Attention:Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants Accommodation

[QFLHFA]

17 May 2008
Attention all Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants

Update on Room Allocation and Seniority

Last week I wrote to you and advised you that the Company have changed the Compliance Sheet so that crew appear in Category order and alphabetically. Further, the hotels also receive information in Alphabetical order now as well.
We have been inundated with calls and emails from Flight Attendants, Supervisors and Managers, whose mood has been less than overjoyed at suddenly being allocated hotel rooms on the basis of their fathers surname without recognition of their years of service.
Furthermore our newer members as well as AKL and BKK crew have also found the whole process de-motivating, and before crew start reacting in ways that would be unedifying we ask for patience so that we can try and find a sensible solution with the Company.
I have spoken to senior management over this weekend and they have agreed to meet on Monday to try and find a sensible and practical resolution. I think it would be fair to say that some have underestimated how important these “little” things are for crew.
There is a chain of command on an aircraft that works in Seniority Order, and that is part of our CCOM. There is no reason to depart from a system that worked for everyone.
Under the established system if your name is Zimmerman your seniority will determine work position and hotel room allocation, under the newly “non agreed” process you will find yourself at the end of room selection and work position selection for the rest of your career. Seniority moves up, your name doesn’t normally change.
As I said previously, “Aaron Aardvark” formerly known as Steven Reed could well be the future for all of us, if we cannot get some simple changes agreed next week.
Please be patient, I am hopeful a sensible solution can be found.
Witten and authorised by Steven Reed – President International Division

[QFLHFA]

How does this make you feel?

[cartexchange]

just a sign of things to come

[joeflyguy]

haha ..... rotten bas'tards..... the rot is setting in all over now aint it

[QFLHFA]

The Discussion

"QCCA crew would know that the Company wished to maintain a “fair share” system for work allocation. However, we pointed out that the use of the alphabet discriminates against those whose names are at the end of the alphabet, and that is hardly fair share."

"FA (QCCA, AKL, BKK in random order) not alphabetical"


Is a random order a “fair share” system for QCCA?

[cartexchange]

it would be so much easier if the hotel rooms and work positions went on D.O.J.
its simple, effective, and easy.
The alphabetical system is very very discriminatory.

who's idea was it anyway....

the AKL based crew will be surprised to hear this from me, but their work positions should be on seniority

[skylarker]

the AKL based crew will be surprised to hear this from me, but their work positions should be on seniority

Well all seniority isn't fair either as QCCA who started yesterday for example would be senior to AKL and BKK crew.
DOJ would definitely be the fairer option as long as it involved all crew right across all bases.

Just my two bobs worth.

[Qantart]

Hhhmmmm,

I do suspect this is the start of things to come.. How do other airlines manage allocation of positions? I don't think seniority is the case with all airlines.

[Door_One_Right]

One airline I worked for allocated work positions according to DOJ. We had about 6 crew bases at the time and seniority was based on DOJ regardless of base.

Other airlines, the SCCM would either allocate before the briefing, distributing the experience evenly or would just ask "who wants to work where?" and we just worked it out amongst ourselves. Our newbies had 'position cards' which recorded what positions they had worked previously and they needed to work all the positions a few times, including galley, so this had to be taken into account when the more senior crew chose where to work.

Assigning positions alphabetically was obviously thought up by someone who has never flown. I can't help but wonder if this is to demotivate senior crew so they will leave.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-
"I can't help but wonder if this is to demotivate senior crew so they will leave."

Correct.

It is also designed to avoid the situation that currently exists in airlines where, the more senior you become the more/better "choices" you have.

Can't have happy crew hanging around past their "use by" date, can we??

QF management really are nothing more than ideologically driven, lowlife.

[skylarker]

And today's update from the FAAA.

http://www.faaa.net/showfile.asp?id=1423&type=N

Just goes to show who the union thinks are more important.
I guess they didn't like the preallocated system as this wouldn't give the QF LH crew the choice either. If all QCCA/AKL/ and BKK crew were preallocated that means QFLHCC would be theoretically last to choose work positions.
This whole thing is a complete balls up and just another way to divide crew....pffft

[QFLHFA]

The differences between QF and QCCA employes are outlined in EBA8. At the moment it appears the union is favouring one group more than the other.

I guess it is hard for the union to do this though, since there employee representation is only comming from a Qantas employee and not a QCCA employee.

[speedbirdhouse]

Perhaps the FAAA were unable to convince qantas management to budge on their position re QCCA in what I'm sure they consider a, "greenfield operation".

The FAAA can jump up and down as much as they like but QF do make the decisions............

[cartexchange]

ok here we go! skylarker and QFLHFA are starting the whining and crying about the union favouring one group over the other.
At present the majority of crew are QFLH and the QCCA are a very small minority.
However, this union at the moment is actually supporting the QCCA quite strongly, just read that hideous newsletter that was written recently by the union titled
8 May 2008
Attention all Qantas Longhaul Flight Attendants
ELECTION FOR DIVISIONAL SECRETARY

If you think the union is not supporting you then read this newsletter, it infuriated a lot of LH crew, it was seen as very insulting to the QFLH crew, as the vast majority have welcomed the QCCA crew and continue to do so.
Why they published this letter is beyond many of us as we had no idea that such thoughts or comments were being circulated.

Anyway, stop your whining and let QF management know how you feel about the allocation of work positions.
I can assure you that the current QCCA employees will want some say of where they go and where they work in about 5 years time!

[QFLHFA]

I dissagree with your interpretation of the letter dated 8 May 2008.

For the FAAA to be supporting both QCCA and QFA they need to suggest to Qantas for alined proposals for workplace and hotel room allocation.

The divisions between the two are outlined in EBA8, for the FAAA to even propose to Qantas to serperate them any futher (after Qantas bought them together using an Alphabetical order) only supports the fact that they only considering what's best for QFA.

The fact is that QCCA is going to grow, and for the FAAA to not be behind the small group that they are now will only find themselves with a smaller percentage of members from the Long Haul CC division than what they are currrently used to. You can't win without numbers.

[cartexchange]

Nonsense...................

[QFLHFA]

Speak to a colleague employeed under how QCCA's conditions, ask how they feel? You have nothing to loose since the union didn't.

The Union must remember to consider and support QCCA as equally as QFA or they will find themselves in a weak position. They will loose members. I already heard talk of crew resigning from the Union and the group has only been around for 3 months.

[cartexchange]

QFLHFA

just leave if you dont like it!
Honestly you seem hell bent on causing trouble.
MAM at s/haul are waiting for you, now go on go back, we really dont need your ilk Here at LH....go on, stop your whining and get back to MAM.
Your collegues are having a good time here, realy enjoying themselves,
ITS JUST YOU!

[QFLHFA]

After reading your posts, you are the one causing trouble attacking other forum posters.

I'm state facts and I'm interested in other peoples opinions.

I understand thats difficult for you, it is something a lot of us at Qantas aren't used to, interested in someone else's opinon. Your previous responses are evident to that.

[cartexchange]

just go back will you!

Honestly we dont need your negativity, NOW scadadle!!! go on!

[Bla_Bla]

would like to share with all u guys that I have been talking to a lot of my QCCA colleagues and the vast majority that has joined the union has done so only because they had a "deal" of not charging new QCCA FA's till the end of this financial year. the problem that the union will face is that I have not met one single QCCA FA that has said that they will sign up after that and pay the $ 625 yearly fee. it will be very very interesting to see how many new members the union will have next financial year.
in regards to the whole seniority thing and room allocation, recently a new FA, that i know, when checking in in sin was asked by another senior QF crew for her room keys because he had swapped their rooms around . I couldnt believe his audacity. I totally respect and understand how seniority is important but doing that was wrong wrong wrong. after all its just a room. cant c the difference of staying on the 50th, 35th, 25th or 11th floor.

[cartexchange]

bla bla.......... are you sure about this deal......re the membership waiver, if so this is outrageous.
can anyone shed some light on this/

[QFLHFA]

Granny, want something to knit in crew rest. Maybe your mouth?

[Bla_Bla]

i am 110% sure about that as i am a QCCA FA myself.
i dont wanna get to political here but, under my current pay there is no way i can afford $ 625 bucks per year . and that goes for a LOT of my friends that fly. i honestly dont know 1 that has said they will renew/ take up their membership.
( as i said i dont wanna get involved in the pay thing as ii is my choice to be here ).

but i guarantee you, that, in my opinion the union will have no members from QCCA when the next financial year kicks in.
the excellent "deal" they got us will bite the FAAA back in their B****.
time will tell. no members no $.

