Too close for comfort??

[Roger10-4]

For the second time in two days I've had an aircraft come a little too close for comfort. Flying in the Vale of York today in a C150 on a constand heading an aircraft overtook me from above (around 250-300ft above me) and then began descending through my intended path from around 2000ft into the visual circuit at X airfield. At the time I was receiving a FIS but didn't receive any prior warning about the traffic. The guy clearly wasn't in contact with any unit and I proceeded to land at the same airfield. When I approached him he stated that he didn't even see me and never knew I was even there! What could I have done to prevent this? I was in a high wing a/c so I could only see him once he was in front of me. Would I have been better having a RIS? Did I let him off too lightly? Anyone had any similar experiences?

Thanks

[NigelOnDraft]

Roger... You won't like my reply ;) I was in a high wing a/c so I could only see him once he was in front of meErrr... whenever I flew a "high wing" (152 etc.) it had windows out the back... so if I maintained a good lookout (which includes covering from nearly 6oc one side to the other) I would hope to have seen him approaching ;)

At the time I was receiving a FIS but didn't receive any prior warning about the trafficNot sure a FIS should have done so :sad:

The guy clearly wasn't in contact with any unit And :ooh:

What could I have done to prevent this?An active lookout :ugh: I presume you were VFR ;)

Would I have been better having a RIS? Again, not sure a RIS has any guarantee that they will warn you, let alone give you avoiding action, of VFR traffic :=

Did I let him off too lightly?What's it to do with him :(

Anyone had any similar experiences?Most of my training, where failure to spot the "intruder" equalled a "failed trip", and in Operational Experience, probably equallled "dead" :{

As I said, a harsh reply... But if you are flying VFR, then a midair takes "2 to tango" i.e. each at fault. You cannot rely on the "system" or "the other guy" to avoid... you, and you alone, are responsible for the safety of your airacraft. Yes - more airmanship/lookout from him, a better FIS, might have helped, but.... If you are high wing / low wing or whatever, you still need to ensure you are looking out and covering ALL angles :8

Told you wouldn't like it :ok:

NoD

[Roger10-4]

I appreciate SOME of your comments. However don't assume I have a back window. I never said I expected the FIS to do so just an observation? Whats it to do with him? Well I think to fly straight over the top of someone and descend through them you deserve a slap in the face quite frankly.

[eharding]

Well I think to fly straight over the top of someone and descend through them you deserve a slap in the face quite frankly.


Saints preserve us from another sky-god in a spamcan seeking to assert his rights to the open FIR by resorting to Queensberry Rules.

We've already established the mate in the other can didn't see you - and it comes as a surprise to you that as he clearly hadn't seen you when he went over the top then he wasn't going to somehow use some Jedi mind-reading trick to discern your "intended course" and keep clear of it?

Every sortie teaches us something new. On this one you learned that there will always be someone out there having a worse brain-fart day than you, and your best bet is to give them a wide berth while they do so. Next time, it could be your turn.

Nice use of smilies by NoD, by the way.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Open FIR, therefore you see and avoid. Don't rely on anything, especially not an FIS.

There is no requirement for the other aircraft to be talking to anyone and it is best not to assume that if you are talking to one station, they won't be talking to another, if any.

Keep your eyes open and as eharding has mentioned, don't get all aggressive about it. That is simply how it is. They wouldn't have descended in front of you had they seen you, that is for sure.

You made the mistake of assuming traffic would be aware of you and maybe the other a/c made the mistake of not talking to the same unit as you. It doesn't matter who was in the wrong if you are tumbling out of the sky after a mid air.

You've already had good advice on this thread. The best advice would be to absorb it. FIS and RIS give absolutely no guarantees of traffic avoidance and only a fool would rely on them, especially if flying VFR in good conditions.

It is a big sky, but you need to know the limitations of your a/c, especially in regard to blindspots and the problems associated with high wing and low wing machines whilst looking out.

Take it as a learning experience and don't get all aggresive about mistake you percieve others to have made. It just makes you sound like a nobber.

[Human Factor]

Roger,

Well I think to fly straight over the top of someone and descend through them you deserve a slap in the face quite frankly.

