Polar/Atlas The Saga Continues

[bpp]

No, I'm not mad or will even think about being mad at the pilot group; except for people who SCAB. They don't deserve anything -- period! And the crap of them wanting to go with the Polar certificate if it was sold. Nope, huh uh. Sorry.
Is this a general statement or are you implying someone scabbed?
bpp

[L-38]

Anyone here re- surfacing or hinting on past "scab" accusations are out of place and of past history. We should now be done with that, as that issue alone promotes unnecessary division and is akin to recklessly throwing a wrench into the machinery of the melding of the pilot groups discussed here.

Of greater importance is whether it is to the benefit of all to be cohesive of bargaining power with management.. . . If not, is it worth it for the Polaroids to continue to solely hang their hat on their perceived DHL goose, and thus continue the attempt to go it alone? To me, that is what is being discussed here.

[L-38]

Per Beaver - will want 18 days with 6 involuntary days available. . . So what do you want? . . .

I believe that any involuntary days are a supreme nuisance to pilots, but sometimes necessary for company opps and therefore unavoidable. If involuntary, then they should be few and well paid for. . . Like layinlow say's - involuntary days are more often than not an excuse for poor scheduling, rather than necessary operational happen stance - i.e. a broken airplane.


Some will see layinlow as not a member of the club anymore, (although technically he still is). He does have value when constructive, however . . . How would FedEx do it?

[Intruder]

I see nothing in writing as of yet about insurance programs,
Nitty has already answered the Loss of License question.

Life insurance can be had for MUCH less and on MUCH better terms than offered by ALPA! If you're interested, PM me and I'll send you the address of an independent agent who specializes in insurance for pilots and got me (and several others I know) some great ploicies at great rates.

[nitty-gritty]

Some will see layinlow as not a member of the club anymore, (although technically he still is). If I remember correctly, he took his money under some early out deal with the company for FE's and ran as mentioned by other Polar members (Heilvair (?) mentioned it a couple of times on past threads and it seemed to mean something in his response). So I'm not certain of his recall rights.

As to involuntary day extensions, the company has used them to enhance scheduling instead of the agreement that they would only be used for broke A/C or WX delays. There are a load of unfinanced by ALPA grievances waiting for arbitration on that alone. A lesson that should be well addressed in the current negotiations.

[joetommy]

I think the excuse of broken airplane or last minute charter accounts for less than 5% of the involuntary extensions. I don't understand why anyone would even say such a thing when the company openly admits that they are 25% under crewed. I.E. the last investor confrence call.

THANKS

[dumbdumb]

bb: There are scabs working for Atlas but as a previous post said, and I agree, I'm not going to open up this can of stinch. It's time to move on. If I see there name on my crew pairing some day I'll have to work with them. Doesn't mean I have to have a beer with them.

To the others: Yes, I did see the insurance information on the web site. But what I don't understand is why Prater is implying stuff. I'm sure it will all be addressed in the next voicemail on the 30th. If not, it darn should be as this has created a little anamosity among the ranks.

[L-38]

I believe you are right Joetommy - therefore an involuntary extension should reflect a price that management must pay - not crewmembers . . . after all - the managers are the ones that manage it!

[joetommy]

Good, we agree.

Today, junior Atlas crewmembers are working at least 21 days a month. I don't know anyone who is happy with the situation. And it seems that the people in the know on this board will not even acknowledge that the situation exists.

THANKS

[TheMessenger]

I think the key words here are, new hires and working.

What other airline is hiring now? An old friend of mine who was raised on a farm used to say, "stop complaining with your mouth full".

[Beaver_Driver]

Cato resigned today.

[nitty-gritty]

I've worked 3 total involuntary days this year but I'm not junior either. Maybe you need to get creative to make a point with them. Don't ask me how to do that ;). Being Junior has little to do with it other than if they need an F/O or Captain. More on how much of a fuss you make when they do it and/or your creative spirit.

Having said that, I think we should be able to get something along the lines of what Polar has in their contract making it extremely expensive for them to extend you. Our current Atlas involuntary extension rates are a little light monetary wise if the extensions are as bad as you say they are.

[WhaleDriver]

Cato resigned today.

Verrrrry interesting? (with a German accent)

[BELOWMINS]

"Cato resigned today."

BY CHOICE OR BY CHANCE ?

[Christian Polyp]

My good friend Jim is no longer with the Company. I appreciate the leadership skills that he taught me and I wish him well in the future.:ugh:

[EJetCA]

I've worked 3 total involuntary days this year but I'm not junior either. Maybe you need to get creative to make a point with them. Don't ask me how to do that http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif. Being Junior has little to do with it other than if they need an F/O or Captain. More on how much of a fuss you make when they do it and/or your creative spirit.

