Reduction in Flying Pay on PVR

[Arthur's Wizard]

Although I have been aware for some time that my flying pay will half if I PVR, a recent conversation brought home just how unfair this rule is.

I was on a course recently with someone who will be leaving the services in the next few weeks and the subject of the reduction in flying pay came up. He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay', he will not be penalised at all. Compare this to myself who, on the enhanced rate, will lose approx £5000 (before tax) over the period of my PVR until my termination. We are both the same rank, we do very similar jobs and have similar experience. Is it right that one of us will lose 5K and the other will not lose a penny.

Unsurprisingly, I think this is unfair, but has anyone ever challenged it and if they have how far did they go? (if it has ever been challenged, I assume it was unsuccessful otherwise I guess we would all have known about it!)

[14greens]

not that i have checked if the information is correct, however i am led to believe that PVR is the only way out early now, NGR is no longer on the all singing all dancing JPA!
therefore the way of resigning as a right, with no drop in flying pay rate has been withdrawn

[Bannock]

With four years to pension I was offered a 5 year extension. Not sure what the future was holding I accepted. 5 sand pit tours later I decided enough was enough and decided to PVR at 22 year point. I wanted to leave the mob happy and proud of completing my engagement and take away some great memories.
I had my flying pay cut by 50% straight away and guess what ! sand pit here I come. My terminal leave starts the day I return.
Am I bitter about the way I have been treated after all this time ?
I will leave it up to you.

[B-Chops]

You put in the PVR you suffer the consequences - in my trade you don't get trained anymore - your choice!!! Cake and eat it comes to mind!

[sycamore]

Question is,is he PVR`ng,or retiring at a break point ? Why are you PVR`ng ? fed-up,no fun,going to fly for XXX or yyy? Why were you not on the `spine` if you`ve got similar experience,etc? What do you fly,assuming aircrew? How long have you been in? Why did you join in the first place ? If you are not committed to serving whatever you signed up to,then why should you get paid the same as everyone else who does ?How much are you getting-pay; at the moment,30,40,50k? or perhaps more ? Seems like you have`nt sussed out how to `organise` your career enough .Anyway,with a PVR it should be,` `My office,hat on, no c &b,here`s your clearance,and white feather,Clarance,24 hrs, good-bye`!

Harsh ??maybe,but remember...there are a lot of guys who gave a lot more,so you can have the choice to complain....and `wimp-out`!

Qualifications ?40 yrs,3 wars,3 crashes, a few medals,sense of humour-intact.....Syc.!!!

PS,I`ll bet you expected `Sympathy` !!!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Any chance of one of the Int guys decoding the above ..........:rolleyes:

[matty_w]

I'm guessing that Syc is Either a) Fj or b) ME.... Not very often I post on here but, well, you get my point!

If you work for air then, maybe, yeah, you serve your time, have a good laugh and crack on. Spare a thought for the 'other side' of the fence - funded by JHC but part of the RAF, (or vice versa depending upon the time of day!) I am willing to bet money on, that Arthur's Wizard comes from...

Seriously, life is different on either side of the fence... FACT!

[HEDP]

I am thinking some of you miss the point............

Two guys, both PVRing, one loses cash the other doesn't........

Its not about who stays in or even should he.....

Two guys, both leaving early for whatever reason, two different effects on pay until out............

The phrase RTFQ springs to mind......

In the specific case; fair or unfair is the question?

[Tiger_mate]

My office,hat on, no c &b,here`s your clearance,and white feather,Clarance,24 hrs, good-bye`!


Excellent idea, and then the CO could turn his own light off after giving himself a stiff talking to, for everybody else would have already gone. "Dear employer, I can be on your payrole tomorrow...."

White feather is a bit righteous from an ex-mil member though, for despite your medals, it is a very differant armed forces that we now live with.

As for the thread, it is no more unfair than having peers paid differant rates in the first place. Now what would be interesting is how long they are making you serve before collecting your 1250 off you. For departure durations also appear to be unfair amongst peers.

Once you have clicked the PVR button you cannot be sent on a previously unnotified OOA. You can only do an OOA if you had been notified before the PVR.

