Continental Airlines Treats Their Pilots Like This???

[aviationluver]

I just jumpseated roundtrip from Houston, Texas to Buenos Aires on Continental Airlines (CAL).

There are other American carriers that fly into Buenos Aires from the states. American Airlines, United Airlines and Delta. What do these 3 carriers have in common that is not in common with CAL? Well, when the pilots of these crews are finished, they go on 36 hours rest. Meaning they land in Buenos Aires in the morning and return in the evening the following day.

What do CAL pilots do after flying 10 hours? They are given 10 hours of rest. 10 hours??? Yes, you read correctly, 10 hours!!! What does this mean? After a 10 hour flight, they must spend 30 min, passing through immigration, etc, to go to the van. Then anther 50 min drive into the city to the hotel. Repeat the same process on the way back. Find time to eat, change, shave and shower. Your 10 hour rest is now reduced down to 7 hours if that. And that 7 hours is in broad daylight when your body will not want to sleep.

You have got to be kidding me. I'm tired enough as it is as a non-revenue passenger. Even though CAL pilots get some rest on the airplane, this is completely ridiculous. How can you expect to fly a heavy, widebody back to Houston on another 10 hour flight after just 10 hours of rest??? There have got to be some serious saftey and fatigue implications here. The CAL pilots told me it was legal (they don't like it) but still.

Also, what does this say about our industry? Is this the direction all carriers are going towards? I thought Cathay gives 3 days to their crews on overnights. I thought back in the day, 3 to 5 days layovers were the reward of finally making it to being a senior, long haul international pilot.

CAL pilots you HAVE TO change this on your next contract negotiation. I don't feel safe knowing this now.

What are your thoughts?

[islandhopper]

Ahhhh,,, bless them!

Did you flight deck jumpseat it or cabin jumpseat it ?

[gooneydog]

If you have to ask ..............

[rewfly]

Ah yes, I have heard about this.. This goes for a lot of their south america routes, pilots and FA's get 10 hours rest. Of course it sucks, but I hear some like it (mostly FA's) for the $.

[ZQA297/30]

The days of 3 or 5 day layovers are long gone.
Economics.

I guess this trip fits under FAR 121.483, but it does seem a tight fit.
121.481 is out of the question.

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-483-FAR.shtml
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-481-FAR.shtml

[Glassos]

Well I haven't flown that particular trip but I've flown the EWR-GRU trip many times and it's very similar in terms of flight time and rest. Although it's a hard trip, it's very productive. Basically you're away from base for about 36 hours and you get 20 hours of flight time (Pay!). You fly the trip four times and you're done for the month. In other words you're at work for six days and you get 80 hours of pay.

Is it safe? It's certainly legal and if you do one of these trips a week, you get plenty of time for rest both prior to and after the trip. Plus you sleep really well for the eight to ten hours between legs. And you get some rest during each leg.

Incidentally, this trip goes very senior because of the time off aspect!

Flame away!

[stilton]

All correct Av L, what you might find surprising is this is a popular, senior trip.

(maximum hours in the shortest time away from home)

We have numerous other, similar trips, how about a 3 day Hong Kong, non stop from NY for example !

Once again, a senior trip, nearly 33 hours pay in 3 days..

Our 'contract' is basically FAR'S

I am home sick and have been for some time, surprise surprise..

[sevenstrokeroll]

CAL has never been high on my list of airlines. But, I'd rather have a short overnight and get right home, or flying again, rather than sitting in a hotel for 36 hours. 12 hour overnight would be better than 10.

Some people like long overnights and that 's fine. Fly or home is my motto. I've seen enough hotels.

As far as rest, safety and the like...well, like I said, 12 better than 10.

[Junkflyer]

If its a 10 hour flight then they also have a relief crewmember so everyone gets a break during the flight.

[Yo767]

Do 4 of this trip per month (20hrs block + 10hrs rest X 4 = 120hrs = 5 days) and you end up with 25 days off a month.

Definitely my dream job!

[AAIGUY]

I would kill for trips like that.. That's a DREAM roster.

Spending 3-4 days in a hotel on a overnight is HELL.

[stilton]

Not sure how you come up with 25 days a month off, and since when does anyone add hours off on a layover to flight time :confused:

Even our most senior 777 pilots 'only' have 20 days a month off..

[leconte]

Well,
are you scared about ?
Listen at this schedule Air Italy ( a charter company operating from milano mxp to the caribbean).
Dep from MXP , 13 hours flight to La Romana ( with a B 757 ! yes seven five seven) stop in santa maria (azore island) to refuel.
Arriving mid afternoon in La Romana.
Wake up something like 5 a.m following morning, shuttle flight to Samanà,
depart to MXP, other 13 hour on a 757 with the same stop in santa maria.
Came finally to mxp at 3 a.m. local time :ugh:
it is enough ?
I forgot, crew of 2, no relief pilot.

Cheers

L.

