RAAF v Airline

[mcgrath50]

I am currently completing high school and contemplating my options. I am almost 100% set on joining the RAAF and have started the process to join but I have a friend, ex-RAAF current QF Captain, who is quitely counselling me away from the military.

He says that the RAAF isn't as glossy as everyone makes out, and that if he could do it all again he would join the airlines straight away because he would have had command earlier. He also says by the time I leave the RAAF the airlines could be going through a cycle of 'not recruiting' and I should strike while the iron is hot.

I love the idea of joining the RAAF but what he says does concern me as I respect his opinion. What are your thoughts?

[Urshtnme]

Go with your gut feeling mate. You can get a lot of experience with the RAAF, you can also do a lot of different flying, low level stuff, combat stuff etc.

Plus the Defence Force has low interest home loans and a number od other incentives for its personnel.

I'd so go with the RAAF mate, Qantas isn't going anywhere and you'll always get the opportunity later to go for the airlines.

[capt_akun]

airline loves RAAF pilots. and military has excellent health plans!! and other things....

[Green gorilla]

Go with the RAF if you get to the sharp end (fighters) you wont regret it.

[aileron_69]

I agree, Airforce is a good way to go and come out with no debts and fantastic skills, experience and discipline. Airlines do indeed love Airforce training, and the ladies love an airforce uniform:E

[havick]

Are all the above posters speaking from personal experience having served in the forces as a pilot? Or are you just floating it?

[Urshtnme]

From previous experience

[Trojan1981]

Think about it before you make a decision. Remember the RAAF is part of the military and you will be a military officer first, then a pilot. You will also have an initial minimum period of service, about eleven years for the RAAF from memory. If you decide you don't like it after 2-3 years, badluck, you can't get out. If you fail pilots course for any reason (even if you are a brilliant pilot) you will be stuck in the military as an officer flying a desk for a long time.

The health care is reasonable and it is free, but you are also more likely to be broken. The ADF low intrest loans are not that competitive, the idea seems to be to get members into debt so that they are financialy dependent on the ADF and stay in for longer. It is not anywhere as glam as it seems to an outsider. A friend of mine wanted to fly fighters more than anything else in the world (as did I), he ranked second on pilots cse and was sent to 34 Sqn (CL 600). The RAAF offers some great flying experiences, but you may not get the postings necessary to experience them.

If I were you I would go for the airlines. If you don't like it you can always change your mind later on and go somewhere else (even the RAAF), you will have that choice.
You will be paid far more than in the RAAF and can choose your own health care/ Gyms/ loans. You can also live where you want to and do what you want in your time off.



I am speaking from personal experience. I served with the Army but spent most of my short career posted to RAAF units. In the end it is your decision. Think long and hard before signing on the dotted line because once you are in the RAAF, thats it, your decisions will be made for you. Good luck:ok:

[Mainframe]

Go for the RAAF,

you wont have to pay to be interrviewed,

you wont have to pay for your training,

and you will be paid fairly right from the start.

[havick]

Trojan has hit the nail on the head in this instance. If you are vaguely interested in doing the airline thing (and RAAF being a means to an end), you would be far better served staying civi and joining the airlines as soon as you get the required minimum experience for the various companies.

Don't forget QF runs the seniority system, and as a result all those crusty old (and some not so old) RAAFies that have spent 11 - 15 years in the forces that are pulling the pin and walking to QF start at the bottom of the seniority list the same as little Johnny that's only been flying bugsmashers for 3 - 4 years or so out bush.

There is definately some good/interesting flying to be had in the forces (so I'm certainly not knocking it), but you won't do particluarly much of it (some guys are kissed on the dick and get a good run, goto the right sqn at the right time etc.. most don't). Don't let me even get started on the Navy training pipeline at the moment.

Just a bit of food for thought.

[aussiepilot]

McGrath,

Don't be concerned about the long term commitment required for the RAAF, very few, if any RAAF pilots would say they have gotten bored with their job.
There are always those people who join with the intention of leaving as soon as their ROSO is up and that is ok, but in my case I don't think I will have done everything I want to by the time my I can leave.

The current direct entry ROSO for RAAF is 11.5 years and around 15 or 16 for ADFA.

You will not be stuck serving out your ROSO if you fail pilots course (unless you have completed an ADFA degree), I know of people who have discharged within a few weeks of failing.

If you are good enough, and you want fast jets, you will get them.

Don't let people's negative opinions change your mind (especially if they haven't even done it - Army doesn't count).
You seem to be motivated so give it a go - the airlines aren't going anywhere.
You'll have a hell of a lot more fun than you would fighting for a GA job.

