Identity of Airliner with Stairs under the Tail

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Am I dreaming or is/was there a passenger aircraft which had rear stairs under the tail? Hard to describe, but passengers boarding the aircraft using these stairs would be facing the cockpit door - if that makes any sense. I thought it might be a DC-9 but can't find any photo evidence.

[henry crun]

Look for an early photo of the B727. Most of them were sealed after a certain bloke used the back stairs to parachute from one of them with a ransom.

[treadigraph]

DC-9, 727, 1-11 and the Caravelle all had rear airstairs as I recall. 727 was the aeroplane of choice for the infamous US hijacker D B Cooper who used the rear airstair to exit by parachute with his loot...

[norwich]

May I ask you to look at the caravelle, this had stairs under the tail, or am I also losing it ? Keith.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/1344239.jpg

[evansb]

The Martin 202/404 piston engined airliner also had rear airstairs.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/PiedmontM404.jpg

[pzu]

Rear Airstairs

Also various Russian types TU-134 & 154 plus YAK 40? and others?

PZU - Out of Africa

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Very interesting - thank you all.

The Caravelle picture is exactly the arrangement I'm talking about.

I'm dredging up a childhood memory so the DC-9 or BAC 1-11 are most likely in my case. The airline was probably Aer Lingus (don't think they had DC-9s).

I also remember travelling with Aer Lingus on a "combi" half pax/half freight aircraft, probably BAC 1-11 but I can't find any pictures. Unlikely to have been the same aircraft because I recall the front section being the pax section.

[DH106]

Your Aer Lingus 'combi' was most likely one of their 737-200QC's which could be rapidly converted to carry a combination of cargo & pax, rather than a 1-11.

[JEM60]

Have flown on TU134 and 154 [someone had to!!] Normal entrance. I didn't see a rear entry door, but i DO believe that the IL86 had one.

[evansb]

Yak-42 with ventral airstairs deployed.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/Cubana_YAK_42.jpg

[603DX]

I flew to Jersey in 1965 in a BAC 1-11 with the rear airstairs. I recall that we boarded while both engines were running at idle, and that all of the passenger seats were facing the rear. This was considered a safer configuration in the event of a forced landing, at that time. I believe that the airline was BEA, or possibly BUA.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

603DX, I believe you might be confusing the engines running at idle with that of an operating APU.

[WHBM]

The One-Eleven probably had the APU running rather than both engines idling. The APU was directly above the rear stairs and its exhaust made a considerabe noise when in use.

I'm interested to hear about the One-Eleven with rear-facing seats as I didn't know any had these. In 1965 BUA was the first operator of the type, BEA didn't get the One-Eleven till several years later. Rear-facing seats were a requirement of the RAF for troop charters for a long time and so for airlines that did RAF work as well as commercial operations they would have their aircraft set out like this, but the requirement on chartered-in aircraft disappeared in the mid-1960s (the RAF continued with it on their own aircraft). BUA did a lot of RAF charter work at the time.

Not to be confused with those BA Tridents which for their whole life had a section of seating with rear-facing seats; this was an airline choice.

The concept that rear-facing seats were safer is open to considerable debate. Although pax may feel they are better supported in a forced landing or sudden stop, such seats expose the pax to greater injury in such circumstances from loose items such as hand-baggage or detached cabin fittings being thrown forward as projectiles, which a number of studies showed were actually a more likely and serious hazard.

[diddy1234]

Norwich, that caravelle brings back memories of seeing them fly into Luton when I was younger.

I do not know what operator used them out of Luton but they did look a very nice aircraft.

I wonder how easy they were to fly compared to the comet ?
With the horizontal tail lower down, I would image that Deep Stall is not a problem.

RD

[Phileas Fogg]

Dc9/md80/md90/b717

[MReyn24050]

Here are three that have already been mentioned:-
BAC 1-11
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/BAC111Rearstairs.jpg
Boeing 727
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/727rearstairs.jpg
Douglas DC-9
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/DC9RearStairs.jpg

[WHBM]

that caravelle brings back memories of seeing them fly into Luton when I was younger.

I do not know what operator used them out of Luton but they did look a very nice aircraft.
The only regular operators of Caravelles out of Luton appear to have been Sterling from Scandinavia, and the Spanish charter carriers (Aviaco, Transeuropa, TAE, etc) in the 1970s, when the Caravelles started to come down from mainline operations.

