US crews need schengen visas?

[weido_salt]

Is it true there has been a change in the law within Schengen member states, requiring all US crews with US passports to have crew or some sort of visia now?

Not before time of course, if this is true, as it will level up the playing field.

[727 exec]

They certainly need them for France - so would assume that Europe will follow...

[Belgium Legacy]

We need one for the States so it's just fair that the EU is starting to require visa's for US crew's.

[manligsak]

the best would be if they were all denied entry

[FlyMD]

Firstly, I deeply resent the 1 fully wasted day I had to spend waiting in line at the US embassy to get my C1/D and B1B2 Visa. Utter waste of my time. I also resent the several hundred dollars this unnecessary procedure is costing my company, and ultimately my customer.

Secondly, I see strictly NO reason to subject our US colleagues to the same bull****, as one way or the other there is strictly NO security gain to be had from this whole rigmarole (sp?).

However, in these silly times, RECIPROCITY seems to be the only method to insure that we European operators are not put at an unfair disadvantage: If I have to spend several thousand dollars a year equipping my crews with visas, so should the US operators.. If I have to order and buy a silly customs decal to cross the pond, so should the US planes to come over here. If I have to apply 48 hours in advance for a US flight, and waste precious SATCOM minutes on phoning US customs 3 hours before landing, then the same should go the other way... Same deal for making the pax disembark and go through fingerprinting. Same for cabotage inside Schengen airspace...

We all know it's a bunch of silly and useless procedures that make our job a pain in the butt. But there is really no choice than to do unto them as they would unto us...

[hawker750]

Here Here FlyMD.
I could not put it any better. I have been campaigning for years for equality. The number of N registered aircraft operating in Europe should be curtailed. Can you imagine what the FAA would say if Teterborough was littered with G, F or D reg aircraft operating between there and LAX. They simply would not allow it.
I mentioned it before, I received a $5,000 fine for not informing Teterborough customs I was running 1 hour late. I had informed the handling agent but apparantly it is not their job to liaise with customs!! Nice people the yanks(sic). We really should put pressure on our European Trade associations to level the playing field. Any volunteers to take charge of this issue?

[hawker750]

Really funny this:
When one of our crew had the friendly chat with the US embassy, the guy from the embassy was Mexican! LOL

[411A]

The number of N registered aircraft operating in Europe should be curtailed. Can you imagine what the FAA would say if Teterborough was littered with G, F or D reg aircraft operating between there and LAX. They simply would not allow it

Hmmm, all very interesting.
Just yesterday, flying into KSDL, I noticed on the ramp, nicely parked, all in a row...
Two UK and one German...registered bizjets, and according to the FBO, they had been flying in/out of SDL for the last two weeks, mostly to Texas and Florida.

So, it looks to me that it really is allowed, FAA or no FAA.

Get a grip, guys.
You need a US visa because....we are bigger, and you ain't.
Simply the facts.

[kitekruncher]

I imagine the only reason one would want to visit such a large country that entails so much ghastly red tape , form filling, customs, TSA etc is the almighty lack in strength of the $ ??

[FlyMD]

Yes, size does matter, especially if we're talking about 411A's mouth... this is why the Schengen countries need to get their act together and negotiate with the US a an entity... then we might even get some of the red tape to disappear..

[Jonny-no-stars]

411A Quote: "We are bigger, and you ain't"

Tells you everything that you need to know about the intellect of this individual.

[weido_salt]

I think really the Europeans need to grow some b*lls and make a stand on the crew visa issue. Seems like the French have the right idea, dare I say it. If the US want to screw the rest of the world around with visas for this and visas for that, then give them some of their own medicine.

One difference between the US and Europe, is the US are UNITED. I would have thought the JAA countries could get together and decide on a common policy on this one.

[His dudeness]

"I think really the Europeans need to grow some b*lls and make a stand on the crew visa issue. Seems like the French have the right idea, dare I say it. If the US want to screw the rest of the world around with visas for this and visas for that, then give them some of their own medicine.

One difference between the US and Europe, is the US are UNITED. I would have thought the JAA countries could get together and decide on a common policy on this one."


Won´t happen, the UK feels way more connected to the colonies than with the Europe. So at least they will stay out...as they do Schengenwise...
Furthermore Our politicians give a rats ass about us, their citizens. And 411A is not soo far off, whenever the US gruntle, our political class stand to attention.