NGR can still be completed the old fashioned (paper) way via the Chief Clerk. A PVR can be rescinded, an NGR cannot. Once an NGR has been signed off, you have the departure date 18 months away that is set in stone. I have spoken to my Chf Clk about this very subject in the last 10 days.

However unfair life is, Good Luck with your future AW having bitten the bullet in the interim.

[Autorev]

HEDP,
Missing the point is all to common on these boards at the moment. It seems that a large section of users simply want to voice their own opinion regardless of relevance to the thread. So, instead of getting informed discussion and debate, all we get is petty narrow-minded sniping.

I guess that we need to remember that there are all types of serving and ex serving military that frequent this forum. This thread would appear to attract a lot of those who love the military so much they cannot countenance why anyone should be so disloyal as to wish to leave. However, some serving personnel also have a life outside the mob and due to changes in circumstances in that life, they are no longer willing to make the sacrifices they have previously.

Wizard
It certainly does seem unfair, although you and your oppo are serving under different terms and so reap the rewards or otherwise. It would also suggest that a challenge would be unlikely to succeed unless you could demonstrate a breach of employment law.
A peer of mine started a legal challenge to having to ammortise his 6 yrs post OCU. His flying trg had taken so long, through no fault of his own, that he had served nearly 5 yrs before completing his first OCU. After some very expensive legal advice he concluded that the reason that these challenges never seem to succeed is the length of time that they take to mount, makes them prohibitively expensive.

Bannock's example is unfortunately all too common. It is no surprise how many people leave feeling let down my the system that they have made such personal sacrifice for. A sad reflection of the state that we are in I'm affraid.

[[email protected]]

Arthurs Wizard - presumably you had the opportunity at some stage to transfer to PA and elected not to. If that is the case, you can hardly complain when someone else who did decide to change his terms of employment then benefits from this change, regardless of the fact you do the same job.

I agree that the reduction in Fg pay is a petty and unneccessary action but the policy has been transparent - as you say, you have known about it for a long time.

[Arthur's Wizard]

B-Chops, 1.4g, sycamore, et al,

Thanks for the input, very helpful!

For the record, I have served for 21 years, have been to the sandpit 9 times in the last 4.5 years, have 5 medals and I am leaving at my IPP. I had to PVR because I have an IRC. I couldn't have gone onto the PA Spine as I have never qualified for it...............I'm too young!! (no really!)

Hopefully, that will satisfy some of you who question my loyalty and/or moral fibre!

To those who tried to answer the orginal question, thank you. It appears that I will have to lump it.

[Ardua Nuff]

AW,

Similar time served, medals, wars and age.

My enhanced rate hasn't yet been halved (half PVR time done) - perhaps JPA is doing me a favour for once! Here's hoping.....

Loss of pension (signed over to 05 - why, oh why...) my biggest mistake.

AN

[nimblast]

AW,

I left on PVR last year, I expected my flying pay to be cut but JPA is so screwed up nothing was deducted, I kept expecting them to take it all back in one go, but it never happened.
Submit your PVR say nothing , you may be lucky like me.

[Brain Potter]

I entirely agree that the new regulations that cut Fg Pay in half on PVR are totally wrong. No other employer could get away with imposing such a change in conditions without extensive consultation and protest. This little amendment was brought in under the cloak of JPA with hardly a murmur from those it affects. The attitude of the "leadership" towards this frankly outrageous condition is "You are getting off the train - so who cares?" Ironically, as servicemen your only real form of protest against such conditions is to leave.

However, I think it is wrong to try to use the method of exit from PA spine as an comparison. Transfer to PA spine is by invitation and involves a significant change of terms and conditions. There is no flying pay as all the remuneration is salary. The PA spine guarantees service to 55 but gives no "options" before that time; the only way out is to PVR. Offering transfer to the PA spine is an incentive that allows the service to retain some experienced aviators who have already served the time that was expected, and any extra service they give is a bonus for the RAF. A punitive method of exit would severely reduce the likelihood of anyone signing on to PA spine, unless they are totally convinced that they will stay to 55 no matter what the service throws at them. I suggest that this latter category would be a very small indeed. The PA spine is trying to attract those who already know the pros and cons of life in the service and who will thoroughly consider all the small print. They are not just signing anything, like a wide-eyed 18 or 21-year old who is thinking only of the flying.

