Those considering Emirates

[Alconguin Crusader]

I am writing this explaining all the aspects of Emirates that you will not hear from the company for those of you considering Emirates as a pilot. First I will tell you about Emirates and what they do and don’t do then I will tell you about Dubai that you might not be aware of.
I joined Emirates in the neighborhood of a year ago and did not do my homework about the airline or the city like I should have and now I regret it big time. There, that is my disclosure. I was a pilot at a world class carrier that had some financial trouble so I decided to leave. Emirates seemed like a good opportunity at the time and in many regards it is but not if you come from a top-tier airline.
Emirates does not have many things that a typical airline would have. We have no vacation pay, no sick pay, no trip credit, no duty credit, no minimum day, and no pension. Unions are outlawed and the government agency that is supposed to monitor the airline is non-existent. In other words whatever the management wants the airline gets, the pilots be dammed. We have a bidding system on paper but it does not work very well. We are not allowed to transfer aircraft and of course there is only one crew base which is Dubai.
We as pilots get 42 days vacation a year. That is good especially where I come from. The problem is trying to use the vacation when you want it. For two summers now I have not received any summer leave and we all know how hot Dubai gets in the summer. Leave is suppose to be rotated so it would make sense if you did not get summer leave this year you should get it next summer. Fat chance.
Also you can only use three weeks vacation in a row. That is not so bad but if you only use 7 days to 10 days vacation in a month you still work a full flying month and you just burned 7-10 days vacation from you bank. 42 days goes fast that way.
There is no sick pay. You call in sick for a trip and not only do you not get paid for it they can schedule you another trip even on your days off. If you call in sick for a four day trip and you are better after two days you can count on having two days of garbage as a pay back. Crew scheduling remembers everything and writes it all down on your personal page.
There is no duty regs or trip credit. This is not so much a problem at Emirates because they fly efficient patterns. But on the rare occasion where you are laying over for three days in TPI, ACC, KUL, YYZ, or SIN you are not getting paid for it. You only get paid for what you fly and for the most part that is the only way to get paid. We don’t get paid for our own simulator which is twice a year but we do get deadhead pay which we hardly ever do.
If we do a gulf sector that is very short we only get what we fly. So a DOH or BAH trip is only worth 1:50. Most airlines have a 4 –5 hour minimum day but not at Emirates. I must admit most of the flying goes over the 5 hour flying day but now with the wonderful bidding system you can count on a lot more short turns. More on that latter.
We have a retirement program here but it is not very good. My account has not built up very much but you hear of pilots flying here for 10 years and only having $125,000 or so. A close personal friend of mine has been here 6 years and has $67,000. I know the management wanna bees will come out and say there is much bigger but it is not anything what a proper pension should be. After you cash it in you will be lucky to put a down payment on a house. We need more for retirement but of course management is not listening to the pilots but then again they never listen to us.
Emirates is in desperate need of a union. As I mentioned earlier management just does not listen to the pilots. They do whatever they want whenever they want. We have absolutely no say. It is very frustrating to say the least. I know some pilots will say that they are quite happy not having a union here but they are the ones that have probably jumped the seniority list at some point in their career or have been the beneficiary of some management decision.
There is no FAA or CAA here and you can tell from the onset. When we set the brakes after a pattern we are off duty. They did this (because they can) so they can get some long turn arounds in under the duty limit. I understand we use to get 30 mins after brakes set but they did away with this provision for their benefit and so they could do a lot more of very long turn arounds with just two pilots.
We fly a lot of night flying. Not just at night but in the middle of the night. A lot of our patterns leave at 2am and fly all night and get back to Dubai at 6 in the morning a day later. That just kills me. Some pilots adjust but not me. This is something that I did not know and did not come across in my limited research. My bad big time!
Also we fly some long legs with only two pilots in the middle of the night. We go to Beijing and Seoul and leave with two pilots at 2am and fly across the Himalayas. That is just not safe. Try staying awake. It is painful most times and probably has taken years if not decades off my life. No one outside the airline knows this but there is a lot of single pilot flying going on here. One pilot sleeps while the other pilot tries and stays awake and then the roles are reversed. One pilot manning the ship at a time.
The management in their infinite wisdom just messed with the bidding system again. They now state that we can only have 14 days off a month. Why? Who knows the real reason but I am sure jealousy is high up on the list. Also they don’t like commuters and they don’t like for the pilots to have too much time off. They rather we all be tired and crabby so we will leave the airline or be dead. This has screwed up a lot of pilots way of life.
The main determent here is the Direct Entry Captain program. I know Emirates had it before I joined but I did not realize how much it hurts an airline. When it comes to upgrade they can easily say we are going to hire DECs and you just have to wait. A union would come in handy here to stop this program but that will never happen. Pilots on the Airbus are having to wait over a year and a half for their upgrade because some narrow body captain who never has flown outside Europe or the States is coming in and upgrading before them. There are no good airlines in the world that don’t respect seniority. Emirates does not respect seniority. It is a complete slap in the face to the hard working first officers of this airline what the company is doing to us.

Dubai is pretty much a nightmare to get anything done in. The traffic is obscene and bottlenecks everyday in most parts of the city. Try and get something done and it takes you four times as long to get there as it should.
Then you have the idiot drivers. I will leave the nationalities aside but you just can’t believe some of the stunts they pull. You just pray you don’t come across any of them on your daily travels.
God forbid if you get into an accident with any of them. It is your word against theirs and the cops speak Arabic. Everything written is in Arabic and you have no idea what is going on. I hope it does not happen to anyone here but it does everyday and it sucks.
There is no customer service to speak of. Try and return some item that you don’t want or is the wrong size. It can be done but is often an Act of God.
Every store has a security guard posted all through the store. Sometimes they even follow you. At least they do to me, must be because I look suspicious but others have said the same thing. It makes you feel all warm and fuzzy all over.
Then there is the runaway inflation in Dubai. Officially it is listed at 12% a year but everyone knows that is a farce. Many items are not included in the official listings and super markets are almost at the point of listing their items in pencil so they can change the prices everyday. Don’t get me wrong it is not Zimbabwe yet but it very frustrating at the same time. Quality of life has gone way done just in the last 6 months not to mention the last 15 months. I can’t imagine what the last 10 years has brought.
Schools, food, rents, water, and almost every item has jumped considerably. The profit share and the pay raises don’t even come close to keeping up with inflation. In just a year I am worse off then when I joined. It just is not worth it and like I said I made a big mistake in coming to Emirates. This memo is to the pilots thinking about coming to Dubai and Emirates so they can think long and hard about such a career move. There are some positives but there are a lot of negatives as well. Do you homework and see what is best for you and your family. Ask your friends how many of them have sent their wives and children back home because of the ills of Dubai. Ask if their wife was on some type of medication. A vast majority of Emirates wives living in Dubai are, after all everyone wants to seem “happy.” Ask the pilots if they are walking zombies because of all the night flying we do. Ask them again if they regret coming. Then ask them from what airline they came from before Emirates to get an accurate picture. Ask ask and ask again. Get the information not from the company but from people you know and make sure they are telling you the truth. In other words don’t ask a management pilot or someone who came from a third tier airline. Emirates is not for everyone but if you do deciede to come, Keep Recovering! and good luck.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Ditto,
Dont forget just how easy it is to pick up a criminal record in Dubai. Then try getting a job back in your home country as a pilot.

[Desert Driver]

Some interesting points there. Some valid others less so. The Aviation industry has changed the world over in the past seven years and for a lot of that time the management have had a strong hand however times change. Some of the conditions you have enjoyed in the past are not available anymore.

If you dont like it in Dubai or with Emirates then leave.

DD

[Alconguin Crusader]

I forgot to metion that EK has a training bond that basically keeps you at the airline. I know I don't live in the states anymore but training bonds are illegal where I come from. Can you imagine the concept, we acknowledge as an airline we are not paying industry standard pay rates so we will use some artificial means to keep you locked in basically agasint your finnicial will. Bondage, think about it, we fought a war over the concept of bondage.
So to answer your question DD I would love to leave but Emirates being the corrupt corporation that they are force you to stay here. Also you must bring up the furniture bond as well as the provident fund which does not muture for 7 years. We should be fully vested in the provident fund on day one.
It must be quite easy for you to say if you don't like it just leave. Must be SA or Canadian or third tier airline aren't you?

[hans_airbus]

Mate there is always another option. Nobody forced you to leave a world class airline.

I left a very good airline as well but I am trying to make the best out of it.

So stop whining like a baby and make a wise decision.

[fatbus]

I've said this before.... dont let your big airplane EGO decide for you.... you will regret it.

If you need a job than ok

Upgrades will be pushing 5 years for anyone joining now and dont think you can commute or there will be basings

Inflation is out of control , you will have to add several years to your saving s plan

[Scooby Don't]

As AC says, he should have done his research. While I don't doubt that there are certain issues which would be hard to discover ahead of time (except by asking on a forum like this...), I'd have to say that AC's problems are of his own making.

As for Dubai itself, as a place to live it is what you make of it. Admittedly I don't work for Emirates so I have a rather better housing allowance. I still knew I'd be topping up the allowance from salary to pay rent of AED 180,000. I knew what I'd have to pay ahead of time, thanks to the wonders of the internet. Even the driving is something you can work around to some extent - go shopping when the malls and roads are (relatively) quiet! At least you don't have to drive yourself to work, as I do.

I wouldn't have sought to lambast particular nationalities, but AC managed to disparage Canadian, Seth Efricans and everyone from "third tier", for which I read "third world", airlines. Perhaps the medicated wives are mostly American? Perhaps the unrealistic expectations are also an American issue. They are most certainly AC's issue.

[Fart Master]

And the price of property in Dubai... JEEZ it's insane, not to mention the rents:mad:

[Wizofoz]

Crusader,

Whilst I'm sorry you are not content here, there are a few points you make that need addressing-

Firstly pensions- how many people from the "World class carriers" (read American Majors) you speak of have lost most or all of their pension entitlements, because of the complete inability for an industry to keep paying both their CURRENT and their FORMER employees? How many US carriers still offer a final salary pension scheme for new employees? If the pension contributions given by the company don't meet your requirements, SAVE!!

Sick and Vacation pay- This is a typical example of Americans thinking the whole world acts the same as it is in America. Here, you receive an ANNUAL SALARY for doing your job. If you are sick or go on Vacation, you STILL RECEIVE THAT SALARY. Recently, the company introduced flight pay and, sure enough, it is a consideration you receive when you fly.

Terms like "Trip credit, duty credit, minimum day" are American terms used at American carriers. I've worked in Australia, Japan, Europe and the Middle east. Pay and conditions and the way they are calculated vary from country to country and carrier to carrier. To come to a different country, and then complain because "It's not like this at home" shows a naivety and jingoism that is, unfortunately, not uncommon amounts people from a certain large Western democracy. What matters in the end is how much money ends up in your account. How it is calculated is, in the end, irrelevant.

As for bonds, I've had one on each continent I've worked on. So, as far as "Understanding the concept", try getting the concept that not everything is the same outside the lower 48.

Most airlines have a 4 –5 hour minimum day but not at Emirates.

None of the 7 airlines I've worked for in twenty two years have. You're not in Kansas any more....

Now, did your "World class carrier" give you free housing, medical, private education and transport to work? And what WAS the first year wage at that company?How many guys bitching at your old company because they might have to wait 4 years (or is it more like 14??) for a 777 command?

It's not perfect. It's not for everyone. But it is what it is, and is not looking like going broke as have half the "World class carriers", with most of the others looking pretty dodgy.

[bigilla]

Ask if their wife was on some type of medication. A vast majority of Emirates wives living in Dubai are
Pray, how would you know that?
By definition "vast majority" means at least 50% plus 1.
I've been here 8 years plus and I know less than 100 EK wives. You've been here a year and you know about more than 1000 wives? Who are you, the CIA?????

You were right in one issue though. Fekin stupid to come here without asking around first.......I did, and I've no regrets.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Perhaps he could spend some time on one of those onerous, non-paid layovers learning how to spell Algonquin........

[Alconguin Crusader]

I found out from the clinic just how many people are taking happy pills and other medication. Although I did not get the exact number I was assured it is a vast majority of the wives. Like I said ask the Doctors and find out for yourself. Then ask again.
All that I am trying to do is get the word out so another pilot does not make a mistake in joining under flase pretenses. As I said earlier I did not do my homework. If that is a crime then I am quilty as charged.
Just because some of you worked for some real dodgey companies that did have the items in your contract don't slag me off. In the end don't we all want to make the most money and work the least we can? My old airline did not give me housing or pick me up for work. They did give me free medical and paid me a wage that I could live on with income to spare. We don't get that at Emirates. Thank you for your concern.

[Wizofoz]

Just because some of you worked for some real dodgey companies


And there it is.... Anyone who does anything differently from an American Major is a "Real Dogey Company.".

Mate, I worked for the number two major in Australia and the largest Lo-Co in Europe. Both offered good pay and conditions, just different from what you would be used to.

You did not join under false pretenses, you joined under the terms and conditions as advertised and detailed in your contract. If you were too ignorant to understand it spelled out methodologies different from what you were used to, that is your own lookout.

I also find the idea that the clinic would just toss you information as to who is taking what very unlikely. Why exactley did you ask?