[diddy1234]

WHBM, thanks for that.

I always had wondered who operated them.

[HXdave]

i once flow a DAN-AIR BAC1-11 which had the stairs in the rear. it also had a few rear facing seats, which were mainly centered around the emergeny exit areas over the wings, but only about 2 rows (i think the config was 2 - 3) suppose in hindsight, this gave a greater evacuation space should it be needed to depart the aircraft in a hurry.

[merlinxx]

We (BUA) only used rearward facing seats on the 1-11 for trooping flts to Germany. MoD Air requirement.

[PaperTiger]

B727. Most of them were sealed after a certain bloke used the back stairs to parachute from one of them with a ransom.Not sealed (none that I know of), but a device ("Cooper Vane") added to prevent opening in flight. We would lower the rear stairs even when boarding via a jetway to avoid the possibility of a tail-sit.

[WHBM]

Hi merlinxx

We (BUA) only used rearward facing seats on the 1-11 for trooping flts to Germany. MoD Air requirement.
So were the seats moved around (wich I would imagine would take a shift to do and another to undo) or were certain aircraft preallocated and set up like this ?

[Pom Pax]

Like 603DX I flew to Jersey in a BUA BAC 1-11 with the rear facing seats on several occasions. So this configuration was not confined to trooping flights.

[Opssys]

The Picture of the Piedmont Martin 202? having ventral stairs - Well you learn something..

DC9-10 Series (equivalent to BAC -11 200) NO Ventral Stairs but detachable Tail Cone so the rear emergency exit (in normal circumstances) led into the Tail Cone

BUA (and latterly BCAL) Configuration Teams:
The BAC 1-11's both 200 and 500 had a large number of approved configurations and it never ceased to amaze me how quickly a reconfiguration could be carried out (even a minor change could involve re-pitching every seat row).

BUA VC10's were also used on Trooping Flights (I think the last major contract was Aden which was before my time with the Airline).

[renfrew]

I flew on an Allegheny Martin 202 in 1965 from Newark to Philadelphia.
How things have changed,went to a checkin desk but was told to simply go to the gate.No security of course.
The plane appeared,parked on the apron with tail towards the gate,engines still running and dropped the stairs from under the tail.
An agent wandered up,casually pulled our coupons and pointed us towards the plane.We boarded,stairs came up and off we went.
The flight must have been on the apron for all of 4 minutes!

[asmccuk]

I remember using the 1-11 rear stairs, and on one occasion experienced an emergency evacuation after landing, due to a bomb scare, when having chosen to sit near the back was beneficial because we used the rear stairs, while those near the front had to use the front door slides!

I also remember the rear facing seats on the BUA 1-11-201s, when, for a short period in the late 1960s, they were used on morning and evening flights between Gatwick and Belfast/Edinburgh/Glasgow. (Was that the BUA Interjet service?) We were told that these aeroplanes were used for trooping flights during the middle of the day.

asmccuk

[henry crun]

PaperTiger: That was what I meant to imply but did not state clearly. :)

[merlinxx]

WHBM Plenty time on night shift, could be done in 4/5 hours. Acft then spent
up to a month in rearward config. APU running all night on stand
kept us Ops/Flt Planning Erks awake!!! (Thks again for the pics)

Opssy Yup Aden, I remember the last out being hit by
small arms fire on dep. I think it div'd into Tehran enroute. Must
try harder to get memory in to gear.

Asmcck Yup all flts incl the Interjet were flown with rearward config as the
fleet was not that large by today's standards, to be able to keep
airframes dedicated to one task., though tried to keep off the
Genova sked, also the West African never was flown with rearward
config.

It was 40+ years ago

[Dan Winterland]

A parachute school in the west US used to use a BAC1-11 as it's jump plane with the gravity powered nutters exiting from the rear door. Can't remember where it operated from, but might have been Phoenix.

[Brian Abraham]

Perris Valley in California use DC 9-21 Dan if you want to try it. ;)

[Dan Winterland]

I did consider parachuting once. But then the aircraft recovered from the spin so decided not to.


But thanks for the offer Brian. :ok:

[Terry McCassey]

henry crun. The B727's I am familiar with had a very ingenious mechanical device fitted to prevent a D B Cooper re-occurance. On the left side of the structure next to the door stair was a speed operated " wind vane " that after about 50 kts on the take off roll would rotate 90 degrees. This would introduce a baulk that would mechanically lock the door until the aircraft again dropped below high speed on the landing roll. The device was spring loaded to the open position. Clever and simple idea that certainly would have scuppered Mr Cooper's little scam !

