Fuel prices - can we protest ?

[FullyFlapped]

Just been watching the truckers do their thing in protest against the obscene amount of duty which that corrupt shower of incompetents in government stick on the fuel - and good on 'em, says I.

I was just idly speculating what, if anything, we as a GA community could do by way of a protest, before the price of Avgas reaches the tipping point where schools start to fail and many others will be mothballing their aircraft because they can no longer afford to fly.

It's not an easy one : there are not that many of us to start with, and I reckon we tend to be a fairly apathetic bunch at the best of times. However, we can make a fair amount of noise, can't we ...

Highly co-ordinated, completely legal, well-targetted noisy protest, anyone ?

The Black Fingernail :ok:

[Mariner9]

Perhaps a more productive solution would be for you to write to the Chancellor with your suggestion of how cutting the duty on fuel would help the UK meet its (admittedly misguided) attempts to lower emissions and also to replace the missing tax revenue?:rolleyes:

How much should they cut duty by, say 30p? That would cost the country billions, and would only take the cost of fuel down to what it was at the time of the last fuel protest, ~90p.

[Human Factor]

I'd have trouble getting my 737 down the A40 so you'll have to think of something else.;)

[toolowtoofast]

i would think that GA is more of a pest to the masses than an advantage - all you're going to by protesting is use MORE fuel, and annoy MORE people. truckies are unfortunately providing a service, as opposed to your flying activities. i can't think of any protest that involved your means of transport that would be effective, apart from flying a bunch of 152s into heathrow airspace - now THAT would be effective at getting a message across

[FullyFlapped]

Perhaps a more productive solution would be for you to write to the Chancellor with your suggestion of how cutting the duty on fuel would help the UK meet its (admittedly misguided) attempts to lower emissions and also to replace the missing tax revenue?


Well, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but if you really think writing to Darling would achieve anything (other than a small increase in delivery emissions and the waste of more wood of course ...)

I honestly and genuinely do not believe that the huge duty levied on fuel has anything with genuine "green" ambitions - just another way of trying to fill the huge economic black hole they've created - but that's just my opinion, of course ...

And as for "missing tax revenues" - what about all the additional tax revenues they're raking in on top of the increased duty revenues ? Feel free to tell me how these extra billions are being used to save the planet ?

There, see, you've gone and got me started now ... ;)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

good on 'em, says I
Well, what I says is "when oh when are they going to get the message, and put the stuff on the rails where it belongs"? If £1.30 doesn't do it what on earth is it going to take?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Feel free to tell me how these extra billions are being used to save the planet ?
In time honoured fashion, carbon reduction goes like this.

(1) Government decides on a national target for emissions reduction.

(2) Government divides the overall total into little bits, one target for each part of the country.

(3) Government imposes on local councils the duty to each meet its share of the overall target.

(4) Government gives councils an extra 0p to spend on these extra duties.

So ... er ... yes, you're right, where have the billions gone I wonder. They sure haven't ended up with the councils who have to meet the targets.

[PompeyPaul]

write to the Chancellor with your suggestion of how ... to replace the missing tax revenue?
Funny how they don't have the dosh to cut petrol taxes, or even provide free University education to all, but find it easy enough to stump up the £5Billion for a war in Iraq that the vast majority of UK people didn't want. £5Billion is more than enough to cover the easing of petrol tax, free education and would avoid the economy sliding into recession.

No, that's far to sensible....

[Zulu Alpha]

The fuel price increase means that Alistair D has a significant increase in the VAT per litre. This is far more than the 2p duty he expected. Avgas has gone up by 30p/litre, of this increase 4.5p is extra VAT.

I heard a government minister on BBC Newsnight say "as the price of fuel goes up the percentage taken by the govenment falls". This is an outrageously misleading statement to make as it completely avoids the fact that the actual amount of tax (VAT) goes up with the price of the oil and provides the government with a windfall.

I suspect that there is not much aviation can do...apart from supporting the lorry drivers protest.

DJ

[Mariner9]

One thing I will say is that it is (or should be) now clear that the current high fuel cost has shown the fallacy in the argument that high taxation will reduce demand and is thus "green" :ugh:

[Mike Cross]

the obscene amount of duty which that corrupt shower of incompetents in government stick on the fuel - and good on 'em, says I.

Far dos, but the amount of duty that you pay on your avgas is less than what you pay for the fuel in your car.

