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SparksFlyHigh
2nd Jun 2008, 14:29
So with this newish idea of FADEC systems being built for light aircraft as an "add on", whats everyones opinion about this?

Very general i know but is it worth it? Cost effective? Would YOU get a system fitted? Why and why not?

Any reply would be a great help thank you :ok:

Intruder
2nd Jun 2008, 18:07
Since it monitors the engine more closely, it will likely prolong the life of the engine and reduce fuel consumption.

Depends on the engine and your use: How long will it take to amortize the cost of the FADEC, given likely reduction in fuel and future overhaul costs? If you have to replace/overhaul the engine anyhow, what is the extra cost to go FADEC?

rigpiggy
2nd Jun 2008, 19:52
you mean like the da42 diesel. if FADEC is that reliable I don't want it

Love_joy
2nd Jun 2008, 20:54
I have flown a C172 with a retrofit Thielert diesel engine with FADEC, it was fab. It really was.

Power check was done on the taxi, simply by holding down a single button and the engine readouts (on a single instrument) were clear and concise.

I have a lot of time in complex multi's, and they are great fun, but FADEC definately has a future in GA

OutOfRunWay
3rd Jun 2008, 10:29
Those Thielerts are great, so much less noise and vibration.

relatively expensive through.

matt_hooks
3rd Jun 2008, 15:24
rig, the problem with the Thielerts is the interface between the engine sensors and the FADEC, rather than the FADEC itself. It's a very new system and there are some creases to iron out for sure, though how that'll happen now Thielert have gone under is a moot point.

Also stretching the Mercedes 1.7L diesel lump from the original 100Hp to the 135Hp continuous that it's rated at in the aircraft is asking for problems. I've seen everything from turbo pipes bursting to total coolant loss. But these are all engine issues rather than FADEC issues.

scoobysnack
3rd Jun 2008, 19:17
flew a pa28 with fadec. easy to use and quick to power check.I think its probably the future with regards to owning a flying club a/c in this price fuel crisis.However had a engine failure in it once and am now not too sure if mixing 20-30year old a/c with this new tech.DA40 seem to be fine with it though:).

rigpiggy
3rd Jun 2008, 21:36
simply stating that FADEC in a light aircraft doesn't have the redundancy of the older equipment. I am enamored with the lightspeed/lasor mags that are failsafe to the old windings, but efinjection and the like really aren't that much more efficient than a properly setup mechanical injection. where the computer controlled stuff works well is on a car where you have a varying load from sop/go driving etc....

Loewe_at
4th Jun 2008, 16:10
Are you talking about retrofit units for Lyconentals or FADECs on new engines like the Thielert or Austro Engine ?

airfoilmod
4th Jun 2008, 16:39
Thielert out of business, as in completely, no spares, support?

Well then. Frank Thielert fired as CEO, Cessna suspends Thielert Engine equipped models. Ongoing criminal investigation.

Full Authority Digital Engine Control. I'd like to play too. No, it isn't Fab.


Idiot Proof? When a system is fool proof, fools will leach into the game.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that, Jerry" "Yes, George."

Airfoil

NutLoose
6th Jun 2008, 19:07
Isn't
Thielert out of business, as in completely, no spares, support?

Well then. Frank Thielert fired as CEO, Cessna suspends Thielert Engine equipped models. Ongoing criminal investigation.

Full Authority Digital Engine Control. I'd like to play too. No, it isn't Fab.


Idiot Proof? When a system is fool proof, fools will leach into the game.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that, Jerry" "Yes, George."

Airfoil

No, they are still trading under the reciever whilst looking for a buyer etc...Diamond have ceased production of the types that require the engines until it is sorted and hope that there engine will be out soon...... spares are available etc but cash up front is reqd...

