Beached Dolphins

[Mr-AEO]

Hmm, anything to do with the use of Flash off Cornwall by you peeps operating Merlins from Culdrose?:}

"There's a lot of interest in this latest case in Cornwall because there hasn't been a mass stranding of dolphins since the use of sonar," he says. The last major stranding (of pilot whales which are in the same toothed whale group as dolphins) was in 1981. So could it be a rare example of dolphins being disoriented by sonar?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7446348.stm

[CrazyMonkey]

Dunno. Wait until the post-mortem results are out before casting blame at the MOD.

[waterhorse]

fair comment
bit of a coincidence though wouldn't you say

[Eagle402]

Crazy Monkey,

Just what are you expecting from said 'post mortem'?! Even if they were related to the legendary Flipper I doubt they can speak from their watery grave and ident the frequency they were accidentally vectored onto !

Eagle402

[waterhorse]

thats what they use science for
and they are not in a watery grave - didn't u see them on the news all lined up on the river bank - very sad
experts think that they might all have followed one wounded animal in which put in a distress call.
the other theory was that there was inteference with their radar and the navy had been firing underwater in the area up until sunday evening which has been indicated as a possible cause of inteference
can't be ruled out I suppose.
damn shame though.

[Eagle402]

Waterhorse,

Yes I did see the poor beasts lined up on the bank and a very sad sight it was too. I wasn't trying to make light of their plight or indeed the whole LFA debate, I was simply questioning what on earth a post portem could prove/disprove in the sonar line.

Regards,

Eagle402

[waterhorse]

post mortem probably couldn't prove a lot - but science is an amazing thing and something has to be done.
my husband upset my daughter earlier when he asked if they could be eaten - so as not to go to waste - didn't go down too well.
needless to say we are not speaking to him either so don't feel too bad!!!!!!!!!

[CrazyMonkey]

Eagle402

Don't get me wrong, this is most probably the direct result of human activity. Possibly military sonar ops. It could also be due to several of the animals having either a virus or some desease that affected their echo location. Maybe wee Flipper was having a tangle with Orca.

It's a shame that the inhumane and pointless bloody slaughter of whales and Dolphins by Japan (and Faroe Islands) doesn't make the headlines as much as this (accidental) event which immediately blames the MOD. Albeit on our shores.

CM

[waterhorse]

crazy monkey
you're right culling of whales, dolphins, seals is sickening
this is just so sad because of the way it happened if u see what I mean
I'm lucky enough to live in an area where u can see dolphins - they are amazing and very smart - but still susceptible to these sort of tragedies which I'm sure were influenced by man's inteference in their world.

[waterhorse]

not really just find these things sad
don't you

[Eagle402]

AIDU,

My rhyme was purely accidental! As for stuffing whales - rather than you than me amigo, that's a lot of Paxo !

On a more prosaic note - I'm amazed we have not had the 'guard police' vigilantes over to this thread as a result of the comment regarding one of the dolphins's "distress signal"!

Eagle402.

[Mr-AEO]

I'd be surprised if it was the UK MOD because we can't fart these days without written approval; translated, restrictions have been in place on MOD sonar ops for while to prevent this very thing which is about as much as can be said on public forums.

Suffice to say, I actually think that BBC are barking up the wrong tree. My comment was tongue in cheek, but perhaps it touched nerves....

[MReyn24050]

Perhaps they were following their Sat Nav.

[Razor61]

Post Mortems were done today and revealed nothing. This conclusion was the direct result in the MoD being 'possibly' to blame.

We all know FOST and other exercises take place off the coast of Falmouth and all up the Devon/Cornwall south coastline. It is plausable Sonar or (as said on local TV news) underwater detonations scared the dolphins senseless.

Will be interesting to see the MoD statement tomorrow or sometime this week.

Certainly a sad sight to see...

[Mr-AEO]

Certainly a sad sight to see....

Agreed m8.

[AR1]

I was going to try something along the lines of the Navy & I-PODs - but it wouldn't work..

[ORAC]

Would that be something to do with Tunes helping them breath more easily?.....

[bayete]

The South Africans like stuffing Wales:E

[aviate1138]

What happened during the second world war when mines and bombs were going off all along the channel coasts? There were apparently more fish and more dolphins then and food was in short supply. Did anyone harvest what must have presumably been a massive catch?

The human mind will take the minutest possibility of a connection and prefer that to a

more logical and simpler solution [Occam's Razor notwithstanding]

Conspiracy theories were ever thus.

[RolyFirkinQC]

I live there and one of the rumours is that they were chasing a school of herring up the river, which is narrow and shallow, and got themselves disorientated.

[diginagain]

That's just a rumour being pushed out by RN media ops.

A red herring.

