For MAS Pilots ONLY Pt.2

[OldAce999]

Now that all the Taliban management pilots had been kicked out of their office when are they going to oust the remaining ones in the training department. Especially the hot tempered one who punches pilot on Base Checks. Also the one who design out of scale diagrams to catch pilot on their check rides.

[Baby Boo]

Oh dear me! Do you actually want to start it over again Ace? Well, it has been a hilarious read....lengthy, but quite funny to see all these ppl venting their anger at the management initially, and then at each other. Ah well! I hope when I grow old, I won't be so bitter and find something better to do with the rest of my days.

I'll check by again to poke my nose where it's not wanted and see whether they'll be back to huff and puff and blow the airline down. Such an embarrassment!! Is this what they say...washing your laundry in public or the likes of it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Take care now Ace. :D

[Usman]

Luckily down here in Malaysia it is just war of words. If it were to happen in Afgan some people would get their heads chopped off.

[OldAce999]

Do anyone knows why until today the British CAA do not recognise Malaysian ATPL ?

In other word if you have a Malaysian ATPL you cannot get a job in UK or Europe.

[PILOST]

Old Ace....CAA doesn't recognize any other license... PERIOD.Just recently did they conformed to EU requirements & allow EU states license.

Heck!They even didn't recognize Hong Kong licenses (even when they colonised them), not to mention FAA and CASA.So what's the big fuss?

I think you're not even a pilot...... just like to stir sentiments......For the uninformed (which means you Old Ace) any contracting ICAO state will acknowledge another ICAO state licenses'.It is then up to the individual state to set their own conditions prior to issuing licenses based on the strength of their respective previous licenses.

Give it up Old Ace....you've just proved yourself that you're not in the aviation field.

:cool:
PILOST

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: PILOST ]

[Usman]

Why Pilost you feeling guilty that you paid RM$10,000 under the counter to get your ATPL.

[Bob Hawke]

Just for info. Contracting states are ONLY required to recognise your license to the equivalent of a Private License Standard only, under the Annexes of ICAO governing license standardisation, the SARPS.

Thereafter the licensing authority can do what ever they want as far as CPL and ATPL is concerned. It becomes a discretionary issue for the local authority.

And that is why! If you want it changed, get involved with ICAO, and watch how fast changes happen. NOT!

Regards, Bob the Hawke.

[OldAce999]

Once upon a time in 1965 the CAA does recognise Malaysian ATPL as all the exam papers were being marked in UK and they were well invigilated. Even British pilots sit for their exam in Malaysia knowing full well it will be recognized in Britain.

Then in 1974-1976 along come this M***** X**** from the DCA licencing who goes around collecting RM$1000-2000 to give away the question papers before the exam.

This infuriate the CAA as they found out that some of the answer papers were either copied straight from the Avigation notes or were copied from other candidates. From 1976 CAA stopped recognising the Malaysian ATPL.

During that time there were only 200 Malaysian pilots and only 25% really passed the British ATPL. After the leak in 1975 another 50% of their number got their ATPL. The remaining 25% only pass their ATPL after 1990 when the objective exams were introduced.

Around 1985 when pilot in MAS were about 300 there was another leak under X***** of licencing where they paid from RM$5000-10,000.

So in all you can say only 50 pilots (of the original 200) really pass through their hard work and sweat. Nearly a hundred just cheated and the remaining 50 passed the easier exams in the 90's some by using hand signals.

So you can say more than 1/2 of the senior pilots had no credibility. And they are now responsible for the Operation of MAS fleet. No wonder there are so many cock-up and corruption in Flight Operation.

[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Sick Squid]

Those are some quite serious allegations of corruption in the post above. It may all be public domain, they may be tried and convicted, or they may all be innocent. I don't know, so have removed the names to err on the side of caution.

People, please DO NOT NAME NAMES in these forums, particularly where there are allegations of wrongdoing attached to it.

Alternatively, if you just must name names, then please provide the Towers with your name and address (to be passed on to the lawyers of the named parties at their request) an indemnity and binding agreement to pay any legal fees the bulletin board incurs because of your post. Do all of this before posting, and the owners of the site will decide whether or not the post can go ahead.

Now all of this is general advice. The specific names above may already be fully in the public domain, and if they are then I humbly apologise for wasting your time with this post, and for the edits. However, as moderators we have to take the safest route to keeping the good people who pay for your website fun on here out of a dark English courtroom.

Carry on.....

[ 08 November 2001: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]

[Bob Hawke]

I always wondered how I got my ATPL. Now I know, I paid to much.

[PILOST]

Sick Squid, it's indeed a very serious allegation.However, I do believe that they just remain allegation.To err on the safe side is indeed wise, however the aviation community here is very small & I do believe the person mentioned must have known it by now.

Old Ace have been ranting in this forum & the previous MAPA's BB which was flooded by his spamming.He's just like the proverbial "empty vessel".To claim that more than half of the pilot community here are having a 'kopi O lesen' is very serious indeed.If he was right then MAS will have an accident every other day for having pilots of this calibre.However, their track record proved otherwise.The pilots who left for greener pastures have proved themselves too in foreign airlines....even up to the point of being appointed to management & training post.

FL600, please don't insult my intelligence or yours.FYI I hold A UK,CASA,FAA & naturally Malaysian ATPL.All earned the hard way.

Safe Flying All.

:cool:
PILOST

[OldAce999]

Pilost talking craps again. After getting his Malaysian ATPL why would one want to go and sit even for the British ATPL again. One ATPL (old one) is good enough torture. Anyway I’ve never heard in MAS or DCA anyone having multiple ATPL and had sat for each and every one of the papers.

The pilot with the caliber and had honestly passed the ATPL are the one who had gone to greener pasture. What about you Pilost wouldn’t you too like to earn RM$35,000-45,000 per month with 15% tax, or is your multiple license not good enough.

As for MAS it is a technically bankrupt airline 2 years ago. They should have close half of it down rather than being in a state of denial and wasting the country resources. At least SAS had the moral courage to do it recently. What do you expect with so many “kopi O” management and pilots there is not much brainpower left. All the real brain had flown away years ago.

[MR. Login]

Hoi Oldman...you've succeeded time and again to stir things up. This far anyway. What is it with you, some kind of major frustration I gather. I would suggest for you to seek help. I thought Australia is the perfect retirement place for you, drink some gold by the water..blah, blah, blah , but obviously the world is not enough. Why dont you take a trip to Pat Pong and try to lighten up.

"Do anyone knows why until today the British CAA do not recognise Malaysian ATPL ?"

Wow, you're the expert, so next time, don't bother insulting our "bird brains" and wasting the time you have left in your retirement in asking the question in the first place. Just tell us...we beg for more.

FYI I too have multiple ATPLs. go figure.

Rest in **** old man.

[Usman]

There is no smoke without fire. Pilost if you think it is just allegation to cover up all your dishonest friends who got their ATPL then some basic is wrong here.

The CAA must have some serious reason for not recognising the Malaysian ATPL in 1976.
And the reason is corruption and cheating by some Malaysian pilots who are now serving MAS.