Having said that, I think we should be able to get something along the lines of what Polar has in their contract making it extremely expensive for them to extend you. Our current Atlas involuntary extension rates are a little light monetary wise if the extensions are as bad as you say they are.

You're lucky nitty. I've met several of your guys that are regularly extended. They mostly seem to be Classic pilots, but again, it shouldn't matter what airplane they fly since they're on your seniority list.

One CA said he's had 36 mos straight of 21 days. Another 10 yr guy, 400 FO I think, said he's out 21 all the time.

We all feel bad that you guys have to go through that, ya'll look beat down and abused. Fatigue is a serious issue, and I see fatigue in most of the 5Y pilots I cross.

Any rate, the known devil is gone....Hopefully we trade up, not over or down.....

[PCLoadLetter]

Any rate, the known devil is gone....Hopefully we trade up, not over or down.....

Do we have a source on this, or is this someone's idea of an internet prank? :confused:

[WhaleDriver]

Company email.........

[PCLoadLetter]

Wooooowwwwww

[nitty-gritty]

I bet it was one of those "resign or we will fire you" deals. Usually disclosed by the company to the public as a a quality of life move by the resigner. Hopefully an improvement to ours, but I wouldn't leave your guard down.

[Beaver_Driver]

I think he was asked by upper management to "spend more time with his family." Specifically, I bet that since the Atlas/Polar merger is about done, one way or another, that there was no longer any use for the barracuda.

Ejet and Joe Tommy - The data doesn't bear out what you have been told or what you are saying. Personally - I have been here just over 9 years and can only find about 30 X days that I know the company has taken from me. the 36 months straight of 21 days is pure BS. From some previous work I did, I know the company plans on using about 300-350 X days a month. If every crewmember were working 21 days a month, that would equal 2600X days a month. There have been one or two times in the last decade that Xday usage has been over 1200 days a month - which would be just under two days per crewmember. So you can see why I say that the data doesn't bear our what either one of you are saying.

[anothercargopilot]

Joe_tommy, you said: " Today, junior Atlas crewmembers are working at least 21 days a month."

You are incorrect. I am a "junior Atlas pilot". I have only been extended one day in two separate months this year. It is impossible for the company to schedule you against your will greater than 21 days. 17 + 4 involuntary extensions is the MAXIMUM. But you will say what about travel to and from work? Well, that works both ways too. I have been home well before I was scheduled to be home "on paper" and sometimes it has taken longer.

Many months this year I have had standby days where I could have been forced to sit in base but the company skeds has let me have residence standby. Sometimes I need to go to base.

The company has to pay a decent premium to extend you beyond 17 days which I will be the first to agree is not enough, but that is an issue for our negotiating committee and they know my feelings on the subject.

There are always those who would rather chase the almighty buck than have a life outside of Atlas. That is their choice. Those folks are at every company. They call skeds and say they are available to be "extended" whether involuntary or not. Again, their choice because the contract permits it.

Don't confuse commuting to this job with other airline jobs. A good many pilots with other companies commute on their own time and on the jumpseat or space available or offline. With Atlas I can live anywhere in the US and get a bought and paid for ticket to where I need to start. If the plane I commute on is delayed or breaks, NOT my fault. Commuting is a sacrifice you make to live where you want. With Atlas you can darn near live ANYWHERE in the world. From ANC to NYC, SYD/MEL to BKK, Greece, Poland, Italy, England, South America. There are folks here that live all over and make it work.

Atlas is NOT perfect, but it is a good job with some great crews and we are hiring. I agree with TheMessenger. At least those of us at Atlas and Polar have jobs. One shouldn't complain when EVERY major is stagnating or reducing their fleet size and MOST are furloughing.

If Cato has really resigned, I know there are lots of toasts around the world wishing him "interesting days ahead". :}

Cheers

[PCLoadLetter]

So you can see why I say that the data doesn't bear our what either one of you are saying.
The "data" may not match, but they can't be held responsible for what they're being told by the people that claim to be extended. I, too, have heard the tales straight from more than a few Atlas guys' mouths... Not anything as fantastic as 36mos straight of 21 day months, but I'd say one in four of the Atlas guys I've heard the stories from claims that the extensions are far more frequent than YOUR data suggests. Maybe the Atlas story-tellers are full of poo-poo, but those stories are being passed around nonetheless... The possibility of the grumbling Atlas crewmembers exaggerating their tales of woe is at least as possible as the Polar crewmembers exaggerating what they've been told.

[747newguy]

I been with the company for almost 10 years and have been involuntarily extended 3 days maybe one time, two days a few times and one day probably too many (a dozen or so) -- nobody likes to be extended when you have something going on back home --I'm sure there are some crewmembers that have flown 21 days straight for 36 months--but it was probably voluntarily and they were bragging!

[v1andgo]

RR in charge is an upgrade, hands-down.

