i'm working and i worked for some different airlines and believe me that lately (unfortunately) perdiem must be counted to rise the salary.
Honestly it's the first time i learn about perdiem in envelop at the hotel... but maybe i always worked for not very fair airlines... maybe...

Hola!
Clean.

[south coast]

Moonwalker, that grid no longer exists, there is only a starting salary of E95k followed by annual adjustments announced by the OECD.

There is no increase other than for inflation (which means that it is not actually a true increase leaving you with more money).

CL said, 'since the salary increase is based on oecd inflation rate' - CL, I really think you should stop calling it an increase, it is not an increase, it is an adjustment of your salary to make it have the same value as what your original salary was, ie. E95k.

In some cases, it may well turn out to be an actual pay rise, if you live in a country where the actual rate of inflation is lower than the OECD rate then it is a pay rise, but the reverse is also true, if you reside in a country where the inflation is greater than the OECD average, then it is a pay cut in real terms.

Obviously that is not the fault of NetJets, that is just the way NetJets do it.

[C212-100]

Clean,

I know what you are saying and I fully understand the problems with wages nowadays. What I was trying to say is that we all shall stop that by not accepting unfair deals. I know it is dificult (impossible, maybe...) but that should not prevent me from writing what I think is the right way to go.

Cheers.

[smallfry]

Rumour doing the rounds is that all Netjets Long Haul (NJI and NetJets Europe) could be put under one roof and separate from other wings...

[C212-100]

smallfry,

That rumour meaning...?

Share some thoughts.

Cheers

[Flintstone]

A merger of the long haul fleets wouldn't surprise me but I always said that NJE missed an opportunity when they started to build their long range fleet. They should have formed NJI(E) with separate Ops somewhere north of Lisbon thereby having the security of a parallel (more efficient) operation.

Too late now though.

[CL300]

SC, ok an adjustment, but besides very large companies and even so, this adjustment is not widespread. agree it is not the best but at least this one is cast in concrete. can be improved..:E

Enveloppes for per diem... EMirates for example has enveloppes with local money distributed to the crew.

Per diems....long story. Bottom line they are here and taxable, but do not count towards any pension :mad: or unemployement inurance :yuk: or loss of licence :ouch: therefore they are not salary...

[Craggenmore]

A FO residing in the UK could expect GBP 3,200 after tax + per diems (GBP 500-700 per month on average.)

So as a UK new recruit based at LHR (LGW as a second choice), I would earn £3700 to £4,000 after tax, all in?

Then, if you add one Optional Extra day's work at £435 per month and/or a Seasonal Optional Extra day's work at £554....that's an extra £989 gross on top (£700 after tax...)

So roughly £3800 to £4500 per month all in after tax. Am I correct (give or take an Optional Extra working day here or there.)

Plus NJ offers a CPS scheme, BUPA Health care, Medical and Uniform costs covered, legal protection and a pension to come. Paid per diem for training, standby and positioning. Holy smoke. What's not to like?

That's alright compared to a 2 year orange SFO who gets no BUPA or medical and uniform costs. Also earnings come in around £300 to £700 less, all in after tax.

How easy would it be to get LHR as a new recruit?

Do new recruits start short haul then move across to long-haul?

What is the wait to go long-haul?

Are people happy at NJ?

Cheers, Craggs

[navoff]

FO take home pay after tax is more like £2500. Per diems average around 800 to 1000 euro, but this is very much based on how much you are used.

Navoff

[Flintstone]

How easy would it be to get LHR as a new recruit?

Do new recruits start short haul then move across to long-haul?

What is the wait to go long-haul?

Are people happy at NJ?

Cheers, Craggs


Shall I be the one to write what everyone else here is thinking? :O

Search>Bizjet Forum>Netjets.

Trust me, it's all been asked before.:ok:

[flyheadsup]

Any news or updates on when NJE is starting to do all those phone calls again?
Or is recruitment is still ongoing, anybody willing to share any experience?
Maybe it is just me losing patience...