[UDP]

I can confirm the FAAA did waiver membership til July 1st. I am a new recruit and was advised by the FAAA directly and the Union Rep that spoke to us in ground school.
I would have joined then anyway! First impressions are that QF management aren't the most engaging bunch that ever ran a business.

[Pegasus747]

During Training School and coming out onto reserve line was deemed by the FAAA particularly tough financially for the new QCCA crew. Furthermore during probation, new employees have no access to unfair dismissal laws. It was therefore deemed a recruiting exercise to offer a short waiver of fees to new flight attendants until the start of the financial year.

In the mean time the FAAA have met with the company almost daily in the implementation of EBA 8. for both QCCA and QAL crew.

The EBA deals with semiority for QAL crew but not QCCA no do AKL BKK or LHR have seniority.

The debacle over alphabetical started when the Kiwi crew objected to the QCCA crew being given choice of room allocation and work position ahead of them.

They got their Union to approach Qantas for recognition of their "seniority".

CC Management immmedialtely reacted by withdrawing the seniority numbers of not only the Kiwi crew but everyone other than QAL crew wwhere the EBA requires them to use seniority.

They moved to an alphabetical system that had unintended consequences for everyone and the FAAA has been trying to clean up the mess ever since.

The FAAA position is clearly Start Date for everyone. Until QCCA crew start putting pressure on Qantas for recognition of their start date and telling them they dont want the so called fair share it will not happen,

Further, if the QCCA crew arent members of the union then they have no representation. That would be just plain stupid and my experience is that they are anything but stupid.

They will continue to be members of the FAAA in the same percentages as QAL crew, and if they dont then only they will suffer not the QAL crew i can assure you all.

Without representation Qantas will just do whatever they want including sacking you for looking sideways or not carrying a waiters cloth.

Remember that many of these managers are lunatics

[peanut pusher]

It's easy!!!

You know the rules before you start and if you don't like them then don't join.

If you like the rules welcome, nice to have as part of the team and together we'll get you better conditions.

United we stand and devided we give bonus points.:ugh:

[stubby jumbo]

.......which toadstool did you pop up from???

First we have Pegasus, then, Guardian 1.......what next do we get from the latte sippers from the bunker ?

This was always going to happen, ie. step by step dismantling of the Seniority system. Lets face it boyz and girlsz-QCCA will have ALL the power in 5 years time.

The next EBA -we'll be hammered and the seniority system will be all but forgotten-just like the beach that use to come up to the steps at the Gulf Hotel !!!:8

Just like that Monty Python Pet Shop sketch.

WAKE UP POLLY PARROT !!!!..........THIS BIRD IS EXTINCT !

[Pegasus747]

Stubby i dont share your pessimistic view in fact i think quite the opposite will occur.

Far from the QCCA crew wanting to get rid of seniority i am already hearing that if anything that they want to be part of it.

And i for one agree with them. Seniority plain and simple just works.

Fair share is horse**** .....its just a recipe for corruption and allowing the company to play with rosters as they see fit. i for one am totally against anything other that recognition of years of service. It doesnt have to be the be all and end all but it must be given appropriate recognition

[Bla_Bla]

couldnt agree more with u. at the end of this EBA 8 QCCA will outnumber QAL and with all honesty we ( and i speak for the friends that i have ) dont give a rats a** about seniority.
we, that have come from MAM, are used to NO seniority. and in terms of how up u r in the "hotel" seniority ladder, love, i wont even go there. as i previously said its just a room. and as i heard the other day from a QCCA flight attendant's mouth: " that b***h can have the 43rd floor. i am happy on the 11th . its just a room and in case there's a fire im closest to the ground than she is !!!".
that said, cant wait to c hwo many QCCA members the union will have.
and yes A_B_P and UDP, there r 2 of u. congrats.
i wish i could afford the current union fees. i am and have always been union pro, dont take me wrong. my problem is i can not afford $625 per year. and when i say that, i assure you, i am not alone. in my case and in many others it is an affordability problem.
in short haul the union would cost me about $300 per year. have always been a member since the day i joined. but that was half than the current membership. in my case i have bills coming out of my pores. do u know how much i could stock up my pantry with $ 625 ? food to last me a while. i knw its sad but its reallity.
would love the FAAA to come up with a better deal after the end of this financial year. as a short haul casual we only paid half the ammount that the QF SH crew, which was a really good deal for eveybody. its just a suggestion. and not once i heard any QF SH crew saying that it was unffair.

[Qantart]

Solution to union fees!!!

Considering QCCA are paid almost $30,000 less than QLH crew, perhaps the FAAA should consider reducing QCCA union fees by 50%, or better more, increase the fees of QLH crew to cover the fees of QCCA crew... I think that's a fair deal, I'm sure the QLH crew would also.

[QFLHFA]

It frustrates me to hear QFA crew talking about low wages of other cabin crew when in fact QCCA are have the lowest base salary for cabin crew in Australia. I am so embarrassed they even comment about it. Then some also ask them about their conditions yet they voted them in? I guess a majority of people just saw the $'s Qantas threw and ticked yes? Bit like dangling a carrot infrot of a rabbit.

I also agree that QCCA will outnumber QF in 5 years time, if they don't outnumber them, the percentage will be at least half if not more, and without their involvement with the union QFA are toast.

QF looked for crew with previous flying experience in most cases when hiring for QCCA.Most have come from other airlines which don't use seniority, MAM, Jetstar, Emirates, Virgin, Tiger, Qantaslink, so I doubt crew from QCCA really care for it now, especially since QCCA will be at the bottom of a very old list.

I also support the theory of QCCA paying a reduced rate of union fee's it should be based on your salary. If QF can create a B scale that the union supported, then the union should support it by offering a B scale membership fee.

[Bad Hat Harry]

Union fees are tax deductible.
The downturn in the current aviation cycle will probably slow the growth of QCCA as routes are culled and aircraft parked
QFLHFA sounds like the reincarnation of an extinct troll

[QFLHFA]

Say what you like about me. I'm stating my opinion based on what I heard at work. I understand it is scary to hear and accept the truth.

[Bla_Bla]

couldnt agree more with some of the points mentioned here.
if the union could come up with a reduced membership rate im in. i know its tax deductable but i have to come up with the ocsts up front and wait a whole financial year to c some of it back. not fun !
and as QFLHFA mentioned, a lot of current QCCA crew have been hired form other airlines without seniority, hence my comment a few threads behing that we dont give a rats a** about seniority. we have all lived without it. and yes we will outnumber u guys. ( although i doubt i will be around till the next EBA to c it anyway... )
A_B_P when u say: " I have been shown nothing but empathy for our position from the current crew regarding our wages..." ; i would bloody hope so considering they r the ones that voted the big YES.
i hear a lot of QFLH crew saying things like: OMG! i cant believe they r doing this to you. this roster is apawling. pooor thing... bla bla bla - and that should be illegal. they wouldnt be able to do that to us... and so on... u know what ? i never say anything but at times i feel like saying: SAVE UR PITY. I HOPE U ENJOYED UR $3K BRIBE.
its all down hill from now on. and in my opinion this seniority thing is just the begining. enjoy the ride.

[UDP]

As a QCCA member I am at the bottom of the barrel for rosters, hotels and all the rest of it. If I was a brand new QF Airways cabin crew on the QF eba, I would be at the bottom of the barrel.
I stand back when checking into hotels, Not because of the QF seniority but out of courtesy to other crew who are flying. If someone wants the 43rd floor facing the Pacific Ocean go for it. Its yours. I am not paying for it so I am not going to make demands for it.
I am happy to have a job and be flying. :ok:
I support the Union and respect the crew that have been in the job longer than me and we are all adults so thats all that matters.

[Pegasus747]

An unfair termination costs the same for a QCCA crew member as for QAL crewmember. Generally around 30-40k. Not including the time of the union officials.

For those suggesting reduced fees are they suggesting that the FAAA should also pro rate the amount of money spent on a defence and say only spend 15-20K

The reality is that the cost of membership is tax deductible and i can assure you that the FAAA will offer the same level of representation to QCCA members as QAL members.

