5th seat in a single

[Squeegee Longtail]

Anyone recommend the best single to go for with 3 adults and two (very) little ones (1 & 3 yrs old)?
I want to stay away from 6 seaters and twins due to costs.
350-400 nm typical so reasonably quick, IFR capable.
I appreciate the 5th seat is not for adults.
Nothing too flash, only have 100K euro to play with.

[SNS3Guppy]

You're really left with six seat options..the rear seats are often narrow enough that they're best suited for children, anyway. For the performance, trying to squeeze a lot of people into a small airplane can be a losing proposition.

A Cessna 206 or 210, or a Cherokee 6 might fit your bill nicely if you can find one in your price range.

[foxmoth]

Try the TB10/20 nice aircraft and ideal I would say for 3 + 2. TB10 seems about your price range http://www.avbuyer.com/AircraftSales/AircraftResults.asp
(select Socata for manufacturer)
:ok:

[Squeegee Longtail]

Thanks Foxmoth, I understand the TB10 is 120 knots cruise? the TB20 (early models) around 140-150? Is the extra cost (purchase & operating ) worth the extra speed? any other considerations between these two (I have only flown TB9)? Is a 5th seatbelt option available?

[Stampe]

Wassmer Baladou,some Jodel D140 (its a tailwheel),either only if fitted with fifth seat belt.Both comfortably within your price range.VBR Stampe

[homeguard]

The TB10 has the fifth seat as standard. TAS 118kts but tanks holding in excess of 200ltrs which gives the aeroplane a good range.

Subject to your bladder, range can be more important than speed. The more refueling stops then the more time lost. Landing to re-fuel can be extremely time consuming. Sometimes an enroute divertion for fuel will be owing to no fuel at the destination, a real bore.

You could possiby find a good Cessna 206 which has six seats (4 + 2), has excellent range, thirsty but fast at circa 150 kts. The Cherokee 6 300 previously mentioned is a superb carrier with a very good range but is thirsty at only 130kts.

Both the Cessna 206 and the Cherokee 6 have good short field performance which may be an important consideration giving access to local strips.

For 100 euros you have a reasonable choice.

[foxmoth]

And you could of course go for:-
http://www.airshows.org.uk/2006/airshows/abingdon/photographs/foxmoth_1.jpg
Though I will admit it falls a little short on the IFR capability!:}

[Chilli Monster]

Have operated a TB20 with 2 adults up front and two female adults plus female child (8 years old) in the back. Comfortable enough on a 2 hour flight between the UK and Paris. The limitation however is you can't exceed 509lbs on the rear seat (shouldn't be a problem with the scenario you post)

If you can find one within budget I would really consider the 20 over the 10 if you're going to be lifting 5 people. The extra 70HP makes all the difference in performance, plus the extra speed means they're not seated for as long.

As for Homeguards figures for the TB10 - compare that with 336 litres and 145Kts TAS. I get a fuel burn of 50l/hr @ 2500-3000ft, reducing to 43l/hr @FL110. Get a 20 and you will never look back (but after a while you do hanker after a 21 :\ ).

[Justiciar]

Siai Marchetti 206 has 5 seats. It is an Arrow equivalent - I know of one which might be for sale at around £40k! It has tip tanks which give it around 6 hours endurance.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Thanks for the input so far, what about C182 (N/P or later). Can these take a 5th seat?

[BartV]

Go for a Beechcraft F33A, these are very nice planes and you have a fifth seat option. Stay withing W&B and get one with a Yaw Dampener Kit.

[foxmoth]

save some cash and get the 1 year old on someones knee!!

Great for a year, unfortunately kids have a habit of getting older and then will still need that extra seat.:ugh:

[hobbit1983]

How about a Maule? The M-7-235 has five seats, can be outfitted with IFR kit, is reasonably quick, and can be built with either a nose or a tailwheel depending on your preference.

The new list price starts at around 120,000 euros, so you could probably pick up a decent second hand model for around 100,000 I'd guess.

http://www.mauleairinc.com/Our_Planes_New/m_7_235_b_c/index.htm

[BartV]

hobbit, any idea why ? Maule is a badly constructed plane with a cheap airframe and an oversized engine.

When you are flying a Maule you must understand you act as a 'test' pilot.