Arthur: I think you have every right to be aggrieved, but the true inequity is not the comparison with your PA spine colleagues, but with ground branches of equal pay - who give none of it up and walk away with much better pension. The real con is Flying Pay itself - there should simply be a different pay scale for aircrew that is properly pensioned and which can't have chunks knocked off at the whim of the beancounters.

PS: AN and nim - I have heard similar, but should it be advertised?

[Winch-control]

I also opted out in the last twelve month run up to the 22 yr point and was not penalised at all. Flying pay stayed the same...

[Role1a]

Another point being missed here is that Non PA Spine PVR (R = Release) PA spine PVR (R = Retirement). Perhaps that is the difference.

REF:AP 3393 and JSP 754.

R1a

[glad rag]

To clear things up

from OP

quote

"He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay',"


OK

So as the "other" does not receive FP at all where is your argument? :confused:

[Chicken Leg]

"He pointed out that as he is on the PA spine and therefore doesn't receive 'flying pay',"


OK

So as the "other" does not receive FP at all where is your argument?

On the PA Spine, your flying pay is added to your basic pay and is paid as one amount as opposed to getting basic pay plus flying pay (two separate amounts). This means that when someone on PA Spine PVR's they don't have their flying pay halfed because they don't technically receive flying pay.

Does that make sense????!!!!!! :confused:

[glad rag]

Thank you, I now see the OP's argument was not only about the pvr losses but the "system" of hiding the allowance for PA Spine..................

[Flt Lt Mac]

On the PA Spine, your flying pay is added to your basic pay and is paid as one amount as opposed to getting basic pay plus flying pay (two separate amounts).

Your flying pay is not added to your basic pay on the PAS. It is a totally separate pay scale that somebody on it can earn in excess of what they would have received if they were on the normal pay scales. There 35 levels that go all the way up to to £75000. Not bad if you can reach this level as a Flt Lt. Even NCA Masters can earn £58000. As a Master Aircrew on 44500 + the top rate flying pay this only equates to £51500 and a Flight Sergeant on the PAS can earn £54000 which equates to level 9 Sqn Ldr. So all those Ground branch Sqn Ldr's who have worked hard to get where they are are probably earning less than a FS/Macr PAS NCA.

[davejb]

Okay....
Assuming that the original post isn't grossly misrepresenting anything (I'm not suggesting that - it's just a caveat) then I personally have a great deal of sympathy for a guy who has put his time in, gone repeatedly in harm's way, and is losing out simply because at one point he chose A instead of B.

Look at it this way - part way through your career you are asked to guess whether you will end up with several stars and a private jet, or end up with 10,000 hours in your log book. based on this guess you then stand to make out like a bandit, or lose hand over fist.

That's complete b*llocks - if you do the same job at the same rank then you should get the same pay and benefits, this sort of thing just makes it look like every now and then you get to buy a raffle ticket.

You have my sympathy - which, from a retired SNCO probably means you really deserve it as we aren't famous for sympathy, and seeing as SNCO pensions and benefits are correlated to the evening paper round and Tesco shelf stacker rates. What you get as you exit, especially after long service, should not be a lottery. Now ask me how I feel about flying pay not counting towards salary for pension purposes after drawing it for 20 years or so. (Except for the year the medics totally *****d my paperwork up).

My sympathy also for the way the usual suspects have posted to further illustrate how their daily timetable amounts to:
0600 - Get up
0601 - Be grumpy, attain pain in the @ss status
2200 - Off to bed with Ovaltine, and 'How to be grumpy' sleep hypnosis tape.

Dave

ps - in light of NCA FS getting more than a groundy Sqn Ldr - as an ex NCO aircrew FS (NCA as you now call them <g>) I fail to see any problem with this at all... we are, after all, contrasting highly treained professionals with...ooops...better stop here.... (I'm grinning, honest, it's a wind up...) As for masters - well, anyome who can walk on water WHILST chewing gum always gets my vote!

Edited to correct spelling and add a PS in light of later posts...

[9.81m/s/s]

Arthurs Wizard,

As usual all the w**kers who have nothing constructive to say just start trying to incite an argument - don't stoop to their pathetic levels - they know who they are.