The SH FAAA has a range of fees and even with that half the MAM's were not members. and SH flight attendants are resigning in droves apparently.

If you get into trouble and you are not an FAAA member dont expect any assistance. Income is one factor, but the FAAA fought for the same meal allowances, theh same overtime triggers and a range of other things to be the same. Much better than Jetstar conditions. If you want to pro rate the fees then perhaps you should pro rate the meal allowances and everything else.
The FAAA fees pay for a service and if you dont feel that it represents value for money then dont join. But then dont complain that you dont have a voice or a vote.

If you want to get better conditions the solidarity of the union is the only thing that will achieve it. If you are not FAAA members then your conditions will never improve.

QCCA crew have promotional opportunities that would not be there in MAM , they get the same annual leave and Long Service leave as QAL crew, Same meal allowances etc ...all fought for in the negotiations by the FAAA.

Ask an FAAA rep what the company really wanted and why it took two years of talks to achieve the EBA outcome.

WIthout the FAAA and current long haul crew voting for it, then the jobs wouldnt exist or if they did it would be on massively reduced conditions.

If you feel that the fees are too much then you should write to the FAAA, i am sure there are no closed minds on the executive and a reasonable approach should be discussed rationally. Just bear in mind that after tax its not a lot of money compared to the benefits

[UDP]

Well Dixons-son you are obviously more ill-mannered than I am.

[QFLHFA]

Standing back when crew check into the hotel doesn't make a difference as room allocation is organised by hotels before the crew arrive.

[QFLHFA]

Peg.. few questions/comments

You said:
"If you want to get better conditions the solidarity of the union is the only thing that will achieve it. If you are not FAAA members then your conditions will never improve."

I don't think the Union heard any complaints from any QCCA crew members when the alphabetic system was introduced. The only thing the FAAA was concerned about was QFA, QCCA were quite happy having seniority taken from under QFA's feet in order to have an equal chance of workplace allocation.

You said:
"QCCA crew have promotional opportunities that would not be there in MAM , they get the same annual leave and Long Service leave as QAL crew, Same meal allowances etc ...all fought for in the negotiations by the FAAA."

It doesn't take a mathemation to calculate that company preffer QCCA for promotional positions when they can pay them 50k to do the job rather than 100k. Look at the entry level for flight attendants now compared to what QFA get at entry level.

Seriously, if the union wants to keep QCCA members I suggest they think of something very fast. Pretty bad if they gave crew 3 months free membership and didn't even prove their worthiness to them in that time by favouring QFA.

[twiggs]

The only thing the FAAA was concerned about was QFA, QCCA were quite happy having seniority taken from under QFA's feet in order to have an equal chance of workplace allocation.

The change that the company implemented had no effect on work position allocation for QAL crew, seniority was always going to be used.
The people that are going to be inconvenienced by the change to compliance sheet order are BKK, AKL and QCCA.
I think you will find the main reason the FAAA are contending this issue is to protect the right for those groups to choose work position on seniority, not QAL crew.

The lists provided to hotels was the only change that would affect all crew, and the only part of this dispute that affects QAL crew.

Therefore I would suggest that the FAAA are fighting for all crew in this dispute.

[Pegasus747]

The FAAA intervened because they felt that Alphabetical lists were certainly not fair share, and certainly breached the EBA for the work position selection for part 1 flight attendants and would have disadvantaged any QCCA member whose name was at the ass end of the alphabet.

The FAAA was inundated with calls from QCCA and QAL crew all wanting to get rid of the alphabetical approach.

All including QCCA members wanting recognition of their start date without exception, but QCCA were happy to have something other than alphabetical if they couldnt have seniority.

A380 is the place to go if you want no seniority. All crew will be treated exactly the same and have the same work rules.

All work positions will be pre-allocated. for the QCCA crew that are happy with that there will be hundreds of positions for them to apply for on A380.

All crew will be equal there so there shouldnt been any complaining over there. Sounds like utopia doesnt it lol

[QFLHFA]

Twigg, who said that it wasn't for the worksheet? ReRead the email headline.

What is the final outcome anyway?

[Pegasus747]

the company's irrational decision to play with worksheets and compliance sheets,. hotel allocation and the chain of command was as a result of "dogma" read the FAAA newsletter.

[veronica]

I hate to tell you all that I told you so, but "I told you so!".

Friction between QF Crew and QCCA crew was always going to occur because of the introduction of the B Scale and inferior conditions by the LHCC as a result of agreeing to a poor EBA.

Now very soon after the introduction of the QCCA crew (who I love flying with because they're all fresh and keen, unlike others!), the %#* is beginning to hit the fan. Alphabetical lists, hotel rooms, crew taking others rooms. All minor stuff. Can you imagine what a bunfight between the two groups there will be when something serious actually arises (if this is anything to go by)

The beginning of the end for unity and all one group. :{

Playing right into QF's hands: and you guys weren't able to see it when they delivered the EBA up to you. Take the money and run, and now the consequences are beginning to bite. :*

[roamingwolf]

veronica.so for the millionth time what do you reckon the union should have triedto get in the eba?

This bunfight started with the kiwi crew getting upset about rooms they get and the company jumping on it to get rid of seniority.The company have always wanted to get rid of seniority and would use and reason to do that.

Its easy to have a go at someone when they decide something.So why don't you tell us what you reckon the union should have done?

[Bla_Bla]

dear VERONICA
in regards to ur comment: "
"Playing right into QF's hands: and you guys weren't able to see it when they delivered the EBA up to you. Take the money and run, and now the consequences are beginning to bite."
COULDNT AGREE MORE ! ITS JUST THE BEGINING!!!

and ROAMINGWOLF
the answer to ur question"
"So why don't you tell us what you reckon the union should have done?"
".
my answer to that is that they should have fought for all new crew to be employed under the same conditions as u r. AT ALL COSTS. they keep on telling us ( management and FAAA ) that we dont want to create the culture of us and them. what a joke. when i heard michael saying that right in fronnt of us i couldnt help myself but laugh. out loud in fact. he looked at me as if he wanted to shoot me. am sure he didnt like but so what ? we all new this was going to happen.and i tell u what, and i have posted that before... not sure if i will be around till the next EBA. coping with 130hrs of SH flying per mth easy as... but 120hrs of LH flying per mth? not sure how long i will last. and not only that. most of these kids are not here for the long run. thats y most of us them do not care about seniority and how high up ur room is. just ask around.
those senior ladies with 20, 25 and 30 + years with a beautiful career are nothing but a species sooon to be extinct.... gonne were the days that once u got a job as a FA u would hang on to it. gonne.
so as veronica said take the money and run.
it makes me laugh when is hear QAL crew questioning if what u have on ur roster is right and fair? r u serious ? didnt u vote for this ? how hypocritical!

and one last thing;
when QFLHFA says:
"Seriously, if the union wants to keep QCCA members I suggest they think of something very fast."

agree 110% as per my threads #21 #24 #31.
union officials should be taking a very close look at all this. otherwise like those senior ladies mentioned above, the FAAA will also be at the berge of extinction.

[twiggs]

my answer to that is that they should have fought for all new crew to be employed under the same conditions as u r. AT ALL COSTS.

You don't seem to understand that for the past 5 or so years, NO new long haul crew have been employed because they would have been employed on the same conditions as us.

The only way new crew would be employed on the same conditions as us is if we agreed to reduce our conditions to QCCA level.

Is this the "AT ALL COSTS" that you are talking about?

[roamingwolf]

my answer to that is that they should have fought for all new crew to be employed under the same conditions as u r. AT ALL COSTS.
Bla_Bla,mate thats easy to say but getting it is something else.
You say "at all costs" so what if the company did not offer any cabin crew jobs in Australia and gave them all to people from OS.
Jetstar have just done that and are bringing pilots in from OS and you reckon the company would not do any different with cabin crew?
veronica has said time and time that we should not have done it but the real problem is not what we should have done but how weshould have got anything different.
how do you know the company would budge,look at the probs the ginger beers are having.
Do you think the company would hire more crew on Aust l/h pay when they have mam crew flying s/h for a lot less and l/h bases in akl and bkk earning a lot less.
Dixon threw the dice a long time ago and we had bu$$#@ all choice because others had already accepted the deal.
I reckon the union should look at a deal for new crew paying less than we do for union rep.I don't reckon you guys should pay what we are cause you earn a lot less and thats fair.But I reckon if we are going to have a shot at stopping the company from steam rolling all of us then mate we have to work together.