[hobbit1983]

I think there are a few Maule pilots out there who will disagree with you! Care to back that up? I've never come across anything to suggest so.

Certainly the many bush pilots in the US who fly them seem to be happy with them.

[Sam Rutherford]

Hey, who's that dissin' ma Maule?!:=

I have an MX7 180B, land on a sixpence, cruise 120kts TAS. IFR, over 7 hours to fumes (9.5gph, 73 gals useable). I can take the family (parents, 2 kids), luggage and full fuel. In that configuration I'm getting to aft limits of cofg but still have way to play on MAUW. The 235 comes with 5 seats.

If you're not on for the tailwheel option, then get the tricycle.

Do some internet research, people are pretty happy with their Maules (and you get a LOT for your dollar/euro).

Even better, buy now in the US (dollar on the floor), fly it back (which I'm doing with mine next week) and still save a load of money. Not happy (unlikely but possible), sell it in Europe for a profit!

Sam.:):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[Squeegee Longtail]

Thanks for the Maule idea. On paper it is a great option, however it just doesn't LOOK right. My other half just said "no way I'm getting in that". That's the opinion of an aviationally ignorant passenger, but it says something.
For me planes (and boats) have to look right as they are emotionally charged purchases, and the Maule is UGLY - even more so in tricycle config.
I know that shouldn't figure in my choice, but it does!

Sorry for the offence to Maule owners, beauty is in the eye of the bill payer.

[Sam Rutherford]

Beauty could be expensive! ;)

You should still look at buying in the US and flying the aircraft back (estimate USD10K for the flight back, add that to the price and make your comparison). Check, but I believe you can still import via Denmark at 0% vat.

N register also means FAA IR if you want to take that option later.

Sam.

[hobbit1983]

I didn't think they looked THAT bad..!

http://www.mauleairinc.com/Our_Planes_New/images/M-7-235/Large/Scheme%202%20M-7-235B%203.jpg

I agree with you on the tri gear option though - urgh.

[BartV]

Do some internet research,

You mean NTSB ? Loads of Maule reports over there.

Sorry but your 9.5gph is what ? at 50% power ? Doing 80KTAS ? Tell me what your fuel burn is with that lousy 120KTAS ? 15gph ?

I flew a Maule once, this is nothing for Europe, Africa maybe. The poster asked for reasonably quick, IFR, 5 seater, that is not the Maule.

About the dollar, that is for every plane, prices are dropping DAILY... sellers are screaming for a deal, you can get 30-40% off asking price these days.

sell it in Europe for a profit!

You are joking, there is no market for a Maule in Europe, nobody buys that over here, Maules stay on the market for LONG!!!!!

[Wessex Boy]

I believe a Yak 18T can squeeze 3 little ones across the back?
Good for short-field as well

The seats are a bit hard, but you can just flip it inverted to relieve any numbness:ok:

[hobbit1983]

Without wanting to commit thread drift;


Quote:
Do some internet research,
You mean NTSB ? Loads of Maule reports over there.

There's lots of Piper, Supercub, Cessna reports as well. Should we assume they're badly built too?

I flew a Maule once, this is nothing for Europe, Africa maybe. The poster asked for reasonably quick, IFR, 5 seater, that is not the Maule

If you flew a Maule once only, then surely you're not best placed to pass judgement on it? If an owner of such an aircraft is ready to sing it's praises, I would count that more valuable advice.

Quote:
sell it in Europe for a profit!
You are joking, there is no market for a Maule in Europe, nobody buys that over here, Maules stay on the market for LONG!!!!!

There are, according to G-INFO, 31 Maules currently on the UK register. There's only 38 Mooneys and 30 Barons too, but I don't think it could be said that there's a lack of a market for those types in Europe either.

Now back to the original question! ;)

What about a Cherokee Six? You said you wanted to stay away from 6-seaters due cost, but prehaps a fixed-gear, non-turbo version would compete in operating/purchase costs with something like a Cessna 210 etc.

[172driver]

Also depends a bit on how long you intend to keep the plane. Little Ones don't stay little for long !

Other than that, I'd probably go down the C206/210 route. Easier to load than a Cherokee 6 (might be a factor convincing management ;) ), good views and great all-round a/c.

[SNS3Guppy]

Maule is a badly constructed plane with a cheap airframe and an oversized engine.