[Gundog01]

Trojan - stop dribbling crap to this kid. In addition to what PAF has corrected you on.

If you don't like it you can always change your mind later on and go somewhere else (even the RAAF), you will have that choice.

I strongly disagree, you are far more likely to go RAAF then airlines.

You will be paid far more than in the RAAF and can choose your own health care/ Gyms/ loans.

Most guys who leave the RAAF after their 10 year ROSO take a pay cut when the go airlines. True, in the long run you get more in the airlines, but if money is your only motivation perhaps merchant banking is a better career choice.

Loans - you are in no way tied to a defence force loan or bank

Gyms - why bother choosing you own and paying for it when there is a fully furnished one on every base. You can still choose one on main street if you want.

healthcare - why pay for it when everything is paid for....but again there is nothing stopping you taking out private health insurance but only a fool would.

You can also live where you want to and do what you want in your time off.


The half a dozen or so places i have lived in have been just great. Lazy sundays at the COT in Perth, great waves on the Newcastle coast, and now barra fishing in Townsville. I probably never would have seen any of these places had i not been in the airforce. Fair enough you move around a bit, but it's all part of the adventure.

Never in my time have a not been able to do what i want in my time off. I'm not sure what "experience" you have had but the RAAF certainly dosent control your free time.


A friend of mine wanted to fly fighters more than anything else in the world (as did I), he ranked second on pilots cse and was sent to 34 Sqn (CL 600).


Perhaps you mate simply wasn't good enough or had the wrong attitude, this has nothing to do with recommending the RAAF as a career.

--------------

I joined the RAAF after a finishing a Uni degree (non aviation) and have loved just about every day of it. You meet some great people, and make life long friends, you get to fly the most high tech kit (think of all the new platforms coming online), you get paid pretty well, you dont have to pay for training.

Obvviously there are down points, moving (especially when you have a significant other), time away from home (typicaly 2-6 months depending on platform) and of course the potential to go to conflict.

But nowhere else can you get the chance to do 600kts at 250ft, drop4000lbs of HE, fly at 250ft on NVGs or fly a Mach 2 at 50000ft.

McGrath the airlines will always be there, make the most of your eagreness to join and good luck.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Blah blah de blah!
Don't forget kid. Rudd owns you and the bad guys don't fire rubber missiles!

bbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[mcgrath50]

Thank you everyone for their great insights, except Mr. Buzzy, I found more help looking in the mens public urinal! :ok:

If anyone else has anything else to add to the debate, it would be great to hear!

[flyhigh744]

Thank you everyone for their great insights, except Mr. Buzzy, I found more help looking in the mens public urinal!

You know McGrath50, Mr. Buzzy does have a fair point.

You may think that the airforce is just some great adventure, but its just more than that. You really do have to be committed if you want to serve in the airforce. There are a couple of threads quite similar to this and I've read that for RAAF interviews, they pick those who are only committed to the military aspect of flying.

I, just like you have always had a passion for aviation from a very young age. I personally didn't want to join the RAAF because of the ROSO. It would be about 15 years for me (ADFA) so I ended up doing the Qantas Cadet Program which I never regretted doing - maybe just a twinge of regret for not having some experience in GA but nevertheless, I still have enjoyed everything to this point and still do. Just do what you feel is right and hope everything turns out great.

Happy flying.
flyhigh744

[mcgrath50]

I understand Mr. Buzzs comments but they seemed slightly err bitter i suppose.

Anyway, the QF cadetship is the other option I would take, my worry about that is it pretty much has it's own ROSO for a whole life, let's be honest who here will admit the kid inside them wants them to fly for any other airline than the flag carrier. So by joining the 'ultimate' (slight sincerity mixed with irony there) at the start of your career where would you go? Do you feel you are lacking somewhat in knowledge of being around the traps in GA and Military like other pilots you work with?

[kellykelpie]

Follow your heart.

[soseg]

capt_akun said, " airline loves RAAF pilots. and military has excellent health plans!! and other things...."

is that still accurate today? it was in the old days but ive heard recently airlines dont look upon them as highly as they used to anymore

just my opinion kinda... saying they 'love' them i think could be a tad of an over-statement, correct me if im wrong though



(i duno how to quote in forums someone tell me in priv msg lol)

[Chronic Snoozer]

You will never regret flying in the RAAF.

You might regret never giving it a shot.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Remember the RAAF is part of the military and you will be a military officer first, then a pilot.