But thinking about this what would you new guys and girls do if at the next eba the company said they wanted a 'C' pay which is lower than what 'B' pay is?
the trickis that the company tells you that if you don't go along with the deal they will start up bases all over the place and you guys will end up loosing a lot of your flying.

Would you fight it at all costs Bla_Bla and risk your job?

I can see the company chucking a hissy fit to the government over the price of fuel and how tough they are having it with sia and emirates .
Then the government let them bring cabin crew in on 457 visa's just like Jetstar are going to do with pilots.
If you don't think Dixon would try then you must believe in the tooth fairy too.

[Bla_Bla]

valid points guys. my suggestion is now deal with the consequences.
and to answer ur question:
"Would you fight it at all costs Bla_Bla and risk your job?"

I would. The company had it too easy if u ask me. and im sorry u guys sold yourselves very cheap. ( my opinion !!! ).
if i could turn back time i would have stayed as a MAM casual. unfortunatelly i cant go back. was making far more money back than. yeah no staff travel. and so what ? waisting my precious holiday time around airports, getting bumped off flights and begging ground staff for a seat ? sorry. not for me. much rather pay for a confimred seat. and for not having holiday pay. i always had enough saved up for it.
I would love to find out the percentage of QCCA that wil last till the next EBA.
Most of us are not here for the long run. thast y we dont take up expensive FAAA membership fees and we dont care whats gonna happen in 5 years time.
just ask out online what those 18, 19 and 20 yo are gonna be doing in 4 years time ?
u guys got what may have seen at the time a good deal. time will tell.
thats how i c it. some may say its a pessimistic view i say its realistic.
A crew member told me the other day: " they wont pay me enough so i will just lazy around i wont be here for ever. "
19yo fresh out of school. do u think he will pay expensive union fees to fight for something that he doesnt care ? do u think he cares if he is on the 11th or the 45th floor? all he cares is where hes gonna get drunk tonight.

[Pegasus747]

You see thats the problem. If they dont joing the union then the union will not fight to improve conditions. THey will certainly fight to keep the conditions and improve the conditions of members.

so if the QCCA crew decide not to be members then they will have no say whatsoever in negotiations as the company only deal with the FAAA. You can only vote for FAAA officials or run for office if you are a member.

So if you want to keep things the way they currently are at QCCA then dont join the FAAA. Its that simple.

And if you think that by not being members that somehow Qantas will negotiate with you seperately from the FAAA you are kidding yourself. It has never happened and will never happen.

My advice join the FAAA voice your concerns advice your elected officials what you want, attend meetings and be prepared to act when called upon to do so.

Otherwise just post your whinges on hear where it falls on the ears of those that can do nothing to help you except agree or disagree with you.

[Bla_Bla]

will say here once again for the last time.
i have always been pro union but i can not justify $625 per year. half of that i would certainly consider. its a money issue here. im getting paid far less than QAL crew so y should I b slashed with such a high membership fee? its a lot of food in my ever empty pantry.
sorry. and trust me. I AM NOT ALONE ON THAT ONE. JUST ASK OUT ONLINE AND FIND OUT YOURSELF.
FAAA should come up with a good deal for QCCA FA's otherwise they wont have any members . simple as that.
im not saying its eveybody but certainly the vast majority. and we know that numbers do count. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[veronica]

roaming, you know what I have suggested we do.

But now look to the future, the EBA has been signed. Let the %#*#fight begin now. People are inherently greedy. The QCCA people will fight. The honeymoon period where the world is all nice and fluffy, is over. The first few months of QCCA crew coming in was great. Now reality will start to bite. B Scales have and will make a difference, so don't bitch and moan when things like alphabetical lists and hotel rooms etc start to happen. QCCA crew will not lie down (nor should they), and we want what we have had for the last million years. The Company try to fracture us and they are succeeding. They love it.

Like I said previously, I told you so. This EBA was designed to fracture and cause disunity. They knew we would sign it because we're greedy. Now the chickens are coming home to roost. I agree with Bla.

These are only minor issues that are causing division. Can you imagine when something major comes up in the future. God, help us all.

Unity, yeah right. :{

[Bla_Bla]

it really is just the begning.
just the begning.
and when u say:
"They knew we would sign it because we're greedy."

how accurate!

[Pegasus747]

My health insurance is the same cost per annum and Kerry Stokes who is a multi millionaire.

If QCCA crew want lower fees however i think thats a good point to consider and they should raise it directly with the FAAA and put a case rather than on here

[roamingwolf]

posted by veronica:roaming, you know what I have suggested we do.
No veronica you never hve.You have said we should not have voted yes to the eba but you have never told us how we could have got anything better.Thats the difference,you complain all the time but you have not told us HOW we could have got the company to offer any more.

But thinking about it now I reckon we should have voted No because then:
Veronica and the rest of s/h would not be upset because they were out manouvered.
new crew like bla bla and other qcca could not complain because they would not have a job in l/h to complain about on any pay scale.
The company could have set up bases in Mumbai,singapore,HKG and anywhere else where the crew would be cheap as chips.
We could just keep flying and not listen to veronica and bla bla go on about how greedy we are.

but that wouldn't happen because Dixon would be bringing foreign crew in on 457 visa's and they would be complaining about how little they get.

I have to admit I'm laughing about the fact that some s/h crew voted to take our flying by agreeing to be cheaper.
Then they want to join l/h as qcca crew and are upset that they don't get as much as us.
face it guys you started it by accepting mam conditions and now the whole thing is like a snow ball and getting bigger by the day but you have to remember that you started it and you reckon we are greedy:8

listening to veronica and others is like listening to my kids in the car complaining and asking 'are we there yet' 'were bored' 'were not having any fun':ugh:

But I don't go along with Pegasus because kerry stokes and Peg do not do the same job but for different pay.
if the newbies do the same job but for less then they shouldn't have to pay the same union fees.
Thats fair and I have no problem with that but guys how many times do we have to tell you if we didn't vote for a b scale you guys wouldn't have jobs to complain about.

[jet.jackson]

Why respond to these goof ups?
They are not very bright,have no imagination,are bitter and are poorly educated

[Qantart]

Peg,

Other union memberships are based on income of the employee groups.... Therefore the FAAA has the ability to create a union membership fee based on pay scales......

As for QCCA crew approaching the FAAA to inform them of this, give me a break... The FAAA reps ALL read this forum and totally aware how crew feel about this.... Perhaps you and your other FAAA reps can raise it as a topic for discussion.

[mrpaxing]

next time i get a clause 11 i will ask the union to get me a QC. if the same thing happens to a QCCA union member i want him to get a fresh lawyer out of school as they would be a lot cheaper. what a stupid argument to have 2 sets of union fees. As has been said it is tax deductable so around 325.- is too much? thats less then 1% of your income? thats a glass of wine in the local pub per week. get real,get a life or leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sad:

[cartexchange]

you are so right Mr Paxing, if they want to pay less for fees then they also get less for representation.
After all i'm sure they have heard the saying " you get what you pay for"

[Qantart]

Cartexhange and Paxing,

Pull your head out of the airline environment for 5 min and broaden your understanding of the Australian Unions and you will QUICKLY discover that union fees based on pay scales are a common scheme within Australian Unions....

And furthermore, if you raise the argument of paying less for fees = less representation, then i will be just as childish as you and say if QCCA are paid less than QLH then QCCA should work less than QLH...:rolleyes:

[cartexchange]

QANTART
the door to go back to the uncertain world of MAM is open!

QCCA knew full well what they signed up for!

If the FAAA offer a discount to any other member a lot of people would simply resign from the FAAA.

Anyway here we go whinge whinge whinge, I now understand why the beehives at s/haul were so hard on you........

[Qantart]

Cartexchange

What astonishes me about people like you is that as soon as we are not of a similar view to your you go on the attack.... I am not MAM and if I were i would be quite happy to say i was. It's getting very boring with QLH crew always putting the blame on SH, MAM, AKL, BKK crew for everything.....

As for your comments about QLH crew resigning from FAAA if they offer discounts to QCCA, that would not suprise me the least.... Its all about take, take, take... God forbid if we had a better deal than QLH... Pathetic!!!!