[jetjock6]

I was hoping RR would have a little more time in MIA to get that 400 program straightened out but he will be a big improvement over Cato.

[nitty-gritty]

With R.R. only time and his actions will tell. I will wait and see. At least it wasn't MB system chief pilot for life as interim Operations VP.

[v1andgo]

I am sure RR will make some personnell changes in Purchase.
MB's government gift of 5 more years might not last.
What a shame

[nitty-gritty]

I think they already have a guy picked as a permanent replacement for the VP of Operations/human resources. Some Ex TWA - American guy. Well spoken of guy. So RR will probably be only temporary. Kind of nice to have R.R. put in ahead of M.B on the pecking order though.... M.B. seriously needs that.

[Miamfreight]

I can appreciate that some or many of you have never or rarely been extended involuntarily but why even let the company have that right. I think you should get the Polar attitude that if you extend me it is going to cost you dearly. Also is the JNC going to just start negotiating off the top of their heads or are they going to put out a poll to the crewmembers to determine their desires?

[nitty-gritty]

I don't think anyone wants less on either side. It's just that one side of this group wants to bring it up as a jab of who has the better contract and then someone on the Atlas side bites on the bait looking for sympathy for their lack of ingenuity or ability to say no to the schedulers. I've had Atlas guys complain that they were extended 7 days involuntarily looking for sympathy and getting none when I know that they volunteered themselves for it (they can only take 4 max at elevated pay rates).

I'm glad that Polar was able to negotiate a quality of life contract under their previous owners. They didn't fair so well under the next management, but they didn't go backwards at least. We can combine our efforts now for an acceptable contract for both sides.

I believe the JNC is using data that the relative Atlas/Polar council reps brought to the table for each side. Atlas had a Wilson Poll of their crew desires for a contract. I don't know what the Polar side did if anything. I don't think the JNC has access to each councils side except through their respective MEC delegated representatives to the JNC. So I guess you should start with your councils negotiation reps first. You can probably just send them to the usually ones R.H. and M.H. despite their recent resignations. I imagine they are running the show from behind their replacements.

On another note of general hate mongering of late. While listening to the Polar MEC latest VAR's (Click Here for 2.5 Mb MP3 (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/pac08252008.mp3)). I see that he further fans the hate among councils. I note that the Chairman didn't mention the fact that the dismissed -200 Polar captain had been the center of attention in two incidents in one day in Incirlik as a DH'der on two different Atlas flight's let alone his unprofessional treatment of Atlas crews DH'ding on his flights later on until his termination. He made himself a target because of it. Now the Polar Chairman is trying to fan the flames further hoping others will do the same. Probably at the cost of more jobs on each side of the equation.

Hopefully everyone else will be professional enough not to take that bait.

[Beaver_Driver]

I note that the Chairman didn't mention the fact that the dismissed -200 Polar captain had been the center of attention in two incidents in one day in Incirlik as a DH'der on two different Atlas flight's let alone his unprofessional treatment of Atlas crews DH'ding on his flights later on until his termination. He made himself a target because of it. Not to mention the fact that he is almost universally reviled by the Polar crews and is the guy who allegedly messed with the computers in the ICN crewroom to publicly excoriate the Atlas crewmembers.

We all need to be professional and stick together. While it is not surprising that the Polar MEC would publicize this, it serves no purpose from a leadership aspect other than to fan the flames of hate and discontent. I notice that the Atlas MEC didn't consider publicizing the name of the Polar crewmember who reported an Atlas guy(s) to the Himms committee.

[742]

I think you should get the Polar attitude that if you extend me it is going to cost you dearly.


Days one and two are 5.47 hours on top of guarantee, plus whatever you are actually flying.

Days three and four are 6.38 hours each. So a three day extension for a typical Captain is worth $2900. Again, plus whatever is actually flown.

Abusive extensions occur, I had a nasty one in November that I am still mad about. However you also have guys going after the money by bidding into trips that are obvious targets for extension (last leg deadheading back from Europe, for example) and/or calling scheduling and offering themselves up. Which is fine, but a few of them then run around complaining about it.

[BELOWMINS]

Ntty & Beaver
Hopefully if you are ever the subject of a termination action by the company you will recieve as much support as you've given to another crewmember. In that eventuality, maybe we can do away with the ordinary arbitration process and proceed directly to the hanging.

[joetommy]

My point exactly. Those rates are ridiculously low. That is why the company pays it. That is why the company has told analysts on the investor conference calls that this is a profit center for them. The company actually says they are screwing us. Please--Please--acknowledge that.

THANKS

[bpp]

... are you saying we have to support a crewmember who's being terminated even if the evidence proves he may be guilty? I'd like to hear both sides first.
bpp

[742]

Those rates are ridiculously low.


What is ridiculously low is Polar's hourly rate. That little issue seems to keep getting passed over.