[Brian Abraham]

I did consider parachuting once
You don't know what you're missing Dan. The best fun to be had with your pants on, and some folks (gals too) pants off.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/r.jpg

[WHBM]

Skydiving from the rear ventral door :

This has been offered for 10 years or more from Boeing 727s which major skydiving centres in the US chartered in on special occasions. Never found out if the exit steps are extended at speed or removed completely. More recently the DC9 has got such approval as well, and Perris in California (one of the largest ones) have one of their own.

http://www.freefall.com/aircraft.php

Ah, my "gravity powered nutter" days ........ :)

Meanwhile back at the rearward seats trooping flights, BUA in the 1960s had the main charter contract to the MoD for flights to the various bases in Germany, which the One-Elevens were used for. Around 1969 this contract was lost to Britannia with 737s, who I am not aware turned seats around, so the RAF requirement must have been dropped. Mate from university days joined the MoD as an interpreter, and said that although he often went out to Germany on BA, sometimes the travel depatment in a moment of parsimony put him on the troop charters where he was packed in, in his suit, between army squaddies and their families, most of who had a stream of kids in tow and more babies in suspended bassinets than he would have believed possible. Sounds like even a night Ibiza was better.

[chevvron]

The RAE Farnborough BAC 111 c/s MPDXF(XX919?)had all rear facing seats as did Comet MPDXA (XV814)

[Midland 331]

I understand from a former Dan Air D/O that they once rushed a late passenger out to a taxing 1-11 at Newcastle in the ramp car, asking tower to stop it and drop the back steps. LMC to load sheet, and off it went. Bravo!

[dixi188]

BAC 1-11 rear facing seats.

The 500 srs. aircraft had max 109 pax with forward facing seats but Courtline wanted 119, so the rows at the overwing exits had back to back non reclining seats to allow better access to the exits.

The evacuation trials were done in a blacked out hangar (104) at Hurn with fit young apprentices all with numbered vests.
It took 3 attempts to achieve the required 90 sec. time for all occupants to evacuate using half the exits.
I know as I was one of the volunteers, but had to watch as there were too many of us.

Other operators also used this config.

[603DX]

Interesting how thread drift occurs ..... My post #11 was on the subject of rear airstairs on a BUA 1-11, but also mentioned its rear-facing seats and the engines apparently idling while boarding. Several interesting posts have picked up on these points, so here's a little more ......

My wife and I were actually booked with BUA to Guernsey, not Jersey, with our newly born baby daughter to spend Christmas with her parents. Our daughter was also to be christened while in my wife's home island.

At the Gatwick check-in we were very disappointed to learn that our flight by Dart Herald or Viscount was cancelled owing to an excessive crosswind in Guernsey. The BUA desk staff could not have been kinder, when we explained the double blow of missing both Christmas and the christening. They quickly changed our booking and accompanied us to the Jersey-bound 1-11 flight, which had just boarded and was about to depart, with the promise of a connecting flight to Guernsey when the wind abated.

On arrival in Jersey the wind was unchanged in Guernsey, so BUA put us up in a very decent hotel, and we finally flew in a Dakota to Guernsey the next morning. All ended well, thanks to BUA - what service!

So our baby daughter had her first flight at the age of 2 weeks, backwards, to the "wrong" island. (She is now a PPL, and living in the "right" island, I'm pleased to say.)

[S'land]

So our baby daughter had her first flight at the age of 2 weeks, backwards, to the "wrong" island.

Even better, her second flight was in a Dakota.

[glhcarl]

merlinxx:
We (BUA) only used rearward facing seats on the 1-11 for trooping flts to Germany. MoD Air requirement.

Rear facing seats may have been a MoD requirement, but it is not a requirement now.

[barit1]

When Allegheny (a.k.a. Agony) A/L introduced the DC9-51, row 1 seats faced aft, and a folding table separated row 1 and 2. It made for a nice conference arrangement, which I took advantage of once or twice. (You and the dolly could both have window seats, and play footsie...) :ok:

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Southwest used to have some rearward facing seats in some classic 737s. I flew facing backwards and it was quite disconcerting on take off.