[QFLHFA]

FACT- QCCA is a serpate company, just like any other Subsidiary in the Qantas Group. Why shouldn't a QCCA employees have a different pay rate like everyone else? Why is the FAAA representing QCCA with the same representative for QFA?

I don't understand how the FAAA can expect QCCA crew to pay money to a union that is supporting people that have better conditions than them. If they are contributing to the same union group, they should have the same working conditions!

Especially how QCCA are 'paying for' (after the free period) for a membership that is only looking after QFA.

What's the union done for QCCA? Got them jobs.. Hello QCCA was comming with or without the EBA vote.. All the Union did was secure the conditions so that QCCA couldn't get better rostering than QFA. Had it have been Qantas's way, QCCA would be doing all the money making sectors at a cheaper rate. Say what you like we all know its true. Qantas is business and cutting cost with employees is what they know best!

[cartexchange]

hey guys you have a really good option
instead of whining and crying.
Just quit...... I have already told you the door is open for you to go elsewhere.
If you dont like it just go..........
go work for tiger or somewhere else there are people lining up to replace you...
l

[UDP]

There seems to be a lot of unhappy ex MAMer now QCCAers. If you don't want to pay tax deductable union fees then don't. Its an insurance policy just like your car insurance or health insurance. If you are that poor and can't afford it then pray that the QF company management don't pull you in for a clause 11. Guaranteed you will lose any battle because you are stupid enough not to pay union fees, then you are stupid enough that you won't be able to fight your own battles.

I am not a Unionist by any means but you must have mental problems if you think that $10 a week (approx) is too much to pay.

[cartexchange]

hey guys you have a really good option
instead of whining and crying.
Just quit...... I have already told you the door is open for you to go elsewhere.
If you dont like it just go..........
go work for tiger or somewhere else there are people lining up to replace you...
l

[call button]

Are there any elected union officials that are QCCA FA's? Until the union has an even spread of QCCA and QFA elected officials, there is absolutely no point in QCCA crew joining the union. They (QCCA) would be much better off starting their own association, which operates purely for QCCA, and does not have a conflict of interest.

[Transition Layer]

Just a "techie" here (god I hate that term, but anyway...)

How about union membership as a % of your income. That's how it's done with AIPA. 0.75% from memory. Haven't heard anyone EVER complain about it, and let's face it, our salaries vary a lot more than yours from the bottom to the top (i.e. A330 S/O vs. B744 captain is a difference of over $250,000).

Just a thought...

[QFLHFA]

UPD if 10 dollars isnt too much to ask for a week then I guess you would agree for the union to increase your payment by 10 dollars a week to cover the cost for all QCCA crew members

[Pegasus747]

yes thats a great idea...QCCA crew that are unhappy with tthe FAAA shoud form their own union.....

Let me know when its up and running....

in the mean time the FAAA is happy to represent members to the best of its ability, anyone unhapppy is free to resign....


Bye bye

[stubby jumbo]

Strewth ! It didn't take long for the new QCCA guys to start complaining:confused:

All the "old timers" predicted this many many months ago re T&C's.

Agree with others here and the general message that we've been copping from management for years.

If you don't like it ......:mad::mad::mad::mad: ORF !

[Qantart]

Classy bunch!!!:rolleyes:

[blackguard]

While the small dogs bark the wagon still rolls on

[QFQCCA]

It never ceases to amaze me how all Qantas long haul crew believe the only solution for QCCA crew is to leave if we are unhappy. Qantas long haul is not your little play thing anymore it will belong to QCCA in the future therefore dont you think you should be playing like nice little 55 year old children.

As for the FAAA, firstly I cant afford to join at the moment and even if I wanted to I wont without QCCA representation. I just love how the FAAA puts out notices saying we are all one big happy family BUT all hell breaks loose and notices are flying out thick and fast as soon as something has a direct effect on Qantas long haul crew. I love it, so much for the family as long as QCCA stay in the back seat and keep our mouth shut we will be a big happy family right?

And no im not going anywhere pegasus, cartexchange and the rest of you. Just to see you all feel the pain in 5 years I intend to stay for at least another 5-6 years than I will move on.

[DEFCON4]

The life of a QF CC member is pretty damn good.
Its never dull and is always challenging.
The pay and conditions for the work done are agreeable
The attrition rate is low and there are always Q's a mile long when recruitment is opened.
The money saved by shopping overseas can add about $3k to a crew members disposable income.
The super scheme,the salary sacrificing,the credit union and the travel benefits are all part of the deal.
Most would be envious.
Still we have the bitching over trivia and nonsense.
The bar has been lowered..the pool of suitable applicants has shrunk.
So we have individuals who dont fully appreciate the lifestyle/job they now have.
The greed, the envy, the selfishness and the self obsession is breathtaking.
Before 1988 the job was poorly paid.
The floating of the $A and the introduction of the bid system made the job worthwhile.
Unforunately the Bid System has been responsible for destroying the culture of inclusion.
We now have subcultures of small self intersted groups who foolishly believe that they are more important than the whole.
Theses groups will destroy what is left
A short employment lifespan and no career path further eroded by the stupidity of the few.
It started with the merger of Australian and Qantas...two cultures colliding while management stood on the sidlines promoting the dysfunction.
Instead of thinking "me" start thinking "us" and maybe you will a chance of salvaging something of what is still an excellent way of making a living.
If the current mentality doesnt change the race to the bottom will be won by the vocal angry few and they will bring everyone down with them.
Management will watch the destruction with smug satisfaction

[cart_elevator]

Oh lord - stop whingeing QCCA

I had to move to London for two years - it was the only way I could keep my job here in Australia! I made that decision, am glad I did, and dont blame anyone for me saying 'yes' to do it.

Try living in London on QCCA wages because that's what we did!

It's all about personal decisions.

I do JNB back to back. That's my lot at the moment and I accept it, I make the most of it and have fun every time! Whenever I here QCCA crew complain about JNB's I point out that some SYD crew have been doing nothing but JNB's for 6 years.

We all have different conditions .. QAL, QCCA, QCCUK, BKK and AKL ... the one thing we all have in common is choice:

If it's that f**king terrible for you, then just leave!

It's a no-brainer :ugh:

But please dont think you can get away with doing less work onboard because your conditions are different to those who are working with you - others have tried it and have been sacked. You are paid [enter pay-scale here] to do a job. If you dont want to do it for that pay scale, then just leave.

Oh and I must add - the only whinging crew from QCCA that I have met are all ex-MAM.

The rest are lovely, and enjoy it. Funny, my friends from SH constantly tell me that MAM crew do nothing but whinge, so I guess leopards dont change their spots.

Life is a choice guys, dont like what you do for the money you get paid? ... do something else for someone else! Or get together and change it at the next EBA.

I know I will never get choice of holidays, never get a choice of days off ++ shrugs ++ but I still enjoy what I do, and do it damm well :cool:

[QFQCCA]

Whingeing little old QFQCCA me? London, 2 years you say, back to back Joburg you say, ex MAM you say. Maybe you should have a look at yourself. As for the whole not working onboard thing where did you get that from oh right your ex london base thats it.

[Pegasus747]

The one thing i can say is that all the whinging is anonymous and behind closed doors, if they whinge in front of me they better have something credible or constructive to say.

If its the sort of crap they sprout on here they will be heading home for a show cause meeting with their manager.

And if they are not an FAAA member it will be Bye Bye

onboard managers will weed out the crap and by the sounds of it there is not a lot but dont worry if you stick your head up you will be dealt with

Bye Bye

PS and if you are unhappy your manager is Nic O'Connor let him know how unhappy you are and copy in the faaa at [email protected]

You are all gutless whingers...if you think you have any case at all put it to your boss Nic O'Connor, who you prostituted yourselves to to get the job in the first place.

If you can earn more money and have skills that are undervalued take them to someone else cos we sure as hell dont need you

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"and if you are unhappy your manager is Nic O'Connor let him know how unhappy you are "

------------

I think they are peg as they were lined up outside his broom closet waiting to see him the other day.

Qantas, just one big unhappy family:ok:

With 80% of the A380 crew QCCA the sh1t fight that will be in inception it's going to be one hell of a spectacle to watch...........:E

[blackguard]

The new "Flying Circus"
Its going to be very entertaining
The newly promoted leading the newly pissed off.
Customer satisfaction...who cares?
Qantas management Dont

[Pegasus747]

Given what i know about many of the "newly promoted" , anyone with an axe to grind better leave it off the A/C with these guys....For the whingers and the lazy or dissaffected it will be a very short career and they will find themselves on Clause 11's and out the door in a nano second.