[Flintstone]

As in most walks of life there is always one idiot who taints his fellow countrymen by his own idiocy be they American, British, French, German, Malawian........take your pick.

Sadly 411A has taken it upon himself to become the Arse Of America. Way to go 411A, you're pitied on both sides of the pond.

[411A]

Well, lets see, Flintstone.

Eurotrash fly their bizjet airplanes to America, and the crews need a visa.
Big F Deal.

When they get here, they avail themselves of the much lower cost of exec aviation charges, versus their home country.
Lower landing fees (sometimes none, depending on the airport.
Lower handling fees.
Lower parking fees.
Lower fuel costs.
NO charge for filing a flight plan nor obtaining a weather briefing.

With me, so far, Flintstone?

Last, but not least, as the US Dollar is low at the moment, they save as well...and...if these Eurotrash operators know what they are doing, can avoid overflight/nav charges, as well.

Them's the facts.

Eurotrash operators are only just slightly jealous of the lower cost of exec aviation, this side of the pond.
Oh gosh, why am I not surprised?:}

Quite frankly...I think we should charge 'em more...much more....by a factor of two, perhaps.:E

[Flintstone]

Eurotrash


Niiiice. Please don't feed the troll ladies and gentlemen.

[H.Finn]

At least now we all know what the "A" stands for. And btw fuel tends to be cheaper here on this side of the Atlantic, where multilingual people live.

[411A]

And btw fuel tends to be cheaper here on this side of the Atlantic, where multilingual people live.

Quite interesting, H.Finn.

Less expensive than $1.67/US gallon for jet A...perhaps?
Yes, that is what we pay for our two private airplanes.
Today.
Plus a 10 cents/USG flowage fee.

European bizjet aviation is so far behind the times it isn't funny.
They pay through the nose...and get less.
Most times, much less.
Sadly, they (as a group) have no clout whatsoever with the regulatory authorities...none.
Period.
Quite unlike this western side of the great devide.

[PicMas]

Eurotrash

HAHA:ok: Thats pretty rich coming from a person who is, in essence, living in Albania with a neon finish.

[hawker750]

411 should be banned from this forum. Mediator please can you arrange it.
He (she) (it) is the prime example of why most educated Europeans avoid going west of Shannon unless completely unavoidable.
We have stopped any training in the US or even FSI Farnborough because of US attitude. We simply do not like being served by rude people. All our training is done in Dubai with extremely friendly and competent people. Oh and by theway 411 you spell devide with in i

[Denti]

I have to kinda agree. ssg in its many iterations got banned for just spouting nonsense, but this post from 411A really bustet the normal standards of a normal discussion, he should be banned.

[cldrvr]

Banned? Why, we need our illiterate cousins around for entertainment

[Bus_Bar]

Exactly what is US English 411A? There is English and..........oh yes, English.

Having lived out in your country and being married to a yank, you have a good country, but your attitude is quite Draconian and doesn't endear itself to the US regaining popularity around the world. A population of 300 million that seems to unjustly get tarred with the same brush because of you're El Supremo. It will be a real schock to middle America when Barak or Hilary lands the top job, because you get bet your bottom dollar it won't be the Republicans again.....

As you say over there; get with the programme and try and work with people not against them..

Have a nice day now.

[411A]

but this post from 411A really bustet the normal standards of a normal discussion....

Not quite sure what 'bustet' refers to, however...the real objection to the USA seems to be, we have...

Lower fuel costs
Lower (or no, depending on the specific airport) landing fees,
Lower parking fees,
NO fees for filing a flight plan or obtaining a weather briefing,
And, a much larger business aviation fleet than anyone else on the planet, that is represented by powerful business interests that keep the regulatory authorities at bay, theirby keeping costs down.

In short, all the items that the UK/European business operators wish they had, but simply don't.

As a result, UK/European business aircraft operators (and their overworked/underpaid pilots, who have to stand in line at the US consulate for a visa...oh, boo hoo:{) are resentful...nothing more nor less.

One suggestion.
IF the pilots, and indeed the business aircraft owners/operators wish to avoid operating their private aircraft to America, they have two simple choices.
1. Fly commercially
2. Stay home

Simple as that.