They are too stupid to see the contradiction and rather than talk in a sensible way they sound like five year olds " well in my trade...blah blah blah......you knew what you were doing........blah blah blah.......cake and eat it....blah blah blah"

For f***s sake grow up! If something is wrong it is wrong so have the fibre to say so - even if by resolving it you will not directly benefit !!!!

If no-one speaks up about anything then nothing will change.

Morons.


When I think that we all look out for each other through thick and thin, in a sandpit somewhere, on Comp grounds, on Aeromed evacs and then read some of the comments posted by certain individuals........it makes me hope they would turn up at the back of my aeroplane in some sh1thole somewhere asking for a lift home........and guess what.........

[RODF3]

I couldn't have gone onto the PA Spine as I have never qualified for it...............I'm too young!! (no really!)


AW

If you never "qualified" for PAS, how can you possibly have a grievance. You are on different TOS. You are not comparing like for like. The reduction in FP has been around for many years and as you say you were aware when you PVR'd (your choice). If you don't like the reduction, reverse your PVR, hope you get "offered" (you don't automatically qualify) PAS, then PVR.

Again it was your choice.

[Farfrompuken]

In terms of financial 'penalty' you may well find that you'll be far better off in a very short space of time.

£5K will probably be money very well 'spent'.

Whatever; good luck!

[peterperfect]

So what is the minimum (legal) time between PVRing and leaving the service ? ie when was the last time anyone wrote a letter to his/her CO politely saying they will be poking off in 30 days ? If so what were the consequences.

[Tenne]

Clearly 9.81m/s/s is on a personal crusade to resolve every Air Force issue without saying anything constructive, or as a balanced opinion.

He or she has got all the attributes of an aspiring Snr Off probably akin to the main man at Air Cmmd (Oh No!!), but clearly lets him or herself down by suggesting that certain comments are being posted to incite argument as opposed to provoking argument.

What this person fails to realise is that non-Aircrew personnel who spend considerably more time 'on the ground in theatre' then he or she; grow tired of the old Chestnut about flying pay...incentives...retention bonuses..,.etc. PVR rate amongst these people is at an all time high as they don't get anything anywhere near a daily rate of FP and when they see the threads of this FP discussion going from one extreme to another, you can understand their despair and frustration.

If this person is to single-handedly resolve all these issues then I suggest the following:

a. Avoid swearing in text, then you may have some credibility.

b. Avoid expletives such as 'Moron' because that 'Moron' might just save your life one day either in the Air or on the Ground.

c. Avoid comments to suggest that you can decide the fate of people who may or may not fly in your aircraft when their lives are at risk. (I'm assuming you have a balanced conscience)

d. Do a straw poll around all the Cmmd's, Stn's and Diplomatic posts. Ascertain how many Aircrew are still drawing FP when they havn't flown for years and avoid the prospect of going back on a Sqn like the Plague. Remove their FP (you did suggest that if something is wrong do something about it.. Well here is a golden oppotunity to do that. Perhaps that money saved could be an incentive to Aircrew like yourself to remain flying and Not PVR). Silly me this is the Air Force were are talking about!

e. As this is an Open Forum, ie anybody in the world can see it, then consider how you set your personal stall out as readers might misconstrue your opinions and credibility with reality........

f. Finally have you thought of swapping your flying suit for a Superman outfit if you think you can save the 'Inner Sanctum' of the Aircrew FP world without financial casualties.....?

[Mr Busby]

Just a thought but don't forget that if you (as an officer) PVR, you will take a 'hit' of a reduction in your pension and terminal grant despite having completed a full pensionable engagement. I think it's somewhere in the region of 5-8%. It only affects officers though.

[VinRouge]

I thought that was illegal? I THought they couldnt penalise your pension that you had already earned?

[Farfrompuken]

VR & Busby: With reference to the below:

you will take a 'hit' of a reduction ..... somewhere in the region of 5-8%.
and
thought that was illegal? I THought they couldnt penalise your pension that you had already earned?

The PVR rate is the standard pension rate. You get an extra percentage for completing your full term of service as a retention measure, making it perfectly fair.

However, even factoring this 'loss' in on PVR you may find that staying in to your full term is financially punitive compared to leaving on PVR. It's certainly true for those below 32ish.

