View Full Version : Saudi Arabian Recruitment 747 classics
Dear Fellow pilots,
Saudi Arabian are recruiting F/O's for the 747 classic fleet.....Any advice from pilots flying out there in Saudi, or who have had experiences, good or bad? How is the CRM in the company?
Cheers!
How is the CRM in the company? What a strange question.... I would have thought that questions about destinations, layovers, rosters, roster stability, training, housing, salary etc would be more important..... Guess that i was wrong :)
Mutt
well, you have an interesting point. But for me, those are secondary matters. What really matters are the people whom i may be working with and the atmosphere which they have/create as flight crew.
wonder
6th Jun 2008, 18:29
I guess CRM does not exist over there.
I guess CRM does not exist over there How did you come to that conclusion?
MMS, with over 300 crew on that fleet alone, you will find all kinds of attitudes :) But the easy answer is that if you are that concerned about who you will work with, then dont apply, the job isnt for you.
Mutt
hjmemon
7th Jun 2008, 06:46
Hi MMS,
I would like to know where and how can I apply to Saudi?
Thanks
As a 19 year old foreign national, you cant apply to them. Sorry but you dont meet the requirements.
Mutt
hjmemon
7th Jun 2008, 13:07
Well, I know its bit silly but I was asking it on my dad's behalf, (Also a Pilot, current on 747 Classics and more than 14000 Total time).
I shall appreciate if any one can give the contact info for applying in SV.
Thanks
http://sv.net/apps/rec/FO_default.asp
Mutt
piloton
7th Jun 2008, 19:06
I was an F/O on the MD-11 with Saudia, the first 8 months were like what am I doing here, but i can tell you one thing.... it has been the best job of my life, the Saudis are different but once they get to know you they will give you their own food plate.
why I left was just because there are no upgrades if you join as an F/O and the compound it's like a ghost town specially if you have children, but overall was a very very good experience, specially if you know MUTT....:ok:
its very pleasent to hear of good experiences! Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts!
The recruitment advert is on their website.
:ok:
metro301
9th Jun 2008, 01:23
They now have karate, swimming lessons and baseball for the kids. If they are still young there is a playschool in the compound. My 4 1/2 year old is loving it. Teenagers may be a tougher issue though.
Everyone is different but the positives far outweigh the negatives for my family and I.
bumba
14th Feb 2010, 11:12
... anybody knows if they are hiring right now and can somebody confirm there is no up-grade to CPT if you join as FO? thanks
Hiring = Only for A320 left seat and corporate both seats.
Upgrade to Captain......... umm, it happens in line with seniority but with 900 in the list ahead you it will take a long long time...... Plus when you time comes, there is no guarantee that they wont pick a national instead of you..
Mutt
Samiadam
15th Feb 2010, 04:13
Let me tell you one thing. Saudia is fair in the way it deals with many pilots from different nationalties. When, the time comes for upgrade and by the way, that wont happen before ten years, they will make an evaluation to you. If you have good knowledge and attitude, they will upgrade you. If not , they will keep you a FO on 747 as they did with so many who dont deserve to be commanders.
cheers
sami
Samiadam
16th Feb 2010, 05:21
i disagree with you mutt. based on seniorty when the time comes( in Saudia its about 10 yrs), they will make an evaluation regardless of nationality and if he passes , he will start his upgrade training at thier local training centre. just like how they did an evaluation to many foreign FOs on 741 and many of them failed. however two of them passed. at the end, not everyone can be a commander. right
sami
thlokaka
12th Mar 2010, 15:37
i hope i amnot too late answering you questions
regarding the CRM ... the company is trying really hard on every aspect to have that running in the cockpit and it is running i would say up to 80%
for upgrade as colleages said above it is seniority BUT the policy says upon OPERATION REQUIREMENT
and beleive me we have so many nonsaudis they were FO and now the are captains and i know some of them being with the company for more than 20 years I AM SERIOUS
i am FO on B747 right now and i am telling you truth from inside with all respects to some who said negative things
i hope i was a little help to you
wish you the best always
SAUDIA is expanding hugely and will always need crew
FO B747 CLASSIC
Samiadam
13th Mar 2010, 05:55
Saudia is not really expanding. They are grounding thier 747s C and Md 90s. Its really just a fleet renewal with no expansion.