And...if as i hear they are not FAAA members it will be a process that will take a day or so to see them back on the dole queue where many of them belong.

Having had that little rant, my personal experience with the new crew that i have flown with is that they are a breath of fresh air and are doing a great job and laregely understand that their job security is underpinned by their competitive conditions. The conditions are far from the worst in the Industry and if MAM or Virgin is so much better i am sure that QCCA will start leaving.

The reality is, that when their was shrinkage in the AKL base to Air New Zealand, Qantas had to improve some of the Jetconnect conditions in their contract.

If a few QCCA crew start leaving then Qantas may review the arragements..for those unhappy on here perhaps you should be the martyrs for the others and leave.

In doing so you would increase the relative IQ of the establishment and the sourness you are feeling could be offset by all the free time you would have on the dole queue

[Qantart]

Much of the slagging off on this website always relates to QCCA crew. However you fail to highlight who the biggest whingers are....

On any flight speak to the QLH crew and all you get is moaning and complaining about, how bad the company is, how much the flying has changed, it's not fun anymore etc....... To date I have yet to work on a flight where QLH crew are not complaining....

We ALL bitch and moan online so stop making out like it's only QCCA.. It's part of the Cabin Crew culture and you all know it....... So if YOU don't like how about YOU leave!!!!!!!!!

My part said, i wont waste my breath anymore...

[roamingwolf]

I reckon it's funny how this agro is not on the qcca thread.Not in a funny ha ha sort of way but funny.

I reckon there are some here that are using this for politics.Leave it for the office guys & girls this was about accomodation not bitch sessions.
My part said, i wont waste my breath anymore...
Thanks qantart.

Back to our pubs and I hear the pilots are not happy about a move in honkers.

[Qantart]

Has the move in Hong Kong actually been confirmed.

I thought they would have published new accommodation in the bid books??? Or are they yet to decide on where they are putting us?

[veronica]

"The one thing i can say is that all the whinging is anonymous and behind closed doors, if they whinge in front of me they better have something credible or constructive to say."

Gee you're a tough man Peg! :hmm:

All I can say is that everything I predicted has come to fruition. The honeymoon period is over with the QCCA crew and they're pissed off (with every right to be). Bickering between the two groups can only intensify now as the issues become more important ones. The Company is sitting back watching this all unfold with smiles on their faces.

Well done guys! The slippery slide has begun. :{

[Bad Hat Harry]

The slippery slide is in your imagination.
There has been no conflict between anyone that I have seen.
Choice of flying is improving,super is improving,wages improving and I personally dont care about room allocation.
There is no drama anywhere...you are simply trying to manufacture some.
You are a sad twisted little sister.
The batteries are flat in one of your toys...go buy some new ones

[roamingwolf]

qantart,the union might know for sure but I think they are looking at new pubs and the one near the airport has been talked about by some pilots.
Its probably the company doing their usual trick of scare tactics to get something they want.

veronica,we all know you are one unhappy camper and everyone but you is greedy ra da ra da ra da ra da
but let it go and act like an adult.only children carry on saying 'I told you so'
there is no point in going on with this except if all you want to do is to close the thread.
give it a rest .

[skylarker]

Roaminwolf

You talk utter B@##$@&T.

Kiwi crew have never complained about rooms because of seniority.
They have been upset over work allocation positions because of the removal of the seniority system and the fact that QCCA regardless of start date are more senior in this respect as well. Again unfair.
QCCA like Jetconnect is not QF, but a wholly owned subsidury and therefor should fall into line behind the kiwis...plain and simple.

Again when the company wanted to pre allocate work positions for all QCCA/AKL and BKK crew this rang alarm bells in the FAAA bunker as this would also affect QFA crew as previously stated. Could you imagine if a QCCA and AKL crew member was allocated LP1 and R1P. Shock horror, what would Phyliss and Beth do who always worked those positions. They effectivly didn't have a say in their work positions either. This is why the FAAA took it up with the company. Now it has been changed to random after the QFA's have selected their positions, all is sweet now. That chapter is closed now they have the outcome they desired and to hell with everyone else.

But thinking about this what would you new guys and girls do if at the next eba the company said they wanted a 'C' pay which is lower than what 'B' pay is?
the trickis that the company tells you that if you don't go along with the deal they will start up bases all over the place and you guys will end up loosing a lot of your flying.


Hmmm good question.

What would the builders union, train drivers union, teachers union etc do if the Govt said they were bringing in O/S workers on lower pay and conditions and or starting offshore workers to work along side them on different conditions? Not bend over and take it, thats for sure. You can bet your bottom dollar they would fight it till the last man and woman. It's called having balls and fighting the fair fight for what is right. Get it?

[Shazz-zaam]

Don't you just love the new Qantas ads."The most experienced airline".

"Experience counts for nothing" should be the new ad.

Seniority, based on DOJ should apply when it comes to the allocation of hotel rooms and work positions.

It's really not fair on some of the older more experienced crew, like the Kiwi's, who have been around for several years, and have done the hard yards. Especially when they see someone straight out of training getting a better choice.

It is not only about experience, it's about RESPECT.

[skylarker]

Pegasus 747 says:

You see thats the problem. If they dont joing the union then the union will not fight to improve conditions. THey will certainly fight to keep the conditions and improve the conditions of members.
Haha, improve conditions, for who? And keep the conditions and improve conditions, for who?

So if the QCCA crew decide not to be members then they will have no say whatsoever in negotiations as the company only deal with the FAAA. You can only vote for FAAA officials or run for office if you are a member.
When did we last have a say in negotiations anyway? QF handed the current EBA to you and said take it or leave it.

[skylarker]

but that wouldn't happen because Dixon would be bringing foreign crew in on 457 visa's and they would be complaining about how little they get.


No he wouldn't and nor could he by law.
457's are a special visa granted for exceptional reason's ie: pilot shortage.
They are on a fixed term agreement as well.
No shortage of F/A wanna b's here in Oz

[roamingwolf]

skylarker,you didn't read my post did you?
I said what if the company said they want to start up a 'C' scale on even lowwr pay and conditions that the qcca or 'B' scale is?
I didn't say they wanted to bring in cheap crew from OS.I said they would open up bases OS if you didn't go along with the deal and then you would lose your flying.
You reckon all other crew would stand by you and fight?
i have been in that boat and a lot of crew went to work a well as the strike breakers from other parts of the company that wanted our jobs.If you think about it a lot of the last strikebreakers went over to work in the kiwi base.

I like your part where you say 'fight the fair fight',
mate there is no such thing i this game.
Get it?
No he wouldn't and nor could he by law.
457's are a special visa granted for exceptional reason's ie: pilot shortage.
They are on a fixed term agreement as well.
No shortage of F/A wanna b's here in Oz
You wanna bet mate.
there are stacks of pilots in Oz who have applications in for J* but do not get interviews and why?
cause the Company want cheap pilots they don't have to train.It keeps the pilots here out of the loop.
If you don't think they could get the gov to agree to a 457 visa deal then you have no idea pal.
How do you think they have kept sia out of the pacific.this company has so much clout with the federal gov it's not funny

[roamingwolf]

457's are a special visa granted for exceptional reason's ie: pilot shortage.
how about this for an exceptional reason pal.

The price of fuel!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

But like I said this thread is about our hotels not about any group feeling left out.
if you feel like that then get a group together and go to the union and run for the next election and make sure you have your own rep.

Shazz-zaam,well said mate could not agree more.

[skylarker]

You wanna make a betYep sure do. Put your money up sunshine.

I am no company stoog by a long shot and while I do agree there maybe pilots with applications in the system, there is obviously a huge shortage of suitably qualified techies able to jump into to front seat at short notice and this is the reason for the 457's and is only a short gap fix.

there are stacks of pilots in Oz who have applications in for J*

And to quote a techie on the J* thread.

If Cheapstar had good T and C they would have no problem getting Australian pilots.

And Fuel.... you serious :mad:

Sure, back to accommodation.

Whats news with the Bonaventure, re moving? Any updates on that front? Was anyone there last week when the fire broke out in the Brewery?