Unleaded 51.52 pence per litre
Diesel 54.68 pence per litre
Avgas 28.84 pence per litre

Are you perhaps advocating that we should pay more on avgas to help the truckers?;)

One thing I will say is that it is (or should be) now clear that the current high fuel cost has shown the fallacy in the argument that high taxation will reduce demand and is thus "green"
Don't know why you think it a fallacy. In my case it caused me to go from driving a 2 litre petrol car doing 33 mpg to a diesel one doing 46 mpg on average, and I certainly wouldn't go back to the old VW Camper I used to have that did around 24 mpg.

[flyems]

RANT ALERT: Cynical views expressed in this posting about climate change, taxes, government and Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL), if my personal views are likely to offend you please don’t read it...

The guys in numbers 10 and 11 respectively understand the principle of Elasticity of Price very well, and they are aggressively applying it here...

If they had the guts to tackle this head on and seriously reduce utilisation they would up the price to £3, £4 or even £10 per litre. But this would make driving/flying (anything that uses the black gold) unaffordable. GA, apart from a couple of people with deep pockets will cease to exist, and a lot of airlines will simply have to stop operating. Similarly the principle of higher road tax on the evil gas-guzzlers, have the courage of your conviction Mr11 to up the annual road tax to £5000, then you will make people think very carefully before they buy these machines that are supposedly destroying our planet. Very few think about the fact that people that drive these vehicles are already contributing more to his coffers, because they are buying more fuel at the rather inflated price... The knock-on effect from drastic measures like this will be significant, and 10&11 knows that very well.

I read a while ago, and I hope someone has the accurate stats somewhere, that GA used less fuel in the entire 06/07 fiscal year than was estimated to have been consumed by the combined vehicles in a single morning or afternoon commute in London. Seems mind-boggling, but quite plausible.

I am comfortable that GA is going to become the target of taxes to breaking point. This all in the name of green issues, our planet quite frankly is facing its largest assault in terms of number of people that currently populate it, shortage of oil, food, water and whatever else you would want to include in that list is as direct flowdown from this one factor. No attempt is being made to reduce or contain population growth, why are there no taxes on family size? Simply because there is no way of attempting something like that without ending up on the wrong side of the human rights activists, which would be way more difficult to manage than having to deal with a couple of squealing "rich" flyboys and flygirls complaining about spending more money on something we have been made to feel guilty about, the 'climate-change' monster. The rumoured increase in Jet-A1 taxes for domestic use is arguably the best example of this. In excess of 99% of Jet-A1 is used internationally by commercial operators, people that clearly have spoken with 10&11, and have the power to dissuade them from imposing this type of tax because it would harm their business. Why can this not be extended to the smallest user is obvious, we, the GA community, are prepared to pay handsomely to maintain GA.

The balance sheet of our country is not looking good at this stage. Billions are needed because, apart from a significant outflow of cash to placate a voter base that in turn contribute very little if anything to the budget, we were taken into a very expensive war in the Middle East. Personal views on the appropriateness of that involvement aside, it remains a very expensive little excursion, and the current government has to fund it somehow or another. I guess that part of the calculations would the significant probability that the current government would not be in power beyond the next election, considering current voter sentiment. That does make it a little easier for 10&11, because they only need to balance the books for another couple of years, and leave the long-term ramifications for someone else to resolve.

Bottom line is that governments will take the path of least resistance to generate the income they need to fund their existence, whilst upsetting the fewest possible voters... GA does not have the critical mass to influence voting, but we certainly will continue to haul our chequebooks out to maintain our passion, and 10&11 knows that.

Over a barrel? You decide, I say more than likely yes..!

Off my soapbox and donning my flameproof suit at this stage.....

[scooter boy]

How's about pressing on across the desert and seizing the rest of the oil for ourselves? I mean our army are already there and ready to go.

This would also save British Aerospace millions in hookers/gifts/sweeteners for already immensely wealthy arab royals/officials.

Seems to make sense, no?

SB

[radicalrabit]

Historically governments have supported using transport as a means to put profits into share holders pockets as a priority instead of its primary objective of moving people. You cant operate public services effectively and privately as has been proved over the last two decades. You need to put people into transport that is safe clean effective comfortable and which get people to where they want to be and when they want to be there. All of these attributes are missing from the system we are left with now. You put the price up and people head for the roads in cars. when they drop the fares to make the system attractive to users they complain that the share holders wont stand for it. We need to develop a system that works because the people use it. Make the alternatives to cars and lorries cheaper is the answer not making cars and lorries more expensive.

Now ,look at the French way , sod the disruption lets blockade the harbours and ports and road links stop all the summer traffic mayhem to the masses....

You dont get peaceful change when you are dealing with ministers and civil servants who are in their comfort zones passing the buck and reaping the financial gains they can find for themselves and not making political waves. When did we ever have a politician that would stand up and be counted and actually do something effective... nooooo way to radical...