[WHBM]

Southwest used to have some rearward facing seats in some classic 737s. I flew facing backwards and it was quite disconcerting on take off.
Indeed. The BA Tridents I mentioned earlier had the forward half of the cabin facing backwards and the rear half laid out normally. Where they met in the middle, like in the Southwest 737s, the seats faced each other in a nice little group of 6 each side of the aisle. However unlike Southwest the BA seating allocation plan would try and put any groups of 6 in here.

Now a nickname for the Trident was the "Gripper" on account of its tendency to Grip The Ground, but that was quite an exaggeration, and when the most powerful Trident 3s came to the very short Manchester-London shuttle, with minimum fuel and cargo, they could go up at a very substantial angle. And so six of us boarded at Manchester one evening (must have been about 1984). Top Banana from client took the window, facing forward. Our Sales Director took the middle seat next to him, the rest of us filled in, and I got the window facing backwards. Down the runway, rotate, and I find I am restrained solely by my seat belt. T.B. looks at me, surprised but then amused. Sales Director looks at me with a definite "Don't fall into him whatever you do" type expression. And so I grip the armrests, possibly an alternative source of the nickname. I still recall it !

[evansb]

TAA Convair 240
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/TAA_Convair_240.jpg

[Seloco]

Southwest used to have some rearward facing seats in some classic 737s. I flew facing backwards and it was quite disconcerting on take off.

Some years ago I recall being allocated a centre seat in the second row of a 757 on a flight to Phoenix out of Orange County. Row 1 faced backwards and was empty, so naturally I asked the FA if I could move to the empty row. I was told in no uncertain terms that Row 1 had to be kept empty. "Why?" I asked. "You'll soon find out..." was the answer.

Sure enough, the max energy take off required of 757s out of John Wayne International - with its (seemingly) near vertical initial climb to the airfield boundary followed by throttle back to minimum power level flight to the coast - would indeed have made those rear-facing seats extremely uncomfortable, if not downright dangerous.

[Opssys]

Before Jetties became the norm, it was standard practise to use the ventral stairs for both embarking and disembarking passengers (especially if seat numbers pre-allocated it made boarding a smidgen quicker) Although it was also standard practise to ensure Passengers using the Ventral Stairs didn't duck under the wing by Posting either a Passenger Services Agent, or Cabin Staff Member at the Wingtip.

As I have just put built a Laker AIrways Tribute Album for Caz Caswell's Web Site I have a photo to hand :-)
http://www.airpixbycaz.co.uk/cazsite/galleries/airlines/laker/lkr17-faliz75.jpg
Copyright Caz Caswell 1975 used with Permission.

As for rearward facing seats, all the 500 Series configurations I seem to remember included one row next to the overwing exits that was rearward Facing. 99Y 104Y, 114Y and the dreaded 119Y with Seat Back 'Catering' and the various sub-versions plus the 8F 80Y. OK its a long while ago and I may be wrong. Some Passengers on the Scheduled Service would chose the rearward seats even if seats in the Forward Facing row on the other side of the emergency exits were available.

As for the BUA/BCAL 1-11-200 series 79Y was standard although I remember a F Class Configuration was used I cannot remember details, or if either had a rearward facing row for the emergency exit.

Laker Airways were all 84Y for their 300/400 Series Aircraft and again I cannot remember if this required a rear facing row to allow for emergency exit clearance.

[Retired Redcap]

If the airline was Aer Lingus then it would be a 1-11. The PCF configuration however would have been a 737-200 as I cannot ever recall them operating the 1-11 in this configuration.

[PaperTiger]

a 757 on a flight to Phoenix out of Orange County. Row 1 faced backwardsReally ? A 757 ? Never heard of that before, which airline ?

[Trident man]

WHBM,The Trident1 and 2 did have rear facing seats in the rear cabin and pullman seats in the front cabin this also included the Trident 3 as well,ill try and find a pic for all to see,here is the rear cabin of the 2E:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/Neil2312/T2_interior.jpg
Trident 3B rear cabin:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q193/Neil2312/T3_interior3.jpg
and here are the pullman seats,these were located in the front of the forward cabin and the front of the rear cabin (pic)
http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/2/0/7/5/23981_1176653570_tb.jpg

[KeMac]

I seem to recall the first row of seats in the BEA Vanguards also faced rearwards with a table between the next forward facing row. My friend and I certainly flew in these seats from LHR to Edinburgh in the late sixties.