[CAYNINE]

Wizo....big elephant stamp to you for a good rebuttal to another 5000 words of emotive garbage.

The good ol howdy doody boys from the glass house have never had to clean the windows and look out at the rest of the world.

The US economy would be in such a wonderful state at the moment because of......umm.

But big Al..... your fellow introspective compatriates continue to come here, if it's so good in the land of consumption and excess then why???

It's not that bad!!!!:ugh:

[Roster Change]

Just take a look at the Ozzie dollar exchange rate today !!!! And the big pay day (profit share) next week. Nerves of steel is required when you are an expat.

[nolimitholdem]

But big Al..... your fellow introspective compatriates continue to come here, if it's so good in the land of consumption and excess then why???

Whoa enjoying the big bun fight and all, but ya lost me here. The UAE has the world's largest carbon footprint (god I hate that phrase), and takes consumption and excess to levels never even imagined in the good ol' US of A. Kinda rich to be pointing fingers from Dubai. At least Lincoln eventually freed the counterparts to our poor subcontinent friends working away in the 46C heat on the various monuments to greed/ego/stupidity.

It's not that bad!!!

Yeah, it is. Dubai has to be the most over-hyped location on the planet. But you have to learn to extract what you can and move on. That's about all this part of the world is good for. "Big Al" may come across as a little naive, but if someone is earnestly trying to tell potential joiners about the Emperors shocking lack of attire, I'll second (third? fourth? five thousandth?) the motion.

[Canoehead]

Where can I meet some of these medicated wives.........?

[brassplate]

i had a buddy with ek whose wife fled dubai. and she is from as third world a country as they come. that's gotta say something about expat wives in dubai. no booze, no pill popping, just ran.

[ekpilot]

Actually most of what AC said is part of Dubai's reality. We all came to improve our situation in the first place. But yes some people get a reality check big time when they get here. I've been here long enough to say "I'm happy there is more time behind me then ahead of me here" Don't kid yourself. If you come from a first world country you are actually moving to a developing country to be politically correct. And you bet it is developing. And in the middle east... Hello! This is expat world around here and you are not home. Not easy sometimes I have to agree. When you hear some people around here you think Dubai is the best place on the planet. They truly like Dubai and i can understand in some extend. Well good for them. I wish them a long and prosper life here. But then for others like AC it's not and i think anybody from a first world country can truly understand AC unless they are in denial. There are many types of people around here as you will find when you come here. Who can be the judge. Dubai is what you make it. Sadly all i can say to people like AC is do something about it. Not easy you will say, i know. But the problem is once you are here, you are stuck here no matter where you are from. It's a big move to come here. When i came close to 10 years ago it was a very different place here. The company was very different too. Today it is a very different situation and there are many more points to consider before coming to Dubai. Good luck if you consider Emirates. Do your researches. Don't rush it. The info is out there. This rumor web site is still a very good source of info no matter what some people say. I did it back then, and i am now planning my next move. It's all about timing i guess. I got lucky i guess and a few more years here and bye bye thank you very much...

In the mean time, keep discovering:ok:

[Desert Driver]

[Must be SA or Canadian or third tier airline aren't you?]

Sorry to disappoint but I am not a SA or a Canadian nor did I work for a third tier company. I have worked with many of the above and many are able to adjust learn if required and achieve. Your attitude suggests that you can't.

So as I said previously LEAVE

[Alconguin Crusader]

If you saw my last post you would have known that leaving is no easy task because of what Emirates imposes on us. If Emirates would relieve me of the bonds (previous post) and give me all of my retirement fund (7 years) I would still have the added expense of paying a moving company to pack my things and ship them 7368 miles back home when I have barely paid for my move over to the sand. Thanks for the advice DD.
Ask the Drs. at the clinic about the rate of medication that is being issued. Don't take my word, ask ask and ask again. I have said that many time before.
The Wizoz must be a DEC and has a much different attitude about Emirates and Dubai then I do. The 3 airlines that I previously worked for all had the work rules I described in my post I am sorry that your 7 airlines did not. I would have thought that you would be happy for pilots that enjoy those conditions and try to get those items at your 7 airlines instead of trying to put us down. Is jealousy entering the equation?
So I can't adjust to Emirates and Dubai. I guess that is another crime. Dog breath most of the US pilots coming are the commuter types not from the majors and I will be the first to admit that it is a giant leap up in conditions for them. If they doubled my salary I would probably be adjusting a lot bettter or at least tolerate the treatment here at little easier.

[yoyonow]

Whaa….Whaaa my diaper’s full. Man up, you just learnt a valuable and expensive lesson in life. Do some research next time……

[Alconguin Crusader]

That is exactly what I am trying to prevent some other poor sap from doing. As for the money I am painfully aware of the lesson learned but thanks for the notion.

[mensaboy]

AC has been quite forthright in his views. He is simply trying to disseminate information that was either not available or he did not obtain prior to his decision to come to EK. I applaud his honesty and integrity. He makes NO EXCUSES and openly admits he thinks he made a bad decision. That is something not easily done by some, in my opinion.

I do not agree with all his assertions but the overall theme is accurate. For those who fire of the ''then just leave'' posts, try to consider HIS situation and not YOURS. He has explained at great length why leaving is so difficult and if you don't understand those reasons then you will not understand much of anything.

A post like AC's can be invaluable to those considering EK. They can choose to ignore it, deem it not pertinent to their circumstances or use it as a factor in their decision.

If I could suggest something to AC, try to make the best of things. Take the good, do your best to ignore the bad and bide your time. It is very true that when upgrade time rolls around, that will change a great deal for you. Not only does it change things at work, it will improve your quality of life as well. In addition to that, you will shortly thereafter be in a position to more readily leave if that is what you still want.

It is a rollercoaster ride for sure at EK. I am glad I came and glad I stayed but there were times I felt like you do now.

[Desert Driver]

Mensaboy

I do understand that it is difficult to leave but the initial post was full of inaccuracies and the reply was disparaging towards SAFAs Canadians or anyone that has not flown with US Air (his previous) later response stated that he would leave if the company paid 7 years of provident fund etc.
It all sounds like a petulant child that has not got the fortitude to do something positive.

DD

[6000PIC]

Thanks AC , I have been thinking about Emirates lately , but you can sit back , relax , and know that you`ve helped one pilot avoid making the decision to work for such an Airline , so you`ve helped at least one fellow pilot with your posting. I`m not that desparate. I don`t want to slag the flight crews for their choices , but nothing will change in that part of the world. Once GWB leaves and BHO takes over , you`ll have an America worth going back to. Good luck.

[Wings Of Fury]

Here is my solution if you really don't like the position you are in:
(if you are fed up with emirates treating you poorly)


1. You obviously have a good current type rating.
2. Find another job that you think has better Pay and Conditions
3. Just after you receive your pay check, hand in resignation (while on leave would work better)
4. Before anyone can arrest you, be on a flight out of there (a different airline)

Screw your bond, forget about outstanding money they owe you.:bored:
Not sure if this is possible there as I am based in another Middle Eastern country and airline, but before I ever take a job in these parts I make sure that I can do this at the drop of a hat. I have seen many pilots do it.
I know it gives us a bad name, and it’s a sad day when one has to do this, but one has to look after himself.
One condition which I think gives you the right to do this is when they seriously do not follow the contract you both signed,

So the big question is: Have they broken the contract you signed?

[Instant Hooligan]

To say that a bond is illegal in the US is just incorrect and misleading. Many companies employ the tactic in the US to retain staff to cover initial training costs. Some even require you to pay for that training. I have experienced it first hand(training bond) and have many friends in the US who also have.

[mensaboy]

DD,

I see your point after reading your latest.

(my quote thing never works, sorry)
''It must be quite easy for you to say if you don't like it just leave. Must be SA or Canadian or third tier airline aren't you?''

All I THOUGHT he was saying was that in some areas of the world aviation is in such a poor state of affairs, that EK seems wonderful by comparison. Perhaps I have misread that, but I did not find it to be disparaging.

I just find the ''THEN LEAVE'' sentiment to be wrong. It is not easy to leave especially if only here for a couple of years. Plus, I think leaving at that point, for most pilots, would be counterproductive from a career and financial POV. I can understand why some pilots feel trapped.

AC is pissed off and rightfully so in some cases. He made some valid observations and comments on things the company has done and continues to do to pilots. There are other points such as being followed by a security guard in a store that seem strange to me, but then again........ this is Dubai.


I honestly believe his post was meant to help INFORM those in similar circumstances. I do not believe he is whining. Considering his level of frustration and disappointment, I found his post quite objective actually. He feels he was duped !!


On a further note,
What really pisses ME off is that EK could quite easily be the best flying job on the planet. We should have pilots banging down the doors to come here. There are so many advantages being here, but for some reason management seems to do its best to counter those with stupid policies. I agree that most of the impetus is for cost savings, no matter how misguided they may be, but there is more to it than that. Their is an attitude on the part of management, not conducive to worker loyalty or happiness. And even though the FTL's and lack of pay for some work has the most affect on me, I still believe the DEC policy was the most unnecessary and foolish policy implemented so far.

[gj18457]

I found AC's post overall quite accurate and valid.And I feel sorry for him.He is a small percentage and obviously didn't get accurate enough advice.Most of his grievances wont affect many of the new guys as they have mostly come from LCC's and are generally on a better package.AC perhaps you can go and see HR and the clinic and tell them you really hate it and need to get home.Come up with some compassionate reason and I'm sure they will let you go without having to pay the bond.

[Gillegan]

While I thought that the comparisons with the working conditions of American major carriers a bit over the top (given the state of the American airline industry, I certainly wouldn't hold them up as a shining example to emulate), the initial premise - to do one's homework and know what you're getting yourself into is certainly valid. I can't tell you how many times in the last few months that I've been with a new guy (invariably from the U.S. and almost always from regionals) and as I relate some of the more onerous practices of our employer, just watch their jaws drop. They didn't have a clue.

It's not up to me to tell anyone whether they should be happy or not but anyone considering coming here owes it to themselves and their family to read the fine print and be aware of the negatives as well as the positives. If they then make an educated decision to come to Emirates, they probably will be happy and will certainly be easier to spend the night with somewhere over the Indian Ocean.

But then again, they are nice new 777's........

[JungleJett]

A.C. you do have some valid points but over all you sound like a cry baby.
Whining because you can't get vacation during the summer after a whole YEAR and a HALF seniority with the company.....wake up dude! Could you bid for week-ends off or 4th of July off in your First Class First World Airline whatever.....after less than 2 years seniority?? :=
Whining that the summers are hot here? Now if you didn't know THAT before coming here, not only you sound like a cry baby but also like.....oh well I don't want to be disrespectful.
I've been flying in your First Class side of the pond too and believe me I did not spend a single week-end with my family for the first 4 years.
Bonds being illegal in the U.S?....Another big fat B.S. I know tons of Airlines in the U.S where you have to sign a bond.
So chill out dude, grab a cold one and consider your First Class world options....sitting home reserve, ready reserve or airport reserve for the next 4 years and guess what?....No week-ends off and you WILL be airport reserve on the 4th of July....
JJ out....

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Not a pilot - but former SMNC RF was forced by his spouse to leave DXB in '04. He returned to the UK to become MAS LHR. After some reality check, same wife insisted on a return to DXB at the first opportunity. RF is back in the NCC and we can't get the smile off his face.

[Raise or Fold]

A.C.
What fine airline did you come from in the USA?

[disconnected]

As aviation jobs go EK is not too bad.

I believe the issue is with the world economics and the piloting profession.

The days of a good salary for being a heavy jet captain are gone. Worldwide they earn less in real terms than before. The trend is down in almost every aviation job. In Dubai it is exaggerated because the Dirham devalues daily and the inflation climbs in exponential fashion.

The world economy is in a mess because of poor governance from western nations. The eastern nations who are getting rich as a result do not have the depth of experience to spread the wealth. Hence a few get obscenely rich while squeezing the rest to make their billions. Ultimately this will be their downfall as history has shown time and time again. However that is not likely to be in the near future.

EK pilots must realise that they are simply highly paid labour, with minimal rights and ever decreasing economic options. Its not going to change and will in fact get worse as inflation sorts out the rich from the poor and eradicates the middle. See Zimbabwe for an extreme example of this.

You are not protected from exchange rate movements. The ERP fails to do this. It helps but it is a flawed and outdated system. It hasn't succeeded has it?

Inflation is about to explode with the ever decreasing dirham and oil climbing a dollar a day. The fallout from this will take a few months to sink in making our pay rise irrelevant in context.

As for the provident fund. Well thats a joke. It has performed at a rate of 5.5% over the past 10 years. Inflation has taken good care of that. You might have enough to buy a small car at the end of 20 years. Of course if they had simply bought oil or gold with the contributions, we would all be millionaires after 10 years service.

That's a fact.

[middlepath]

THANKS TO AC AND OTHERS FOR CONTRIBUTING USEFUL INFORMATIONS FOR MY DECISION MAKING PROCESS. Slowly loosing interest of joining ek.:(

[typhoonpilot]

I do understand that it is difficult to leave but the initial post was full of inaccuracies and the reply was disparaging towards SAFAs Canadians or anyone that has not flown with US Air (his previous) later response stated that he would leave if the company paid 7 years of provident fund etc.
It all sounds like a petulant child that has not got the fortitude to do something positive.