Sam
Its really just a fleet renewal with no expansion.
grounding 44 aircraft, introducing 82 aircraft.......and thats before cargo starts its replacement program.... wouldn't you consider that an expansion?
mutt
Cessna5370M
13th Mar 2010, 09:28
grounding 44 aircraft, introducing 82 aircraft.......and thats before cargo starts its replacement program.... wouldn't you consider that an expansion?
NICE ONE!!!
Samiadam
13th Mar 2010, 12:03
29 MD 90 = phasing out
23 B747s = phasing out
11 A300 = phasing out
Total 63 aircraft to be phased out
Scheduled deliveries for Saudia are
50 A320s
8 A330s
12 B787s
Total 70
70-63 = 7 Don’t know if you would consider that an expansion or a fleet renewal.
sam
The A300 ceased operations years ago and therefore cannot be considered in the present phase out program, they don't have 23 B747 aircraft classic aircraft in the airline.
The number of aircraft on order is more than 70.
You should adjust your figures accordingly.
Mutt
BadAndy
13th Mar 2010, 17:25
Mutt,
Have you heard anything about no more ex-pat Captain hires? There is a wild rumor flying around about it, and I haven't been able to get a definitive answer either way from anyone... Heard the MD-90 phase-out was being accelerated. Any truth to that?
upspeed
13th Mar 2010, 22:31
Does anyone know if they hire female FO's?
Cheers
metro301
14th Mar 2010, 06:06
Upspeed
No, they do not, at least they never have.
The original MD90 phase out was scheduled to finish in 2014 due to the arrival rate of the A320, but once they accelerated the deliveries it also impacted the MD90 phase out. As for recruitment, I don't know the answer, but were the original recruitment figures based on the old or new phase out schedules? Or were they based on a 30 year old TWA crewing formula rather than the crewing levels required by the new rostering system?
upspeed, lots of females flying for Saudia through ACMI airlines, but none in the parent company.
Some may have missed this article yesterday..... its interesting....
Arab News - 13 March, 2010
Author: Tariq A. Al-Maeena
Skytrax, an aviation standards monitoring agency, has published its World Top 10 Airlines in 2009. Among the airlines surveyed were carriers from all continents of the globe.
The survey methodology, widely accepted by all leading airlines, was operated over an 8-month period (August 2008 to March 2009), during which time 16.2 million air travelers completed a wide range of survey nominations for the Airline of the Year title, along with regional and other award categories.
The survey data was collated from a variety of input sources, including passenger interviews completed online and via e-mail, business research group/travel panel interviews, corporate travel questionnaire/interviews, telephone interviews and selective passenger surveys.
The Gulf carriers such as Etihad and Qatar Airways, new entrants to the field, figured prominently in the list, led by Emirates who's been in the business slightly longer. These airlines figured prominently in the Top 10 by virtue of their consistent commitment to excellence. For the record, Emirates is 25 years old, Qatar Airways 17 years, and Etihad an airline barely 7 years in operation.
But what of the heavyweight in the region, Saudi Arabian Airlines, our national carrier with over 64 years in service? An airline seemingly destined for success by virtue of a budget generously provided by the government, an enviously guaranteed annual market in Haj and Umrah traffic, and a population size that would easily engulf the rest of the GCC several times over.
Sadly, there were no accolades for Saudia in the recent survey. Why, one wonders. Why should this carrier not have figured among the Top 30 if not the Top 10?
While it took a relatively short time, plenty of investment and lots of hard work for the featured GCC countries to build their modern aviation infrastructure, Saudia seems to have chosen to take several steps backward.
A privatization plan, initially announced in the early 1990s was allowed to meander aimlessly in the following years. Some would say this was part of a concerted plan to continue milking the corporate cow. And in the years of the preceding CEO at the helm of the airline, the organization took the form of a country club where entry to executive levels was granted not on one's professional abilities, but rather on how strong their connections were.
Key positions were staffed by individuals with very little knowledge of global aviation strategy or customer service, a primary indicator of the airline's health.