So there goes your credibility.

[Marcellus Wallace]

I sat for the International Papers conducted by UK CAA at Oxford in 1995 mind you and still the Certificate says "Not valid for issuance of a UK ATPL". We were offered places to take the UK ATPL exams subject to also taking additional papers on Signals/RT and also UK Air Law. I declined for lack of time.

There's more to it than some of our alleged predecessors obtaining their ATPL in dubious fashion. :D

[Goldwing2000]

As usual pilost is covering up for his many friends who have not made the grade legally and above board.Try brown nosing somewhere else will you but enough is enough cos you're flogging the wrong horse here. It's common knowledge among MAS pilots and the pilot fraternity in Malaysia that there were serious breaches in exam invigilation and monies being handed over for answers to exam questions. Why would the CAA suddenly decide not to recognise the Malaysian ATPL,if they had done so years before? After all, with the number of students taking exams in Malaysia it was quite a cash bonanza for them not to mention that all exams questions were set by the CAA and came from UK and the papers were sent back to the CAA for marking. The other gripe that the CAA had was the 3 resits and start all over rule. Well, for many years the DCA decided in their wisdom that certain pilots(those that couldn't pass 3 topics in one go and there were many of them!) could resit one exam at each seating until all were passed. This was in contrary to CAA rules but let's be honest, if that didn't happen half the guys flying today would have some other profession.

---------------
where ever you go,there you are!

[Usman]

What it mean is that after 1976 if any Malaysian want to obtain a British ATPL he must sit for the papers in UK for it to be recognised by CAA. The CAA want to ensure that there is no leaks and the exams invigilated properly to ensure the integrity of their ATPL.

In other word the Malaysian ATPL are just craps.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Hey read my earlier post. I sat for the ATPL exams in UK and still the certificate bears "not valid for issuance of UK ATPL". So there's more to it than what has been discussed here. Granted you need to be in possession of a UK CPL first in order to obtain a UK ATPL. Which means you will have to convert your licence by sitting for the UK airlaw etc.

Of course there are amongst us some fortunate enough to be trained in UK and are in possession of a UK CPL.

Anyhow..what's all the fuss about. We all possess ICAO recognised ATPL and are allowed to fly in and out and over so many territories which may or may not recognize our ATPL. Smells of protectionism if you ask me. If our ATPL's were such duds then I am sure UK CAA would want a list from Malaysian DCA with regard to those pilots with ATPL obtained before 1976 and only allow them to man aircraft flying over UK!

FYI...seven up...of course some here would claim..."your wan objective!no essay writing etc. etc." The way I see it, we will never measure up to the standards of some of these old ace's. "those days..." Can you imagine cockpit conversation starting with those 2 words? Glad I was never on the B744. :eek:

[OldAce999]

Marcellus Wallace:

You keep repeating “So there's more to it than what has been discussed here” but had not tell us what it is.

Those of us who had sat the CPL & ATPL in Malaysia before 1976 were recognized by the CAA for issue of a British ATPL provided we sit for extra papers like UK Air Law etc.

In the 70’s and 80’s there were some Malaysian pilots who wanted to convert their license to UK ATPL and was told to resit for the whole papers in UK all over again as the Malaysian ATPL was not recognized even though the exams papers and the marking came from UK when they sat for their exams in Malaysia.

So those of you here who claimed to have a UK ATPL are just full of horse****, unless you passed the ATPL in Malaysia before 1976.


Marcellus Wallace I hope that you are not one of those in the new generation who we find climbing on the transport and sitting across the aisle who do not bother to say Hi or Hello to the senior pilots sitting next to you(it's not to say we’re hardup for it). Except putting on a grumpy face with your brand new shiny 4 bar epaulet. I guess you are the lucky ones who joined in the early 90’s who had not been through the mills during the rapid expansion. Well time will catch up with you….mark my words.


Marcellus Wallace says: "those days..." Can you imagine cockpit conversation starting with those 2 words? Glad I was never on the B744”

We are more than a generation apart. In the old days what is important is communication and however reserved the old British Captains were we try to get along with him so that we can get as much knowledge and his experiences which are not written in books. So on nite-stops we take the initiative to call him for B’fast,Lunch,Dinner or whatever, a practice that is very lacking today. That communication is still valid today for good working relation and safety.


There will always be “those days” as those days when you are on a Base Check on a real aircraft the instructor will shut down an engine on you after V1 and woe betide the pilot who shut down the good engine on his drill. His reputation will go down the drains for many years to come.

Whatever it is, these old farts had flown for almost 40 years with no major accident in the Malaysian Airline. Let see whether these young Turks of the nineties can do better. Only time will tell.

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: OldAce999 ]

[Marcellus Wallace]

OldAce999...thanks for the warning. I have flown as co-pilot to so many captains, young, not so old and really old guys. Some whom I look up to with high regard and some whom I would never plan to emulate. However, never have any of them ever told me ..."hey your ATPL is crap!" The most I got was a comparison how difficult it was those days essay writing etc. So I am pretty sure I have never flown with you.

I hane never ridden a bicycle to school and I never walked bare foot to the sundry shop with a kerosene lamp. So yes ..we are from a different generation. I accept that fact. Have you? Admit it, we are all different. I know how much you would like all of us to go fly single pioneers or tiger moths during our ab-initio but they just don't have those around anymore.

The unscrupulous individuals in the 1970's have not done us a favour. But a great many of us have studied hard for our ATPL's and passed them with flying colours. The issue of UK not recognizing our licence goes beyond what happened in the 70's. Maybe they are just protecting their job market. Maybe they perceive our standards to be inferior? I don't know. But I doubt the reason you gave be the sole factor.
:mad:

[Usman]

Well those of you who had worked hard for the ATPL why you worry about it. The knowledge is always with you. The ones who cheated I hope the lack of knowledge will not catch up with you someday.

[OldAce999]

And do you gentlemen who passed the ATPL the hard way knows the culprit who heated,copied and paid bribes to get the ATPL. It's none other than the Taliban pilots in the 70's and 80's in the majority.

They went on to take over the management of Flight Operations in the 90's to issue us such stupid directive as to fly from LHR-KUL with no diversion fuel at the single runway destination.

[Usman]

I was a B Team crew from TYO-LAX a couple of years ago when the Captain of the flight accepted a flight plan to fly parallel to the jet stream over the North Pacific. Nothing wrong with that except there is a long line of frontal weather also running parallel to the flight path with some CAT reported. I suggested that he takes the route more to the south even though it will incur another 20 minutes to the flight time. He refused.

After 1 hours into the flight we encountered moderate to severe turbulence the kind that made the plane buck wildly and left you hanging unto the control column for almost 3 hours. I think that night it was the worst experience for everybody in their entire flying career. We also could not descent as there were 2 plane sandwiching us below.