AC didn't work for USAirways. He is busy trying to slam USAirways pilots in the North America forum. Using inaccurate assumptions in the process as well. Sense a pattern here? :hmm:


Typhoonpilot

[picollo]

On a different note,

After meeting the requirements to upgrade, what does a FO have to do to qualify for command?

What does this Command Assessment program involve?

Thanks

[jb1191982]

Does anyone know how the quality of the working conditions and treatment of maintenance employees are for EK. Thinking about giving it a try. Thank you

[expat400]

You guys in this forum is quite funny. Over the last years I've read a couple of similar posts as AC:s. They are usually followed by the:

Good post!
Accurate!
Well done!
etc etc

But when an American posts it.....

Whoaaa!

Suddenly the majority screams out in defense of EK and Dubai!

And the guy isn't even a DEC....

Interesting.

[lalo737]

Thanks My Friend Its Verry Nice To Hear The Point Of View Of Some One To See The Wall From The Other Side
I Am 10 Kts Before V1 And You Are Telling Me Part Of The Answer That I M Looking For To Abort Or Conti.
Once Again Thanks Its Verry Helpful Your Coment.

[JungleJett]

Lalo what's up with the capital letter at the begining of each word??.....

[cerbus]

I have never heard of any airline ordering its employees to pay a bond in the US. Some high level managers sometime sign a non compete clause which is also highly suspect in a court of law but I have never heard of any airline "offering" a bond to its pilots. Must be some fly by the night operation just trying to make a buck off some dumb unsuspecting pilot.
Non of the majors give it, non of the commuter that I know off (I could be wrong here though) give a bond and non of the frieght dogs do it either (Fed Ex, UPS, Airborne).
When a comany gives you a bond I would be very careful of what kind of operation I was getting into. Why would an airline do that and what are they trying to prevent by their actions or even inactions?

[CRJDOG]

Mesa Airlines
Great lakes

Both have training contracts. you leave you pay! I dont work for either but I know pilots at both. They are both shotty operators!

[cerbus]

How do they ever enforce the payback? They probably don't offer a pension so what are they going to keep from you? Just walk away and tell them you will fight this bond in a court of law big time. I know that will cost money which most commuter pilots don't have but I can not fathom how that is legal. Just because some shotty airline makes you sign a bond does not make it legal and binding don't forget.

[saywhat]

Why would an airline do that and what are they trying to prevent by their actions or even inactions?

It's quite obvious. They want their pound of flesh. They are trying to prevent people coming over to the Emirates, getting a free 777 or 330 conversion and then saying thanks, goodbye. Hell, think about it. Get a job, free accommodation, paid a salary, get the conversion and then leave............If it's just you going, it costs nothing.

[ruserious]

Fair play to you AC, a lot of what you say is true and spot on. Even more important, this is from your perspective and just like opinions we all have different perspectives.
Anyone looking to join here has to take all of the perspectives into account. If you are joining from a 'developing nation' somewhere with poor prospects, crappy airlines, yours is going bust or a country going through spin-cycle, then the airline will seem wonderful (for a while).
If you are joining from a developed country or one with good laws, social behaviours, justice system and civil liberties, then your perspective may be in for a shock.
I used to be very happy here, now I grin and bear it :eek: yes I could leave, but it still suits my purposes for a while longer

[Wiley]

On the reasonable/unreasonable scale, I think few fair-minded people would suggest that EK's bond isn't waaaaay over towards the 'extremely reasonable' side of the scale. I think it's still the same today as it was when the airline was first formed back in 1985, which, (since everyone here is constantly reminding us), with inflation and the plummeted/ing USD/Dirham, means the 36kUSD reducable over 3 years today represents a fraction of what it did when it was first introduced.

EK could improve quite a few things for its pilot group, but credit where it's due - 36k North American Pesos, reduced monthly from the day you're cleared to the line, is a pretty cheap wide body endorsement for anyone who chooses not to stay on the Sandpit (for whatever reason) for three years after checkout.

If you want to talk unreasonable bonds, take a look (but sit down first!) at the double slug SQ will throw your way if you want to work in Lyin' City. AND you have to cough up a considerable amount of money 'up front' to cover just ONE of the bonds, which you have to deposit into an account they have access to should you do a runner, even one day before your bond period expires.


..............

There's quite a lot of truth (if slightly embellished truth) in what AC said in his initial post, but some of his comments show a (still) amazing ignorance of the region he now lives in.

I thought there would be a few more howls of protest over his assertion that almost each and every one of us comes home to our Jumeirah villas to a 24-hours-a-day-Prozac-addled Jane.

(Maybe THAT explains why my much adored trouble'n'strife is always such a happy individual.)

[expat400]

Are you seated?

The bond at SQ Cargo (same in SQ): 156000 SGD (113000 USD).
You have to provide a bank guarantee of 56000 SGD (41000 USD) in a Singapore bank. No exceptions.

For FO:s: no upgrade unless you go on local terms for two years first which means no housing allowance (rents in Singapore makes Dubai look cheap...), no school allowance so after your upgrade you're more or less back to where you were as an expat FO.

Despite this many of our FO:s are now paying 30000+ USD to get out of the contract and move to:

Emirates

DEC:s or not, EK is still the fastest way to a wide body command and the salary considering no tax, no rent, no utilities looks reasonably attractive.

AC, like many have said here, stop looking at the details of your pay slip. Scroll down to the bottom line. Is it good enough then why bother? I meet guys here in Singapore making the equivalent of 800000 Dirhams a year complaining about not getting transport allowance.:ugh:

[Pilot022008]

If you ever worked for a US airline you paid for your bond with your first year salary !
At least with Emirates you pay nothing if you stay 3 years . In the US your first year salary is crap , so the airline "Collects" the training cost form you right away.:ouch:

[SOPS]

I must have missed something here. (Flak jacket on). ...I go on leave and I still get paid, I have been sick and I still get paid...well at least it seems I do, there is always money in the bank.

Perhaps my pay is not calculated the same as "American Top Line Airlines", with "trip rigs, jigs and gigs" or whatever else they offer. But under the contract I have with EK, they seem to pay me every month.

And thats the big thing....I am reasonably sure that my pay will be in the bank each month....if I was in the Land of the Free at the moment I might be a little worried that I might find out I did not have a job next week.

However..each to thier own. But I dont think you can take a job at EK and then complain that conditions you had before are not "exported" with you.

Got my hat and coat.....Im gone................

[disconnected]

Currency peg and oil prices add to inflation

Last Updated: May 03. 2008 5:19PM
Sultan Bin Saeed Al Mansouri, Minister of Economy. Jeffrey E. Biteng / The National

DUBAI // Currency pegs, as well as high oil and food prices, are compounding inflation, said Sultan bin Saeed al-Mansouri, Minister of Economy, on Friday.

The UAE was the first dollar-pegged Gulf state to match Thursday’s US interest rate cut, the seventh since September.

“This phenomenon is an expected product of our region’s economic boom, but is being compounded further by other factors such as globally rising food commodity prices, currency pegs, and excessive oil rates,” said Mr al Mansouri at a conference in Beirut.

“Monetary and exchange rate tools and fiscal options have to be considered with greater caution as they could trigger economic distortions,” he added.

Last month Mr Mansouri said it would be a “miracle” if the UAE meets its five per cent inflation target this year.

The second-largest Arab economy has tried to curb inflation by signing agreements with supermarket chains to fix food prices at 2007 levels. Gulf oil producers have also introduced rent caps, public sector pay rises and food subsidies.

UAE inflation hit a 19-year peak of 9.3 per cent in 2006 and probably accelerated to 10.9 per cent last year, according to an estimate by the National Bank of Abu Dhabi.

“Some countries have opted to turn to a basket of currencies ... Still others are weighing the effects of a currency revaluation,” Mr Mansouri added.

“While there is no single cure for the inflation problem as each nation has its own unique economic structure, the only certain actions we must take are to vigilantly monitor regional and global financial trends and act accordingly,” he added.

- Reuters

Fixing rents, prices and subsidies has never worked and never will. In a year's time they will be blaming the same old culprits but doing nothing about it. They were this time last year weren't they? That led to premature speculation on de-pegging the dirham.

Trouble is they cannot de-peg or revalue - Uncle Sam wont let them because the trillions that the Middle East would then flood onto the market would collapse the USA into a depression and it would not be unable to fund the shield in the Middle East that many Gulf states rely on.

Likewise the very wealthy with their dollar reserves would have them devalued overnight. Who's going to allow that?

So inflation will continue to soar as will rents and food and everything else while the media makes more soothing noises promising the problem will be addressed. It won't.

The public will pick up the tab for bad financial policy imported from the USA. That means less in your pocket every day.

[Wiley]

And on the main board, a thread announcing that American Airlines is slashing 12% of capacity and crews. Despite posts like AC's, stand by for another avalanche of applications from the land of Mom an' Apple Pie.

Isn't it funny the way an airline somewhere in the world goes dead ants every time EK is in need of pilots?

Looks like we'all who've bin here a while better start practisin' our "Emirates 1-oh-faive checkin'in, outov 2-5-oh"s, 'cos very soon, despite posts like the one that opened this thread, most EK pilots will be a-talkin' that way.

[disconnected]

All the large US carriers will ultimately collapse with the demise of the dollar, oil prices and further deregulation of the skys. They will be replaced by eastern and middle-eastern airlines with whom they cannot compete.

Expectation of salaries will be lower and the profession will take another notch down. Perhaps now is the time to take stock and wonder if another profession might be in order while age and finance still allow a new start.

In 10 years time, these salaries will look very good. Much like they did 10 years ago.

[SOPS]

AC is slamming US Airways on another thread....he has yet to accuse thier wives of all being on happy pills as well. Have checked all cupboards here...seems to be a lack of pills apparent!!!

Perhaps we could start a poll on here...Is Your Wife Living in a Drug Induced High? Yes...No...Not Sure..Could Not Care Less, She is Having a Ball.

At least that way we could get a handle on just how many 1000's of wives are living on the high side!!:}

[145qrh]

I think AC is problably more correct than many here would like to admit to themselves.

Many Ek wives are on the happy pills, in my sons class at school there are just under half the wives on them, not all EK but I think it is an indication.

If your MRs isnt then well done, but many are.

The EK clinic does hand them out like smarties, so how many of then on them actually need them is a different matter...:ok::ok:

[PITA]

Well if they get them, where are mine?

I want to be happy...........

Fair is fair.

[ironbutt57]

Of course the past year's bonus at Sin Cargo pretty much equals the cash-up-front bond...for Capts anyway...

[cerbus]

Without question I know three wives living in Silcom Oassis that ar on the happy pills and you can guess what country they come from. You can also tell when they forget to take the pills, quite a difference in their pesonalites day to day. We all want to be happy and remember that Denail is not just a river in Egypt. Keep telling yourself that you are happy ladies.

[Roster Change]

Anyone try getting their dependents medication at the pharmacy at the new EGHQ ? Nope, you have to drive all the way down to the SZR clinic to collect....balmy !

[cerbus]

Tell the ladies to stock up this summer or maybe they don't have to take the pills when they are out of Dubai. Out of sight out of mind. If I had to drive down SZR everyday I would need the good stuff too.

[Guns-A-GoGo]

you can guess what country they come from. You can also tell when they forget to take the pills,

How about you spelling it out for us..........what country.

And while you are at it, how is it you are spending all this time with other guys wives???????????

Or are you just plain nosey?

There sure does seem to be a lot of people who are really interested in other peoples lives!

Guns

[montencee]

Have you actually started at Emirates yet, Guns-A-GoGo? Or are you still an EK wannabee?

Your choice of handle worries me, although it sure fits the words of the character we've seen posting on this forum in the last few months.

[Guns-A-GoGo]

Neither actually.

The handle comes out of respect for a military unit my father was in during a war.

................deleted.................nevermind

GUNS

[Fart Master]

Hmm... needs Daddy to back him up:confused:

[IXNAT]

fart master,
You really are a dick. Man tries to honor his father and you have to make some immature comment. Says a lot about your character.:mad:

[Fart Master]

On the contrary have a look at guns a goo goo's first post, I think you'll find the pissy comments started there, as others have also commented.

And you'll also be from the good ol' US of A then?? ...yipee, glad you're here to save us all, spare us all the patriotic stuff, keep it to yourselves, I had family who fought in the WW's but unlike you lot I don't feel the need to splash it about.

So no I'm not being a Dick, I'm just giving a person who has decided to bring up his Fathers memory inappropriately, a bit of a forum slap.

[cerbus]

The ladies living in DSO (desert) are as you guessed it are from the land of the free and the home of the popping pill culture. It is probably not their fault. They are living far from home in a vastly different culture and not making as much money as they did in the states so their quality of life has gone down. They would probably all like to be living back in the states but put a good face on it and the pills help big time. Pop away ladies, we are all there for you!

[planesmack]

Those considering Emirates;

I did make a lot of money in the "Land of the Free'' and I love my home country and contrary to the crap I have been reading, I enjoy all Dubai has to offer and do not need "Happy Pills"to get through the days. But may I suggest to those who keep complaining, try visiting a local pharmacy and get something to calm your nerves.