[Beaver_Driver]

Hopefully if you are ever the subject of a termination action by the company you will recieve as much support as you've given to another crewmember.Not what either of us said. Really, we wonder if Bobb is giving him any support - or is his termination only being used to further Bobb's own divisive agenda. Where is the announcement of a "fund" for him? How is the grievance for him coming? Is he getting legal help from ALPA?

No one said he didn't deserve all the help he could get. But if he did do all the previous stuff the company is aware of (he has been to Purchase; standing on the carpet twice before). Then it might be time to quietly let him go - not use his termination in a feeble attempt to incite Polar crewmembers to retaliate.

[dumbdumb]

We know the pay rates are low and trying to fix it. But when you look at how many days I/we work vs. the W-2 at the end of the year it's not that bad of a gig. Again, time at home to work to live and not live to work is what it's about for me. I'm not one of these that doesn't give a sh&t 'cause I have a military pension to fall on, either.

I haven't done it but I've always thought it would be interesting to take the W-2 and divide the total by number of days on the road. That's where I think it might get interesting. No, don't inlcude your profit sharing, either. Just flat rate by total days worked?

Have a safe holiday weekend for those that can enjoy it. I know I can and it's not like I've been here since the inception of the Polar certificate.

[joetommy]

What are you talking about. If you deadhead on the Polar planes as much as I do. You'd know they don't get involuntary extended as much as the Atlas pilots. Granted their pay is way too low, what does that have to do with the Atlas pilots being extended?????????????????????????????????????????????????

Don't avoid the question. I'm not your enemy. I think I flew with you a couple of times.

THANKS

[BELOWMINS]

bpp
The evidence is supposed to be presented by both sides at a hearing before a neutral arbitrator. If we turn this into a popularity contest conducted anonymously on public weboards, you'd better hope you never end up as one of the contestants.

[nitty-gritty]

I believe the method used by the Polar MEC to describe the situation in his message was done so purposely to incite the pilot groups to go at each others throats. So it seems the chairman is not so concerned about the -200 captain, but wants to use him as a new platform to generate hate. Thus resulting in all the background on the terminated captain by us. You should thank your MEC chairman for that.

As to his termination. You rarely get fired for the things the company really wants to fire you over. You get fired for the stuff that will keep the company out of court later on or can prove without doubt to an arbiter. Corporate 101.

Atlas crews still have the highest section 19 rate in all of ALPA against them as of last year by their company. Kind of shows what we have to deal with regularly. Having followed through a few section 19's, evidence is provided and the dog an pony show goes on among the parties. Then the person gets terminated normally, unless it becomes exceedingly obvious that the company is wrong. At that point, they go to arbitration while the guy is unemployed. We have done very well in arbitration, but many times than not, the guy doesn't get paid for the time at the beginning of the termination to being put back to work.

So I suggest everyone think about that before trying to carry out what the Polar MEC wants.

[742]

What are you talking about. If you deadhead on the Polar planes as much as I do. You'd know they don't get involuntary extended as much as the Atlas pilots. Granted their pay is way too low, what does that have to do with the Atlas pilots being extended?????????????????????????????????????????? ???????

Don't avoid the question. I'm not your enemy. I think I flew with you a couple of times.




I think that at this point we can all agree that deadheading experiences are not an accurate representation of either group.

As for the question, look back on the thread. It goes sort of like this: Atlas pilots work 21 days/monthàno, we don’tàwell, still….demand to get paid for itàwe do.

The only reason that I post anything is that I am tired of this Polar propaganda that we Atlas pilots/engineers are out for 21 days a month every month. We are not. And I am tired of the lectures from the Polar side about their “great” contract. I have read it and am not impressed (which is not to say that I am too impressed with the Atlas one either). And I remember how the Polar contract came into being, which I suspect that many have forgotten.

And then there are the rants about quality of life being more important than money. This was true for me when my kids were small, now that one is in college and the other heading that way it is all about the money. So you see that priorities are different for both different people and different times, and no one has a right to be self righteousness over their current situation.

It is past time that we all deal with reality; not rumors, propaganda or wishful thinking. It is hard to believe that we, as in both groups, are made up of people who are dedicated to doing exactly that when nearing a crappy destination. We have so much fuel, the weather is what it is and the alternates are what they are. We deal with that realistically even when—especially when—we don’t like some of the facts. We need to bring that same mental discipline to this merger process.

[bpp]

Well said!
bpp

[TheMessenger]

If you want to be home more, get a 9 to 5 job. You would be home every night! 17 days away from home is the norm unless you live in ANC. This is how it is. Being an employed pilot who is away form home 17 days sometimes 21, or 9 to 5 and home every night. Make a choice and live with it and quit bitching.

[jetjock6]

Just remember: "This is the life that you have chosen"

[PCLoadLetter]

I think that at this point we can all agree that deadheading experiences are not an accurate representation of either group.
Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?). :ugh:

[Beaver_Driver]

Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?). :ugh:

huh?.... Larry is that you?