Going back to the original thread....... Fuel costs will never stabilise while certain governments reap money in by keeping the world unstable.

When this country finally gets a government that thinks for its self things may improve but I wont be holding my breath. The best fuel protest would be to all turn up at the petrol station and fill up so the pumps run out. That way you get your fuel at todays prices and not next weeks at 5p per litre more. When the roads are jammed and the politicians are inconvenienced maybe they will get off thier fat a...ses and do something.

Protest ? in this country? ha ha ha dont make me laugh most people dont even know the folks who live on the same street any more, have no local shops or businesses, have become insular unsociable and pretty much uncaring burdened by litigation threats and stupid politically correct garbage and are no longer free to say who they hate and why they hate them. :yuk: end of rant

[pulse1]

I heard a government minister on BBC Newsnight say "as the price of fuel goes up the percentage taken by the govenment falls". This is an outrageously misleading statement to make as it completely avoids the fact that the actual amount of tax (VAT) goes up with the price of the oil and provides the government with a windfall.



This is the sort of claptrap they came out with during the last petrol crisis caused by the lorry drivers. It was even more depressing that none of the others on that programme challenged him.

IMO the last petrol crisis is when New Labour started down the slippery slope as far as credibility is concerned. Their progress has accelerated downwards ever since. Don't they ever learn?

[tangovictor]

I'm sure we can all think of activeties that waste fuel, Cruise ships use more fuel than any other type of transport,
the major problem we have ( GA ) along with club type motor / motorcycle racing etc, is. Its seen by many ( those who do not take part ) as a totally
uneccessary waste of fuel.
It may be a better idea to just accept the price hike's rather than bring it to the attention of those, who may consider taxing the living daylights out of it
Just a thought.

[niknak]

I know for a fact that the fuel company who supply avgas at our place make no profit from selling it, they occassionally break even and most of the tim e make a small loss.
They make all their profit Jet A1 and only supply avgas because the airport company insist that they do so as part of the overall concession.

I suspect that the majority of suppliers at airports are in the same position and that smaller airfields who supply avgas are doing so at cost price &/or possibly only break even.

The profit made by the major suppliers of avgas is minute compared to other products and demand has reduced considerably in the last few years.

Protest as much as you want, it'll make no difference at all other than make suppliers think twice about if it's worth making it at all.

[Graham Borland]

The best we can do is vote with our feet and stop buying the stuff. That'll hit them where it hurts!

Oh, wait...

[S-Works]

IMO the last petrol crisis is when New Labour started down the slippery slope as far as credibility is concerned. Their progress has accelerated downwards ever since. Don't they ever learn?

No they don't they are driven by the greed of taxation. They might try and sweeten is with a further delay in the duty rise but they will never cut duty. It is worth to much for them to squander elsewhere.

[SkyHawk-N]

FullyFlapped wrote:
It's not an easy one : there are not that many of us to start with, and I reckon we tend to be a fairly apathetic bunch at the best of times. However, we can make a fair amount of noise, can't we ...

Highly co-ordinated, completely legal, well-targetted noisy protest, anyone ?

FF, are you suggesting we burn our bras? :uhoh:

[ChampChump]

My 1940's technology delivers 15 litre per hour on mogas and given the current fuel prices I'm pertty happy to hang onto it.

Me too. After a rather heavy week at work in the transport industry, over a bank holiday weekend affected just a little :rolleyes: by the French, all I want to do is go and burn some money in my old machine.

If I time it right, I may run out of health & wealth about the same time as we run out of oil. If not, I'm enjoying it now. :E

[Captain Smithy]

It is interesting to note that NuLabour are blamed for the record levels of taxation we now see on fuels for "Environmental" (sic) reasons.

However, whilst greedy Labour is largely at fault, many seem to forget that it was John Major's Tory party of the mid 90's that introduced a little ditty known as the fuel price escalator, which in simple terms was a way to massively increase tax on fuel - for "Environmental" (sic) reasons. This turned Britain's fuel from being among the cheapest in Europe to one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive.

So in reality we should blame the other lot (Tories) for lumping us with mega-high prices in the first place - the current lot have just carried on with it because it's a nice little earner.

Secondly, on the subject of "cut tax and we'll lose lots of money", the simple solution is... spend less. For instance, giving money/houses etc. to illegal immigrants, giving handouts to lazy boneidle scroungers, chucking more money at the NHS so they can employ yet more useless overpaid "managers", giving money to MPs so they can buy tellys from John Lewis/kitchen suites from IKEA/second homes etc. - cut all that mince out and we shall see substantial savings.