Speaking only of the US and their taxes... after a pilot pays Federal, State Local, Medicare, Socail Security, Fuel and Energy, some states Food, and service TAXES, an EK pilot will have more cash in hand than one working for a failing airline in the US. As an added bonus if a pilot keeps his house in the US and rents it out and lives in Company accomodations the only things one will pay for would be food, sundries and internet.

Our quality of life has improved since joining Emirates. With only a few hours in the air, the opportunity to vacation in exotic places has become a reality. There is no longer a commute and this allows for piltos to have even more free time. Wives should see a drop in stress levels as house keepers, gardeners and nannies can be employed quite inexpensively. Anything, including groceries can be delivered to your door. Children receive a higher quality education here than most public schools in the US and statistically speaking... these children are accepted into better universities both in the US and world wide.

So if you are considering Emirates, chat with the people from your home country to get a better feel for what you may encounter.

[tbaylx]

So no I'm not being a Dick, I'm just giving a person who has decided to bring up his Fathers memory inappropriately, a bit of a forum slap.

Actually you were being a dick Fartmaster....

[Guns-A-GoGo]

Actually you were being a dick Fartmaster

I get it.........farty is actually one of those medicated wives.

You know the old saying, "If your Aunt had a dick, she'd be your Uncle".

Fart Member, you remember your family with your handle, and I'll remember mine with mine.

Guns

[antes56]

The problems that you mentioned for the EMIRATES are the same for all the middle est company??

Because I am trying to apply for the Ethiad company at Abu dhabi and I would like to know something about it from someone who know and not from the "official" way....

THANKS

[socal320pilot]

Now I know the bad and the ugly about Dubai and EK...although there's always two sides to every story.

Can you describe the benefits and what you like about EK and living in Dubai?

[Wiley]

s320p, you will almost certainly get a looooong private message from one of your countrymen by the name of Brian. You appear to want to hear some nice things about EK and Dubai. He will doubtlessly give you some, with lotsa sugar sprinkles on top.

[silverhawk]

Sorry for the thread creep everyone.


I'm trying to complete the application form for Emirates. The only missing item is a copy of my passport. Whenever I try to send it, I get a time out message.

Does anyone else have the same problem or a possible solution?

Cheers

[CloudSailor]

Silverhawk,
I've run into the same problem at home while trying to upload the scanned copy of my passport. I don't know how to fix it either...

[Gillegan]

It might be that the size of the scanned file is too big. Try reducing the size (lower resolution) and upload it again.

[rj274]

I'm really looking forward to the day that everyone who posts on here suddenly understands that each of us has an opinion, and it is purely subjective and based on our own unique set of circumstances which no-one else can appreciate because they are living a different life.

As for me, I left a U.S. regional for a U.S. ACMI. I am considering EK because after only four months with this cargo company I have forgotten how nice it is to have something as simple and basic as a confirmed hotel room waiting for you at the end of your day/night, or loading equipment that is functional and does not require nine hours sitting on the airplane waiting for the freight to come on/off. Also, while the 74 classic is most assuredly a step, or three, up from an RJ, it is an obsolete type-rating for which demand is mostly dried up. So, I am now in the position of having extensive glass time, and a short amount of heavy int'l time, but not heavy glass int'l time.

As I am still single moving to the sandpit is a decision that affects me alone. While I would like my personal situation to be different, it does have certain advantages. And while the pay may not be enough for some people, I have my financial situation mostly under control so this would be a way to stockpile cash as quickly as possible.

I appreciate AC reminding us all of the importance of looking before you leap and take all his comments seriously while setting aside those that do not pertain to my personal situation. Having flown around the "back side" of the world in recent months, and just completing a 34 hour duty day totaling 16.5 flight hours, with a double crew, I would be happy to fly 7 hours in the middle of the night on an airplane that will actually level off without me having to tell it to do so.

As I said, our subjective opinions are based on our unique circumstances. I've developed a certain philosophy while working for a company with little to no infrastructure and gaining some much sought after international experience, and keeping an open mind as best as can be expected:

no expectations, no disappointments.

It is sad that the industry has deteriorated to the extent that it has, and maybe re-regulation of the US industry will fix it, and maybe it won't. In any case taking the above position has helped with maintaining a certain level of sanity in a mgmt.-favored corporate environment.

Fly safe and walk away at the end of every flight.

[fatbus]

Just remember to take all the info into account, thats includes the bad with the good. That way when you do come you cant say you did not realize this and that, that would be your fault. If you look at all the info on pprune and tone down the good and the bad is printed by guys that claim they have treated poorly by the company, there is two sides to each story.
I'm not in any way defending the company, its just some guys are full of BS.


Some points to remember:

Temp housing for up to a year ( I would read into that longer)

Latest place is close to the dump(villas) and the 2nd phase at DSO has been delayed

Schooling right now is hard to get your kids into your choice and the cost is more than EK is paying( reviewed in JUY)

Upgrades 4-5 years both fleets, note that the fom refers to the min reqd not the actual

Training can be 3rd party and when you get here they send you away for 6 weeks

its 40+c in the summer so dont complain thats it hot, dont like the heat dont come

both fleets do lots of night turns to India and the new guys do most because of their position in the bid groups, even when you are in you top bid group you will have more than a 100 guys above, DEC's will be at the bottom for a long time,all current FO's will be above you when they upgrade so get use to night turns.

The upgrade, to some , is lots of work and for those that dont do the work the results speak for themselves.

Pilots do get punished( loss of bonus for 2 years)for a number of things

Staff travel is not cheap if it was you would never get a seat, the other 25000+ would fill every seat

ALT's is getting harder to book on the days you want, possible loss of vac days

Leave: NOT a given that you will get summer every year. You will fly as much as they can get out of you in the months you take vac.

Pets are allowed, lots of paper work.

Driving is insane, nothing you have ever seen, unless you have been somewhere else in the gulf. Your kids WILL see dead people on the road can't be avoided.

Inflation, gov says 11% this year but just ask anyone and the real number 30%, that is not EK's fault.

Pay, EK pays the least they have to in order to keep the A/C moving. Maybe we should be thanking the Gov for printing inflation at 10% last year if they didn't we might not have got anything.

Its a bonus NOT a profit share, I think SIA posted about the same profit @ 1.45 B $ dont know what they got for a profit share.

The job is good ,most of the other pilots are very good, the company is OK and Dubai sucks.

[SpiderMoth]

I have been flying twenty years...
Airline flying 13 of them...
Captain almost 11 of them...
All in the US...

I am applying to Emirates...

But the thing that never changes is pilots nagging in bulletin boards.

The guys and girls that are happy are never on the posts...
It is always the naggers... good googly moogly...

Reading these posts are no different than reading the post for pilots at United, American, Delta, Northwest, Britsh Airways, Cathay, JAL, KLM, Lutfwaffer (sorry)... anyway the list is endless...

Someone is always pissed and spends more time complaining than fixing the problem...

I believe that almost everyone went to EK for money... Not climate or social reasons... we are all whores... and went for the cash...

If inflation is bad... (1) every pay cheque move your money to a hard currency and stop it from devalueing... (2) If the retirement funds are so conservative and earning slow rates contribute less... see point (1) and invest privately in foriegn markets earning 55% plus.

I am sorry but you can't be that smart if all you do is complain and whine...

But I swear... all you complainers went to the same flight school because you are all on every airlines bulletin boards.

No one owes you anything... You are obviously bitter... that comes from regret... but I would imagine that had you not gone to EK... you would still be complaining and the bitterness would have a different taste.


You rot your own mind with the sh*t you fertilize it.

SpiderMoth

[theidler]

1/ US airline in bad shape.

2/ 11 year Captain hears about airlines in the Middle East where he can hold onto his command.

3/ Looks on PPRuNe to find out more.

4/ Sees posts about declining conditions at these airlines.

5/ Thinks pilots whinge and whine everywhere so it can't be true.

6/ And anyway he's joining on Captains terms so he's ahead of the game.

7/ Signs up to PPRuNe and writes belittling post about his future colleagues.


And if he's getting 55% on his investments wtf is he still doing in this dying industry anyway.

[mensaboy]

''I have been flying twenty years...
Airline flying 13 of them...
Captain almost 11 of them...
All in the US...''

I think the beginning of your post adequately explains why you have this point of view.
11 years as Captain at airline, out of 13. How fortunate for you, congratulations. Your nice little sheltered career in the US is going to look awfully good to you after your arrival here. ''Roger that, undershtand cleared down 24 OH !''

''The guys and girls that are happy are never on the posts...
It is always the naggers... good googly moogly...''

I am happy and I post here, therefore I singlehandedly prove you wrong.

''Someone is always pissed and spends more time complaining than fixing the problem...''
There is no avenue to fix any problem one might have at EK. You will learn that fast enough after your impending arrival. Will you be running for the head of our Union?


''If inflation is bad... (1) every pay cheque move your money to a hard currency and stop it from devalueing... (2) If the retirement funds are so conservative and earning slow rates contribute less... see point (1) and invest privately in foriegn markets earning 55% plus.''

You are not a logical thinker. 1-How does moving cash to a hard currency decrease the affects of inflation? 2- there is a bottom line contribution so that advice is irrelevant 3- can you give me a list of those 55% plus markets???

''But I swear... all you complainers went to the same flight school because you are all on every airlines bulletin boards.''
What exactly does that mean? So every poster on every board for every airline, went to the same flight school?


''You rot your own mind with the sh*t you fertilize it.''
Must be a pleasure spending a red-eye next to you.

So to sum up. You are a brilliant investor, a pilot who has spent a whopping 2 years in the right seat at an airline, with an apparently 'blessed' career path, who feels it necessary to criticize and belittle anyone who posts a complaint on an airline forum................. YET YOU ARE LEAVING YOUR STORIED CAREER BEHIND to join as a DEC........ and at an airline that should never have started a DEC policy!

On behalf of the rest of us whingers and complainers, I would like to welcome to EK the next Captain America!

Guys like you really do make me feel smart. Thanks for your intelligent and well thought-
out post, haha.

ps. Good post rj274

[SOPS]

"All of them in the US".....here comes another one!!:confused:

[GoreTex]

rj, remove your post, you give americans a bad name, now poeple think all americans are stupid which is not true.

[mensaboy]

I think you got that wrong Goretex. rj's post was excellent. The post from spidermoth is the amusing one.

[Trader]

Heard from recruitment guy that DEC are done for now - no more hiring of DEC's in for the next while anyway!

[gl69]

Do you really believe what the company tells you? When was the last time they told the truth? How many times have they told us no more DECs? As sure as the sun will come up in the east tomorrow Emirates will hire DECs just to further lower morale.

[Wiley]

SpiderMouth.. sorry, Moth, I had a friend who spent three years as a military recruiter. He said 99% of potential recruits had one thing in common - they heard only what they wanted to hear, and simply blanked out or ignored anything he told them that didn't fit into the mindset they had when they walked in the door, hell bent on putting on a uniform.

Six months down the track, a large proportion of them were bitching that things weren't as rosy as promised - despite the fact that he had clearly spelled out all the pitfalls and shortcomings of the system they would without doubt experience.

I had a similar experience in my time in the military when I found myself in a position of interviewing and selecting enlisted men for airmen aircrew positions. (Most applicants had spent three or four years in the Service in non flying jobs.) My speech to successful candidates went along the lines of: "If you have a really important family occasion, an anniversary, a child's school prize giving, a wife's birthday, I can almost guarantee you that you'll be away on detachment at the time or sent way on a trip the day before the big event. Have a talk with your wife (if there was one) and make sure she understands this, and if either of you can't handle that, this job isn't for you.."

To a man, the applicants would nod sagely and assure me they understood and were willing to accept that. ...and six or 12 months down the line... you guessed it. "We didn't know... Why weren't we told... I wasn't expecting it to be like this..."



Of course, with your (excuse me as I pause here to gasp in admiration) 13 years airline experience, 11 of those years as a captain, none of the above will apply to you. Welcome to the Sandpit. The lads in head office are gonna love you. But you'll really need to be creative to have them love you more than they already love your countryman Brian. (A perhaps cryptic comment you'll all too quickly come to understand after you get here to take up the DEC position [at least you consider] you so richly deserve.)

[7x7]

I have been flying twenty years...
Airline flying 13 of them...
Captain almost 11 of them...
All in the US...

I am applying to Emirates...We're saved!!!

Bloody septics. Their main problem? They don't know that they don't know.

[silverhawk]

Re-sizing the photo did work, thanks very much.

At last the application is finally submitted.:ok:

[Londonlads]

"Crew scheduling remembers everyething and writes it all down on your personal page."

Scarey! Scarey stuff! I would have thought that was the case with most airlines as it's probably very difficult to remember each and every employee! It even happens at BA! Yes! Believe it or not!

[RFusmoke]

great post...I can almost hear your southern droll whe I read ittttt!!!

now what eye wan d to no is what are you wastin your time answerin all thes dere criters on PPRUNE when you could bee hedgin all that dere mone of yours on oil or some thin ???

[vlatkomk]

Hello! I've been reading positive and negative opinions here for only a few days so please don't attack or be presumptuous about how much I know or don't know or how smart or stupid I am.
I would like to express my view on how I see this situation and I need your input, as objective as possible, on where you think I am right or wrong.