[742]

Actually, "we all" can't agree on that in any way. Why should I take YOUR word for it over that of people who told me in person about these experiences? Or is it only stories told by deadheaders that are untrue? How about stories told in airport vans or in crew rooms? Are those fabricated too?

And you decry the "propaganda" from the Polar side, as if noone from Atlas ever makes claims that are of dubious merit... all while minimizing the validity of that which "your" people claim is happening to them. The fact that those same people aren't posting in this thread doesn't mean that they're not saying these things.

Now if these Atlas folks are making these claims erroneously, that's a bizarre bit of behavior that is difficult for any of us to explain... But don't try to paint me or anyone with your "we can all agree" brush (I know, I know, just another contrary Polar crewmember, right?). :ugh:



I believe that the combined crew force is close to 1,000 people. If a relatively few random interactions during deadheading (or in crew vans or crew rooms) have sufficient meaning for you to go ahead and form broad opinions of hundreds of others… well, have at it.

I should have said “most of us”. Because I do have faith that when the merger is done "most of us", indeed the vast majority of us, will fly together without any problems.

[nitty-gritty]

I imagine those that try their best to be a pain to others will eventually be in the same situation as the mentioned -200 captain on the 08-25-08 Polar vars whether they are Atlas or Polar.

[PCLoadLetter]

Because I do have faith that when the merger is done "most of us", indeed the vast majority of us, will fly together without any problems.So do I. I "fly together" with Atlas crew in the back of my airplane NOW without any problems. I, like the vast majority you speak of, will continue to do so... There will be those, however, like several posters here (on both sides of the fence) who will attempt to poison it both during and after the process. THAT is what we can all do without.

[joetommy]

OK, involuntary extension is not an issue. Is that the position of our union?

THANKS

[Beaver_Driver]

JT - I urge you to send your comments directly to the negotiating committee.

Of course involuntary extension is a big issue! But you also have to give the company the flexibility to recover from Weather and Mx events without incurring huge costs. It is all part of negotiation.

Personally, I think you need to make it as expensive for them as you can if taking X days is for anything other than protecting the operation.

Conversly many many guys that you hear are out more than 4 days are out because they need the money. So how does the negotiating committee find a way to accomodate them and those that don't want X days used at all?.

There are also many who are out more than four days because they don't know the contract or are unwilling to hold the companies feet to the fire. The contarct says that you must be "in your base by 23:59 on the fourth X day." If you let them keep you out longer then it is your fault. Also the contract says that X days are to be used to protect the operation. If you let them take even one X day ten days in advance (which in NOT protecting the operation) then it is your fault. And if you let them do it once then they think they can do it all the time.

As I said before I average less than 3 X days PER YEAR. So from my experience, and from my knowledge from a project I worked on for the MEC, there is no one that has done 21 days a month for 36 months straight. There are a few guys who will whore themselve out and then complain about it to no end. They usually shut up when I ask them why they let the company take more than 4. And usually these are the guys who volunteer their entire months.

You keep harping on the X day usage - if you feel you are being abused unfairly then I urge you to contact the MEC or the scheduling committee. They can look into it and get you an actual count of your X days used and advise you on how to combat this - or at least help you to file a grievance.

[layinlow]

Wanting to stay out and having to stay out are two different things. If you want to stay out call the company and ask to stay out, I don't begrudge anyone for that. But to force you to stay out if just plain wrong. People bid according to their needs or wants. The Polar contract is far superior and limits the amount of days allowed to be extended. And when you are required to stay out the company is required to pay 2 hours plus guarantee the first day (6 hrs), 4 hours plus guarantee (8 hrs) the second day and 6 plus guarantee (10 hrs) for the following days, and 12 plus guarantee for anything above 3 days. So although the company can keep you out, it becomes very expensive for them to do so. It forces the company to schedule more efficiently, and is fair to the crew member is working beyond his normal schedule. On the other end, if a person volunteers then there should be no financial penalty to the company either. And although some may think I am not connected to Polar needs to look at the combined seniority list, I do have a say and sent this to the negotiating committee.

[nitty-gritty]

I see the Polar MEC Chairman has done the same job as always of not making friends or allies among the industry brotherhood and the Atlas Chairman took notice of his last message.

The Atlas VARS is out and it looks like the new Atlas Chairman took strong exception to the last statements made by the Polar Chairman's monthly VARS message.

Atlas VARS:
Click Here for HTML Page (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=43662)



The Polar 08-25-08 VARS that started this:
In MP3 Audio 2.5 MB (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/pac08252008.mp3)


On a slight change of subject, is the company move to put everyone up in ANC on the Polar side of the equation still happening?