[cartexchange]

hey skylarker how's Midnight63 going?

[roamingwolf]

don't take the bait cart cause he and a few others just want the thread closed down.

I hear that the pilots pub in melbourne is also being looked at because they are looking at a 76 base in mexico.
I still reckon the company does this now and again just to stir the pot and ask for something they want in return for not changing hotels.

[GalleyHag]

Skylarker

Jet Star already employ foreign crew in Australia on 457 visa's and this is not because of lack of suitable applicants it comes down to cost or in jetstar's excemptional case language and cultural skills.

This is part of an article in the Sydney Morning Herald dated 26/5/08

Jetstar has also recently hired 20 foreign cabin crew on 457 visas and has government approval to hire up to 60 more.

[RedTBar]

Gee Skylarker seems to be missing the mark.

Geoff Dixon will be happy to know that fuel is not a critical issue at the moment and has not risen much over the last 12 months at all.All those quotes of GD's about rising fuel costs must have been misquoted!

Now it also seems as though Skylarker has lost his bet and done his dough about the 457 visa's.

Would you care to make any other forecasts there Skylarker?

[Pegasus747]

Qantas has just announced parking aircraft internationally and domestically, cancelling some routes entirely and a redundancy and leave burn program across the company.

Hold on to your collective hats this will be more significant than work position and hotel room. Some of us may not have to worry about that for much longer

Stay tuned

[roamingwolf]

posted byskylarker,
And Fuel.... you serious
it might take a while for the email to get to the land of the long white cloud but if you still want to make a bet about fuel costs hitting the company or 457 visa's go right ahead sunshine.
good one pal

[Ace Wasabe]

Japan has been losing money steadily for around 18 months.
Expect this to be one of the first international routes to go fom mainline.
Planning a holiday/business trip to Japan?
You will have the option of Jet* or transiting Singapore or KL.
Its still Australia's third biggest trading partner and QF will pull out after almost 45 years.

[surfside6]

Accelerated leave and VR.
Hope the VR is around October

[Qantart]

Peg

You think the fuel climate will result in crew cut backs? They have planned new schools for June. If this was the case, why would they be putting more crew through?

Sounds like the fuel costs, provide QF with a nice excuse for VR!!!

[Pegasus747]

I think there will be a slow down of QCCA recruitment and perhaps some accellerated leave burn but unlikely to have VR in long haul...perhaps short haul

[roamingwolf]

I reckon Dixon must have read the post by skylarker telling us theres no probs with fuel.
Wednesday May 28, 04:52 PM
Qantas cuts jobs, services due to fuel costs

Qantas says hundreds of jobs will go because of rising fuel prices.

The airline says fuel costs are likely to rise by more than $2 billion over the next year to about 35 per cent of the company's total expenditure.

Qantas chief Geoff Dixon says the exact number of jobs to go has not yet been decided.

"We'd hope to be in the low hundreds," he said.

"We certainly don't expect thousands or anything.

"We're going to try and mitigate it against against job losses by accelerated leave program and some other ideas we have."

Qantas says it is failing to bridge the widening cost gap, despite fuel surcharges, fare increases, a fuel hedging strategy and a recruitment freeze.

It will also make cuts to flight routes and ground aircraft due to to the spiralling fuel costs.

It has now decided to cut capacity on its routes by 5 per cent, the equivalent of grounding six aircraft.

It will retire, ground and cancel the delivery of aircraft to achieve that.

Qantas will abandon the Gold Coast to Sydney and Uluru (Ayers Rock) to Melbourne routes and Jetstar will exit a number of routes and reduce services on others.

Changes to international routes will be finalised within the week.

Ratings agency Standard and Poor's says it has affirmed the credit rating of Qantas, but has revised the outlook to negative.

It says the change reflects the pressure on the airline's cash flow due to high fuel prices and the likelihood costs will remain high for an extended period.
qantart,we all know that GD would use the changing of the tide to come out with more doom and gloom but the cost of fuel is bad enough when you fill up the kombi but I reckon Dixon must be having a stroke looking at how much a 747 takes.
What else is going to be fun to watch is the new flying croisant and if they can't fill them up then watch out.

[skylarker]

Quote:
457's are a special visa granted for exceptional reason's ie: pilot shortage.
how about this for an exceptional reason pal.

The price of fuel!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Some ppl love to change their tune and twist the facts to suit their poultry argument.
Of course fuel has a bearing on any transport company, I never said it didn't, but when RW says the J* visa issue is about the cost of fuel he is
dreaming. Thats what my reply was about and not about cutting services etc.
Now if it is about fuel, QF will put a halt to recruitment and cut services as announced today. Not hire more pilots.

[Southside747]

If you lot think the news just released is bad, wait till the bloodbath that is the international review is complete in the next week. If you think the domestics are suffering a hit, don't celebrate just yet. Our punch is still being loaded.

My mail is that 744's will go as the 380 arrives in a 1 for 1 replacement (ie. 6 by early next year). Potentially more 767's to cease international ops (ie. Japan, and a reduction in HNL). South America to be put on hold indefinately, and SFO and FRA under review, with SFO likely to reduce the amount of weekly services back to 3.

So where does that leave longhaul crew? QCCA will be safe with the 380. Unlikely they will be parked. Where and when will the 787's arrive?

As to the current bickering, there are many of us who saw it coming before the last EBA was signed off. What did you all honestly think would happen? Sadly, it is only get to get worse as we get more divided. As time goes on, it is going to get much worse, nothing we can do to change that.

As for the fees, my belief is that it should be a percentage of your salary (not a flat rate for all). Current Longhaul crew may have to pay a little more, QCCA crew a little less. Anything different is going to result in further division. I personally would rather pay a little more in order to hopefully keep us better unified, as the cost of the alternative will be much more than the additional fees. Division is going to cost a lot more that a few measly dollars per annum.

The next week, then the next 12 months will be very interesting for Longhaul crew.

Brace Brace Brace.

[RedTBar]

Skylarker, I think it is you who is trying to twist & distort previous posts.RW said that fuel could be used as an excuse for action by the company to which you replied 'You serious'
Well it looks like Geoff Dixon is certainly taking it seriously.

You also said that they would never use 457's and that they weren't even legalNo he wouldn't and nor could he by law.
457's are a special visa granted for exceptional reason's ie: pilot shortage.
They are on a fixed term agreement as well.
No shortage of F/A wanna b's here in Oz
If I were you I'd quit while your this far behind as any more will be embarrassing.

Southside747,Good call.
I think your closer to the money than we think.This has the potential to become very ugly.

[Qantart]

Quick question,

Any ideas when our rosters are due out?

[argus.moon]

Usually Friday Night

[cartexchange]

they should close the AKL base.

[argus.moon]

The AKL Base will eventually close itself...due to lack of interest....by everybody

[Qantart]

Just a question

With the start up of QCCA would it not be in the best interest of QF to minimise recruitment in AKL and eventually phase the base out, as seen with the BKK crew? Or is that simply wishful thinking...

[argus.moon]

Everything and anything is possible.
The advent of QCCA opens up an enormous range of possibilities and scenarios

[Bla_Bla]

JETSTAR ON VAPOUR TRAIL FOR STAFF

Jetstar is turning japanese ever so slightly.
Jetstar has hired 20 japanese flight attendants on controversial skilled visas to look after passengers on Japan routes.
The Herald Sun believes it is the first time an Australian carrier has imported cabin crew.
Jetstar spokesman Simon westaway said yesterday that the foreigners were needed, despite the airline $7000 bonuses to Australian staff who spoke fluent japanese.
" we operate 17 flights a week between Australia and Japan, but we didn't have the coverage with existing staff" he said.
" Its about searching for a skill set. We need japanese speakers on our japan services".
The japanese FA's came to Australia on training visas, but have now been approved to stay for up to 4 years under the so called 457 temporary skilled migration program.

wow: what a joke hey ?
they have a shortage of australian japanese language speakers ? i dont think so. and WOW a $ 7000 bonus. what difference does that make when u get paid peanuts for ur salary. $7000 + peanuts= living bellow the poverty line.
not sure if u guys know but new Jetstar FA's are now employed by a company called TEAM JETSTAR> they have Jet* domestic ( the initial company with an EBA ) , than they created Jet* international ( under an AWA ) and now "team Jet* " > which is their version of QCCA.
those guys can fly on any route at any giving time. domestic or international.
my mate that flies out of CNS domestic base had one of "those" new japanese crew on a BNE rtn. r u serious? thought they were needed for the japan routes. wonder if the union is keeping a close eye on that matter.
the so called 457 visa no longer applies to pilot shortage. scary really.