[Craggenmore]

Shall I be the one to write what everyone else here is thinking?

Search>Bizjet Forum>Netjets.

In the time it took you to type that you could have typed Easy, Yes, 2 years and Yes.

Oh well, I'll search over 2000 irrelevant and out of date posts. A weeks a long time in aviation.

[smallfry]

yes - the gateway is your choice
depends... as a FO it might be immediately. as a Captain, about 5 years
yes

[Craggenmore]

Thank you smallfry. Have a good weekend :ok:

[Flintstone]

In the time it took you to type that you could have typed Easy, Yes, 2 years and Yes.

Oh well, I'll search over 2000 irrelevant and out of date posts. A weeks a long time in aviation.


You'd also have gleaned a wealth of other information too. You wouldn't believe how many questions have been asked and answered on NJE. History's as useful as current information especially at NJE.

Thought I was doing you a favour, sorry if that wasn't helpful enough.

[smallfry]

Just so that its clear, Flintstone is right. You would learn a lot from doing the search.

To begin with you would understand the Gateway system and would have not asked that question. Times to upgrade and change fleet have increased of the years, but all the other stuff is useful. But just so you dont have to spend all that precious time of yours

Terms and conditions have improved over the last two years, but there is still room for further improvement. There will always be in every company people who complain, and others that are blinded by the bright lights. Find the middle path, and thats about right. The roster is stable, the flying different, the hours on average less than any airline. Salary is paid on time and most expenses (uniforms, hotels, training, medical, licence etc) are met. Pension and other benefits are still being 'tweeked' to put it politely. Lots of people in the company trying to improve things. But some mountains are slow to move. SOP's and publications constantly evolving and hopefully each an improvement. There are still lots of aircraft arriving, and still lots on order. The fabled 7x and the 4000 are arriving soon. There is still growth, although flying has slowed a bit recently, the recession has had an effect on us.

If anyone thinks that they are going to walk into NetJets, choose the G5 or 7x and get a command in 6 weeks, well, thats not very likely! But remember that there are now approximately 1200 pilots, 160 aircraft. We are almost in the 'major' category now! You wouldn't expect a command or a long haul aircraft in a major, why here? Just remember, with the growth, you will have the opportunity, if you have the right stuff, in a couple of years. Try that in a big airline.

If you consider biz-jets to be a stepping stone to the airlines, or that biz jets are inferior to a boeing/airbus/embraer, well, only in max weight. Our avionics and performance (particularly on the falcons and gulfstreams) is as good as it gets. Not many airliners have EVS and HUD.

NetJets is a challenging place to work, for many reasons, and it is not for everyone. But the rewards if you like it are good.

Bored now.

[Taxi2parking]

....and lets not forget our new set of very cool FTLs:ok:!

[natops]

Just heard the 'rumour' that NJE is planning only 2 indocs (sofar) for next year.
(again people, it really could be a rumour!)

Anyone heard something similar?

Another 2 months and first cadets will come in. They will be in linetraining from January09 on. Looking forward!

N.:ok:

[Flintstone]

'Nail-on-the-head-stuff'............Bored now.



Play with your Blackberry ;)

[smallfry]

i think i broke that as well
:}

[Craggenmore]

You'd also have gleaned a wealth of other information too

I agree with you Flinstone and if the need arises, of course I will search back over time (like I've been doing on this site since 2002,) but at the moment I only wanted quick answers to the 4 particular questions I asked. But thanks for the tip about NJ's history's being as useful as current information.

smallfry, I'm not sure if you were directing your entire answer at me because I did not ask for such a thing, but I have to say a big thankyou for taking the time to provide the forum and I with such a great up-to-date account of life at NJ.

Cheers, Craggs :)

[The Beer Hunter]

Some people just couldn't say sorry if their life depended on it.

Craggenmore. You got snippy at someone who was helping you out. Someone who has done me immense favours and to my knowledge has assisted dozens of wannabees and unemployed pilots for no personal gain. A long standing member of PPRuNe who has been helping others out for years.

At least have the decency to apologise.