[nunquamparatus]

Ask someone who knows (fish-head) - what happens when you turn on the sonar in a warship. The usual answer is that every dolphin within a 4 million mile (slight exaggeration) radius comes swimming over to have a listen to your 2050. Thats right, swim towards, not run away in a mad panic. They seem to love the sound of it, or are at least very curious. So unless there was a Type 23 stuck halfway up the Fal estuary (with navigators anythings possible) or a Merlin in the dip (ie, airborne) halfway up the river, the theory of sonar being responsible seems to me to be a load of old cod. But what would I know, I'm not a sensationalist journalist or a tree-hugging member of save the cetations, just a filthy warfare officer. Dolphins and whales have been beaching themselves as long as people can remember - indeed many species of dolphin and camera flirty orca intentionally swim into very shallow water in order to catch fish or pinipeds (technical term for Seal). Guess they didn't have a copy of the tide tables.............

Anyone notice a surge of 'Fresh Tuna' on the menu in Falmouth?

[diginagain]

Anyone notice a surge of 'Fresh Tuna' on the menu in Falmouth?

Not yet, but the Corns can turn their hands to most things.

[Razor61]

The latest:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7445786.stm

Tells of how Sonar around the world has caused various strandings and that the Dolphins were stranded in two river estuaries 9 miles apart.

MoD originally stated they had no warships in the area but then admitted they were carrying out a survey when the strandings happened.

[nunquamparatus]

So Razor, you are suggesting that because the RN was using the side-scanning sonar to survey Falmouth Bay that all these Striped Dolphins decided to commit seppuku up the Fal Estuary? Do you think this is the first time the Hydrographers have used this bit of kit? How do you think all those charts (maps of the sea for non-fishy types) get made? The RN and other mariners around the world have been surveying the oceans with sonar for decades - in fact its a non-stop job around the UK. I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere would have noticed hordes of cetations topping themselves on a daily basis...............

Frankly, no-one will ever know what caused these poor creatures to get stuck up the river - its always upsetting to see a beautiful animal die in such circumstances. But don't fall foul of the rumour merchants that will have you believe that it was some response to a droggy carrying out his job. Unless of course it was HMS SCOTT, in which case they would be deep fried:E:{

[diginagain]

Mother Nature can indeed show herself to be cruel at times.

Hence ginger hair.

[Razor61]

It clearly states bbc.co.uk which says it all, read it, you might realise this instead of thinking i said it.
I was posting the updated bbc news link. So i did not suggest anything did i?

:hmm:

[nunquamparatus]

Oh, apologies, must be me being pedantic:mad:

[doubledolphins]

Out of respect for the family I will make no further comment except that it is highly unlikely that the RN caused this.

[GreenKnight121]

Of course, there have been mass strandings of cetaceans (dolphins, whales, etc) for thousands of years... many of larger numbers, and recorded in human writings of the times.

It is a peculiar conceit of modern enviro-compulsives to attribute long-standing naturally-occurring events to "could only have been caused by Human activities".

[nunquamparatus]

GK, Thanks for that, now I know how to spell ceteceans properly...........:ok:

[Razor61]

MoD have released their statement into the stranding of the Dolphins.

From the MoD Website:-
Claims dolphin deaths are linked to Royal Navy
Reports continue that the Royal Navy may be to blame for the death of over 20 dolphins near Cornwall. The Royal Navy have investigated the reports associated with this incident and believe that it is extremely unlikely that any Royal Navy activity resulted in the unfortunate stranding of the dolphins.

The last Naval gunnery took place three days before, 60 miles away and the only sonar transmissions were undertaken at least 12 nautical miles off the coastline using low power, short range equipment. No Royal Navy vessel in the South West had been using low frequency sonar. It has also been confirmed that a submarine had been on exercise in the area recently, but its sonar was not transmitting.

A survey vessel had been undertaking low power, high frequency, short range sonar transmissions of existing in-service equipment, at least 12 nautical miles from the South West coast and had been using echo sounders, again operating at high frequencies, as used by many vessels throughout the world to detect the depth of water beneath their hull. It is highly unlikely that these transmissions would have contributed to the stranding of the dolphins.

The last live munitions firings by the Royal Navy in the South West Areas prior to the stranding incident took place to the South of Plymouth on Friday 6 June, 60 nautical miles from Falmouth. These live firings were routine training. We have been conducting this training on a regular basis for many years and there has been no association between this activity and the stranding of mammals. It is considered highly unlikely that this activity could have been responsible for the disorientation of the mammals.

A RN spokesman said: "There has been no evidence of any of our vessels' sonar ever playing a part in beaching incidents like this. The Royal Navy takes take its environmental responsibilities very seriously and always carry out environmental assessments before putting energy in the water."

[kluge]

"carry out environmental assessments before putting energy in the water"

Someones been getting ideas from the Meaningless Management Drivel thread.

[Union Jack]

Nunquam

Thanks for that, now I know how to spell ceteceans properly......:ok:

No, sadly you don't!:)

Jack

[x213a]

Nunquam is quite correct. Emcon plans,radhaz, casex briefs etc are very comprehensive. and to elaborate or explain more would be beadwindow territory.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

nunquamparatus. So it's not droggies in diving suits with waterproof theodolites? I will never view a chart in the same light again. :}

[x213a]

I blame a wren with a particulary harsh voice operating underwater telephone:}

Surely there must be some puns about I-pods of dolphins??

[Dan D'air]

x213a, I am pretty sure that it's not the Navy's fault, although if it is, I bet that they wouldn't have done it on porpoise.