But of course, they won't stay home.
They will continue to fly here, mostly for the many business opportunities available presently...and their respective pilots will continue to bit*h and moan, and will send their passports to the US consulate for a visa, like it or not, simply because it is required to keep employed and still fly to the USA.
Will this change?
No.
Will the EU require visas for the pilots of American registered business jets?
Quite likely not...simply because they cannot get their collective act together.
And, even if they could, we simply don't care.

[hawker750]

Does anyone know who 411 really is. I guess he will not own up to his ownidentity. If somebody does please let me know, I think his employer should read his vitriolic claptrap

[Scratch Pad]

Not quite sure what 'bustet' refers to............................theirby

411A, some advice for you. If you are going to criticise someones spelling make sure your own is up to snuff, capische? Otherwise it tends to backfire and make you look stupid.


Lower fuel costs
Lower (or no, depending on the specific airport) landing fees,
Lower parking fees,
NO fees for filing a flight plan or obtaining a weather briefing,
Which is good enough already but when you see that the US$ is in the sh1tter compared to those pesky european currencies it makes it even cheaper for us to bring you the business. Good thing too really because let's face it, you need our money what with yours being worth next to nothing. Hell, there are third world economies doing better than yours at the moment.

In short, all the items that the UK/European business operators wish they had, but simply don't. If dealing with redneck bigots like yourself is the price of having these things we'll go without thanks and just make do with our history and culture.

As a result, UK/European business aircraft operators (and their overworked/underpaid pilots, This is my favourite part. I'd say type for type most european pilots earn 50-100% more than their american counterparts. I earn roughly DOUBLE that compared to the US$ paid guys I meet on recurrent.


They will continue to fly here, mostly for the many business opportunities available presently... Funnily enough several of the businessmen I've taken to the US recently said exactly the same thing except they were a bit more predatory about it. They can buy out US companies for peanuts because of the parlous state of the dollar and manufacturing costs are a fraction of those in the rest of the civilised world. Congratulations, your workforce is on par with far east sweat shops. You must be very proud.


..... we simply don't care. And while you were busy not caring (and being smug about it) it's all started falling apart. I don't know about Clinton or Obama, I think even Mugabe could improve on the state of things there at the moment.




Just remind us again how great y'all are ;)






(I most sincerely apologise to my American relatives, friends and colleagues but an arse is an arse regardless of nationality and 411A is yours. See you in the bar:O).

[FlyMD]

what arguments? This thread was never about bashing the US, it was about what the EU/Schengen countries must do to insure a level playing field. I don't try to tell the US how to manage their aviation security, but say that we should enforce reciprocity, so as to insure both a level playing field, and an incentive to the US to relax some of their more bothersome and useless measures eventually.

Now I don't know why 411A would go off on a tangent about fuel prices and whose willy is more potent, because it does not have anything to do with the subject. We pay US fuel prices in the US, and our prices in the EU, as do US operators... duh!!!

I don't know either why 411A feels attacked by this thread (incidentally most airports in Europe don't allow Tristars anymore anyway, so big deal for him...). It's only ever US-bashing if people like him make it so, choosing deliberately to misinterpret what others say..

On a personal note (yes, I do that...), and having read some of 411A's choicer tidbits in the Tech forum, I fully agree that he is a complete moron with an ego problem the size of a Tristar fuel bill....

[411A]

...and having read some of 411A's choicer tidbits in the Tech forum, I fully agree that he is a complete moron with an ego problem the size of a Tristar fuel bill....

And, with the personal attack, completely disrupt your entire arguement.
Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.
Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?
Not likely...simply because the 'Europeans' can't get their collective act together.
Who's fault is that?:}:}:E:E

[Belgium Legacy]

Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.

Some of us already do, get with the program.

Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?

Like most of us think; yes you should be standing outside an obscure European consulate and be barked at by a rent a cop who is sleeping a the gate and opens an eyelid each time the bell rings.

Why should American pilots be treated different then their European counterparts?

[His dudeness]

Oh boy, do I really have to defend 411A ?

"Hey, maybe the US consulate will, at some future date, require a two day wait in line for your personal visa.
Will I, personally, have to wait in line at some obscure European consulate for a visa?
Not likely...simply because the 'Europeans' can't get their collective act together.
Who's fault is that?"