This particular Captain is the Taliban type and it is generally known that he was one of the unscrupulous pilots who had obtained his ATPL. So his detailed knowledge on meteorology was nothing much to talk about to have taken this flight path. It was one of the favorite questions in the 70's ATPL exam to avoid flying in the above situation. Well like somebody said ignorance was bliss.

I had to sit on the jumped seat over this period to give moral support and as a result did not have much sleep when I took over. To top it off I had to do an autoland in LAX as he was not qualified.

Well apart from frightening some customers away what can you learn from the above apisode.

[tigerwood]

well old ace. you seems to have unsettled business. I sat for my ATPL in the early 80's, and I don't see I'm less knowledegable that those who sat before 1976. I studied and passed with single sitting, and it was all subjective questions. I was worried whether I could made it thru at that time. The course that I took really help me a lot. I don't see what's the fuzz, old ace? Infact I learned more as I clocked more hours, this is something where ATPL doesnt teach me. So, are you one them who sat for the "real" UK ATPL? Good for you, sallute to Old Ace, the ace or shall it be "a-s" pilot.

Yes, the present rule of Malaysian ATPL does not required the candidate to pass at least 5 papers (in one sitting), and no time limit. Futhermore, most papers are objective. It's very different compared to those day. But, I'm sure the candidates have to study too. and hopefully, the knowledge do help them in flying. So, what's the problem old ace? still, not happy? go bang your head on the wall. perhaps, you will find your satisfaction.

[OldAce999]

Pilost says: “To claim that more than half of the pilot community here are having a 'kopi O lesen' is very serious indeed. If he was right then MAS will have an accident every other day for having pilots of this caliber”


What kind of logic is that. We are talking about pilots copying in their exams and having lack of integrity. We have pilots who never even got through the SPM (GCE O Level) in MAS even though the minimum required is a good grade after 11 years of schooling. So if we take in pilots with 6 years of academic time and there is no accident does that mean everything is OK. Even monkeys can be taught how to fly. So would you like to fly as a passenger with that monkey in front.

In MAS there are a lot of immature monkey like characters who makes a fool of themselves as commander especially to the cabin crew. These are not young monkeys but in the age range of 35-45. All it seemed they are interested in during the flight and after flight in what is underneath the sarong of the stewardesses rather than really managing the flights and carrying themselves well. Sometimes it can be a real embarrassment to be associated with them.

We had heard of pilot saying I don’t want my family to fly if that character is flying the plane. Well we know who they are, but the problem is do these characters really realized what they are doing to the pilot fraternity. No wonder we are no longer being respected as before by the other departments especially the Cabin Crew and being treated as just another ‘taxi-driver’.

[Slasher]

Hey OldAce999 Im a commander, Im 35-45 and Im interested in whats under the sarong of your stewardesses too, and I dont even work for your outfit! Just because some guys chase your fluff doesnt mean there any worse as pilots. I think your maybe not gettin any and jealous of those who are! :p

PS then again Im not that luckey with our Nam lot neither! :(

[Usman]

Slasher what OldAce is trying to say is how you go about doing it. Not in a gross juvenile way by grabbing the buttock of a stew in front of all the crew.

As for me I study the situation, invite her for dinner in my room and then try to feel what's inside the sarong.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Dinner..in your room...what style you have. Must be the rendang you brought from home and heat up nearly flaming the hotels carpet. :eek:

[Slasher]

FL600 at some nightstops (like TPE) we even organise to be down-stairs in the lobby if theres an MAS cabin crew known to be checking out. Dont know how many times I wanted to grab the butts of some of your girls myself! ;)

[MR. Login]

I've tried a few...they were yummmm! Man, Old ace, what happened to you mate? No 6ex lest we die doing???
Pity you mate.

[smiths]

I concur!! :D :D :D

[OldAce999]

Emm....let me check my gun butt for the x crosses............148 nothing less in 28 years. And some were even virgin.

Maybe some of you maniac can beat the score. But the trick is to do it discreetly. These Taliban got no class...with only rendang. I got champagne complete with ice.

[MR. Login]

Yeah right!!!! Anyone can say that. However, are the "scores" UK or Malaysian standard?? It would not count if some were locals, alright. :cool:

[Sick Squid]

Well, well, well, we've had the "Errol Flynn of Singapore Airlines," now we've got the "Phantom Shagger of Old KL...." :)

Braggin' about shaggin' = Jet Blast. This forum is for putting the boot in and salaciously destroyi...er, sorry, cutting and incisive comment and critique relevant to the aviation World today. I think....

Keep this one on topic. After you've locked up your daughters, of course....

£6 (in "Bandwidth-Hound" mode)

[Marcellus Wallace]

Well as you can see...us Malaysians are vey competitive. ATPL vs. Women. It's called the K.... syndrome, but we sometimes don't wanna admit how close we are to our neighbours down south. :D

[OldAce999]

Well some of you were questioning my credibility, now you got it. Maybe the biggest shagger East of Suez. Hahahahahaaa.
Wait Tom Yam (Tom Cruise after he became a Buddhist in Patpong) might had beaten me to it.

Its good for your ego and libido I tell ya.
Also fine tuned your senses and system for flying. Don't do it too often though.

[OldAce999]

MR Login: Some were from Japan, Korea, Mexican, South Africa and England the good old Virgin Atlantic. The non-Malaysian were easier to handle no messing leftovers.

You think the UK CAA will recognise this?

[Slasher]

Phantom Shagger of old KL? I must know him since Im the phantom shagger of old Ha Noi!
Regards to the overnighting MAS tech crew (phantom shaggers) who shared a beer and 20 with me about 2 months ago in TPE and taut me a few more "nice" Malaysian words. :D

[Sick Squid]

Actually Slasher, I was thinking of something along the lines of "Paddling the one-oared canoe up the Mekong Delta" for you, but ran out of inspiration...! Also, could be open to mis-interpretation, and we couldn't have that now, could we?

One day I will practice what I preach.... till then, Taliban, ATPL's-R-Us, etc. wasn't it?
Oh, never mind......!

£6

[OldAce999]

Anyone here need some tips and tricks on how to pick up the stew for bodyheat or splendour in the bedsheet during nightstops. I still got some up my sleeve that works most of the time.

[MR. Login]

Ye Olde Ace, ( Even if you say so, yerself)

I was just thinking, what sort of a sick f.a.r.t. would enjoy being in the forum, like you. You obviously enjoy all the disparaging remarks and comments made against you, by your continous vigilance and promptness in replying all those who offend you. ;)
There are other ways of communicating. Picking up the phone and dialling 56 is one, going to the pub is also another one. Can you think of more???
But it wouldn't do you much good, would it because IMHO you are a w.o.r.t.h.less cowherd, preferring hide like a prvt behind a handle like Old Ace???
Yuck, gimme a break..(sounds wa.ng.ky) ya know

[OldAce999]

MR. Login thanks for your remarks. It just goes to show your true colors.

You sounded familiar just like the replies I used to get from the Talibans in “For Malaysian Airline Pilots ONLY Pt 1”

A typical reply from the Taliban type who can’t make a logical argument but have to resort to names calling.