The way this job (F.O) is described on EK's website, it seems ideal to me - the "2 month regional pilot" with a min $720 paycheck every two weeks. I think it would help, when you express your opinions, to explain the background you come from and compare and contrast what is so great/awful at EK compared to your past work experiences.

Being from a not so smoothly functioning country in Southeastern Europe (Macedonia) I know that I would be used to the lack of liberty of impact on company policies/decisions/actions/justice/fairness so that is one thing won't bother me working for EK. The US is not much better. I work for one of the top 3 regionals in the US and in the 2 months of being there I have already seen the company override the contract in several occasions such as displacing pilots out of seniority after a base closed and so forth. So as far as EK's integrity goes, or any other's, you will be stepped on no matter where you go. I've accepted this, check in the box.

As far as living in Dubai goes, I have already made a huge cultural leap when I moved to the US as an exchange student at 16 (now 25). So I have already dealt with what most people refer as a "cultural shock" (which I never experienced) so It wouldn't be as hard to do it again. Drivers where I come from don't really comprehend the term defensive driving as it is anyway so little details such as that wouldn't really bother me as much. Males staring down other females (or even other males) as if it was mating season is another phenomenon I am very much accustomed to.

As far as money goes, I think that a starting salary of approx. $75,000 tax-free with majority of expenses paid is a very genenerous salary. For the skeptics that may claim it gets taxed when you bring it back in the US, it doesn't - as long as you spend 330 days out of the 12 months of the year you are exempt. So if you spend 5 years in Dubai stashing most of this money away, not to mention your vesting fund, which if honored at 12% contribution should bring you a nice chunk of savings.

43 days off a year? Who can beat that? (other than cathay) I think it's not bad if you can't take more then 3 weeks consecutively off. Would you be able to do that anywhere else? A handful of places.

I'm gonna stop listing EK benefits as I'm sure most of you are much more familiar with them then me. My attempt here was to present my view, and my view only. I don't think I am right or wrong neither do I think that anybody else is right or wrong. My point here was to show that a negative thing for you may not be such a bad thing in my opinion. I understand if you think that's stupid just because It doesn't agree with your view. But RJ made a good point when he said this is everybody's perception of things and a collection of views. So I invite you to give me yours. And more importantly I would like you to elaborate more and possibly document some of your points, such as company provided housing with maybe some pictures of the areas where you live, the interior, exterior, surrounding area etc. or just pictures from everyday life. What are some ranges of rental fees for, apartments, condos, houses, villas or any type of common housing that is in the Dubai area, in particular, areas popular for westerners or EK pilots.
What does DHS 10,565 in housing allowance a month get you? Do you only get this for a year? Are you on your own afterwards? Is health coverage free? Sounds like a good deal. What is flying pay? Is this additional to your monthly salary of Dhs 22,720 a month or is it calculated in it? What about productivity pay?
The website gives very poor description of some of the benefits and I don't see any posts that discuss these things at length. All I see is you guys bickering over who's sees what :)

Please, do not criticize my post, as it is a waste of all of ours' time. I would love to read what you have to add as long as it is informative, not just your general opinion. Opinions are good as long as they are objective, which we as humans are rarely capable of producing :)

[Saltaire]

Your situtation is not unlike the hundreds and more every month it seems, looking seriously at EK. From your point of view being very young at 25, and flying a small regional jet making just enough to party on the weekends, it seems like a very good deal. And much of it is....however, it is perspective and most of the new hires are older with families in tow with perhaps with more to consider. EK still has a minimum requirement and with more and more from the US applying I would guess recruitment will become more competitive. As it should, some of the new recruits are fairly inexperienced...:O having said that, "what the heck", if EK gives you the opportunity, who could fault you at 25 coming from a US feeder.

[White Knight]

Fatbus - summer leave has NEVER BEEN A GIVEN....... Did you take it as such?

[GMDS]

vlatkomk

We can all see where you're coming from and fully understand that the EK conditions must look like a bargain to you. Let's not forget however that earlier EK wanted to attract experienced pilots, LHS or RHS, mainly WB experience in their CV. With a few exeptions only bigger carriers provided such experience, so in order to reach these guys they had to set up similar T&Cs. With the need for more pilots and not enough trickling in, they lowered the requirements to get the numbers, therefore tapping into a pool who was not used to decent salaries. These might tend to regard the complaining EK pilots as whingers, but consider the above and you will see that the starting point is very different.

Just seize this opportunity right now, because i think with the downturn in global commercial aviation, there will again be a lot of more experiened pilots available! I believe EK will go for them, mainly because the higher training and failure rates the less experienced actually demonstrate mean higher cost.

Best luck

[Itswindyout]

Cut to the bottom line, it is great fun here. Life is good, OK, some problems, but who gives a flying F.

I am not with EK, but spend a lot of time inside their brain.

glf

[mensaboy]

Vlatkomk,

If I were you, I would be here in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.
Best of luck!

[Fart Master]

Gee, thanks, that really helps.

You spend a lot of time inside our brains.....:confused:.....huh!!

[MrMachfivepointfive]

???????????????? Haven't started yet? Spent there about 20% of my life and am about Jeremy Clarkson's age.

[kingoftheslipstream]

"The Good, The Bad and The Smugly" :p

... reckon that could be tha name of this thread! :hmm:

Well AC, give yerself another few months - it takes about 2 years for an expat to adjust to a new place in my experience. You may find reason to change your mind.

I am a Canuck, and I sure didn't get any hurt feelin's from anything you said in your post. Some nationalities are sure thin skinned... and they sure get on the offensive and off topic when they start playin' that card... sigh.

I hear what you're saying. It's unfortunate for ya personally that ya don't feel things are good fer you here at this time. It is a fact that expat life is not for all folks. It just doesn't sit well with some. You CAN talk frankly to your chief pilot and fleet mangler and see about what kind of consideration you could get if you really have to leave. It's been done before. They aren't completely inhuman.

I agree with most of what you say - some have disagreed with you here but, well, you have the right to your opinion. Most of the defenders of your post are the more articulate bloggers on this site - that says something I reckon.

I reckon what you say is good food for thought fer the newcomers and wannabees to the big sandbox. That's a healthy antidote to the slick advertising, recruitment, and dearth of conventional information about this carrier. Sadly, your painful honesty about not havin' done your homework and learnin' up about the pitfalls of DXB has permitted some posters to instruct you to 'man - up'. I reckon it takes a man to admit his mistake and so good for you.

I do object to the statement, (can't remember who made it), about the dead bodies on the road thing... hell, there's lots worse on television and some kids's video games than what you see in real life here.

It's a fact that some folks are trapped here by things that are a lot more dangerous than what you've said in your sensitive post. Ego, vanity, failure to update on the basis of new information and psychic traps of all sorts... there's all kinds of self deceptions here, just like at home and these all contribute at times to the stuckness that some folks have.

You have the ability to comprehend your surroundings and your situation and see that it's not for you. That's the first step to gettin' yerself out.:)

Good luck and fly safely.
k-o-t-s

[cadidalhopper]

Vlatkomk,

Small correction, you do pay taxes. Anything over 85,000 a year is taxable. This includes all income. Housing is income. School allowance is income. Furniture package/ furniture allowance is income. Anything you recieve from the company is income.

Honor system granted, but with over 150 American pilots and growing at Emirates you can rest assured that there have been a few meetings regarding this topic at your local IRS office. With an average of 1 in 97 Americans being audited... it only takes one to launch a large investigation.

[GMDS]

cadidalhopper

Please don't join the silly ranks ......:ugh:

School or education allowance is NOT income. It is a contribution to cost that would have been prohibitive for a lot of us joining. It's like EK paying a part of our all taxes, for taxes pay free education in modern societies. Children and education by the way are also a contribution to modern societies, this is for those who have a hard time adjusting to modern human civilisation.

As you point out rightly, everything you receive from the company is income. Well, we DO NOT receive education allowance. It goes to the school directly along with my mandatory and not so small contribution.
Income to me is when I receive money that i can decide what to spend it on. Housing allowance for example can be spent on a golf course villa, adding thousands of dirty-hams yourself, or on a small houseboat and taking out a big lump for savings.
We CAN'T do that with EA.

[cmspp]

Hi
I'm new at this forum, and say hello to everyone.

I'm planning to sign for EK.
Can some one give me a copy of a couple of your flight schedules?. I'm little bit worried about all things you are saying.

Thanks.

[Trader]

GMDS - I think his point was that housing and schooling is condidered income by the IRS and is therefore considered part of the income equation. You will pay tax on it.

Get divorced - they consider it income as well. Ask some of the guys who are in that situation and they don't have much 'cash' left over.

[GMDS]

Trader

I got the point, sorry.

I am of the vast majority looking at the Middle Eastern thread named "For THOSE (not only Americans!) who consider Emirates" and don't really care what the IRS thinks or does. The USA to us is just another part of the big world and by far not its center.

For us education allowance still is NOT income, because it does not come in. If you argue that this applies to housing, if you're in EK acco, then at least here you would have the choice of opting out to get the full amount and do with it whatever you want. Not possible with EA.

Just a question from a ignorant non-US viewer:
Is the assumption true that because you have to list EA to the IRS, that a married US-expat with 3 children (and therefore a nice EA) has to pay MORE tax back home than a single childless collegue?
(it would be mind boggling to me)

GMDS

[555orange]

Just read your post Algonquin Crusader. Great post...great subjective insight into Emirates. Thank you!

The rest of you are missing the point. AC was letting people like me who are considering coming there, the inside details that are very difficult to find out except from someone who as been there. There are other options out there, and other companies do offer more in terms of lifestyle/pay package balance. Stop snivelling and browbeating the ones who are trying to help the ones who need this info. Thanks AC...you have provided me the information I was looking for!!

The rest of you deserve the conditions you have. Take your 2 weeks vacation and then work the other 2 weeks at 80 hours. I bet you complain about it at the time don't you! Unable to take vacation when you want, working half a planet from your home, missing your family. And you don't deserve a better pension unless you band together with AC and speak with him. You are the ones who are reducing our profession to a lower level. We are highly trained professionals. We deserve respect and to be treated as such.

Honestly, do you all want poor conditions for everyone all over the world in our profession? Stop browbeating the people who are critical of the issues at your company. AC was hardly militant about it!! It says volumes about yourselves.

[troff]

A! I like it 'ere, eh?
No shovelling da snow off da roof, no snow tire, no freakin' -35C in Feb, 'an, you can ski, swim or sail 365 day a year.
All dat and 32 cents a liter for da gaz. Also, 'dere is only full serve gaz.
c;
Troff

[Trader]

Hey GMDS.....now worries. I am not American but my understanding is, yes, the school fees would be included in your taxable income. They are a material benefit and so are taxable.

I flew with one poor fellow who is divorced and the judge uses ALL income - which includes the value of the housing allowance, retirmement fund etc in teh calculation of total monthly income. He then pays the allocated percentage to his ex-wife based on that total sum.

[White Knight]

LR3 - I'll second that...

Keep the blue side up.

[Lord Flashhart]

LR3-

Are you from England?

If so, there are some pretty bad things there that involve death. Why just recently in broad daylight some poor security man got stabbed to death outside the Virgin store in London. Not to mention the high crime rate, gang fights etc.

For those considering Emirates- come and enjoy. It is not a prison sentence, and you can always leave, (or you can stay and whinge continually like many of the losers on this forum).
;)

[Kennytheking]

555orange,

The rest of you are missing the point. AC was letting people like me who are considering coming there, the inside details that are very difficult to find out except from someone who as been there. There are other options out there, and other companies do offer more in terms of lifestyle/pay package balance. Stop snivelling and browbeating the ones who are trying to help the ones who need this info. Thanks AC...you have provided me the information I was looking for!!

I don't post often but I can't let an inflammatory post like this go unnoticed.

I am glad that you have seen it this way. Thank goodness you won't be coming here......apparently we have enough idiots in this place.

AC's post was one sided and, frankly, was factually incorrect. Just by way of example, we have a very good bidding system which he says is no good. I have often come across people that think like this and with a bit of probing I find that they do not understand how the system works or have unrealistic expectations. In short I think he is too stupid or too lazy to learn how it works.

He mentions that we do not get the credit when we call in sick......maybe factually correct, but how often does he call in sick that this is a factor in his life?

And you don't deserve a better pension unless you band together with AC and speak with him.

The pension here is fine.......this guy does not understand the difference between a defined contribution fund and a defined benefit fund. This is basic financial literacy. Why on earth would I want to consult with him on it when he is so clearly uninformed?

And don't get me started on the training bond issue. I signed my bond the same time as I signed my employment contract. Its is a simple clear contract and if he felt so strongly about training bonds why did he sign it in the first place. To whine about it afterwards shows a lack of integrity as far as I am concerned.

I can feel for the chap when he said he made a mistake. There are plenty of reasons not to like it here but to come across as a poor victim being knobbed by this big company is simply ridiculous.

[Saltaire]

Mr. Orange,

You obviously are not in a very good situation and are hoping to improve it. But are you trying to convince others or convince yourself because of the conditions of your current contract....

Best of luck

[Lord Flashhart]

LR3,

Fair enough - Good post. I agree with your last post 100%.