When you are flying a Maule you must understand you act as a 'test' pilot.


The Maule is a very well built aircraft, and a very proven one, too. Nothing experimental about it. They're strong, they work well in rough conditions, are excellent short field machines.

The airframe is seldom disparaged by those who know what they're talking about, and well respected by those who who do.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Can anyone offer operating cost comparisons between a TB20 and C206 and C210? Also any info on a C182 carrying a 5th seat?
Enough on the Maule please! I am sure those who love 'em, love em', and those who don't, don't.

[172driver]

I fly the 182 quite a bit. While it's a great a/c, frankly I don't think it is suitable for the mission profile you propose. The baggage area is not much larger than on a 172 and the 5th seat would take up half of that. Touring with 5 in a 182? Not really an option.

[Sam Rutherford]

9.5 gph, at 7000', 120 kts TAS.

Okay, it's not 140, or 180 - but then it doesn't cost the same to buy something that quick (with 4-5 seats) either.

It is fantastic in Africa or Alaska, it is also good in Europe etc.

Ask about, they have a great reputation (for their cost) - apples to apples, please! Mine's a 1995, 1700h on the tach, panel mount gps, dual navcom, constant speed prop, cost was comfortably under USD60K.

For our original poster, for Eur100K he gets, in all but name, a new airframe. Or he spends 80K on aircraft, plus his FAA IR, plus all the electronics he can get in there, plus costs of flying it back, plus taking the wife for a 5* week to the Bahamas to convince her that it doesn't look so bad.

Sam.

PS at the risk of going 'subjective', I also like how she looks!;)

[PlasticPilot]

Go for a PA32 Saratoga / Lance (great range if you don't load all the PAX), a Bonanza F33A (very nice to fly, lower autonomy, 5th seat as an option), or a C210... or if you can afford it, a P210, then you'll get better IFR capability.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Any owners of aforementioned types have any operating cost spreadsheets to pm me? All info greatly appreciated. looking at private G-reg or N-reg, 200 hrs pa.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Apparently Robin DR 400/180 or DR 500 can have a 5th seat option - any views on these?

[172driver]

Flown them, but not much. From memory (been a while) beautiful a/c to fly, great vis (important for the little pax) and rather spacious. Could work for you.

[IO540]

I second the TB20 but I don't think all have 5 seats officially. Mine is a 2002 TB20GT and there are just 2 seat belts in the back.

Reportedly some U.S. owners have removed the middle seat belt because it saves on insurance premiums (fewer passenger seats).

Otherwise, the TB20 is a great plane, the best of the lot of you want something "nice" and very capable.

However, for long legs (I don't mean womens' legs) you need to consider the creature comfort. A 5-seater will have no room to move about if you have 5 crammed in there. I fly many 5+ hour legs with my girlfriend and she often likes to climb in the back seat and have a sleep, or make some food, or just have a stretch. Or use the "loo" (the plastic bottle thingy) with some dignity. Anyway, with survival gear (a raft, a bag with some stuff like a GPS and a radio/EPIRB) that's one seat gone.

One ends up with a much bigger and much more expensive to operate plane...

Re operating cost, this depends much on age. An aluminium airframe should cost next to nothing for the first 15 years or so, assuming it has not been maintained by apes (quite an assumption especially if you take it to big JAR/EASA maint companies). So it's a tradeoff between a new/newish plane and low maint costs, and an old one with less spent up front but lots and lots spent regularly afterwards.

Euro 100k might buy a right old heap. Any IFR 4/5 seater for Euro 100k is going to be in a state. A good TB20 is 2x that.

[Chilli Monster]

Euro 100k might buy a right old heap. Any IFR 4/5 seater for Euro 100k is going to be in a state. A good TB20 is 2x that.

I would dispute that, especially with fuel prices going the way they are market values are dropping.

I paid considerably less than Euro 200K for my TB20 - it's not a GT variant, but it's no heap either as a few people here will know. I know of a very nice example for sale in the UK for Euro 134K at current exchange rates - and that's a '98 model.

[IO540]

I agree CM and in fact once flew in yours but you got that one cheap because the last-1 owner was most keen to sell. That plane was priced about 30% below MV, clearly for an immediate sale.

Euro 100k is a bit tight especially allowing for some work needing to be done.