Spoken like a blunt.

[dogcharlietree]

Now let me think (remember). Flying at twice the speed of sound. Flying at 400kts at 100'. Seeing everybit of Oz coastline at less than 300'. New and challenging sorties. Great guys.
Been there, done that (and wouldn't change a damn thing :ok:)

[Captain Sand Dune]

Successfully passing RAAF pilots course requires 100% motivation.

Your motivation does not appear to be 100%. If it were you wouldn't give a f**k what anyone else thought and would have applied regardless.

If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt. Go join the airlines my friend.

[Maggott17]

If you decide to join the RAAF to start your airline career, DON'T TELL THE RAAF your flying career plans:
- Quickest way to fail aircrew selection,
or if you do pass Pilot's Course
- Quickest way to get command of a desk for a few years until ROSO acquital, and no currency for the airlines.

If you want to be an airline pilot - do the courses now and go straight to the best airline you can get into when you have the hours.

If you want to fly F18s, join the RAAF and take the chance that you will fly King Airs.

[Gnadenburg]

Looking forward 15 years- go RAAF.

737's then A330's. A strong position for a DEC especially if the airlines really do "love RAAF pilots". I'm not sure of that though. Locally maybe; perhaps CX too.

Just run with the wonderful training but don't come out the ********. Nobody is shooting at you on civvy street ( except management ).

Long ago, the weather was fluctuating about the minima on RWY27 in Melbourne. Newly checked out ex-Ronnie comes whistling around the corner at Epping in an Ansett A320 and, with aircraft missing out, disengages the Autothrust, Autopilot, Flight Director and selects the Flight Path Vector. Thinking better of it, takes away the FPV too.

Captain leans over re-engages all modes and with wx improving an uneventful landing the result. Debriefing the FO on the events he stated that in the RAAF, when you were very tired and the weather was bad, that's when it was a good time to practice raw data flying.

The last line may or may not be true. But the guy was a modest in ability, newly checked out aviator and being a ********.

I hope being a ******** is clarified in the above. Because after a few years of being civilianised- many ex-RAAF pilots ( not all though ) are exemplary on the line, in training & checking and in all important union leadership roles.

[aussiepilot]

PAF,

Direct entry ROSO is no longer 10 years from graduating pilots course. About 4 years ago it changed to 11.5 years from date of appointment.

[Capt Wally]

There's one single underlying factor here that should be considered, in the ADF yr NOT free, (Mr Buzzy said it all in a nutshell!) they own you to some extent. In civy st you are as free as a bird to try elsewhere where possible. Yr choice at the end of the day.


CW

[aussiepilot]

After all the money that is pumped into training you - isn't it fair that they 'own' you to some extent. Particulary if you compare it to paying for type ratings and interviews with some airlines.
If you are young and and single you won't even feel restricted, it will just be an adventure!
And chicks would take a military pilot over a civvy one any day :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

If I had my time over, I would have finished school and applied to the RAAF! If not the RAF even...:E

[Wizofoz]

Also remember that there is no such thing as "Straight to Airlines". At absolute best there's an expensive cadertship on zero income, followed by a stint in a regional between you and the Flying 'Roo.

[Gundog01]

aussie pilot

not sure if you are correct with ROSO, I graduated 3 years ago and coped the 10 year ROSO. The 11.5 years they qoute on enlistment is based on the minimum time from enlistment to wings, (OTS, BFTS and 2FTS back to back = 1.5) plus the 10 year ROSO. However is stand to be corrected..

[flyhigh744]

Anyway, the QF cadetship is the other option I would take, my worry about that is it pretty much has it's own ROSO for a whole life, let's be honest who here will admit the kid inside them wants them to fly for any other airline than the flag carrier. So by joining the 'ultimate' (slight sincerity mixed with irony there) at the start of your career where would you go? Do you feel you are lacking somewhat in knowledge of being around the traps in GA and Military like other pilots you work with?

I wouldn't say that I got disadvantaged in any way. Most of my mates came through from the cadetship as well so I can't really help you there. But if you study the theory well and put this into practice effectively, there should not be any problem. I found myself quite entertained at some points whilst learning under the QF Cadetship.

Some people argue that GA gives you more of a realistic life/aviation experience which I can't say that I dont disaree with, but my dream was to always fly the 747 (Perhaps now the A380) so I felt that the cadetship was the way to go.

Like other posts, just follow your heart. You'll have trouble coming up with a decision but hey, who said a career in aviation was easy.:ok:

[PLE Always]

If you want it, just do it, you can do yourself in thinking about the Cons.