Have a great day,

LF

[cerbus]

Kenny the Prince you have not worked at a real airline if you think your retirement fund at EK is good. How much money do you have in your account? Let me guess, not much! You render your crediablity useless when you say the retirement program is good here.
The bidding system is rigged and is not a real bidding system either. You should know better.
After being here for over 7 years I do not believe that there are any factually incorrect items in AC posts. Ek is not a top tier airline as has been metioned before and everyone should be beware before signing, especially if you come from a top tier airline.

[IXNAT]

Cerbus, Are you nuts? 17% (5 of yours 12 of the company's) of your basic salary going into a retirment fund that you direct is bad? Find me one-just one, retirment fund at any US MAJOR airline that is better than that. My friends there who have lost all of their retirments from major US carriers are doing very well with their fund. Maybe it's not what some unionized EU carrier is getting, but 17% ain't real world back in the US.

And the bidding system is great according to my buds. They seem to be happy knowing in advance when they are on reserve (not 5 years solid at some US carriers) and at times they are at the top of the bidding system.

It's difficult to broad brush Emirates (as an airline) when it seems that many there come from situations where conditions are not as good as Emirates. But to say that the bidding system and the retirment system is no good or lacking is just wrong when comparing it with most (if not all) airlines in the US. See what kind of money you would have after 25 years at Emirates at a conservative 5% compounded.

[cerbus]

Delta is getting 13% of the very high salary. Northwest even with their pension frozen is getting more that EK and that is just from their A plan. Their B plan tops ours hands down. Continental is very good and puts EK to shame. And then there is AA whose pilots only retire with $3 million of the company's money. They can also put in 5% or more of their own money just like EK and probably go over $4 million.
If EK is such a great deal why do so many pilots have so little money after so many years? After 7 years I don't even have $75,000! Can you believe that? And it is not just me ask countless other pilots and they will tell you tales of the same.
The bidding system is full of manual interventions and you know it. Yes they would have a proper bidding system if they left it alone but you and I both know they can't leave well enough alone.
Yes I am nuts becasue I am an EK pilot. Because of my many late night flights I don't think clearly anymore. I guess I don't need a pension since I am going to be dead at an early age. Keep Recovering

[twieke]

The PF is something a lot of people complain about, however a lot of them have never done anything with it, and just let it sit in cash. Only one third of those enjoying the PF have ever registered with the company that is payed by EK to give advise on the investment choices.
Ofcourse, pilots know the financial world a lot better than financial advisers and they don't need the advice....

No complaints about my PF.

Rgds

[cerbus]

How long have you been at EK and how much is your account? If you have no complaints than something is seriousily wrong. Just look around and see how much and see how much ours is lacking.

[twieke]

Over 5 years, up more than 20% on average.
Fair enough, it's not 50% or 80% like some made in real estate, but hey, I can live with that. Good for those who did take the risk and had some money for downpayments.

[Lord Flashhart]

Hey Cereb,

stop spending your didums down at the yorke. Didnt you just get about 120Grand in the bonus.(70Grand if you are an F/O.) Not bad. I dont think you can completely rubbish the pay here,especially if you come from 90% of the other countries that think the wage here is pretty good.

[vlatkomk]

120 and 70 grand in which currency? Dirhams?

To everyone who writes positively about EK and is happy and satisfied with the the benefits there, especially the pensions fund, I really wish you would just come out and say (or at least send me a private message with an oath that I won't tell) how much money you have in your account after the number of years you've been there. I just would like to get a good idea of how much I could actually make, and get both sides of the story. All i see is the repetitive post of one or two persons that claim they have $75 000 after 7 years and others that say they're happy with their pension but won't say how much that is. I get it, it's a private matter, but for the sake of information. Please.
I can see how somebody that didn't invest their pension money in anything didn't have any significant return so therefore they're just sitting with their vested and contribution money in their account, but just how much does somebody that did the most they can with their pension fund have in their account after, let's say 5, 7, or 9 years, or any other number of years?

[vlatkomk]

Oh and this is for the Delta pension post:

401K:
yes401k Matching:
2% (DAL contribution; no pilot match required)A/B Fund:
none/9%Other:
Profit sharing


Info is off of airlinepilotcentral. I don't know how accurate it is, but it's a 100% accurate about my airline.

[gonoles]

For those comparing Emirates to Delta, NW, United, Continental etc.......did I miss somewhere that these companies are hiring or will be hiring anywhere in the near future? From what I hear in the states these companies will and are laying off employees. There is no projected growth at these companies. Many friends at these companies have been furloughed after 9/11 and now they are called back there and still sit at the bottom of a seniority list with no hope for upgrade in the next 10 years. They also worry they will be layed off in the fall. So what Emirates has to offer is job stability, a pay check, the potential for profit sharing, a quick upgrade on the best planes in the sky, and by the way they are HIRING. Good luck getting a job at a US company right now. As far as I know only Netjets is hiring but they have over 10,000 qualified applicants on file. I am not saying you should ever leave a major US airline for Emirates, but if you are at other carriers with the potential for furlough, no hope for upgrade, and pay cuts eminant then Emirates is a great option. As far as saving money run the numbers yourself. Make a budget, take into account all your expenses and see what you will save. Make sure to put in an "other" category on the budget that has some extra money for unforeseen things. Also until you make captain at EK I suggest no American Schools for your kids and no maid. By cutting those two things out you can save about $2,500 a month right there. Those not saving money usually are paying extra for the maid and American Schools. American Schools for 3 kids runs about $2,000 a month for primary age kids. The Intl. and British schools will provide a great education and most US colleges (except maybe Ivy League) do not care which school your kids go to. Anyway, when the majors do start hiring maybe 5 years from now if you go to Emirates now then you will have wide body Captain time and if you hate Dubai then you leave. If you love it and stay , then with some budgeting and commitment to saving you will retire early 20 years down the road with enough money in the bank to do so.

[GoreTex]

10 years in the company and my provident fund is 110.000 US$, ok you can blame me for bad investing now, but show me one who made MUCH more.
how long can I live on that after I retire? well a long time in india or somalia, but not so long in a the US, forget europe.

dont know why the average EK pilot always brags about his income, is it to justify his decision to himself or his buddys back home?

I am not writing that to keep anybody from joining EK, because nobody will listen anyway, but I love it when I fly with them after they have been here for a year, I just tell them what I've been told years before "shut up or leave"

[cerbus]

Keep drinking the Kool Aid fellows. We all know you are trying to justify why you left your home country to come to the sand. Money might be comparble or even better depending on which airline you can from but you can not put a price on quality of life or happiness.
By cutting out the American schools and the maids you are depreving you and your family of two of the basic joys of actually living in the sandbox. Why deprive yourself anymore than you have to. What is next you are not going to eat out either to save money.
If it is so much better in the sand why does not EK have all kinds of apps from all kinds of airlines. By the management own admission they are only getting 100 apps a week and they are from the commuter pilots and we all know how depserate they are. No widebody pilots or top tier airline pilots are comiing.

[BYMONEK]

Gortex

Okay, as you've asked.

$119,000 and exactly 5 years here. You and Cerbus might want to consider using the C fund if you want your PF to grow. Far wider selection of funds, all of which are available to joe public. Some of these funds have produced excellent returns. I stick in 12% every month and only started 2 years ago. I also arrange at least 1 meeting a year for financial recommendations, some of which I take, some not.

Like you, i'm no expert so rely on dollar cost averaging and am looking at a 15 year minimum investment time with a versified portfolio of funds. Another alternative is to send the missus out to sell a few Dubai villas. Now that would boost your Provident Fund!

[GoreTex]

monek,
you said it, you put your own money in, I just put the company money in, cos we are talking about a pension from EK.
of course if I invest 500.000 in the C account from my own money, I would have 610.000, but thats is not a pension, you compare dates and camels here.

[NO LAND 3]

$75,000 after 7 years is a little low - I see about 85,000.
Managed funds on average return about 4% after fees. Those who see a significantly higher (or lower!) return are usually the beneficiary of currency movements - ie my European fund has done well.
It's a fair scheme but you'll have to stay for 30 years for it to be useful for your retirement. Which sort of makes sense if you think about it.
On another note applications rose dramatically after the profit share was announced. So that worked - no need for large salary increase now...!

[Lord Flashhart]

cereb- that is not what the weekly propaganda rag is reporting. Plenty of apps according to management.

[Kamelchaser]

Jeez guys, what have you been doing?

135,000USD after 7 1/2 years. It's not that hard if you swap funds around a bit as the world economy goes through its different cycles.

[BYMONEK]

Gortex

I take your point but being apathetic to the problem is hardly helping your cause. I knew from doing the maths when I joined that to receive anything worthwhile would require further investment. The C fund is a vehicle to achieve that.

My salary affords a good standard of living and the amount left over is invested. What we all invest our 'left overs' into is up to us as individuals, based on attitude to risk and goals. Join the gold rush into Dubai property maybe or how about a safe but paultry 2% in the greedy local bank?. Or you could always send it home with a crap exchange rate.

Whatever you do, what i'm not prepared to do, is come back here in another ten years and complain that my PF fund is only worth $150,000 after a total of 20 years because I wasn't prepared to invest some of my own tax free salary.

You pays your money and takes your choices in this life. Camels, dates, call it what you like but at the end of the day it's your pension, not EK's.

BYMONEK

[NO LAND 3]

Quick question: when you leave after 7 years, do you get the End of Service Gratuity as well as the company PF contributions, or is it just whichever is worth most?

[MTOW]

Option 2, (your second guess).

[Kennytheking]

Yeah......I guess we don't have a penson fund here. Its a provident fund. Go figure.....:8

I don't believe many people(including myself) understand the difference. The fact is most employers these days are moving to "total cost of employment" packages. They give you a certain amount of loot for doing the job and you decide how you want to split it in terms of spending money and reirement benefits.

At EK they have made the decision for us, although you can put in more through the C fund. The end of service benefit is like an insurance if you like. After 7 years you get the full company contribution(I think its 7?). If you managed to screw it up and lose most of the money through bad selection of funds then they will step up and give you at least the EOS benefit amount.

I personally wish they would ditch the PF altogether and just give me the cash. Time to get real guys, you are not going to walk away with millions like an american pilot:suspect:........the PF here may not be the best in the world but it is certainly not "non existent" as implied by some people and is probably better than most.

[BigGeordie]

Uplock, unfortunately you are dreaming. The days of final salary pension schemes are well and truly over in the UK and the rest of Europe and, I imagine, in America as well. The pension/provident fund (I don't know the difference either, but I think a pension fund has to be used to buy and annuity when you retire- a provident fund you just get the cash to do with as you will. I'd rather have a provident fund thanks.) isn't the best in the world but it is no worse than I had in the UK.

Bymonek and Kenny are right, in the 21st century no company really cares what happens to its employees when they retire but Emirates at least gives us free financial advice and an opportunity to pay more into the provident fund if we want to. If we choose not to take that advice I don't see how we can then complain that the provident fund is rubbish.

[GoreTex]

ladies,
please dont call it pension if you put your own money in, call it saving instead.

a company pension is paid by the company and not by the employee.

[555orange]

Kenny the King, Im so glad you noticed.

I'll say it again. The point of this thread started by AC was to educate people like us who might have at one time been considering to come to the middle east about the possible negatives. But then those negatives are in the eye of the beholder arent they. If your so happy with what you have there, good for you. When its time to hand out raises, you can stay home and say no thanks. Everyone is interested in making their lot better...how can you do that if there is no one to talk to about it? You going to just accept what the company tells you? Dont be foolish...

By the way, my company, like yours is not too bad. But it has its issues as well. Alot of us are simply researching to see if there Dubai is really the paradise people like you talk about. You have your right to talk about it..and AC has his. Im much more appreciative of AC's candidness than your blind happiness.

Everyone knows Emirates is a descent job, but wouldnt it be amazing if it...
-Had a cash payment pension plan on an ongoing basis....like Cathay!
-Had a continuous seniority based bidding system....
-Had better duty time rules...
-Had better sick day rules and pay... (its beyond me that a company doesnt pay for a quota of sick days like every company and that you defend this! This is a basic human right! Everyone gets sick on occasion. You know Fatigue is sickness also.... and I need those sick days for this reason occasionally...especially after debating with you!
-etc etc!

Talking about theses things on a forum like this is productive because it gets people knowing what their getting into...and gets people talking. That in turn puts pressure on companies to improve conditions.
If AC is so dumb, then why do I have to explain this concept to you? I say it again, thanks AC for giving us the goods.

Here's a good one, I know of 2 people that left a company and gave up a seniority no. to go to Emirates, then after 1 year they both quit and went back to their first comany to rejoin at the bottom of the list again. That speaks volumes and is categorical and irrefutable FACT that what AC is talking about is true.

Finally....if your so happy Kenny, why are you surfing PPRUNE? Surfing for a job (nope), or just have no life? Or just too hot outside to enjoy your nice Villa?

Orange

[cerbus]

Triple nickel orange you are right on with your posting. I believe there are company Kool Aid drinkers maybe paid by the company or at least strongly encourged to get on pprune and refute all "negative" postings. Negative and truth might be sonomus in Emirates view, you know how they are. They will do whatever to get to the top.

[sanddude]

Whats the bull**** about sickpay. You get sick and you still get normal pay.Pretty standard stuff to me. What more do you want? A sick bonus?