It seems that the old Taliban pilots (in MAS) supporters like Kurmitola etc are no longer here so calling amateur like yourself to carry on while they had gone to Afghan to support the real Talibans in their ‘jihad’.

I’m sure their bodies are lying in shreds all over the deserts of Afghan by now and I hope their souls are in the 7th Heavens enjoying the fornifications with the 70’s odd virgins as reward for their jihad.

How come you are not with them yet. Go before it is too late. This is your best chance to enter the 7th Heaven.

[MR. Login]

Old man,

Ha!Ha! Got you again. You are on the wrong track and if you care to read the old post(I don't mean you) closer, perhaps with a reading glass you're carrying now, you would figure out things better. Anyway I'm not about to let the cat out yet.

The reason why I keep tuning in is because you amuse me in a strange, sick way. I actually agree with most of your comments that MAS sucks, that the management(what management) has been and will always be under par, running a multi-billion dollar ops with no real qualifications, except for the so called Malaysian ATPLs you're always squealing about and on and on.

The question is: What is your point..further to all this??

You have made it clear time and time again, that your time there has completely messed you up, pretty much like the vets in Nam. Everybody knows that and to be more than fair, 6UK$ has given a lot of lee way for you to vent your frustrations. But what I'm saying really is you gotta take it easy matey. You are past your golden age and the best is to go away gracefully, don't you think? Play more golf or tend to that back yard you've been wanting to fix all these years. Talk to your wife and grand children, for goodness sakes. There are a lot more to life when you really think about it. Da???
I guess I've got to go talk to my own now, eh? Regardless, you beguile us all and keep the cookies hot. Don't go away too soon. :eek: ;)

Perhaps Kurmitola and the rest are exhausted by you. Perhaps they have something better to do.. I know you want them to come back to keep you company but for now you've just got to be contented with what you've got. HA!

P/S: Do you log on only when you're home or in cafes and hotel rooms(when you're not serving the DOM)? Ooops sorry, you no longer do that, right? I shall keep you company for now, but may not be able to keep up with the extra 150mg Viag you're on.

My 10mins is up. Gotta go now, Bye..don't miss me.

old post

[Usman]

IN MALAYSIA

Why did the ayam cross the road?

Mahathir: It is all a ploy by foreigners especially the Jews to
manipulate the situation such that the chickens must cross the road.
Today, we are proud that they are our chickens but tomorrow, they
might belong to foreigners. Before long, we will all be chickens
laying hens for foreigners.

Sami Vellu: In view of the number of chickens crossing the road, we
must build more toll plazas and introduce chicken crossings. Anyway,
chicken crossings are more relevant since we don't have zebras in
Malaysia.

Anwar: The issue is not why the chickens cross the road but more
importantly who these chickens are. It is a reflection of the success
of the New Economic policy. 3 out of 10 chickens are bumiputera. Out
of these 3, there are 2 middle class cocks leading the hen. The
remaining 7 are not all non-bumiputera. The gov't and UMNO are
represented by the Renong, HICOM and Perwaja cocks. As long as more
than 30% of the chickens are ours and continue laying eggs for us,
they can cross the road all they want.

Ghafar Baba: We always keep our chicken properly in our kampung. So,
who let the chickens out?

Ling Liong Sik: What chickens are we talking about, "Si mii Kai"?

Rafidah Aziz: How many were hens and how many were cocks? That has a
great bearing on the advancement of women's welfare. Were the hens
driving or the cocks leading? Were they going or coming? We need to
address at the UMNO general assembly before all this talking -cock
gets out of hand.

Muhammad Taib: They are not my chickens. I was merely letting them
cross the road for my brother-in-law. (ex-Selangor MB)

Lim Kit Siang: We need a national inquiry into this matter. How can
chickens cross the road for no reason. There must be some hanky-panky
by UMNO. I have proof that a certain UMNO political figure is
illegally involved in this. I smell corruption, nepotism and cronyism.
Two of the chickens belong to Mahathir's son.

Nik Aziz: Chickens crossing the road is un-Islamic. In Kelantan, we
have clear Syariah laws preventing chickens from crossing the road so
this issue would never arise. It is corruption and indulgence in non-
Islamic ways that UMNO has created a dangerous situation of chickens
crossing the road. Any chicken that crosses the road is not halal
anymore.

Tengku Razaleigh : Chickens do not cross the road for no reason. It is
another case of supporters switching parties.

Daim Zainuddn: Don't count your chickens before they hatch!



And the AMERICAN perspective ...

Bill Clinton: I've met so many chicks. I can't remember.

[Slasher]

IN SINGAPORE

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Lee KY: To my mind chickens serve no purpose in crossing a road. This could lead to a lowering of egg productivity to the economic detriment of all Singaporeans.

Goh CT: Any Singaporean chicken who crosses a road does it for all Singaporeans.

[MR. Login]

IN AUZ:

Johnny the Wizard of: We will decide which chix crosses the road in this country and how it crosses!!!!

Pauline Hand Some: Can u xplain??

Saddam: It will be the Motherrrrr of all chicken.

Old Piddly doo: This is so boring, let's talk about MAS. After all, it was me who started the post..

[Usman]

[Two voices - male and female - on a plane.]

"I think everyone's asleep, lets go"

[Sound of steps.]

"This one's empty ... no-ones looking... you go in first"

"It a bit cramped - let me sit down"

"Have you got the condom? Quick - put it on"

Sniff sniff

"Ah perfume - you think of everything"

"This is great....Ahhh" (long sigh)

Static on the loud speaker then a new voice.

"This is the captain speaking, to those two people in the rear toilet. We know what you're doing and it is expressly forbidden
by airline regulations...

Now put those cigarettes out and take the condom off the smoke detector!"

[rr892igw]

1) GO IN,COME OUT,GO IN COME,HERE COMES THE WATER.Guess what's that?

Ans:Extracting sugercane juice.

2) GO UP,COME DOWN,GO UP,COME DOWN,HERE COMES THE WATER.Guess what's that?

Ans:737 crew changing aircraft at noon. :D

[tigerwood]

SELAMAT HARI RAYA (eid mubarak)

[fisherman]

According to gossip;

The supreme executive chairman has rejected the MD’s proposal on VSS (redundancy plan) and further instructed to reinstate some of those offline stations e.g. Cairo, Zurich, etc.

Without major re-organization, it is doubt Mas will ever break-even. Ofcourse, the Government can always ‘capitalised’ the bank loans, get Petronas to lease aircrafts at a nomination sum and supplying fuel at ‘cost’ with extended credit term.

The question is, how long can we last in this state of denial?

[zxamx]

Dear Fisherman,

I agreed with your statement. However, one should realise by now that nothing is "IMPOSSIBLE' in BOLEHLAND. MAS now is a government body anyway and the Govt of BOLEHLAND has the absolute power to amend, re-org, cut, re-instate etc through her subordinates incharged in the MH's organisation. So why worry ??? Since when the tax payers money have not been wasted to bail out mega companies in BOLEHLAND? This is just another event. The most important, we still get paid at the end of the month to feed our families.