[Seloco]

Really ? A 757 ? Never heard of that before, which airline ?

I'm going to have to delve into the physical/mental archives; it was about 20 years ago! But since I have only been out of KSNA twice it shouldn't be that difficult.....and the second more recent time was with America West IIRC.

[philbky]

When the Trident 3s were on the Manchester Shuttle I often used to have to carry a large graphics bag which though measuring around 3 feet 6 inches by 3 feet was very light and was too fragile for the hold. I was always given one of the rearward facing seats, the bag sat nicely between the seats and the bulkhead. Wouldn't be allowed today of course - at least not without an extra charge.

[microlite]

If it was Aer Lingus then it was the 1-11

[evansb]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/Martin_Airstair.jpg

[Harry Clark]

Of COURSE the BAC 1-11 had "airstairs" at the back AND at the front ( the Laker Airways 300-series anyway ) VERY useful for a quick turn-round in Brindisi, when the Corfu runway was being repaired and CFU - LGW direct was "not on", as result. My own personal record was 8 minutes "engines off to engines on". Bet there's some-one out there who did better, but as Fred Burdick died last year, I doubt there's another still with us !

[ducksoup]

Harry,

The 1-11 did, of course have air stairs front and rear except for the so-called Super 1-11 of the well known Big Airways. Their air stairs were not fitted (at extra cost) and weights were put in their place for balance reasons. Apparently this was due to the step-pushers union having to be mollified. They were very powerful in those days. Neither did they have water injection, nor the drooped leading edge of other Operators 500s. Super?

There was also the alleged and allied story of Boeing not allowing BA to call their aircraft the Super 737 due to potential problems with other Operators! Just a spot of info I picked up from the BAC pilots course at Weybridge in 1970.

[Groundloop]

There was also the alleged and allied story of Boeing not allowing BA to call their aircraft the Super 737 due to potential problems with other Operators! Just a spot of info I picked up from the BAC pilots course at Weybridge in 1970.

As BA 737s carried the Super 737 titles for at least 6 years Boeing were not very successful! Also as BA's first 737s were delivered in 1980 how could it be discussed at Weybridge in 1970?:ok:

[Mechta]

The Ilyushin Il-86 had airstairs which came out the left side of the rear fuselage. Once inside at the level of the baggage hold, one then turned left and up another set of fairly steep stairs into the rear of the cabin. Disabled access didn't appear to figure in the design, nor did the designer seem concerned about maximising the use of internal space.

I flew in one Heathrow to Sheremetzevo (Moscow) in December 1991, and the internal stairs, along with the humungous cast aluminium lever on the upstairs emergency exits and the 'take no prisoners' appearance of the Aeroflot hostesses, left a lasting impression.

Rear airstair:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/7/3/1/1643137.jpg

Front Airstair:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/1/6/0914613.jpg

A good shot of the steps stowing:

http://www.planes.cz/photo/1004/1004612/il86-ra-86110-aeroflot-afl-su-prague-ruzyne-prg-lkpr.jpg

This shows it well:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/9/9/1267992.jpg

At an internal Airbus presentation in 2004-ish, the speaker suggested that the A320 replacement could resemble an Il-76 with a pair of rear-mounted engines (well, that's how I visualised his description). The reasoning being that budget airlines were not bothered about top speed. However, sitting on the ground waiting for the steps to turn up cost them money, so future designs would be low to the ground to minimise airstair height.

[ducksoup]

Groundloop,

Of course you are right about the 737 and my aged memory is up to something. Must be either alzheimers or dementia although the earlier remarks were correct I think.

[pppdrive]

Earlier it was asked about Caravelle operators at Luton and one that is missing was Altair who based a Caravelle at Luton and one at Gatwick during the 80s.

Also the Monarch 1-11s (500s) were operated with 119 seats

Paul

[atb1943]

The Dan Air Comet we flew to Gatwick in (G-BDIF, Dec '78) also had a conference type seat arrangement, which suited my buddies enormously because they were always playing 'skat'.

The LOT Tu-154M I flew from Warsaw back to Frankfurt came to a stop and the rearward stairs lowered. Pax were getting ready to disembark, when it was realised the terminal hadn't yet been reached! Pandemonium before all were reseated and buckled up.

Flew business FRA-STN with Air UK, but the return flight was someone else's 1-11 in a max config (119). Had to sit sideways and forget the table, unuseable at that pitch!

cheers
Alan