As for the Idiot proof, well not quite, ask the DA 42 pilots in I believe Germany with the flat battery, the book of words states start one on external power then the other on internal power.... that allows the battery to gain sufficient charge but no one realised..... :cool:

Both were started on external power, off down the runway and into the air, gear up ( Electric) and all the juice was sucked from the alternators to raise the wheels leaving nothing for the poor old FADECs and causing rapid 2 shut downs and a not very nice arrival in a field... Hence the Emergency mods to provide back up power for the FADECS for the Idiots that if there is a way and means will find it :oh:

see

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/23/213371/accident-ignites-da42-engine-row.html

airfoilmod
6th Jun 2008, 19:22
Thank you for all that. You help expand on my frustration with current A/C technology. At First, wicked cool gadgets and widgets captivate us all. The shiny object in the weeds, No? Soon enough IMC "pilots" have Garmin grafted at the elbow and are asking old farts what DME stands for. Alternators are wonderful but can't keep an engine running without a tickle from externals. The old Generator, Magneto did just fine. I don't want an A/C that "thinks" or bets MY life on its idiosyncratic manual.

Airfoil

IO540
6th Jun 2008, 19:34
IMHO, the DA42 "mistake" was to not have provided the engine with its own little generator to power the FADEC. This is what the old Lycos give us - keep feeding in the fuel and the engine keeps going no matter what else happens. That is priceless.

Rotorblast
6th Jun 2008, 20:02
See: http://www.malibumods.com/sitepages/pid46.php :ok:

bad_attitude
7th Jun 2008, 11:43
the DA42 can be outfitted with back up batteries for the ECU's ...

PicklePilot
8th Jun 2008, 01:30
Fadecs need electrical power...when they go, that's it. That said, generaly two of them don't tend to break during a flight...

SNS3Guppy
13th Jun 2008, 06:55
Fadecs need electrical power...when they go, that's it. That said, generaly two of them don't tend to break during a flight...


Come again, ssg? Are you suggesting that FADEC failure (do you know what FADEC is?) results in an engine failure?

rigpiggy
16th Jun 2008, 07:15
Yep, that's exactly what he is saying.

Both engines of a DA42 Twinstar quit shortly after takeoff in Germany last month, and now Diamond is saying it was caused by an engine problem while Thielert says it was an airframe issue, Flight International reported this week. The accident airplane's battery had drained overnight and the pilots had apparently started both engines using an external power unit, which is contrary to the published operating procedure that requires one engine to be started by the onboard battery alone. Both Thielert Centurion 1.7 engines stopped when the pilot retracted the gear, which took all available electrical power to accomplish. This caused a very brief interruption in electrical voltage to the two engine control units, and in turn the diesel engines simultaneously quit on climbout

airfoilmod
16th Jun 2008, 17:21
Not only is FADEC the culprit here (regardless who throws the mud), the electrical system can't cope with the draw from main bus because, equipped with Alternators, without the tickle to create a field, energy cannot be generated to provide "control". One cannot "prop" an A/C with dead ECU's. A dead battery precludes flight in this case. How is it with FADEC there is no plan to "reserve" electrical for at least "FA"DEC? Full Authority? HMMMM......

Airfoil

bad attitude: Why the weight and expense of Back up Batteries when a software tweak would prevent load sufficient to kill engines in the first place? If you are correct, it's no wonder Thielert is out of business and the CEO faces criminal indictment.

As In: VOLT LOW, GEAR INOP

spernkey
27th Jun 2008, 15:04
It is a pity that Diamond could not bring themselves to listen to TAE on the twinstar. TAE wanted them to have the little back up batterries which are fitted to the 172/PA28's as standard. These fag packet sized things will only power the fadecs for 20 mins. Diamond took the view that there was enough redundancy with having 2 engines! Aaaaaaargh! Never mind - you have to pay to learn.

dixi188
27th Jun 2008, 17:11
Turbine engines with FADEC have a Permanent Magnet Generator (PMG) driven by the engine as a back-up to the A/C bus, so that if all electrics fail the engine looks after itself.

How did these light aircraft engines get certified so that a single failure can cause disaster?

Piston engines have 2 magnetos for back-up.

Daniel_11000
27th Jun 2008, 17:22
Two batteries + a small one (DA42 if I remember correctly)

wafflebottom
27th Jun 2008, 18:34
Actually fitting of the ECU backup batteries in the DA42 was mandatory, EASA AD 2007-0183R2, same batteries as altenator backup, only it is two in series for each engine.