If he saw you and then did it, I'll hold him while you slap him but you tell us he says he didn't see you, which if he flew over the top of you is entirely plausible. As you didn't see him coming either, if that isn't fifty-fifty, I don't know what is.

As some of my best instructors used to say:

L:eek:KOUT

[BackPacker]

Get a faster airplane, then you'll be the one doing the overtaking...:ouch:

Seriously though. Aircraft below you, against a backdrop of a typical countryside or town are notoriously hard to spot. Only if the background is a uniform color (sea or sky) do you stand a chance of spotting another aircraft from a reasonable distance away. And flying with lights and strobes on only helps so much.

I know this is not taught formally, but wiggling your wings or altering your course temporarily makes you a moving target, even if only for a short while, instead of a stationary target, in the eyes of the other party, which much greater chance of visual acquisition. And if the other guy wiggles back, that's an informal confirmation that he's seen you.

Although, in this particular case, I can't see how the situation could have been avoided.

[xraf]

Morning all!

Well, I've done what they say to do.... I read the thread, I counted to ten, I walked away from the computer and I even had a coffee but on my return all I can say is still..OMG!!!:\

I like the 'sky God in a spamcan' comment - well done!:D

Here's my 2p...

The mark one human eyeball is and always has been your only form of defence, if your aircraft doesn't have a back window - look out more!:ugh:

If you strap into one of the queen's speedy little darts with a big helmet on and God knows what else restricting your movements and holding you down, that does not open up the excuse "I cant see, sir!" The answer will be - Look out more!:ugh:

I seem to regularly be saying to people these days that we don't sit there like Captain Kirk with his 'sensors at maximum' we have to look out of the window whether at 100mph or 1000mph. The non flyers in the audience often look askance but this thread seems to be started by a qualified pilot who doesn't understand that either.

There is no excuse for not seeing an aircraft in the sky wherever it is, there is no wriggle room in this sport/pastime/industry, call it what you will, for this kind of slack behaviour these kind of errors - KILL PEOPLE, usually you and often someone else as well.

Of course, as human beings we are all capable of failure and I like everyone else has at one time or another suddenly noticed another a/c but to start from the viewpoint that it was competely the other guy's fault shows a dangerous attitude and probably a lack of training in this area. Consider for example the type and frequensy of scan you use, are you focussing on the GPS? or anything else in or out of the cockpit, ideally, your head should never stop moving.

Also, at the risk of 'going on a bit' :rolleyes: you need to figure out what assistance to expect for the different types of ATC service. In your post you said that perhaps you should have had an RIS. Unfortunately, this again shows that you are trying to absent responsibility and control from the cockpit - where it belongs - to an outside agency who have neither authority nor control of you in the open FIR.

On the plus side no one was injured and if the responses on here, which happily all seem to be in accord, fill in some gaps for you and maybe the other guy too if he also visits here, then thats good. Remember though, experience will only serve to instruct if you let it, arguing that it was somebody elses fault, although the 'modern way' will not help you or the rest of us in the sky.

Apologies for the length of the response, must be a bit cranky this morning, but I genuinely feel there are few more serious and basic issues than lookout, and so little time is devoted to it now it is quite possible to imagine that it doesn't matter!

Rant off.

Regards to all
Happy and Safe Flying
Xraf:ok:

[lauchiemb]

Imagine if you made a mistake, like the other pilot did. would you expect a slap in the face? I suspect not.

I am unaware of any regulations relating to air rage but I strongly suggest that you either seek counseling and renew your medical (if you can get one).

If anyone sees Rofer 10-4 on their travels, I would give him a wide berth, since he is clearly of unfit mind.

[Mariner9]

Go slap both the pilot of an aircraft that didn't see you so couldn't possibly avoid you, then go do the same to the ATCO/FISO providing FIS who was under no obligation to advise you of any traffic, particularly when that traffic was not in contact with him and chances are he didn't even know it was there.

Then use the time in Gaol due to assault charges to revise the Air Law sections on collision avoidance and the services provided on a FIS ;)