If we are still unhappy with what is going on, by all means, excercise our rights once every five years in the ballot box.

"HAPPY IDUL FITR TO ALL MUSLIM MEMBERS"

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Usman]

So when are they going to kick out the Taliban muallah pilots from MAS.

After Hari Raya or New Year.

Especially their leaders Camel and Pygmy. Don't forget also the Rose from training dapartment.

[Usman]

Come Ist Jan MAS is retrenching about 3000 staff including flight crew.

Well we can guess who will go, those who are against the wrong policy of managements in the past and the members of union who are a treat. It's not going to be Last in First out policy I assure you.

All the cronies are going to keep their gangs to give them support in the future.

And the same old problems remains unsolved and the airline continues with loses inspite of kicking 3000 people out. When will they ever learn.

[Usman]

In Malaysia you can get an ATPL for free without even sitting for the papers. Anyone here had heard of it?

Happy New Year....everyone

[SuperRanger]

???

[Usman]

Well these people with the free ATPL are even flying in the national carrier MAS.

[OldAce999]

Yea I know just join Department of Civil Aviation for 5 years do some flight observations in the airline and you are entitle to a free ATPL. Then after that quietly sneak into the airline.

Well like this I'm joining the Education Ministry and in 5 years I get a free Degree.

It only happen in Boleh-Land.

[QNH1013]

I don't think the government will allow those numbers of retrenchments. Perhaps the Expats will be going soon, but I really don't know what on earth will happen or when the "announcement" of their brilliant plan to shape up the company will be. Government bailout (yet again) comes to my mind though.

[Hermie]

Hey,

Veering off from the topic ....

Just wondering, I have this friend whose uncle got into Malaysia Airlines as a pilot. His a Singaporean who resides in KL.

How is that possible, the pilot part ?

THANKS, just wondering !

Best Regards,
Herman <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[fisherman]

As most if not all the restructuting is either been reversed or not approved, any professional with pride in his work will quit. So unless those expats can't find job elsewhere, expect them to leave soon.

Understand LSG is negotiating to buy over Mas Catering, would be interesting to find out how much worms they uncover by the due deligence process. Wonder, who would be having the management control and would LSG agreed not to trim the excessive staffs? or LSG things is another ploy to beat up the ailing share price?

[Iso]

What price is an egg?

[zxamx]

What's new ??? Somebody is gonna make money again......... Taxpayers never learn !!!!

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[OldAce999]

For the record here I would like to state that MAS allows double standard in their Airline.

They recognise Australian ATPL for expats and those cadet they sent to Australia for basic training but would not give recognition to other Malaysian who want to sit for the Aussie ATPL.

Its the same for Indonesian and Phillipines ATPL which follows the FAA system.

[MR. Login]

MAS has multiple standards, everybody knows that. But MAS does allow and accept Malaysians to sit for Aussie ATPLs provided that they are eligible to do so in the first place.

[Usman]

Yes MAS might allow lately, but will JPA convert the Aust ATPL to a Malaysian ATPL?

[Usman]

The train service from KL-Sepang is really being miscalculated as far as fare goes.

At RM35 I better get a taxi to Sepang straight from home at RM40 minus the hassle.

The hassle of loading bags twice and especially carrying it up the steep steps at Brickfield.

It cost me RM12 to get to the train station.

When the LRT started at RM3.50 to KL...there were few pax. Now at RM1.50 we have a good crowd.

So fare should be at RM15 for it to be viable.

If you don't believe me just wait and see.

[kurmitola]

You're more than right FL, if one arrived in KLIA, with his wife/children, might as well take the Airport Limo straight from the arrival level to the hotel at a cheaper fare. Saves them from carrying the bags downstairs to the ERL Station then loading them in another cab to the hotel. Less time, less money spent less hassle. . . But like before, the government will wait for the travelling public to complain, reduced the fare, and compensate YTL ( in the form of another takeover ...spelt Bailout ). Seen that one before ?

[MR. Login]

FL,. .The question of whether or not MAS will approve Aust ATPL does not arise at all at this level.

The big question is how to gain the Aust ATPL in the first place. MAS has always had locals with Aust ATPLs and the conversion is done by sitting for a couple of papers at home. Therefore, MAS will then accept the "Malaysian ATPL".

Give DCA a call and pay homage to their officers, seek and you shall find.

Also I'm sure the CAA (Aust) has a website as to their requirements for the issuance of licenses. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[OldAce999]

Login...DCA does not recognise Malaysian sitting for their own Australian ATPL, unless you are send by MAS for cadet training in Aussie land.. .This was effective for those sent by MAS in 1971.

Hence this double standard.

[MR. Login]

Negative sir, your rumour is out of date by 30+ years.

Has anyone you know including yourself tried to obtain the ATPL (Aust) through the proper channels?

I do.

[Usman]

I support OLDACE99.

From 1971 to 1990 as far as I know Department of Civil Aviation ONLY recognised British ATPL for Malaysian (with the exception of MAS cadets trained in Australia).

Due to the heavy commitment of the CAA ATPL exams some local pilots enquired about the Aust ATPL and were told negative.

When did you enquired about yours.....after 1990 when even the local ATPL is as easy as the Aust ATPL.

[Usman]

From The Business Times, Singapore. .30 January 2002

KL keen to have foreign partner in new MAS: Dr M . .It will be a company that operates an airline and doesn't own any. .assets . .By Eddie Toh

THE Malaysian government is keen to take in a foreign strategic. .partner for the new company (Newco) that will assume the profitable. .international operations and listing status of Malaysian Airline. .System (MAS), according to Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad. 'Yes, for. .the operation of MAS, we are still interested (in foreign partners),'. .he told reporters yesterday.

The premier, who is also the finance minister, added: 'But we will. .have to know what their intention is, because it will be a company. .that operates an airline and doesn't own any assets.'

Dr Mahathir also indicated that there was no need for the government. .to hold a golden share in Newco, which will be majority controlled by. .the government through MAS.

. . . .'The government has enough say. There is no need for the golden. .share,' he said. The government, which renationalised MAS last year,. .owns a golden share that carries wide-ranging veto power.

On Monday, MAS announced that it would transfer its international. .passenger and cargo operations to Newco, which will also assume the. .listing status of MAS.

MAS, which will be delisted and become a wholly owned subsidiary of. .the government, will then control the money-losing domestic. .operations. The old MAS will also house the group's assets and. .liabilities.

Dr Mahathir yesterday said the delisting of MAS will not involve. .government funds. This means that the government has ruled out a. .general offer for the remaining 17 per cent that it does not own in. .MAS.

Analysts said the latest revamp is positive for MAS shareholders, who. .are likely to be asked to swap their shares for shares in Newco. 'The. .corporate exercise should be positive for shareholders as MAS will be. .free from the burden of its loss-making domestic passenger services,'. .said Kim Eng Securities in a research note.

The counter has risen 17 per cent in the past two days, closing at. .RM3.52 yesterday.