They were simply public servants who manipulated the organization's manuals of procedures and benefits to extract the most for themselves, at the cost to their customers. After all, money from the government was flowing in on an annual basis, and thus the "abhorrent" concept of privatization was relegated to an afterthought.
Accountability did not exist, and the organization was run much like what we have witnessed recently with our municipality in the wake of the floods. In the midst of such a corrosive corporate identity, some of the conscientious elements within the organization chose to either leave or not participate in such a caustic atmosphere.
As a result, morale sank to a noticeable low, leading to poor service across the organization.
Things haven't changed much since the new CEO took over a few years ago. The one noticeable effect was that there was a spurt of promotions at key levels of the very individuals who contributed to the downward slide. Reward for good work seems to be an alien culture in this airline.
Accountability still remains unfamiliar, while executives increase their perks at the expense of the paying public. Morale among the staff has sunk deeper today, and while some progress has been made on the privatization front, it certainly does not make up for an attractive investment.
Talk to any senior executive in this airline and he will readily sound off on how glorious his organization is. But talk to the staff and you hear a totally different story.
Or better yet, try your hand at the simple task of booking a seat, or having your flight leave on time.
Surveys such as those published by Skytrax are a valuable tool of letting airline professionals know their place among their peers, and strive to improve. With Saudia, such assessments are best relegated to the dustbin. After all, why kill the cash cow?
It's worth noting that this jounalist was Sr. Mgr-System Maintenance International Opns. Saudi Arabian Airlines before his retirement in 2008.
Mutt
upspeed
14th Mar 2010, 19:01
Thanks for the info Mutt and Metro!
Fly safe!
Desert Diner
15th Mar 2010, 03:14
an enviously guaranteed annual market in Haj and Umrah traffic, and a population size that would easily engulf the rest of the GCC several times over.
Not a fair critisism on Saudia.
It's easy enough to "excel" when your market is limited to hand picked International flights like EK, QR and EY. Different story where the bulk of your operations are domestic and Haj related. Never mind about the other "issues"
chuckunu
16th Mar 2010, 17:35
Other Issues????? what are those Issues?
jumbocpt
18th Mar 2010, 14:39
HI Mutt;
what's the plan for the B-744? I've been gone from the airline for awhile. Just curious. thank you.
J
Understand they are being reconfigured for Asia and sticking around for a while... but thats this weeks rumor, last weeks was that they going to the corporate fleet :):)
Mutt
jumbocpt
19th Mar 2010, 14:02
After many years in JED/Saudia; not much surprises me anymore. Capt M is nearly finished with his final checkout. He mentioned in a passing email that he was offered a one year contract if he wished to stay at the same pay and benefits. He will be 64 in May. So, perhaps, the '400' is short of crew. Well anyway, thanks for your news and updates.
J
SassyPilotsWife
20th Mar 2010, 09:04
Mutt,
I began reading this thread and saw where Saudia was looking for classic 747 FO's, i advised my husband and quickly visualized buying an abaya and boxing up the villa then realized the post was from back in 08. However when clicking on the link you posted, it still shows they are looking for these same FO's but you're saying now they are only looking for A320 ? I wasn't sure why the link was still good. When i go to the website via google search it is there that it now only shows A320 Capt. recruitment. Oh well.. wishful thinking.
SassyPilotsWife,
No more 747 recruitment, they stopped the last class prior to their arrival due to an increase in the fleet planning schedule to phase the aircraft out of service...
But if you want to work in Jeddah that badly and hubby has the right type of personality, send a resume to the corporate side of the airline. They are seeking crews for the F7X and H400.
Mutt
slatanmhor
20th Mar 2010, 19:05
Hey Mutt,
So they are no longer recruiting for 747-400, eh?
I am non rated on type but am hoping to find an airline willing to take on non rated experienced pilots for training on the 74-400.(I have 2000 hrs F100).
Whats the beef re Saudi recruitment in general? Are they willing to take on non rated people for any of their aircraft??? I see they taking on a320s shortly...
Thanks man....D:ok:
They never hired for the 747-400, thats a desirable aircraft :) Only for the Classic......