[cerbus]

Stop with the Kool Aid mentality. When you call in sick and we all know that EK pilots have to call in sick because of where they live in the world and the kind of flying they do CC can reschedule you a flight even on your days off. When you do call in sick you lost the credit for that trip you called in sick for. If you were in productivity you lost that pay as well. It is not a typical sick base system and would not stand up under any test in the first world. Drink away Kool Aid members!

[Wizofoz]

would not stand up under any test in the first world.

It's exactley the system I worked under in both Australia and the UK. But I guess not being in North America, they're not "First World" countries....

[fatbus]

many many airlines are , you dont fly you dont get flight pay, all depends on how much flt pay is , at EK the flt pay is very littleat the moment IE @10%

[Kennytheking]

555orange,

Thank you.....at last you make some sense. I have no problem debating the merits of EK but, lets face it, your previous post was just an inflammatory dig at guys that disagree with AC.

You are quite right, AC has his right to express his opinion but he has chosen to do so on a public forum where his post is going to be scrutinised and may(or may not) be contradicted.

In terms of the points you mention........EK is a decent job with a package that is good by world standards(IMHO). Sure, I wish I had got 6 months bonus instead of 3.5 months. Sure I wish I had a 25% pay rise rather than the measly 12% that I got, but they a commercial operation and want to make a profit.

I don't know what Cathay offer, but we have a provident fund.....what more do you want? What is this cash payment pension plan you refer to?

Continuous seniority based bidding system? What for, many(me included) like the existing system?

Better duty time rules? The rules are pretty clear. I may not like working that hard but the rules are fine. Nobody likes a redeye through the night(and I just did 2 of them) but that is the nature of the job. I take the good with the bad.

Sick rules and sick pay? EK is a first rate company when it comes to this. If you call in sick, sure they don't pay you the flight pay(all of 45dhs/hr in my case) but that is life. What is more important, you can call in sick for 48 hours no questions asked. I had to go for an operation 6 weeks after being signed out and they took me off the roster, no questions asked, for as long as I needed. There have been cases of guys off sick for over a year, once again on full pay......oops, sorry, they didn't get flight pay.

If you call in sick for a long trip, once you get better, sure they put you on "available days" and sure you generally end up picking up the crappy flights. Apparently in utopia where AC comes from they console the sick guys with nice flights because crappy flights don't exist. Once again get real guys.....we have some nasty flights and if you are a free being with no roster for a few days, you are likely to land one of them. This is just a reality....not EK scheduling trying to punish you.

In terms of those guys that gave up after a year....sure it does happen. There are realities to living here. Very often, the wife takes strain and if she is not happy, you gonna pick up problems. AC makes a valid point with his post in that it is a big decision and not to be taken lightly but I have to wonder where his mind was when he came for his interview. Its almost like it came as a surprise to him that you cannot change fleets, only have one base or that we fly through the night.

I actually wonder myself why I post here.......:ugh:

Cerebus,

I believe there are company Kool Aid drinkers maybe paid by the company or at least strongly encourged to get on pprune and refute all "negative" postings.:D

Please can you point me in the direction of who hands out the cash for positive posting on Prune.....because right now damned if I'm not doing it for free.......its just not fair.

And what is this Kool Aid stuff:confused:

[Jockofthebushveld]

Completely off the subject here, is it true a captain got asked to leave because on a leave ticket , he was giving a hostie some action in his firstclass cube?

Another was also asked to leave as he was giving one of the recruitement ladies deep ones in the business class toilets on a longhaul flight.

Dont correct my spelling i know its bad , just give us some info here !!!

Sounds like the easy way out of EK

[Oblaaspop]

Jock,

Another was also asked to leave as he was giving one of the recruitement ladies deep ones in the business class toilets on a longhaul flight

Utter nonsense! It was the Economy class toilet!:}

Also have to interject about this sick pay crap...... A Capt on the B777 recently completed 7 months of sick leave after busting his leg in a desert motorbike accident. Company were (in his words) 'Brilliant' and was on full captains salary throughout.

Whats the problem? Do you guys expect a medal, and extra pay for being off sick?

[bogeydope]

Oblaaspop,

Some people and some companies would consider your example disability instead of sick..........

Sick usually implies a short period of time at some companies and it is a shame,that if you are calling in sick for a trip, you might be missing out on the productivity pay!!

But we're all professionals right......???!!

[Jet II]

its beyond me that a company doesnt pay for a quota of sick days like every company and that you defend this! This is a basic human right! Everyone gets sick on occasion.

I think your a bit confused.

All employees are entitled to paid sick leave, as specified in their Contract of Employment.

Employee Handbook, Chapter 1 - A2, Page 1

[Jet II]

Quick question: when you leave after 7 years, do you get the End of Service Gratuity as well as the company PF contributions, or is it just whichever is worth most?

Unless you leave within the first couple of years EOSB doesn't apply - all management staff above grade 9 (includes Flight Crew) are in Provident Scheme instead of EOSB.

[sanddude]

As far as I know there isn,t any flag carrier in Europe (first world after all) with a different sick pay scheme.
Anyway has been in the contract as it is for a long time. maybe you U.S. boys who joined in the last 1 and a half year should have better read the fine print. To eager to jump from an regional I guess. After all its al about doing your homework isn,t. Shame you dragged your family into it.:=

[Wiley]

From what I've seen over the years, the way the company has treated a number of people (pilots) who have had long term sick leave is one area you could not complain about.

[cerbus]

We are not talking about long term medical cases. What we were talking about is short term sick issues. This is when you are sick for a couple of days, 2-3 days. Emirates does not pay you for this. You lose the trip credit and you lose the productivity pay if you are in overtime. I don't know how they did it in Europe or even care but we should get full credit for the trip, pay and overtime. That is a sick pay system.
At EK if you call in sick you DO NOT GET PAID! I know a lot of you Kool Aid partitioners think Emirates is great and the world revolves around EK and you have had worked at places nothing better than EK but wake up and at least notice what you are missing. That is a simple request.

[fatbus]

Why do you think they started the flt pay system? Most pilots here are money hungry and as soon as they are in productivity they will think twice about booking off. But you still get all of your basic which is 90% of your total. Most airlines are pay for flying only, if they are on pure hourly they have a min pay for the month( @60-65) which covers off a book off with NO pay.

[Wizofoz]

That is a sick pay system.


No, that is a North American sick pay system.

I don't know how they did it in Europe or even care

No, because if it's not how it was done where you came from, it doesn't exist- though you did care when you said this-

would not stand up under any test in the first world.

Seems the first world just got smaller!!

At EK if you call in sick you DO NOT GET PAID!

Yes you do, you get paid base salary!

but wake up and at least notice what you are missing. That is a simple request.


Yes, we get it. In the US you get paid for flying you didn't do- fine and dandy.

You also get to fly for carriers that are hemorrhaging money, furloughing and downsizing or just plane going out of business. You get to spend years flying foe a regional on slave wages before finally cracking a major, only to find yourself back on the streets next time oil goes up (Oh, and FIRST WORLD countries have decent redundancy payment laws- not like that bosses Paradise in the US!).

Wake up and notice what you are NOT missing- Job Security for one.

[airbus757]

Basic salary-call sick-get paid.
Flight pay-call sick, you did not fly-don't get paid.
Productivity pay-call sick, you did not produce-don't ge paid.
Seems fair to me.

7

[BYMONEK]

Cerbus

You're talking utter tosh.

If you call in sick, you DO get paid. Simple as that. You get paid your basic salary at the months end, whether you've been sick for 2-3 days or the whole month. Of course you don't get flight pay. That's because you ain't done the flight you numpty. Why on earth should you get flight pay let alone overtime when you're at home. I've never known any Airline to do that. If they do that in the good ol' US of A, is it any wonder the Airlines are in such a mess out there.

Come out with that sort of crap on the line and it's a band aid you'll be needing, not kool aid.

[555orange]

Sickpay, duty rules... to me these are minor things, but nice to know what the real deal is from the guys/gals on the line. But I have to be honest, the biggest issues for me are
1. Living there...temp/treatment of wives fam/feeling like a foriengner/driving/beyond the city.. anything? etc
2. Standard of living...
3. Why are all the Villa's the same.. is there a cash scheme so you can do your own thing?
4. How easy is it to get time off when you want... Mom and Dads 50th Anniversary coming up, and id rather lose my job than take the pain from my folks for missing that shin dig!
5. How easy is it to get out of Dubai/Abu Dhabi monthly if reqd
6. Is there a min duty pay for ultra short flights? Getting paid 3 hours for a 10 hour duty day is just not right.
7. final and biggest negative.... dir entry Commanders. BIG X on the deal breaker there. How do the current FO's feel about this. Why arent they upgraded?? Not good enough? The experience of the guys i've seen going in are much more than normal... should be proficient enough. Or is it just a matter of crew experience demographics... Take note if there are in fact company people parouzing this thread... this is for many the Deal breaker.

Thanks guys.

Orange.

[cerbus]

wizzo is a DEC, that is why he is so happy in the land of the sand. Emirates is also the best job he ever has had (says a lot of his mindset doesn't it) and he crossed the picket line in OZ to go to work for Anset. I thought the pilots in recruitment kept scum like him out of EK. No such luck for the pilot group anymore.
Well a sick based system would be you get paid for missing your trip. We will just have to disagree on that issue as well. I don't believe it is crap but a truly sick policy. I had no idea of the soft c$%& that make up EK pilots. Let's all bend over and take it where the sun don't shine because some of the world's airlines are having trouble. We don't deserve any work rules.
Why would any pilot join Emirates when the new hire knows full well how Emirates treats its employees. What they are saying is F%$# the FOs we don't care about you one bit. Buyer beware!

[Dashim]

Guys
I was seriously considering applying to Emirates, until i read this thread!

The world over, Airlines are struggling. If you've worked for a number of carriers (like me) who are only into cutting costs down as much as possible, then it seems to me that Emirates is still a good deal.

Please, can I get some real info about what it is really like working for Emirates? :)

Regards

Dashim

[Wizofoz]

Nice one cerbus (Did you mean Cerberus, the three-headed dog who guards hell? Also, AnsetT (two Ts)).

Can't hack the argument, so go for the man.

Nice.

[Lord Flashhart]

Cerbus- Stop smoking that special Shisha.

Nothing wrong with one's mindset if they feel the EK is the best job they ever had.

Nothing wrong with the way EK treats its employees. As it has been said earlier, their sick leave policy is bloody good. I know of guys who have been off for over 6 months and still being paid- no questions asked.

Orange-

There has been soooo much written about the questions you have posed, here on pprune. Try searching for it.

[mensaboy]

Fatbus you state,

''Why do you think they started the flt pay system? Most pilots here are money hungry and as soon as they are in productivity they will think twice about booking off.''

We do not get flight pay for overtime hours. Each overtime hour is at a set rate and FLT PAY is not added on top. In fact, we get paid less for each hour of overtime than we get for regular time. I have always found that to be somewhat strange.
So...flt pay was NOT started to discourage booking off when in overtime. One reason behind flt pay was to reward those who work more hours each month (logical in my opinion) but the biggest reason was to limit the higher costs associated with a higher basic salary (in other words, the remuneration given to pilots)

Regarding the other posts, the DEC policy is here to stay. The company will utilize this policy whenever it sees fit and quite frankly they don't care one bit if it disadvantages F/O's already here. They have proven that time and time again and have given no indication this will change. The only thing they care about in these regards, is the perception of 'potential' applicants regarding this policy. This is why they slip out rumours via their minions that 'the policy is not in effect' or 'no more DEC's in the near future', etc.

They only try to balance the damage caused by the perception of a few months delay (which clearly has been more than that in the past), with the subsequent decline in applicants as F/O's.

I think some of the biggest negatives for those considering EK, should be;

1- the DEC policy. I don't care how grateful, understanding and professional a pilot is, when he is sitting in the right seat at year 3, next to a DEC who jumped the queue into the left seat, it is demoralizing, frustrating and financially penalizing. To top it off, the policy is simply in place due to a 'perceived' cost savings and not for any operational benefit.

2- inflation, the associated accomodation issues and the peg to the USD. This is the money issue and obviously might be more important to some than others. (oddly enough accomodation may turn out to be the biggest factor or it might be a non-issue, depending on the luck of the draw)

3- the insane factoring of hours and subsequent decline in pilot health and increase in flight safety issues (a past illegal policy that fortunately should not be repeated, but given that EK and the GCAA are in bed together, who knows)

4- a lack of a true seniority based system. This affects time to command, lifestyle and subsequently salary. A pilot hired after you may be selected for promotion ahead of you simply because of the fleet he was initially assigned to. I suspect this policy will be further aggravated with the introduction of the A380.

The rest of the issues raised on Pprune, although important, can be tolerated. For example........ can they really start calculating our duty hours any less than they already do now? Can the dangerous roads get any worse than now? Some of these annoyances are fixed and if you feel it won't affect you dramatically, then you just have to consider the 4 issues I mentioned above.


I still think EK is a good job for many, especially those who feel their present airline is on the verge of downsizing or even folding. There are lots of good, if not great, things about EK. Job security is one. Aircraft equipment is another. Good routes and destinations, although layovers are short and per diems minimal. Experience is another excellent attribute of EK. There is no other airline that does the same flying to such varied and extensive destinations as EK.

[Dashim]

Thank you mensaboy ... that was a good and well balanced post!