You will do and see things that will astound you. Things that you will remember for the rest of your life. That's hard to find..

Yes it can be frustrating as all hell sometimes, but hey, s..t happens.

PLE..

[Falling Leaf]

I wanted to be an airline pilot from the age of 7, until I went to my first airshow at the age of 10...

Having just finished nearly 20 years as a military pilot I would recommend the experience to anyone. I probably stayed about 5 years too long, but I had to wait till the pilot market opened up to get an airline job - which I'm also loving (at the moment).

Give it a go. There are plenty of mountains to climb on the way to getting those covetted Wings, so you'll have plenty of opportunities to go back to Plan B along the way (the historical pass mark for Pilots course is around 50%). And as many posters have stated in this thread, the Airlines will always be there (until the Oil runs out).

As a youngster I had advice from some old 'n bold airline pilots about my future choice during a couple of jump seat trips (yes, when kids could get on the Flight Deck of an airliner).

One stated that going the military way was wrong as I'd be a 'weapon of war', the other said give it a go as when you're 40 you don't want to look back and think 'that could have been me'.

They were both right. Everyone has their own opinion (including me). What counts is what YOU really want to do - its easy to be wrongly influenced by the advice of our more experienced elders who have 'been there and done that'.

Good Luck.

[aussiepilot]

I can guarrantee it is not ten years - I have been talking to DP this week.

Pilots course ROSO is no longer called ROSO anymore - it is now an Initial Minimum Period of Service (IMPS), meaning that once that time is expired RAAF will no longer employ you if not needed (unlikely) and you no longer have to stay if you don't want to. The 11.5 year IMPS starts on your day of appointment but only affects you if you grad.

If you gradded 3 years ago that would make you 200-203 course? Check your PMKeys - it will tell you when you can leave (same page as it says your compulsory retirement age).

As for when this was implemented I'm not entirely sure, but I was appointed around 4 years ago.

[havick]

Thats all well and good assuming that its 18 months from joining to the end of pilots course. In fact it is taking about 3 years at the moment.

[aussiepilot]

The amount of time spent on course doesn't affect you. Thats why when I graduated I only had 8.5 years until I could get out. :ok:
No good for the RAAF though.

[mcgrath50]

Having read that thread I can't see what's not to like about a SO job! No work, good pay, travel :P :zzz:

But honestly while that sounds great, 5 years with no flying? No thanks!

This thread has leaned me towards joining the RAAF serving my ROSO then if I am still enjoying the RAAF sign on for more if not jump the the airlines. When I get to old for military life I can see an airline jobe, even as a SO as a nice 'semi-retirement' :P

[Gundog01]

I can guarrantee it is ten years - I have been talking to DP this week.


Direct entry ROSO is no longer 10 years from graduating pilots course.


aussie - so are you saying it is 10 or not???????

I honestly havent looked since i graduated, i was just going from what recruiting told me back in 02'.

[mcgrath50]

11.5 and 14.5 for DE and ADFA respectively

source: http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/airforce/jobs/Pilot/PeriodofService/

[Centaurus]

maybe just a twinge of regret for not having some experience in GA but nevertheless

You must be bloody joking. Dodgy operators, sacked if you write up too many defects in the MR and never sure where your next buck is coming from...

[Fred Gassit]

If I had been lucky enough to be in the RAAF (crap eyesight and no talent besides) upon leaving I wouldn't think I would even want a flying job, how could you top those experiences?

[TruBlu351]

Yeah, so that's 11.5yrs "initial period of service", not ROSO, or return of service obligation after graduating as a pilot.

Trust me, those 11+ yrs will literally fly by :ok: You'll do all sorts of crazy crap that beats the hell out of working for some dodgy back yard operator....and you'll get reassonably paid too, without the going into lots of debt with all your ratings etc.

..........then your SO retirement plan if you want.

[rodney rude]

You can always go RAAF first then RAAF. Very hard to go airlines first then RAAF.

Only problem with going RAAF first (for me personally), was you go from fun and excitement to mundane boredom. Albeit a better lifestyle.

Not many ex RAAFis will tell you they wish they diodn't go RAAF.

[rapiddescent]

Have to agree with TruBlu I think.....

after a couple of tours, you will have loads of experience (in some cases all military fast jet) and can apply to most airlines as a direct entry FO.

The pay is good compared to what you will earn initially in GA and as already mentioned, you will take a pay cut when leaving the RAAF to join the GA ranks.

Training is paid for as well.

Have a crack at the RAAF. Worth the risk.