THIS is simply true. Not putting up with the US is the fault of our politicians, voted by (some) of us. Not being united, not having the same legislation in vital parts of life, IS our fault.

The US still is sort of sacrosanct, maybe still because of their role some 65+ years ago.

[justlooking_tks]

I don't think 411A should be banned and I think that might be a tad unfair. Perhaps some heavy handed editing by a mod might be in order at times.

Actually 411A's posts are a source of entertainment for me at times.

[411A]

Edited. Duck.


IF I was in charge of the State Department (for those that don't know...the US State Department, the folks who set the visa requirements), I would eliminate all this nonsense for CREW...and continue the visa-waiver program for European/UK visitors.

Except for the 'complainers'...for these, they can wait in line for five days, if necessary.
Simply don't care.:E
Will the UK/EU reciprocate?
No.
For the reason that was mentioned previously...cannot get their collective act together. They simply don't have the nerve.
His Dudeness was spot on.

[cavortingcheetah]

Edited. Duck.
As for visas in general, have a crack at obtaining a Schengen one! It's quite a demeaning and expensive route if you want to come up to Europe from South Africa, for example. As for the USA'ers being a trifle ticklish about entry visas to their country, who can blame them with, at least by all accounts, all of the English wanting to leave their own wonderful land because they themselves are being pushed out by the eastern hordes, a by product of their own mismanaged policies?:hmm:

[Duck Rogers]

No.

This thread will not deriorate into another 'across the pond' bitchfest. By all means debate the visa issue but the old chestnuts are verboten and threads will be deleted or edited accordingly.


Duck

[DA50driver]

There are valid points to both sides of this argument. It is a pain to deal with, but it all comes with the job.

To 411, the landing fees and nav fees in the US are rolled into the price of fuel. Any chance you can produce a copy where it states that you paid $1.67 for fuel? I haven't paid that kind of price in the US since 2000 or so.

[AA717driver]

This is just a political tennis match and we are the ball. None of us wants (or needs, given the extensive documentation of our licenses, medicals and passports) the hassle of obtaining visas for our work.

The U.S. in a post-9/11 frenzy $h!t on everyone--friend or foe in a vain attempt to secure its borders (funny, thousands of Mexicans seem to have no problem entering without a visa each year...:hmm: ).

If both parties were concerned about crew security, we all could submit to a security screening process and get a valid crew visa that would be good for several years and easily renewable (unless found drinking Budweiser in Europe! := ).

It's clear that the U.S. Government is not the slightest bit concerned about REAL security or making the lives of aircrew less complicated.

Now, if we could just get SAFA checks banned at the end of the KLAX-LEMD flight... :{ TC

[411A]

Any chance you can produce a copy where it states that you paid $1.67 for fuel? I haven't paid that kind of price in the US since 2000 or so.

Ever heard of Phoenix Fuel, and purchasing in large lots?

Once the 'cheap' fuel is used, then the price is negotiated, up/down...mostly up at the moment.
Those that plan ahead save big bucks.

[doubleu-anker]

Totally agree the visa thing must be reciprocal.

The Australian authorities over reacted a few years ago and demanded every passenger that arrived, from most countries, have a visa. Of course now when an Australian passenger goes abroad, they need a visa, when visiting those countries.

Same should be demanded of crew visas, if this BS is to continue. However I think the whole crew visa thing is a sham and should be scrapped.

[g4pilot]

411A - I am willing to bet without a doubt that your fuel price is not under $4.00/gal., anywhere in the US. Besides our flight department we own our own FBO and purchase fuel from Phoenix fuels on a regualr basis in bulk and the fact is that the base price of fuel, before taxes is close to $4.00/gal. When you add in all the taxes the actual fuel cost is around 50 cents higher. Dont know who you are trying to fool, but seeing that this is an aviation forum you have to bet that most people on here can detect bulls..t from the truth.

I myself am American (a very ashamed one at the moment), and cannot agree more that the EU should require US crews to obtain visa's since that is whats required of them when flying into our country. Fair is fair.