Analysts said the absence of a golden share in Newco would help. .facilitate the entry of a foreign partner. However, they added that. .there are now fewer foreign suitors for the new MAS following the Sept. .11 terrorist incidents.

SwissAir, for instance, which held preliminary discussions with the. .government last year, has since filed for bankruptcy.

Even Singapore Airlines, which was the most profitable airline in the. .world, may register its maiden loss this year.

Despite government assistance, the Malaysian carrier is not out of the. .woods yet. MAS is expected to register its fifth year of loss for the. .year ending March 2002. It has lost a total of RM2.5 billion (S$1.2. .billion) in the past four years.

But the management of MAS said Newco would be profitable from Day One. .as it would not have to shoulder the group's huge debts of nearly RM10. .billion.

<a href="http://business-times.asia1.com.sg" target="_blank">http://business-times.asia1.com.sg</a>

. .My view: This setup post more questions than answers. It looks like a whole lot of confusion.. .What asset, what, what.

[MR. Login]

even the local ATPL is as easy as the Aust ATPL.

Whoaaa, wait a minute here. Would anyone from godzone would like to comment on this? I have never seen the exam but I know friends whom have sat and passed, only after a few attempts.

Also FL, you can support anyone you like, because from where I stand, it's a free country. What I stated were facts and you may choose to verify it by doing the work yourself or to completely disregard them. After all, this is PPRuNe!!

I did mine in 85' thank you very much, when it was still "difficult"...and WOW!Big picture &gt; What's the big deal anyway?

What you know isn't complete and I really do not give a rat's a$$ to what you think you know.

[Slasher]

Youd would have to specify what the Malaysian ATP sylabus is modeled after. USA? UK? Or is it a home-grown one?

[PILOST]

As in most ex colonial countries, in Malaysia,the syllabus is modelled after the UK requirements.Thus,pilots here are required to sit for the CAA 6 (ATPL) & recently HPL.All are UK CAA International exam papers & are marked in UK.

Malaysian DCA will recognize ICAO ATPL licenses for conversion to a Malaysian license subject to their terms & conditions.Thus,the general requirement to sit for Air Law only for the expats who come to work here.For the locals however DCA are a bit sticky & will review their license application on a case by case basis.Have heard of some guys who tried the Oz or FAA ATPL & were told to do some (not all 6) of the CAA papers & HPL to convert their license.

To say that the Oz ATPL is easy as the Malaysian ATPL (although the papers are CAA Int'l UK) is like comparing apples & oranges.The Oz ATPL is geared towards their enviroment & peculiarities with emphasis on practicality (I have to say that this is my personal opinion).As for the Malaysian ATPL.......... it's a paper set by the poms.......need I say more?

At the end of the day,the licensing authority are the respectives DCA's,so if there is double standards....... blame them on the authorities...... have to agree though that the expats here get it easy compared to some other authorities.....

. .Safe Flying All.

<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> . . . .PILOST

[ 30 January 2002: Message edited by: PILOST ]</p>

[Bob Hawke]

C. R. A. P. !

[MR. Login]

You said it all, bobby..

[Usman]

The Malaysian ATPL before 1990 is a tough paper where only 25% of the local passed the exams. The remaining 50% paid bribery to get it and the balance of 25% sat for the easier Aussie model exam after 1990. All Malaysian who sat for the 'easier' exam like the Aussie ATPL passed the papaers.

By 'easier' I mean you only have to just select A,B,C,D for answers. and you can schedule to pass all the papers in one year a subject at a time.

As for the British ATPL required by Malaysian before 1990...you have to sit 8 papers in 3 strait days. Each paper taking 3 hours to complete. It's a tough gruelling exam where speed and accuracy is the essence where the candidate had to produce in written form. They'll give you a map as big as a 8'x 6' to plot your navigation and the same size map for forecasting weather in Europe. These papers are the same for the Navigators and Metereologist exam.

You get a partial if you pass 5 of the subjects and be entitle to sit for ONE more attempt for the remaining papers. Failing which you have to sit for ALL the papers all over again.

After 3 full attempts you'll be ban from sitting for the exam for the next 2 years.

Who want this requirement, but the pom. It make the Aussie exam where you can sit one subject at a time in one year as what they say 'a piece of cake mate'.

Especially for working pilot who works sometimes 7 days a week it is more difficult to attempt the old CAA ATPL.

But nowadays everything is made easy meat.

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: FL600 ]</p>

[MR. Login]

So I take it that you and ol'droopy have it framed up on the wall in the living room then.?

I'm sure its a great talking point...recounting the good ol' days, blah blah blah...and how these days, the young chikus aren't worth a cent?

Well, these young chikus are now here on the 400 to further shove it up to you :) :) :)

[PILOST]

We are already in the 21st Century. :) . .The old ways of navigating by stars, LORAN,DECCA & Omega to name a few have gone the way of the Dodo.Weather & Flight planning have been replaced by satellite pictures & computers.Time & technology has changed the face of aviation & the requirements that go with the industry.What the old & new generation of flyers don't understand is that they need to interact to achieve the objective which is "to fly from A to B in the most safe & efficient way".

They are certain arguments by the 2 schools (old & new) of which exams are the hardest.My simple answer would be that both have their advantages & drawbacks.One of the biggest drawbacks on the new exams format are the mutiple answers which are very close to each other.This format will teach the candidates to be very careful with their calculations, plotting & answers.

We can argue till the cows come home but the fact remains that the new exams format remains until some other format replaces it.We must remember that the first flyers (the Wright brothers) didn't have a license, sat for an exam or even did a medical!Havent we come a long way from that first fateful day.......So all this talk about who is the better flyer are just going on an "ego trip".

You can have a license from Mars for all I care.......but if your definition of CRM is C.R.A.P Resource Management & your attitude is "the world owes me a living" then I wouldn't want to be in the same airspace as you......even with TCAS,FMS,FANS,EGPWS,SATCOM etc etc.....

:)

Safe Flying all,

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

PILOST.

[Usman]

Yea yea young chickos who spot turn on their main wheels.

The main grouses of the older generation is the ungrateful atitude of some of these young punks.

On the 400 already eh...let see how long you last before your next major foul-up.

[Bob Hawke]

Clearly Retarded And Pointless, is more appropiate! CRM? You gotta be joking man. Look at what goes on some of these cockpits, and some of the trainers, who lead by example. This has been discussed ad nasium before, so I wont elaborate any further, as you well know!

Top it off with some allegedly dodgey licenses practises, where, in any other country you would go to gaol for exam fraud.

Now who owes them/me a living? Those that fraudulently obtained their's, others by conceptional accident perhaps and finally the CRM gurus, who blast, intimidate and shout their way through training sessions, or even regulah flightslah. Just to mention a few. Credit awarded, where credit is due. So please stand up, if you need an award!

[MR. Login]

All the major Fcuk ups were done by you oldies anyway. LHR, MEL, HKG, SZB to name a few. So what are you on about?