[L-38]

Per Atlas MEC Vars 09-1-2008 - "The Atlas Air Crewmembers know you for what you are, a liar, with no professional credibility. Next time, just report the facts Bobb . . ."

Wow - Rare and super strong wording from Atlas labor leadership . . even if true . . where is Setzer's professionalism with that kind of verbiage?


Note - For legal protection, a wise college professor of law had once said - always use the preface "in my opinion" when publicly writing such a libelous declaration.

[Beaver_Driver]

Note - For legal protection, a wise college professor of law had once said - always use the preface "in my opinion" when publicly writing such a libelous declaration.hmmmm.....

The classic definition of Libel is: "a publication without justification or lawful excuse which is calculated to injure the reputation of another by exposing him to hatred, contempt or ridicule." (Parke, B. in Parmiter v. Coupland (1840) GM&W 105 at 108)


The two principal defenses to an action for libel are:

Truth/justification. The defendant will succeed if they can substantially justify or prove the truth of the "sting" of the offending statements. Close analysis of the defamatory statement will avoid launching an ill-considered lawsuit.

Fair Comment. This defense will succeed if it can be shown that the statement is comment on facts truly stated.

libel is easily defeated by the truth; so bring it on.
In fact if there is no action for libel then we will all know that what the truth is - and that Bobb knows his VARS is indefensible.

[nitty-gritty]

I wouldn't confuse the Atlas Chairman calling the Polar Chairman a liar as unprofessional. I would just call it well overdue in the light of all the facts past and present, especially when the Polar Chairman is using his lies and insinuations to incite more hatred among the groups .... again. Think of it as "calling it as it is" or a wake up call to keep an incident happening somewhere down the road or in flight with the merged crewmember groups.

Dancing around the Polar Chairman's actions is just going to cost someone their job or worse in the future.

Guess I should add that the Atlas For Teamsters (http://atlasforteamsters.com/) link since they have a message for 08-30-2008 and they will most probably be the next bargaining agent for the two combined companies. They have a text and flash audio link on the main page.

[rob rilly]

Funny how T.H. and K.M. are using new names, but the same B.S. Too funny

[layinlow]

Good catch rob

[free at last]

actually reading you'r reply's I am wondering weather u are pre-teens and not yet pilots:)

[Miami Freight]

Why was the system chief pilot from one airline doing a "ramp check" on another airline?

[cccp68801]

Anyone know how I can get hold of Capt Mirror @ Polar?

AKA Daniel Espejo.

Flaco

AKA CCCP68801:rolleyes:

[PCLoadLetter]

I wouldn't confuse the Atlas Chairman calling the Polar Chairman a liar as unprofessional.
OF COURSE you wouldn't. I would be amazed if you saw ANY fault from your own MEC or anyone at Atlas... We all know everything is Polar's fault, right down to the mysterious over-reaction of your MEC and degenerating into name-calling.

Maybe Henderson will issue a new VARS wherein he puts a hex on Setzer. That would at least be in keeping with his alleged unprofessionalism in light of the highly "professional" behavior of his counterpart at Atlas.

[L-38]

Unnecessary VAR's verbiage of mud only promotes more of the pot calling the kettle black, inclusive of another dizzy round of he said she said.

We don't need any of it - so let's move on and build an airline.

It is well known that as an aviator, the fired Polar Cpt was an excellent, safe and professional team player to fly with. Sadly, he seemed to habitually demonstrate an unusual penchant for tempting fate with management - Atlas, Polar, or not. . . As said before, and especially under such circumstances, you are not fired for the reasons that you are actually fired for.

[nitty-gritty]

Circle those wagons boys. Looks like the truth has hit a sore spot...again within the Polar council. I know it's tough to face, but you will survive.

This is not the first time the Polar Chairman has lied as you all are well aware of. It's just the first time the Atlas Chairman has decided to say enough is enough of the B.S. the Polar Chairman has been spewing to incite further hatred. Going through an Article VIII against the Polar Chairman only resulted in the approval by the ALPA discipline board that the Polar Chairman has a free license to lie on his VAR's saying it's his personal opinion under their verdict despite what the ALPA bylaws say. I'll have to dig that back out. I still have it in pdf someplace.

So judging from your responses, It's OK to be a liar (the Polar Chairman) but not OK to call the liar out on his lies if you are the Atlas Chairman? Guess that says it all about who and what kind of people we are dealing with here.

[PCLoadLetter]

It's just the first time the Atlas Chairman has decided to say enough is enough of the B.S. the Polar Chairman has been spewing to incite further hatred.
More pot-kettle talk. You are doing far more than the Polar chairman to spew and incite... All while pointing one finger at Polar and using the other to plug your ear(s) while hollering "blah blah blah POLAR DID THIS NOW blah blah blah" nonsense.