Thirdly, I heard the old "Oil is running out" story trotted out by the PM on TV tonight. Mince. If Oil is running out then why are we still finding large numbers of enormous Oil/Gas fields everywhere in the world?

What there is a shortage of is truth and common sense displayed by those who are meant to lead this country, but instead tie themselves up in their own indulgences and self-service. Oink Oink!

Smithy

[flyems]

nice little earner A very serious indictment on any government... They're not there to make money, they're supposedly there to serve the populus, not fleece 'em....

Oil is running out Oil is indeed not running out, we are simply running out of places to extract it from without NIMBY's having the final say...

[Julian]

//RANT ON//

'Environmental' reasons given by Government/County Councils/Etc. really p1ss me off. I am sure that if someone actually sat down and worked out how much money had been collected in extra taxes/charges to put towards green issues against what had actually been diverted and spent on said causes there would be a massive gap - it just get diverted to other expenditure that Gordon needs to subsidise.

The 'Green Tax' is just a convenient big scam.

As has been previously hinted out, the amount of fuel consumed by GA in the big picture is probably minuscule compared to the Majors and therefore they are unlikely to listen to us. The truckers obviously have a bit louder voice than we do considering what they spend, one of my best mates is Transport Manager for a local haulage company and they are really feeling the pinch, they are even turning jobs to London away because they cannot afford to do them when they take in account not only fuel price increases but also the lovely ‘Pollution Tax’ that Red Ken invoked!!!!

Bins are now only collected every fortnight in our area to ‘encourage recycling’, it does nothing of the sort. You still have the same amount of rubbish generated just each in its own pile now – it is still sat outside rotting however the council have halved their collection expenditure and put Council Tax up!

Car tax is going through the roof and they seem to keep putting it up as long as they think they can get away with it. Because I drive a 4x4 I automatically get hit with a £400 bil (soon to be £455), why??? What about saloon cars these days that employ permanent 4 wheel drive? There is just no logic to the road tax pricing. On top of that if I drove a saloon car I would be stranded at home as it would not get out of our village when it snows and if I did get to work the exhaust would get ripped off each day due to ground clearance – you cant win!!! Meanwhile Quentin the hippy is driving round in his 1978 diesel Peugeot estate car throwing our more pollutants than Chernobyl and only paying £130 a year!

Anyway, I am all worked up now, I am off to burn down a convenient rain forrest to calm down again…..

//RANT OFF//

J.

[jez d]

I have also heard that the amount of fuel used by GA in one year amounts to 15 minutes of London rush-hour traffic. I've also heard that it equates to less than the amount of fuel that evaporates from car fuel tanks in a year.

However, I would be very concerned about lobbying the Guvmint to lower Avgas duty rates in the form of some public debate or petition on the PM's website, given Avgas is currently taxed at half the rate of road fuel. Can you imagine the response from Joe Public if they heard that 'millionaire' pilots were paying half the duty rate that are paying for their road fuel?

[J.A.F.O.]

Not a GA protest but I think that everybody who uses an internal combustion engine in any way to get to work should phone in and say "Sorry, can't afford to get to work today."

One day of that would focus the attention no doubt.

[Captain Smithy]

Just a wee correction there Julian, Quentin the hippy won't drive a 1978 Peugeot, rather he'd probably be one of those cyclist idiots that plague streets everywhere.

I oft ponder the same thing JAFO.

The fact is is that nonsensical and unworkable, discriminatory, judgmental, restrictive, oppressive ideologies such as Environmentalism have absolutely no place in any free and civilised society, and most certainly have no place in any Government.

Smithy

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Not a GA protest but I think that everybody who uses an internal combustion engine in any way to get to work should phone in and say "Sorry, can't afford to get to work today."
What's going to have to change is the unsustainable notion that everybody can choose to live and work in different places with no public transport between them.

[Captain Smithy]

What's going to have to change is the unsustainable notion that the populace have to keep paying more and more for an over-inflated and useless Government that tries to dictate to people how they should live their lives and removes freedoms from them.

[Supersport]

Sorry to be a pessimist but, I think that if Government did cut duty on fuel, the loss sustained by the Government would be too big and would only be balanced elsewhere by quietly increasing other taxes.

Although I 100% agree with the fundamentals behind a protest and such like, I definately feel it wouldn't make the 'average persons' financial situation any easier.

There is only one solution if you want cheap fuel and that is to find your own oil well, extract it and refine it yourself... whilst keeping uber quiet about it. Chance of that are pretty much nil so it's a lose - lose situation to me :* which sucks big time.