They take non type rated people, bond them, type them and generally lose them once they stay long enough to get the bond back.
Mutt
Just to follow on from the article stating that nothing was happening...... :):) Now its time to hold to your seat and enjoy the ride :):)
JEDDAH: Saudi Arabian Airlines signed five landmark agreements Sunday to privatize its core aviation unit, establish a new company for ground services at all Saudi airports, finance its new fleet of aircraft and manage the IPO of its catering company.
The agreements were signed in the presence of Crown Prince Sultan, deputy premier and minister of defense and aviation, and chairman of the board of directors of Saudi Airlines during a ceremony in Riyadh.
Prince Sultan commended the national carrier’s achievements in terms of privatizing key sectors, improving services and transporting a record number of passengers and pilgrims. He urged Saudia officials to exert greater efforts in the service of citizens and the guests of God who come for Haj and Umrah.
Khaled Al-Molhem, director general of the airline, said the new privatization agreements with Saudi and foreign companies were signed on the basis of a strategic plan, adding that it would improve the performance and services of the airline’s different sectors.
The Supreme Economic Council, which is chaired by Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah, has approved the airline’s privatization program. Al-Molhem said the privatization would strengthen the Kingdom’s air transport industry and services. “The plan also envisions making Saudi Arabia the main center for commercial aircraft maintenance in the Middle East,” he said. Saudia’s privatization plan aims to cope with the tremendous progress achieved by the Kingdom in different economic sectors.
The first agreement, which was signed Sunday, aims to merge Saudi Airlines Ground Services Company with National Handling Services Company and Attar Ground Services Company to form a new company to provide ground services in all of the Kingdom’s airports.
The second consultancy agreement with Samba Financial Group and BNP Paribas is to finance the airline’s new fleet of aircraft. The third accord was with Al-Ahli Capital and Morgan Stanley to privatize the core aviation unit while the fourth agreement was with Calyon Saudi Fransi to float part of Saudi Arabian Airlines Catering Company’s shares for public subscription. The fifth agreement aims at developing aircraft maintenance facilities at King Abdulaziz Airport in Jeddah.
Prince Sultan later chaired a meeting of the airline’s board of directors where Al-Molhem explained the measures taken by the management to privatize the organization’s strategic units. He said the airline’s revenue rose by nine percent in 2009 to reach SR18.15 billion, registering an increase of over SR1.5 billion compared to 2008 results.
They take non type rated people, bond them, type them and generally lose them once they stay long enough to get the bond back.
This has been largly true in the past, with exceptions.
Some of the finest training I received at SVA came from 'displaced' Lockheed and TWA guys on the L1011.
Absolutely first rate, bar none.
SVA is not for everyone, however...if you stay for awhile (and NOT make a nuisance of yourself)...the salary can be first rate, and you smile at your bank book, every month.
Not a bad gig for those that can accomodate...and accept the...unusual.
jumbocpt
23rd Mar 2010, 13:44
I've heard rumors that the pilots are being presented with a new contract at a greatly reduced base salary, reduced travel benefits and no outside insurance, not to mention finding housing on your own.
That's a huge change if it's true!
metro301
24th Mar 2010, 21:11
I doubt it is all true.
There are only a few compounds left in Jeddah that can accept westerners (security reasons). Saudia city being one of them.
They just increased the base pay last year or the year before, rolled in the end of service benefit. As you know nothing happens fast, for the base pay to be cut so soon, it sounds unrealistic.
Insurance - possible. Hope not. North Americans are the only ones that get the outside insurance. We pay for it with reduced life insurance and reduced loss of medical insurance benefits compared to other nationalities.
Travel - possible. The expats already get pretty poor travel benefits compared to the locals. For example, they get ID85's positive space. Expats get ID50's positive space.
introducing 82 aircraft Make that 94 aircraft with the announcement of the 777-300s........
1st A330 will be delivered this week, ash permitting..... as will another A320, the 1st Falcon 7X and the 6th Hawker 400.
Also introduced the Amadeus passenger management system, with Sabre Aircrews due for introduction on the 1st May.