Only someone with a truly anti-Polar agenda would take that Polar VARS as something worth flinging invective over... Seeing something that isn't there, I'd say. "Your" chairman got himself worked into a froth over nothing, and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. You know, what you accuse "Polaroids" of doing with their own chairman.

Do you ever tire of seeing an anti-Atlas spin to EVERYTHING that comes from the Polar side? I, for one (and probably not just ONE), have gotten quite tired of your own "POLAR BAD POLAR BAD POLAR BAD" rhetoric. How you don't recognize that YOU are worse than anything from Henderson is a complete, total, baffling, comical mystery.

I'd love to think that the JNC will get everything ironed out and we can all just go on with our lives as one big, not-quite-happy-but-at-least-relatively-content family... But then I wonder how many of "YOU" are out there, just waiting to blame something else on Polar. Your posts are almost uniformly unfriendly and riddled with the "hatred" you plonk on the Polar chairman's head... Again, never seeing any fault whatsoever from "your side". This really should be "our side" (increasingly so, to be sure), but I guess if you are consistently seeing Polar as the enemy, there really will never be peace... In any combined operation you'll have your "Oh, this guy was on the Polar side so he's brainwashed" attitude on full display and you'll be quite the treat to work with. I can't wait. :yuk:

[nitty-gritty]

That's pretty rich.

Your Polar Chairman lies and incites hate not just once, but throughout his terms (there is a library of it) and the true culprit for pointing it out is little old me. Not that he has been caught a number of times doing this or that the Polar membership has always sided with him despite the overwhelming facts. A membership that never once attempted recalling him for his actions which indicate that a majority of the polar council don't disagree with his tactics or actions as unethical as they may be. I'm guessing that is what is encouraging the Chairman to continue it.

Oh yea, I'm the one to blame here. I put those words in the polar chairman's mouth to say on his VARS in the past and present. Culminating over the years into the hostility we have now reflected in the -200 captain getting fired thinking he was carrying out his Chairman's interests.

I think a number of you need to grow up quickly and do something for once, otherwise you are just part of the problem. Take charge for once. Many of you have taken the initiative by sending in your cards to stop this continuing favorites game at ALPA to decertify them and get rid of both MEC's by going Atlas for Teamsters (http://atlasforteamsters.com). For that, I thank those. Once the Single Carrier Status is determined by the NMB, Atlas and Polar combined can vote in the new bargaining agent election.

To the rest, you are either very flaccid or backing the polar chairman's unethical actions. Flip a coin on that to see where you land.

If you think we should all "blow off" the polar chairman's continuing actions and statements to incite, then you should seriously re-evaluate what is ethical.

[free at last]

Amen!!!!! Well said, and hope both sides will work as a team, as you all should. Good luck to you future!:cool:

[L-38]

Nitty - What's it going to take for you to spool down and re-light, as you seem hung. - Not hung in the pants, but hung on people that possibly have little remaining impact on your ultimate future.

Track to the waypoint ahead Nitty, not to that of where you have been.:)

[BELOWMINS]

Remember....Just because your paranoid it doesn't mean they are not really after you.

[Beaver_Driver]

Nitty - What's it going to take for you to spool down and re-light, as you seem hung. - Not hung in the pants, but hung on people that possibly have little remaining impact on your ultimate future.
An apology would be a start.

[Fr8Dog]

"Remember....Just because your paranoid it doesn't mean they are not really after you."

Belowmins, You can't even get this right.

It's supposed to be just because your NOT paranoid.

But why should you start being right all of a sudden! :ugh:

[L-38]

An apology would be a start
An apology from whom?

Bobb H and crew are already at the end of their terms. For Atlas crews to frett over them would be as useless as fretting over yesterday's flight plans.

(I would personally apologize for R Fell however, but I had little to do with him at the time . . though he did serve his membership well when relating to Polar's prior management)

[jetpilot007]

Wow... it's really amazing that this thread is still here.

Ok.. I have a question to Polar MEC now.

Now I see that Atlas MEC publicly accusing Polar MEC a liar, right ?

If Polar MEC was telling the truth about Polar Captain being fired because
of Atlas Crewmember, then I believe Polar MEC should file a law suit
against Atlas MEC for this false accusation.

Now I am asking to Polar MEC and Polar Crewmembers.
Did or will Polar MEC file a law suit against Atlas MEC for false accusation ?

If the answer is no, then the outsider like me would have no choice but to
think that the Polar MEC is the liar all along. Because Atlas guy have been
post Atlas Vars on this thread and I now begining to believe Atlas pilots
than Polar pilots.

And I still think this thread should be closed long time ago.

I wish you, Polar and Atlas, the best for upcoming merger.

[Furloughed]

I listened to both VARS.

Polar says it was reported by an Atlas crewmember.

Atlas confirms an Atlas check airman submitted a crew report over the incident in question then calls Polar a liar.

I'm confused.