It is true that flying the USD is much cheaper than in the EU (no landing fee's, flight planning fee's, etc.) but there is a reason for that. The US is much larger land wise, so naturally corporate aviation is used much more here and is much more streamlined. But take a look around a major EU airport, such as Frankfurt Germany and compare that airport with LAX.... LAX looks like a Greyhound bus terminal compared with Frankfurt. It is embarrasing! I have also never landed at an EU airport with deteriorating runways/taxiways. Where as even at the largest corporate airports here like VNY they are in horrible condition. All this costs money. And BTW - the potential for user fee's in the US is not going away, it will be a reality here shortly as well. Its sad to say, but the US is broke and you can see evidence of that everywhere you look here.

On behalf of the more educated Americans, I want to apologize on 411A's behalf. He is obviously one of those un-educated ignorant Americans that no matter what happens will always say and think that the US is the best country in the world. I sure hope it will one day return to its previous splendor having learned from its mistakes, but until then we are far from the best.

[FlyTCI]

Very good first post on pprune g4pilot.. Welcome aboard..

As one of these "eurotrash" living in the US I can fully understand you not being proud of your homeland at the moment. Every time I hear the phrase "the greatest country in the world" I laugh hysterically. 99% of those saying this have probably never left the US borders. Whenever I'm outside of the US and people ask me where I'm from (my foreign accent is hard to detect) I always say I live in the US, BUT I'm from "inserting my home country" only to avoid any kind of bashing. This especially when in arabic countries.

The truth is that the PEOPLE of the US are mostly a great people to be around, it's their leaders who are at fault giving hem a bad rep. Yes the people elected the prick, but they have finally woken up and smelled the roses and it can only go up from here. In the past whatever came out of DC was always considered to be the truth, now it's finally OK to question things.

There are great things on both sides of the pond and I take the best from both worlds as much as I can. I believe we will all benefit from the US losing this reputation they have picked up during the last few years.

Btw, g4flyer, if you frequent any of the US aviation forums you will know me as "flyzimex or swedespeed".

flytci

[g4pilot]

Thank you TCI. I could not agree with you more.

People like 411A will likely call me "un-patriotic", but I don't see anything "un-patriotic" about criticism. I love this country which is why I choose to live here, but that does not mean I need to be one of the herd that follows and agrees with everything that comes out of Washington DC. Someone who is truly Patriotic will criticize what they believe to be wrong and speak or do things which they think would better their country. I actually think that all those Americans who are simply saying "we are the best" and bashing all other countries and not standing up for what they know is the right thing to do are being very un-patriotic by doing a dis-service to their country. If more Americans had been openly against the war I think there could have been a chance that we would not be in the huge mess that we are in now.

I am very much looking forward to the upcoming elections and finally getting this monkey (no dis-respect meant to monkeys) out of office. Most Americans have had enough and will hopefully make the right decision this time around.

Fly Safe!

g4pilot

[DA50driver]

I have heard of Phoenix Fuels, but they can not come close to 1.67 these days. Maybe you bunkered the fuel. Still waiting for the receipt.........

[NuName]

Well I guess I need to put my 2p worth in. The US is on a continuous path to increase their perceived security, we cant blame them for that. However, if the rules are unbalanced they have to be addressed. This is clearly the case as I know of several Americans who are based in Europe flying the "N" and do not have work permits or residence. I do not have any specific problem with this, I have worked all over the world, but if no one brings these things to the attention of the European authorities we are never going to enjoy a reciprocal regulatory environment in aviation. The US government will only respond to their own taxpayers complaining to them, if they respond to anyone that is. If our American cousins see Europe tightening up in a similar manner to the US, and they suffer in the same way, maybe we can see some mutual progress. Getting recurrent done and dealing with the TSA, not to mention getting a new visa (now you cannot do it by post) is going to get worse, maybe 411A works for the Fed's? (no, they could not have any use for such a moron) We have to urge our respective European governments for reciprocity and not accept our jobs being taken by non Europeans whilst we are not able to do the same. The laws are in place, we have to make sure they are observed.

[multycpl]

Although i must agree whole heartedly that its not fair, since when has a 'tit for tat' fight ever got anywhere ? Wouldn't getting rid of this senseless timewasting be soooo much better for all !!

Could someone please explain just exactly what spending all day in line and paying £ - $s for a stamp in your passport really proves to anyone anyway.