[Green Flash]

The South Africans like stuffing Wales

I thought a Wales was stuffing a South African?:E:ok:

(Yes I know, she's from Zim)

That's me in the Tower, then.

[Dan D'air]

Hung, drawn and quartered. But fret thee not, it's all Beatriz Fontana's fault, the dolphin murdering pikey.

[ZH875]

Did they find any traces of Illegal Immigrants or bogus Asylum seekers living inside the dolphins?

[diginagain]

Did they find any traces of Illegal Immigrants or bogus Asylum seekers living inside the dolphins?

What, trying to get into Cornwall?:)

To quote the County's second motto; "Bloody Emmetts"

[Matt Skrossa]

Presumably as we have already 'dolphin friendly tuna' we can now have 'tuna friendly dolphin' i.e. no tuna were killed in this incident?

[chris_tivver]

Logic:
Dolphins use sonar to navigate
Sonar has been operating near previous strandings therefore sonar was to blame
The Navy use sonar therefore the Navy is to blame.

As was said earlier Dolphins are often atttacted to sonar, whether it be warships, yachts or fishing boats. Indeed they are also attracted to humans and boats generally.

So why has no journalist considered the distinct possibility that dolphins were attracted to the fish-finding sonar of a fisghing boat (they aren't stupid you know). Said boat forgot to turn off the sonar when it quit for home. As a result the doplhins continued to follow until...

That is far more plausible than the Navy causing it but of course doesn't fit with the prejudices of certain lobby groups or sloppy journalism. p.s. I am not suggesting that my explanation is definitely correct, just that it is more plausible than blame the RN

[Beatriz Fontana]

Oi D'air, shush!

It's the trawlers and the killer whales! Everyone knows that Cornwall and Wales have a mutual hatred. Something to do with an old Celtic language :)

[Double Zero]

I have no real, proven clues as to Sonar V Dolphins; but on several times in the past, I've seen Dolphins in the near distance, off Jersey and Plymouth for a start.

On each occasion when I turned on the depth sounder ( not Sonar ) the animals homed straight in on my boat to formate within 2-3' - have photo's to prove it...

So I'd go along with the theory that Sonar / undersea systems might be the cause, though there are probably other environmental factors as well.

[nunquamparatus]

Double Zero,

Thats my point. If the RN droggies (who were twelve miles out to sea) were supposedly the ones spooking the ex-dolphins with piddly side-scanning sonar, the silly bloody things wouldn't be stuck in someone's freezer, they'd be following HMS ECHOSOUNDER around clicking "where's my tea you b*stards". Sonar ATTRACTS dolphins, it doesn't scare them. Unless its the mahoosively powerful LF one that the Yanks sometimes turn on in California.......result, dead whales in Japan. None of ours have anywhere near the power, its hard enough getting your sodding iron to warm up on board, let alone power some under-water laser deathray weapon.:ugh:

[nunquamparatus]

And your point?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Apparently cockles are dying off in Wales now. Is the Royal Navy going to get the blame for that, too??

(Naturally, the fishermen want compensation)

[Double Zero]

I'm sure the fishermen will be after compensation; it's become the easiest way to 'earn' money in the U.K, see the various ad's for " ambulance chasing lawyers direct ".

What sort of fisherman picks up cockles from a beach ?

When I was on my Yachtmaster Offshore course ( funded by BAe probably just to shut me up ) we had a fisherman type with us doing ' Coastal Skipper' - we had to use force to prevent him throwing cans, plastic etc overboard - on another occasion I unfortunately sailed in the wake of a fishing boat around Portland Bill, with dozens of gulls taken out by shotgun !

It's interesting that UK fishing boats are generally very badly maintained, while those in 'poorer' countries are treated as one of the family...

[skydriller]

If the RN droggies (who were twelve miles out to sea) were supposedly the ones spooking the ex-dolphins with piddly side-scanning sonar, the silly bloody things wouldn't be stuck in someone's freezer, they'd be following HMS ECHOSOUNDER around clicking "where's my tea you b*stards". Sonar ATTRACTS dolphins, it doesn't scare them.

Has anyone tried telling the Meeja this?

:hmm:

[spheroid]

depth sounder ( not Sonar )

If a Depth Sounder isn't Sonar then what is it?

[Double Zero]

" If a depth sounder isn't Sonar what is it ? " - well there are various types of sounder, some like mine just work straight down like a Radalt / WW2 Asdic, while fishfinders, forward looking Sonar ( FLS, to try to avoid steering into shallows or cliffs ) and true SONAR will provide a wide scan undersea charting capability.

BTW my feeble little depth sounder was once good enough to detect a sub' trying to hide underneath us in a NATO exercise - we were motoring in a calm, mid English Channel, the ships and helo's had detected him alright and dropped smoke floats, but were kind enough not to use depth charges or torpedos ! I cottoned on, and our depth reading went from 60 fathoms ( old money ) to 20 as the crafty git tried to hide under our diesel sound...

I'd rather have Dolphins in company any day - though I did once have a girlfriend who was in danger of being chased by Japanese fishermen.