[BELOWMINS]

Thanks FURLOUGHED.
I thought I was the only one who read it that way.

[nitty-gritty]

As normal, the interest in continuing and understanding what is said in whole stops when a piece fits someone's needs on one side of this.

So I will devolve also:

Captain Henderson yet again conveniently forgot to tell the "Rest of The Story", to borrow a phrase from Paul Harvey. The Polar Air Crewman in question was terminated after numerous complaints by crewmembers of both Polar and Atlas for failing to conduct briefings in a professional manner and without harassment.The Polar Chairman's intent by omission and redirection, listening to the whole message, is to incite further hate by attempting to say it is an Atlas Crew issue that caused all of this. It is really a Polar Chairman issue of hate that is carried on to keep his membership rallying around him. Noted by selective recognition of only pieces of the message by a large number of the membership. It is also being carried on by the membership and resulting in the recent termination of the Polar -200 captain in question with the Polar chairman's subliminal, if not outright encouragement to do so at no risk to the chairman himself.

The big question here is if your going to recognize it and stop the cycle.

[Best Angle]

You guys are twisting this around to call it a lie. Bobb just stated what happened.

[Beaver_Driver]

Not telling the full story is a lie by omission.

[Miamfreight]

When the Atlas chairman defended the Atlas crew who had a tail strike out of PIK did he tell the truth? Yes, he told the truth, not necessarily the whole story. His job is to defend his crewmembers and his CBA, just as is the MEC chairman of every council. The Polar chairmand did not lie and did not speak in an inflammatory manner. Here is the paragraph in question.

I would like to thank the Polar Crewmembers that have taken the time to answer the questionnaire that I posted on our web page regarding the wearing of the Company uniform and giving the supernumerary briefing. For those Crewmembers that have not responded, I ask that you take the time to do so. One of our Classic Captains has been terminated for not wearing his uniform and failing to give the briefing to several deadheading Atlas crewmembers. Any responses received will be kept confidential and not used in any hearing or divulged to the Company without the consent of the individual involved. Keep in mind that these alleged violations were reported by a deadheading Atlas crewmember on one occasion and by a member of Atlas management on the other occasion. Please ensure that you conduct your flights with the outmost of professionalism at all times and comply with the Company’s uniform and briefing policies.

I don't see an attack on the Atlas crewmembers here and the previous actions of the accused Captain are not germain to the communication.

I think the most significant part of Captain Henderson's message dealt with the ALPA merger policy and the right of the Atlas and Polar crewmembers to ratify any joint contract. Why did Captain Setzer pick such an insignificant topic to rant upon when such a huge issue was placed in front of him?

[nitty-gritty]

Considering our history's, why did your chairman choose to state:

One of our Classic Captains has been terminated for not wearing his uniform and failing to give the briefing to several deadheading Atlas crewmembers. Any responses received will be kept confidential and not used in any hearing or divulged to the Company without the consent of the individual involved. Keep in mind that these alleged violations were reported by a deadheading Atlas crewmember on one occasion and by a member of Atlas management on the other occasion.

There were many more better ways to say it unless he was purposely attempting to incite and continue the hate campaign within the Polar membership towards the Atlas membership by stating only "Part" of the information that would only reflect negatively towards the Atlas group. The other unmentioned germane facts in this case exemplify the polar Chairman's agenda to continue the hate. He could have done it without taking a slap what-so-ever at the Atlas crew force, but he chose to swing away by lying by omission to continue his hate campaign against the Atlas crewmembers.

I bounced this off four other guys (two Astar, one Evergreen and one UPS guy) to check to see if I'm really flying off the handle and to see what a third party thought. They all caught it without prompting, and it seems the only folks that didn't are at Polar. Imagine that.

Once again since it's a page back in reference to the VARS:

Polar Chairman's VARS 08-25-2008 in mp3 2.5 MB (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/pac08252008.mp3)

Atlas VAR's 09-01-2008 (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=43662)

[rob rilly]

Good thing they didn't check their list, or you would have been bounced from the flight. Well maybe not at Everzone. Get over yourself. They all have read your rant on the other board.

[nitty-gritty]

Another stunning comeback from rob_rilly. Outdone yourself this time. Four sentences and you got to insult a whole other ALPA council. Guess you haven't put a dent in that case of beer yet or you had a epiphany of thought uncharacteristic in your previous posts.

Too bad any list generated by the polar council and your comments have the same level of credibility as your polar chairman in the industry. Assumed to be a lie until proven otherwise to all except the polar membership.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/rob/logs.pl

[layinlow]

rob rilly had it wrong. He doesn't need a list. Captain's authority is absolute.

[BELOWMINS]

Nitty
So much for insulting a whole ALPA council.
I guess supposed insults only apply if directed toward Atlas crewmembers.

[CR2]

I think this thread has run its course again.