F.inally L.eaving at 60.0's and Droopy's main grouses originate from the withdrawal symptoms of not getting enough, when even the IFSs and CSs aren't paying attention to them folks anymore and soon to be chucked out of the seat, therefore no longer able to scream, shout and intimidate the more virile, viagraless replacements. Now they can practice all those at home and have everyone there grateful to them. Can you imagine? Boy, I'd hate to be in their household.

None of you put rice in my bowl, so why should I lick your a$$? I am however very grateful to MAS for the chance I was given to fly some really heavy stuff with all the mods and cons, the works. It's a dream come true for me, but that's beside the point. Yous two aren't interested in flying but yous should really go and join DAP or some political party with a big stick up the back alley.

How about other airlines? Do yous have problems with old and cranky bus thirds like in MAS? Well, to be fair, there are only a few as these couple have demonstrated. All they bloody do in the seat is read newspapers and grumble about the airline and the girls they had, some 20 odd years ago. Jeez, get a life..

[Sick Squid]

Alright, alright! Necks, wind them in, all of you.

Arguing around who's licence is better, who's exams are harder and now much better my generation than yours is is is entirely pointless, and we've heard it all before.

The best part is, everyone is wrong, and everyone is right. Now get on with it.

[OldAce999]

Thanks for testing the water....FL600.

Now we know who these two urns are, none other than the young Talibans in MAS.

After engineering half of the old pilot out of their job in MAS now want to talk big already eh.. .Your time will come too....soon when MAS goes completely bankcrupt.

Kurang ajar punya biawak.

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: OldAce999 ]</p>

[MR. Login]

Allllright, you're right squid. But I wanna know, what did the goanna do?

I'd like to stop from this stupid and pointless discussion of who's license is better, who's char koay is bigger and longer and all this crap being brought up again and again by these dilapidating pests.Before that, let me explain something.

Oldspice is typical of people with scarcity mentality whom have a very difficult time sharing recognition and credit, power or profit-even with those whom have helped. They also have a very hard time time being genuinely happy for the success of other people, often harbouring hopes that others might suffer misfortune as well said by FL.

My original point to all this is: There are some cases whereby local pilots with the proper qualifications are able to obtain Aust ATPL, convert it and accepted by MAS. So, if other pilot out there are genuinely interested to know how, they can. But to simply shoot this knowledge down as if these twerps know it all is rather foolish, arrogant, very high-handed and conceited.

I digress.

"Assume Nothing, Challenge Everything and Defend Facts"

[Usman]

It just boils down to DISCRIMINATION. Why some pilot can convert Aussie ATPL to Malaysian ATPL and some cannot. Period.

[Bob Hawke]

The answer is obvious, it's not what you know, but who you know. Everything works that way.

[Usman]

Time to be positive as Squid said.

If a 6 year old girl can fly plane what can't Malaysian do.

How about reducing the time for ex-cadet to be B747-400 commanders from 8 years to 6 years. Especially in these times of cutting corners for more profit margin.

So 1st year as co-pilot on B737 to get 500 hours.

Then spend 2 years on B747-400; 1 year as cruise copilot and the next as fully operational copilot.

Then 3 years as Capt on B737

Next stop Captain on B747-400.

Then Malaysia can declare we got the youngest B747 Captain in the world at the age of 25.. .It might even get to the Guiness Book of Records.

Civil Aviation of Malaysia can change the requirements like they do always to fix the criteria requirements.

This is BolehLand semua boleh.

As for safety....who cares it was never on the airline vocablary anyway.

[Usman]

Bob Hawke:

It is also obvious how MAS can chalk up a loss of RM20 billion total and RM1.3 billion last year alone.

[OldAce999]

Hei chelaka lu FL600…mau lawan Taukeh kah. I'm the TopGun around here, what are you trying to do.

Remember what I told you about playing golf with your Boss. Always make it look you lost after a difficult try. This had always been the Malaysian feudalistic culture.

I learn that the hard way in the Air force when I outshoot my Wing Commander by 50% firing 4x30mm cannon in a live air to air banner shooting. That's why I never be a General if I had stayed on in the AF.

Anyway what I'm going to propose here to save MAS about RM50 million per annum will offset everything positive you had made.

Camel the Taliban proposed to save the airline RM25 million in 1993 and he was made the Director of Flight Operation or VP or VIP or whatsoever. That proposal ended up as the low fuel fiasco over London when they miscalculated the minimum fuel required. He was kick out towards the end of 1996.

If I make this proposal now in MAS I'll be guaranteed a GM job at least. Unfortunately I'm not in MAS but with a foreign carrier up north.

Gotta go for my golf now.....

-(to be continued)

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Guys !! just take a look at what you have written and you will get some idea of why MAS is in deep S**T.

1) Bury the hatchet and work together.. .2) Think about your jobs, (NEWCO / MAS). .3) Think about saving your bankrupt airline.. .4) The reduced level of service.. .5) The regional & International competition.. .6) The crappy association M*PA and the damage they are doing. .7) The poor flying standards.. .8) The poorer management.

These are just a few points that are detrimental to your future survival in the industry.

The aviation industry as a whole has never ever ever made money. Just add up the the profits and subtract it from the losses and you will see that the industry as a whole is deeply in the red.

This should give you an Idea as to how competitive the aviation industry is.

Thus to be successful the company as a whole has to work together as a team with one goal in mind. Hence one team one mission.

You guys display all the negative attributes here. Thus it is inevitable that your airline will go bankrupt and you can all argue together about whose fault it was in the unemployment lines.

Ultimatly, it will be YOUR FAULT.

Think about it,

Captain Wooblah.

[Slasher]

Theres unemployment lines in Malaysia? I thought it was like every other SEA country where the government couldnt care a cr@p about its citizens: you starve!

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: Slasher ]</p>

[Slasher]

Wooblah, havin talked to MAS blokes in the past, theyve had all this "rah-rah!" rallying cr@p before, only to find things turn to sh!t in the end every time. So its no wonder it starts to wear thin on them. Even I would be negative and pessemistic after being screwed up the @rse so many times!

And exactley like here in communist Nam, Im told everything done to MAS is purely political and never anything practical. So how can it be THEIR fault when they have absolutley no democratic process to correct the excesses of a corrupt government that only survives by hiding behind a draconian Internal Security Act to ruthlessley suppress all forms of criticism and dissent?

[ 10 February 2002: Message edited by: Slasher ]</p>

[Bob Hawke]

Wooblah, r u coming back for a management position? Just curious.

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

No Bob,

I left MAS some time ago, I am not MAS material, I believe in getting the job done! no tricks no politics. Just attack the market from a technical and financial point.

You need teamwork, and employees must know that they are valued regardless of race or creed or past accomplishments. The situation is constantly evolving thus the management needs to be dynamic and fluid.

I personally have no hard feelings toward MAS, hey it's a great company and she should be the pride of the nation.

It's the people that have messed it up. I guess we are all amazed as to how such choices are made and how such incompetence gains the helm time and time again.

I still stick to my guns and reiterate that much is in the hands of the employees. If management continues its present track the employees should take a firm stand.