The bonus of going early is you get to work for a professional outfit rather than this bankrupt organisation.

[Mr Busby]

Farfrompuken

However you dress it up, there are two rates of pension; one for having elected to leave on PVR terms and one for completing your full period of service and even if you had served the same period of time, there is a negative effect on your pension if you PVR.

As an example, using the AFPS pension codes for 2006/7 (retiring after 31 Mar 06) as an example, for a Flt Lt leaving after 16 years of reckonable service on normal retirement terms, he/she would receive an immediate pension of £11192. However, if the same officer had decided to PVR after 16 years reckonable service (ie they were signed on to complete say 20 years) they would only receive £9830 as an immediate pension (ie 12% less than if they hadn't PVR'd) and their terminal grant would also be affected by a similar amount.

The same table also shows figures for PA (or Spec Aircrew as it appears in the list). The same rule is not applied to 'ORs'. Once they have completed a pensionable engagement, they qualify for their pension and PVR has no affect on the amount they receive.

The regulations (AP3392 & QRs also used to contain an interesting piece about officers resigning their commission not being entitled to any retired pay but that they could receive a sum at the discretion of the Defence Council not exceeding the PVR rate!

[Biggus]

If there is injustice in the system best get Al R on the case - he is very hot on perceived injustices!!

[Ardua Nuff]

Beware....

If you PVR on the new pension scheme (AFPS05), you get nothing until 65 (except a resettlement grant) despite having done 16 years+ service.

My biggest mistake.

AN

[9.81m/s/s]

I don't like getting drawn into one way arguments but here are some advice/thoughts for TENNE :

1. If Non aircrew are tired of the old Flying Pay chestnut then why don't you decide not to read the Military Aircrew threads on PPRUNE ?

2. You are obviously new to PPRUNE - your first thread is an interesting one - so you obviously do not recognise the fact that some callsigns ( you do'nt mind me using the word callsigns do you - Top Gun and all that - aircrew again ) seem to enjoy inciting ( not provoking ) argument - you will get to see the pattern, you just need to get some time in as they say.

3. You imply that I have something against non-aircrew types by implying that I can decide their fate in some Godly manner - careful fella !!! I can't do my job without them, my best friends are them and they are often forgotten and undervalued - I'll take flak but not like that and not from you!!!

4. I have no stall to set out, no agenda. I work with some brilliant people and every day see more and more of our guys and girls doing things way beyond what is required in terms of skill, bravery and commitment. Families suffer at home, friends depart. I would like to see our personnel treated fairly and more importantly consistently across all trades regardless of job. So that is the nearest thing I have to having a stall - I get a little angry at times when people deliberately talk crap to merely stir the pot in an obvious manner - my language sometimes may not be to everyone's ( even my own ) taste - and for that I apologise - but that is a little bit of passion creeping in - I do not apologise for the emotion.

5. Finally you warn me of setting myself up and being misconstrued in my views - well I am not obliged to explain myself on a public forum to you but I am........ But perhaps you should re-read your post - it certainly implies that you do not like Aircrew - not saying that is the case but that is how it reads - be careful or you will end up sounding like many of the others on here.

[Biggus]

Ardua Nuff,

Not sure where you get your information from, AFPS details were widely enough advertsied when it first came in, and can still be accessed via MOD intranet.

Under AFPS you qualify for a 'full' pension after 18 years/reaching forty, whichever is the latter (is this where you lose out?).

Yes, if you leave after 18/40 but before 55 you don't get a pension, but you do get Early Departure Payments, which arrive every month - and look remarkably like a pension in all but name.

All the details are too long winded to go into here, and it was done to death on pprune when AFPS05 first came in.

The differences I can see are that if you leave before you have qualified for a 'full' pension, then on AFPS75 your preserved pension cuts in at 60, while in the case of AFPS05 the preserved pension starts at 65.

[Ardua Nuff]

Thanks Biggus

You are correct. Unfortunately my 16+ years served is literally that, 16 years + months. My 18/40 point defaults to 40 due to my age and that, I'm afraid, it too long for me. On AFPS75, I would have qualified for an option point.

You live and learn.

Seems like I can make up the difference this side of the fence quickly enough anyway.

AN

P.S. Another month of Enhanced - Thank you JPA!