[Bla_Bla]

in regards to ur comments:
"As to the current bickering, there are many of us who saw it coming before the last EBA was signed off. What did you all honestly think would happen? Sadly, it is only get to get worse as we get more divided. As time goes on, it is going to get much worse, nothing we can do to change that.

As for the fees, my belief is that it should be a percentage of your salary (not a flat rate for all). Current Longhaul crew may have to pay a little more, QCCA crew a little less. Anything different is going to result in further division. I personally would rather pay a little more in order to hopefully keep us better unified, as the cost of the alternative will be much more than the additional fees. Division is going to cost a lot more that a few measly dollars per annum."

OMG ! couldnt agree more. as per many of my previous threads thats the whole reason i started putting messages out here. i have always been pro union, but am not prepared to pay the current FAAA fees, specially since we dont have any QCCA reps there and we dont get paid the same. that aside, i would love the union to come up with a solution to this. and again, trust me, they will not have any QCCA members. and im assure you all that im not alone on that one!
its not only a matter of the $$$, a lot of the newbies are not here for the long run. just ask out online. they will tell u. they dont care cause the majority of them will not be here in 4-5 years time, so this whole discussion about the next EBA they are not interested at all. they will all be drunk at a full moon party somewhere in thailand.
the minority, crew in their 30's + ( incl. ex ansett, ex mammers, people with financial commitments,plus a few of the young ones with their heads screwed on ) they do care to a cretain degree.

[roamingwolf]

Bla_Bla.mate like I said before I go along with what your saying.I reckon if your doing the same job as us but for less dollars and more hours and no roster I don't see how the union should think you guys should pay the same as we do.
if the union can see this down the line about 10 years or more they should want you guys to join.The company loves all this split and divide cr@$ and if we want a chance to handle them then we need to be one group not 2.

This 457 visa con they are pulling is just the start and they come up with something new all the time.I don't care who is in canberra they all have beers and work out how to scratch each others back.This latest pr spin by Dixon will be to get rid of as many original crew as they can and replace them with qcca crew.I was wondering how long before they made a move and they didn't take long.

I hope they don't use this and give Frankfurt flights the chop.I reckon SFO is looking shaky but with v Australia starting up you wouldn't want to bet on it.

[qfcabin]

Roaming, I think that was always the intention..to reduce the long haul and increase the qcca over the life of this eba...and then sit back and watch the ructions at the end of the 5 years..

[Pegasus747]

There have been a number of crew sacked in recent years and disciplined by the company. the fAAA has defended its members and not one flight attendant that was sacked by qantas and represented by the fAAA didnt get their job back if they wanted it.

each of these cases costs about the same to run about 30-40K.

The fees are $624pa or about $12 a week before tax and the cost of a couple of cappucinos after tax.

The FAAA is a small boutique union giving very personal representation and thats expensive. The Short Haul FAAA is roundly bagged by its members for being remote and not returning calls. Dont quote me just talk to SH members, many of whom ring the international Division and ask to join there.

Large unions with significant more members are represented by the same number of staff as the FAAA in many cases but with vastly reduced access to officials and staff. The fees although less are more in agrregate to pay the services.

If the FAAA lowered its fees it would have to reduce staff and services. The FAAA now has to pay Qantas to release officials and that is very expensive as are having qualified lawyers on the staff who are availablee 5 days a week to the members.

Frankly if crew cant afford the fees then its just too bad . I dont want reduced representation. And i think 12 a week is not too much for what we get.

Naturally the FAAA wants QCCA crew to join the FAAA but they will not allow a dilution of services or cause other members to resign and expect the same fee reduction.

Larger unions with 000's of members can offer what is best suited to their circumstances. The FAAA elections have just taken place and representation is now set for the next four years.

There are a number of QCCA crew that have contacted the FAAA and wish to work as delegates and workplace advocates and of course that will be encouraged.

Further two very senior FAAA officials will be working on the A380 on exactly the same conditions as QCCA crew. So any argument that QCCA are not represented must be seen within that context.

[Southside747]

Fine to keep your stance, the division will just grow. Just about every other union has fees as a percentage of income. There are a lot of QCCAer's I have dealt with who have expressed this opinion, and the simple fact is they will feel ripped off and will not join, rightly or wrongly.

I don't want to have to pay extra, but what is the cost of a divided and fragmented group, even more so than what it is?

My other mail is New York is also on the radar with the fuel review. Add this to SFO, FRA and the end possibly of Japan, and there will be surplus QF Long Haul crew. All the QCCA crew will be absorbed by the 380. They are safe. The percentage of existing Long Haul crew will diminish by the month shortly.

Division is playing right into the companies hand. Why do you think they offered us what we should have seen as a fantastic EBA deal?

[Pegasus747]

The plan is a simple one..the company was in the process of slowly closing the LongHaul Division. Qcca has stopped that.

Any QCCA crew that feel like they have been cheated should leave RIGHT NOW

[roamingwolf]

I've just heard that dixon has said he reckons he will go by next march.
Sounds lke a good idea for a party to me.

Pegasus, good to see you haven't changed.

[mrpaxing]

i believe GD is leaving after the olympics. time will tell.:ok:
as for the ongoing debate of union fees. when i was a junior and got sh** trips back to back i earned a lot less money then the majority of collegues. i still had to pay the same fees. no perfect solution:{

[Pegasus747]

hey i am sorry if i am a bit testy.... its just impossible to please everyone and sometimes i think i should give pprune a break

i might depart for a month and give you all a break :)

soz

[Southside747]

Don't think that when GD goes everything will change overnight and the new CEO will rush in and say how sorry he (she) is to the Longhaul crew for all past injustices, here is more money and better conditions, whatever you ask for. Just like everyone thought the new government would a year ago.

It could potentially be worse than GD if it the Irish one.

As for the fees, well times change, what happened in the past is not always going to work into the future. We need to get everyone on board and as it currently stands, we will not get many. Your nasty remarks to them Peg is only going to alienate the union further in their eyes.

On the pathetic wage they are earning, they deserve not to have to pay the same amount as we do on nearly double their amount. How many other unions do the same? Even the tech crew have a percentage meaning Captains pay more than F/O's and so on. I know it is hard for us to swallow this, but if they don't all join we are basically all screwed very soon.

Then the 787 drama will unfold in about 3 years after the oil crisis is over. We need to all be together for that one if what I believe is true comes to fruition.

[Qantart]

True,

Can't please everyone, but it saddens me that even the suggestion of QCCA crew paying a little less in Union fees than QLH crew creates so much resistance from QLH crew and outrage and nasty comments.

Can't help but think what would happen if the two groups had to come together and agree on changes to another area of conditions. Just goes to show, that the idea of QCCA and QLH crew uniting probably will not happen. If anything as has been said, the gap will grow....

I'll join Peg and take a break from the topic as well. Sad really!!!!

[roamingwolf]

It doesn't help any of us to argue here but I reckon the company doesn't have any probs changing to help themselves so we should do the same.
The job is always the same but the conditions are not.If we told crew 20 years ago what would happen theyd laugh at us.
The company always wants to put up walls and split us and if we don't come up with new ideas they win again.
I'll go along with any reasonable ideas just to stick it to the company and not let them win cause one of the things that p!$$*$ them off is seeing us having a ball and enjoying the job and life.

[Bla_Bla]

couldnt agree more with ya...
i think the problem here is that we are on a road with no turns. its a str8 forward walk and its gonna be all down hill........
hope life as a pilot is better for ya.

[argus.moon]

Doom and Gloom have been predicted for the last thirty years.
The Sky Still hasnt fallen.
There has always been divisions.
The bid system was introduced in 1988 because there were two Associations...one for male CC and one for female CC.
The female association back doored the bid system for the company.
Before that there was the SP dispute in 1981.
Domestics/Longhaul...then the bases.....and now QAL and QCCA.
Stil you have 1000s turn up for interviews to fly.
It will laways be about lifestyle...the rest is secondary.
CC are resourceful....a way around circumstances is always found.