Hey its hard nobody said that instigating change is ever easy, much sacrfice will be required, egos will have to be kept in check ect. But, alas it is a rightious path and possible.

Hey, you guys decide??

Wooblah..........

[MR. Login]

Woobie,

You ran away, but. How can unenlightened others, unlike you now be firm and stand up to big brother?

I'm with slasher this time, because he definiteLEY has a point.

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Dear Login,

It's not about me running away or being enlightened. It's just about commen sense. MAS needs leadership and what I meant is that leadership should come from within. If the choosen leaders are useless then the employees should band together via established asociations and unions. Call for meetings with the establishment and voice out their concerns and the path that needs to be taken.

For example if a particular route is useless ie a 747 with 10 Pax then many people from customer services to pilots know about this. Thus it should be questioned why this service continues.. .If the answere is political reasons they should push further to their MP's and so on.

Employees sould be concerned as it is their jobs that ultimatly will be on the line, hence the time has come to be pro active. No point sitting on ones laurels and being helpless. Take a stand collectivly, be organised, have a plan, give suggestions and alternatives, write in to the bosses. petition senior management and the government. Give it a go before you just give up and blame those around you or percieve you are a victim of circumstance.

The fishermen petitioned the government on the rise of diesel prices after the PM said publicly no way. AND THEY WON.

Are you guys lesser than the fisherman.

It's in your hands boys or are you girls.

Wooblah.......

[Usman]

Well done Capt Wooblah. But these pilots in MAS are no warrior after 3 decades of being 'yesman'. .It had adopted the culture of the 3 monkeys; I see nothing, I hear nothing and I say nothing. It will be hell to those who do otherwise. And they are a complacent lot, only too happy just to receive their end of month salary. Let's see how long this payout will last.

Who is going to 'bell' the cats.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: FL600 ]</p>

[MR. Login]

Wobbly,

Your RAH! RAH! is really good and all and easy, especially when you're on the outside looking in. Don't you forget how the situation was when you were still around. All this talk, I feel, should have been addressed back then when we can still look up to you and help guide us as a leader. It can only survive in an organisation when the system supports it and people sincere to achieve it. As you know, the culture is to take care of one's self, hence we have "good" people leaving for better money (not necessarily conditions) to the few up north and the one down south. So, if your talk is yay but the reward is nay, then essentially you have a losing programme in your hands.

If you want to achieve the goals and reflect the values in your statement, the reward system has to be aligned with the goals and values. If it isn't aligned SYSTEMatically, then you won't be walking your talk. Hence Mana Ada System will continue to rot, and to be proactive is to leave and make a better life for oneself if the conditions here aren't acceptable. Otherwise, life goes on and we'll continue to whinge here on the forum...

Some fishermen do make a decent living and I'm not sure if we are LESSER or more than them. I would not be the one to judge and wouldn't like to. I'll leave that to you. Are you higher than fishermen and if so, why? One things is for sure, there are only +-2000 of us versus 200,000+ of them. From the numbers alone, it's not hard to see who has more weight and say when it comes to elections.

To be proactive is great but the pieces must fit. I think I'm definitely a "girl" and will run away, just like you when my number is called upon. I hope to retire happy and not be bitter like you know who.. In summary, what you're saying is GOOD but it won't work. No matter how good the captain of the ship is, if the boat is crummy and slow, it will not win the race. Moreover, if the boat is sinking, then you have got to evac, don't you?

The swiss gov's bailout of collapsed Swissair is a similar example of national prestige taking precedence over financial sense. It is also a pointer to the difficulty in making CHANGE:&gt;

Read Slasher's postings on this. In the end &gt; all will turn to sh!t and we'll have the same story and bicker about the same things all over again.

[PILOST]

MAS has & always will be a political animal.When MAS was formed when they split from MSA (Malaysia Singapore Airlines), SQ got the cherry to built their international routes & MH had to pick up the pieces to take part in building the nation.

From day one MH was shackled by it's charter to provide a minimal cost mode of transportation to integrate the nation (east & west Malaysia which was separated by the South China Sea), hence the inability to make tonnes of profit like SQ.On top of it all, it provides rural air services at below cost to the interior natives.When the gov't embraced the South South cooperation seriously, MH had to mount loss making routes to maintain business & political ties with those nations.However all this loss would translate to a plus for the gov't in the macro perspective as business & tourist money will flow in.

Gov't bailouts of cooperation happens elsewhere whether in a third world or "First World Democratically elected Nations" just look at LCTM & recently where the NZ Gov't rescued ANZ & shafted AN :) .At the end of the day values are changed to suit the situation at hand.

Slash, I totally agree with you.Us third worlders should emulate the first world values......... .Ok let me start with recent events ........

Hmmmm......

i) Oz PM lying to win election. .ii) Oz Gov't agency spying on their citizens. .iii) Enron on corporate transparency. .iv) Bailouts & handouts to ANZ,airlines in America,LCTM etc..... .v)America adopting detention without trial laws...

Phew!And the list goes on!Hey!I guess we are not far off from the mark then eh mate? . . :)

As for the fisherman in Malaysia.....I personally know that a few of them have bungalows & a few ships.Guess they have more political & purchasing power than the pilots! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Safe flying all!

<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> . .PILOST

[Bob Hawke]

Pilost, that is not why MAS is losing money hand over fist, so called obligations to connect the east and west, and RAS. Bolderdash!

Its the corrupt awarding of contracts, rediculious prices paid for supplementary services, vanishing assets, lack of transparent accountability and the list goes on.

The problems are far more ingrained, and multi-faceted and culturally accepted than in other countries. More the pity! It is noble of the Government to rescue MAS, and so it should, it is an incredible foreign currency earner, as well as being the flag carrier. It stands to reason to keep it going.

To make a point, it seems the so called new budget airline can still fly under the fixed prices of the Government for MAS, to and from east & west, and make money, so your arguement fails you there. It's about efficiency, and accountability. Very simple.

[OldAce999]

In one move the Malaysian government by forming the ‘new’ MAS had swept all the debts and losses under the carpet. What you think that the creditors will go home empty handed. The new paymaster for all the losses will be borne from the taxpayer’s funds.

All the old crooks had gone home or migrated rich and retired happy at the expense of future taxpayers.

As for the fishermen they have their trade unions vs MAPA, ta’ada apa. Depending on some young urn to be president with no clouts and experience. MAPA setup is wrong, should have a supreme council to elect senior office bearers otherwise if you can influence the pilots on B737 you can be President at age 25 or younger.

As for my pea-brained idea of saving MAS some money I had recalculated it can cut down cost RM100 million per annum, not that it can make a big dent on MAS losses. Will come up with it when the time is ripe. Anyone got better cost saving ideas or are you not willing to share (another typical MAS culture).

[Sick Squid]

MAS always seems to generate a lot of good, interesting debate... this is the second thread to reach the magic 100-posts closure point.

Feel free to keep the debate going on a new thread. Also, it's been a reasonably clean fight so far, with just a couple of "moments." Lets keep it that way.

£6