[Me Myself]

Let's face it guys, with rising fuel costs what are the beancounters going to cut on ?? Hotel rooms of course, among other things...........! I personally refuse to fly these crazy trips. You may be home a lot to recover but let me tell you that from a medical perspective, your body does take a hit. If this happens, I'm right back to narrow bodies. You may be getting early but at least you're on the same time zone.

[makintw]

To steal a line from Marathon Man and repeat what Glassos asked already "is it safe?"

[luvly jubbly]

Sounds like any UK LoCo!!

Our minimum rest downroute is 10hrs in the hotel.:zzz:

[busmonkey]

Like others have said, this goes senior because it is a great schedule, least amount of time away from home. Now, if you are single, then maybe you would want long layovers.
Not to mention that it is north - south with only one hour time change, much less fatigue than pond hopping for instance.
Legal? under FAA FAR's - absolutely
Safe? 3 pilot crew, so definitely, yes!!

[Ali Sadikin]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/post_new.gif 30th May 2008, 06:20 #6 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4146647&postcount=6) Glassos (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=86163)

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 24


Well I haven't flown that particular trip but I've flown the EWR-GRU trip many times and it's very similar in terms of flight time and rest. Although it's a hard trip, it's very productive. Basically you're away from base for about 36 hours and you get 20 hours of flight time (Pay!). You fly the trip four times and you're done for the month. In other words you're at work for six days and you get 80 hours of pay.

Is it safe? It's certainly legal and if you do one of these trips a week, you get plenty of time for rest both prior to and after the trip. Plus you sleep really well for the eight to ten hours between legs. And you get some rest during each leg.

Incidentally, this trip goes very senior because of the time off aspect!

Flame away!


You can't have the cake and eat it as well!

busmonkeyLike others have said, this goes senior because it is a great schedule, least amount of time away from home. Now, if you are single, then maybe you would want long layovers.
Not to mention that it is north - south with only one hour time change, much less fatigue than pond hopping for instance.
Legal? under FAA FAR's - absolutely
Safe? 3 pilot crew, so definitely, yes!!

Definitely my dream schedule!

[Airmike767]

I flew this trip several times last year and can assure anyone that it is very difficult to cope with the fatigue involved. Mention was made of the relief pilot, they (CO) also have a policy of giving the relief seat in First to a pax and then providing a center section three seater in coach as the relief.

There have been the occasional pilot who had to roust a pax from the seats when he got to the back for his rest or had to cope with lost pillows and blankets from to/top of climb.

Unfortunately, there are always pilots whom will kill for this kind of a trip. However, the truely safe way to handle the trip is to make it a 36 hour layover...........but that kills the productivity!

Two all nighters with a ten hour layover took me three days to recoup from!

Airmike767

[411A]

And therein lies the problem, Airmike767, most pilots actually desire this type of short layover, so the company is only too pleased to accomodate.
This reminds me of the 'ole 707 days.
Pilots would bid for the absolute most consecutive off days, which would have the effect of directing most of the flying in either the first or last 15-day period of the month.
A study of PanAmerican at the time conclusively proved that...senior pilots that continually bid this type of flying, would retire at 60, and half would be dead by age 64.
Hurry up to the graveyard...not my cup of tea, I'm afraid.

[shorty2rj]

When it comes to fatigue we have to admit we can be our own worst enemy. I've flown with more guys that will cram their schedules up to FAR limits in order to get the days off afterword. Me I keep it simple, live in base with reasonable duty schedules.

Most of the guys that can hold EZE want this trip just like it is cause its got that elusive combo of Commuter Friendly and Productivity. Unfortunately that has become a priority over what I consider safe rest in recent years. Hence why a few d!p****s on the 777 wanted HKG to become a three day trip. Having the rest seat be three rows of coach is just insult to injury on our POS Contract '02...

[Finman]

One major LOCO in the UK has 10 hours min rest for crews that live an hour from the airport. This = about 6 hours available for sleep.....assuming you want to shower and have breakfast before getting in your car to return to work....! So 10 hours rest at a hotel provided by the company is luxury by comparison.

[johnfearsome]

One major LOCO in the UK has 10 hours min rest for crews that live an hour from the airport. This = about 6 hours available for sleep.....assuming you want to shower and have breakfast before getting in your car to return to work....! So 10 hours rest at a hotel provided by the company is luxury by comparison.


Jeez! Is this true? I thought a lot of guys in UK came down hard on a guy from the subcontinent when he mentioned about some locos having safety issues like this!

[FLCH]

Having the rest seat be three rows of coach is just insult to injury

Seeing how our NC is acting....... don't be surprised to see this negoiated down to one seat in coach !!

[gasbag1]

411A bang on. At times we are our worst enemy by saying it is "legal" or "safe". The FAR's are liberal and to make the pairing "efficient" you cram the flying into the shortest time frame.

Of course adding insult to injury sitting the steerage and trying to get some rest??? is a dream few of us have experienced.

[fly nice]

Sorry, I did not bother to search the thread to see if this was covered, but in my mind; delay inbound equals guaranteed delay outbound due to minimum rest required. Is that what CAL think of the SLF?