Any truth in the rumor that 400 airline managers were ordered to undergo a managerial assessment with a view to only keeping 90 of them???
Its going to be a fun summer :)
Mutt
EY763ER
21st Apr 2010, 06:09
great news about the 777-300! it will be a beautiful a/c with an excellent livery!
Hey Mutt,
I guess those are the 12 unidentified 777's on the Boeing web site? :ok:
EY763ER
21st Apr 2010, 08:13
Hi Mutt,
i am supposing that these B773 have been ordered to replace the B743 fleet? or are these B773 for the airlines expansion plans?
also, when is the expected delivery ~2012?
cheers!
jetflyger
21st Apr 2010, 23:15
50 A320's
8 A330's
12 B777's
did u include the 'little' planes as well ;-)
Considering that the small ones will require about 40 pilots to fly them, I consider their addition pertinent :):)
Mutt
cantbeafoolinlove
22nd Apr 2010, 13:21
Hey mutt (or anyone else),
Sorry for being little off the topic, but are the 320s undergoing some kind of engine test? Saw one landing today with different looking engine!!!!Just wondering and sorry for kinda stupid question.
CBAFIL
aviator4ever
25th Apr 2010, 02:03
LOOKS LIKE SAUDI AIRLINE IS GOING TO GET A NEW AIRCRAFTS BUT ITS NOT GONING TO BEE TOO EASY :ok:
fullforward
25th Apr 2010, 06:16
guess my English language knowledge is not that good: I couldn't understand what you mean.:confused:
Would you mind to further elaborate?
metro301
25th Apr 2010, 09:02
I think he meant that Saudia is growing but will have a lot of growing pains.
Donkey Duke
25th Apr 2010, 17:19
Where are the classic 747 pilots going at Saudia when the planes go? Are most of them heading over to the A330? Can you move from fleet to fleet at Saudia, or are you assigned a new fleet? Cheers!
metro301
25th Apr 2010, 22:19
I don't know about FO's. Capt's are starting to transition over to the A330 and I heard a rumour of the MD11 freighter as well.
You are assigned a new fleet.
Katangacpt
23rd May 2010, 11:54
Hi there
could anyone tell me what is the roster pattern on the A320 fleet.
Total days off/month.
How many days off in a row.Possibility to commute to Europe.Possibility to request flIghts to the rostering department.
Many thanks.
BadAndy
23rd May 2010, 12:11
Katang--
No rostering, it is a bidding system based on seniority. The lines are built and put out and we bid our choices (again, awarded based on seniority). Reserve lines have 6 consecutive days off in a row every month. Some of us are commuting to the States during those days off, and it isn't easy, but it is doable. Europe should be a piece of cake, and you should get 5 full days at home (as opposed to 2 or 3 to North America).
Most of the lines have a block of days off as well. And, you can trade trips with the other pilots to try and improve them some. The rumor is that we will get a line every third month, but I haven't heard anything official on that, so who knows (it may be truth or it may be wild speculation)... As Sabre comes on-line, trip trading will get easier (you'll be able to trade with open time and completely rearrange your schedule without dealing with a live person). When will that happen? Again, who knows. But if it does, they are saying no more straight-reserve lines -- it will be some trips mixed with reserve days (mixed lines). Good for us at the bottom of the list, at least we'll get some good Europe flying...
Total days off per month varies. Again, on reserve, only promised 6 days (consecutive) off. Throw in a 24 in 7 break, and I average 9 days off on reserve per month (however, I only flew 6-8 days a month on average on reserve, the rest were standby -- hopefully that changes as we get busier over the summer). The lines seem to average 11-12 days off per month, with one big block of days off and then 1-2 days off scattered throughout the month. Again, the caveat here is that is until now. With the accelerated parking of the MD-90's, I was told we are going to get BUSY for the rest of the year starting in June. So, we could end up working all the time. As someone said above, it is in a state of flux right now and everything changes by the day.
Also, on another note, listen to metro301 when he says that it gets better once you're on the line... I have to admit he knows what he's talking about. :O Things are a little unpredictable right now, but they are definitely getting better...
Katangacpt
23rd May 2010, 13:35
Thank you Badandy:)