[flyems]

Joe Public if they heard that 'millionaire' pilots were paying half the duty rate that are paying for their road fuel

It gets me going when some suggest that all I am doing in this country is to pillage and rob the economy and those people that do not partake of one of my passions…

‘Millionaire pilots’ invariably contribute the following items to keep this economy afloat, including but not limited to:

1. PAYE in HUGE chunks, because they are either employed, or employers,
2. Tax on fuel for their vehicle(s),
3. Road tax for their vehicle(s),
4. Create employment in aviation,
5. Council tax in HUGE chunks for their residences, because I cannot imagine many of them, if any, in benefit housing,
6. Huge chunks of VAT for equipment, training, etc, etc,
7. Taxes on aviation fuel.


Taxes should not be punitive, should not be tweaked and adjusted to reflect my income/asset base/activities etc, it should be levied equally to those that partake, or could potentially partake of the benefits provided by those taxes.

Alternately people with other expensive hobbies, i.e. photography, parenthood, car racing, etc etc should be subjected to the same persecution....

the loss sustained by the Government would be too big and would only be balanced elsewhere by quietly increasing other taxes

The alternate would be to curb expenditure?

to find your own oil well, extract it and refine it yourself... whilst keeping uber quiet about it

Uber quiet indeed, HMRC is now demanding taxes on a per unit basis from those that are making their own biofuel from whatever raw products, because it is fuel after all..!!

What's going to have to change is the unsustainable notion that the populace have to keep paying more and more for an over-inflated and useless Government that tries to dictate to people how they should live their lives and removes freedoms from them.

I say the Captain should get the keys for No10.....

[Mariner9]

Strikes me that if you lot must mount a flying protest, why not all fly to France and send HMC a combined drawback demand instead? :E

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The alternate would be to curb expenditure?
Thing is, that's not what the punters vote for.

Yes you get plenty of "shock horror tax rise" stories in the media, but a government that tries to curb expenditure gets just as much "shock horror public service cuts" stories.

Of course any particular individual can point to areas of public "waste", being expenditure on services that they personally don't feel like using, but I can assure you that no public service exists without popular demand! - cutting a service that nobody wants is a dead easy way for a public authority to save money, and they most certainly take the dead easy route if available.

(I know this stuff, as a councillor I do it all the time. There is pretty well nothing you can cut which won't result in seriously adverse press and lost votes, because every public service is useful to somebody.)

[Captain Smithy]

I can see where you're coming from Gertrude and, to a certain extent, agree with you... although I think more and more people (including myself) are questioning the value of certain services/sections of Govt. and are wanting a better say in how their money (tax) is being used.

Personally it always strikes me as completely rediculous how we can have shortfalls in cash for services, which then get cut to ribbons, and yet other blatantly obvious areas of waste, e.g. overstaffing, stupendous expenses (tellys from John Lewis, second homes, taxi trips etc.), inflated salaries, increasing layers of needless management (Re:overstaffing) etc. get blatantly ignored.

For example, here in Edinburgh, the City Centre is being dug up, causing chaos for commuters and businesses, for a tram scheme which 1) Nobody wants and 2) will cost £600million. And yet this is being propagated, nay forced upon us, by the same Council who is insisting on cuts all over the place to services. And yet we are having this £600million pile of excrement heaped upon us - at a time when the Council (like all other Councils in Jockland) are in major debt. Also, instead of taking the bus as the anti-car (Re:anti-freedom) Council frequently lecturers us to, instead they take taxi trips everywhere at the cost of thousands of pounds, funded by the residents of Edinburgh. Additionally there was an interesting story a few months back about the Canteen at Coonsil HQ... instead of paying for their food they (Councillors/employees) operated an "honesty box" system of donating money. Of course, nobody payed anything. Do as I say, not as I do. Oink Oink!

Anyway, sorry for drifting the thread, back to the fuel. How could we protest? The problem is that if commercial operators were to join in any protest it would most likely backfire because AVTUR is untaxed... potential major publicity boo-boo which could make things worse.

Smithy

[juststartin]

I dont think companies like Shell and mobil making record breaking profits helps peoples moods either.

65% (approx) of the cost per litre goes into the governments coffers.

I dont think there is anything we can do in reality, being typically British we just lay down and take it - and then just bitch about it, crying how crap our government is and how we always get shafted....even a change of government wouldnt change that - they are always in it for themselves.

To be honest, theres that may protests going on in Trafalgar Square every day, with everything from Free Tibet to this that and the other, I dont think anyone would notice.

Going down the route of the truckers (not literally in planes of course) trying to cause disruption to make people take notice will only succeed in pi55ing people off