[FLChamp]

well said mensaboy...couldn't agree more with you :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Why would you join an airline that does not respect its employees?

Well, then, why do you STAY at an airline that does not respect its employees?

[Kennytheking]

cerebus,

Man, I think you are the one that has lost it. Your last post was a blatant personal attack on some-one for no reason and adds no value to the debate.....something that I see is quite common in your posts. Where I come from people that have nothing constructive to contribute should rather keep quiet.

Now that you have started on about the poor slave labour here......I feel for them, however, each and every person is responsible for their own lot in life. That means that while I feel sorry for the chap, he is here working like a slave because that is the way his life has worked out. To be brutally honest, all that matters to me is how they treat me. That is all that I have control over.....anything else is futile. The fact is, they treat me well, so I am happy with my lot.

In terms of DEC, definitely a sore point, but I tell you what, I have accepted that as reality. I have assesed the potential impact on my position and readjusted my command aspirations to a realistic level and now I live with it. I am much happier for it. Funny though that one does not see as much complaining about the accelerated commands, which boils down to the same thing.

Another funny thing......at the interview they didn't tell me when I would get a command. I came here knowing that it would be an uncertain period. All I have is the confidence that it will be quicker than just about anywhere else........

[fourgolds]

Heard this on a flight the other day. Typical of the policies here and how people think around it. As we know if the cabin crew call sick up to four hours before a flight they are marked absent. Also for them to get a short notice appointment at the clinic ( not nurse advice but a doc) is difficult.

the sollution I was told by a member of the cc , "no problem I'll just go to work sick , seeing as though I am going to be marked absent anyway I will just "go sick" on the flight and when I get to Singapore ( destination) I will have the EK Doctor come and visit me in my hotel room at my leisure , and besides the Doctors in Singapore are better than Dubai and no waiting for an appointment.

Cant blame them for this sort of logic , what worries me is how sick they really might be. All we need is a diversion enroute because of a draconian policy. Keep discovering ...........

[Alconguin Crusader]

Glad to see my thread has started such a meaningful discussion about Emirates. It is about time and contrary to Arab mentality whenever the truth come out it is good for everyone.
Some pilots like Ek and some don't, I guesss it depends what you are use to and your experience. One item that I did not stress enough is the way management deals with its employees. A neccessary evil. That is a whole new way of thinking everyone has to get use to.
Our poor worker friends on the ramp really don't decide their lot in life though. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place. To say you do'nt care about them is very self centered to say the least although I agree there is not much we as pilots can do about it. I do care about them becasue that could very easily be any one of us and is very indicative of Emirates management mentality.

[Aztec Pilot]

If things are half as bad as you claim they are, why are you still there??? I know people at Emirates whose views differ significantly from your account. I realise that Emirates isn't perfect, but like it or not, it provides opportunities for several. As mentioned earlier, if you don't like, leave...Stop spreading such negative views about the company which provides you with a livelihood i.e stop biting the fingers that are feeding you!!!! "A word is enough for the wise."

[cerbus]

Axtec I see you have already joined the Arab mentality; if you don't like it leave. I guess that is real easy for you to say after all how long have you been in the sand box? Do you understand how much pilots invested in cominng to Emirates not only in time, career and money and now you and many others just want us to leave? If everyone that hated Ek left there would not be that many pilots left to fly their airplanes but Kool Aid drinkers like yourself would gladly put up with the treatement. We are trying in the only way possible at EK to make it better. After all I tried to get the union to make it better but I couldn't find the office. I tried to get the GCAA to get Emirates to stop doing their questionable activities but they were always out to lunch or at parties with AAR, TC and ED.
The views expressed here might be negative but they are the truth. The truth hurts when it comes out especially when the higher ups try so hard to suppress it. When you try and suppress the truth it ends up only hurting you in the end so why bother and fight it.

[Jet II]

The views expressed here might be negative but they are the truth.

Horse sh*t :rolleyes:

Whilst I can fully accept that you dont like it in the region to try and pretend that is the experience of everyone out here is tosh.

I'm sorry that you dont like the lifestyle, but you need to accept that not everyone shares your view - I've met far more expats who like the lifestyle than those who dont.

Yes, it is not the same as back home, but that applies to every foreign country - some things are better, some worse. But overall most people find it an enjoyable place to stay for a while.

EK could be better, but you can say that about any job - and it is only a job - I dislike some of the sh*t I have to put up with at work but then I get out of work and enjoy my time off.

If EK were really so much worse than other outfits then I'm sure that someone would actually name these other outfits and we could all b*gger off there.:ok:

[cerbus]

BA, CX, QA, AA, LH, AF and the list goes on and on. Most of the Ek pilots can not work at those airlines I know but it is worth comparing so we know how far we are behind the industry. After all we are not getting pilots from the airlines listed above just from the bankrupt airlines; morally and financially. That in itself says a lot of the package at Emirates.
enjoy you time off, after all you only get 14 days off a month.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.

[Raas767]

I beg to differ. There are plenty of pilots from AA working at EK. There is no such thing as a "good" airline job anymore. The profession has been in decline for many years now. Pick a scumbag outfit and just ride it out. It makes no difference.

[Waiting In The Weeds]

I am looking for information on the Simulator Instructor positions with Emirates/CAE, thank you.

Regards,
WITW.

[TangoUniform]

cerbus,
You keep saying, what you say is the truth. No, sir, I believe it is your point of view and your perception (which in turn is your reality). Others' reality is somewhat different and circustances from which others come from are different. Therefore, they don't waste their time on this board.

Give me an airline that will pay your salary (not flt pay) for a year while you recover from an accident, illness or whatever, not ask any questions, not have to use allocated leave to cover one's salary etc., any day.

Are things perfect here? Oh hell no. Could things be better? You bet. But if I ever meet you and you can convince me that airline abc or airline xyz is perfect without warts and blemishes, all the beer for a year is on me. But I will agree that the major downside of EK is having to live in Dubai. EK can't fix that, but you should have known or researched living in the ME before you arrived.

Bitch and moan all you want about Dubai, the heat, the infrastructure, the traffic, the laws..........But EK is like 90% of big time airlines around the world, good and bad. Union? Might have to go to a little higher paygrade than TC or MF. You might have to do some info picketing in front of Sheik Mo's villa. See where that gets you. Have fun.

[Phlap1]

Emirates can fix the problems of living in Dubai easily, with basings.
They choose not to for whatever their reasons.
I am sure most Emirates crew would accept lesser pay to
escape Dubai, particularly during HELL, I mean summer.

[Jet II]

BA, CX, QA, AA, LH, AF and the list goes on and on. Most of the Ek pilots can not work at those airlines I know but it is worth comparing so we know how far we are behind the industry.

I dont think that a few of the 'Old' majors (some of who are financially looking a bit rocky at the moment) are reflective of the 'industry'

Things change, and yes we all would like to work for one of the old state protected dinosaurs but the world changes - your more likely to get a job with an outfit like Ryanair than one of the old majors nowdays.


enjoy you time off, after all you only get 14 days off a month.
Lifestyle is what you make it, Emirates is the best practionier of slave labour in the region.

Hmm, slaves only working for just over half the month.......

I see the company will have to organise a few more floggings until morale improves :sad:

[Wizofoz]

Jet,

The funny thing is, in his zealotry, he absolutley does not see the irony in saying us poor "Slaves" ONLY get 14 days off a month!!

[7x7]

I suspect that with many hundreds of American pilots applying weekly, the people who make such decisions don't give a monkey's toss, but a basing would keep me in the Sheikh's willing employ for a few more years than the current situation is going to. And free up another villa for one of the 100(!) new pilots in temporary accommodation.

I hear another four or five 777 captains have tendered (or are about to tender) the big 'R' for the brave move to VA? That people with families are willing to leave the Sandpit for so much less money and such a woeful contract as the one I believe VA are offering and in these current uncertain times speaks volumes for the dissatisfaction some are feeling about life in said Sandpit.

In CBC a couple of days ago, I heard one very pissed off 777 pilot telling how he got back from a 9 day Auckland a week or two ago to find the police had towed his car away. (Ony in Dubai, when your (old) car takes a walk by itself, do you first suspect the cops rather than a car thief!!!) Apparently, the public street outside a local's house is "his" and no one but the local[/] can park there(!)

Unbelievable? Not in the Sandpit - [i]and he (the pilot, not the local who called to have it towed away) had to pay 310 Dirhams "discovery fee" to recover it - after a two hour wait from midnight to 2:00am, because the day shift cops didn't care to explain to him how it is that the policeman who did tow it away can do so when it's parked in a public, no limit suburban street with no signage limiting parking or reserving the spot for the local, so they told him to come back in the middle of the night to talk to the guy who could.

Who couldn't.

Keep discovering.

[kingoftheslipstream]

7x7

All the Airbus pilots at EK know about this parking regulation... :eek:

[GMDS]

Change of subject

The last two weeks we had obscured skies by sand blown in from SA .... well at least part of it may be sand. The rest is simple smog and dust from all the construction sites. Nothing new you might say. What's alarming is the many more friends and other people we know with increasing asthma and other respiratory problems. IT'S NOT THE FLU!
This problem is on a fast rise and needs to be considered by everyone wishing to join and those already installed. I believe we are facing a serious health risk here. As pilots at least we get away half of the time, but your family is stuck in the smog.

For me the monetary situation has become almost a non issue. The health of my family is way more important. To replace the thug threatening my life with something less tangible but as dangerous becomes a no option. I am really and sincerely considering to quit, even though i like the job.

THE ONLY SOLUTION WILL BE COMMUTING ROSTERS TO GET US, ESPECIALLY OUR FAMILY AWAY FROM THIS THREAT AND STILL BE ABLE TO DO THE JOB. DUBAI'S AIR BECOMES A HEALTH HAZARD.

Let me rephrase the whole thing for the EK managers:

EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF US RATHER LIKE THE JOB WITH EK, RISKING THE HEALTH OF OUR CHILDREN IS NOT AN OPTION.
YOU NEED TO INSTITUTE EITHER COMUTING ROSTERS OR BASINGS IN ORDER TO RETAIN YOUR PILOTS.

You might laugh or dismiss the whole issue now and consider me a whinger. But i guarantee you will think of this in a few months or years when your child starts coughing.

Enjoy the summer break, at least your family may go for better air.

[fourgolds]

GMDS, I hear you man. But its never going to happen. With over 30 operators closing down / scaling down since the beginning of the year. There are plently of drivers to replace us. This is becoming a reality. The only way to change it is with your feet. But is it really a good time to move ? Have friends in corporate month on month off earning Dhs 56000 a month flying very nice kit. But how secure in the present times ?

I guess I sound a little insecure , I think a little more realistic. Yes we live in a dump. Make the move or wait , the pendulum always swings back.

Mates in Hong Kong also very unhappy about pollution , and as for the lads in China well. I guess CX do have basings , but only much later on though and by the time you would be able to hold one you will have 10 years wide body command at EK. Its all swings and roundabouts.

My personal frustrations are
1)Buying bloody appliances with plugs that dont fit the sockets , always have to buy a bloody cheap adaptor that also hardly works !!
2) Traffic
3)Trying to contact anyone in the office , the phone just rings and rings or is constantly engaged. Not too mention the automated answering system. Although I would love to Shag Evita ( love her voice)
4)Traffic
5)The crew sandwiches ( please super size me)
6)Traffic
7)The bloody beeping Caterpillar construction vehicles.
8)Traffic
9)Trying to get a Dentist appointment at EK clinic
10)Traffic
11)Asking the Audi Driver " are we picking up anyone else ? " and getting the perverbial Indian headshake to say NO , only to do a tour of the construction site to pick up someone else.
12)Traffic
13)No table on the 777 !!!
14)Getting the rosters so late. Impossible to plan anything toward month end/beginning.
15) Traffic
16)Big Black Landcruisers ( I wish they would meet head on with the Caterpillar)
17) aah F%^& it I'll ramble on all night.

Try see the humour in it. Have a friend 38 just lost his medical , 2 kids.
Could be worse.

[Wiley]

I'm sure someone will send the two posts about her voice on to Sandra (Evita). (Have to say, I haven't been in the Sandpit long enough to find that accent particularly attractive either.)

For the last few months, I am also suffering with a constant cough and what could only be described as a wheeze - which magically goes away a day of so after I leave Dubai.

Can I add my vote to basings, Tim? Save you a fortune in accommodation costs. (And, I think I could safely say, another fortune in not having to train the replacements for many who will leave only because they no longer want their families living in the Dustbow... the Sandpit.)

It would be interesting to learn just how many EK pilots now live alone in their large villas.

[Orangewing]

Im with fourgolds on the subject of shagging Evita, for sure a very sexy voice.. Yarpie perhaps? Besides, who said you had to wake up with her..?!! :E

[vlatkomk]

Please, will somebody post pictures of these damn "large villas"? :) Or post any random pictures that would depict "Life in Dubai". Thanks!

How long does the company pay for housing? Temporary or for the duration?

[halas]

Which one on EVITA would you like to shag?

"Welcome to EVITA. Please enter your steffff numbaa" (as said before- 50m rough road accent)

or....

"to collect your roster changessss...." (Baritone)

or

"It's a layover trip" (in Tagalog dialect)

fourgolds

Buying a UK plug and installing it at the end of the chord is not difficult. Just ask all the fried Jinglies around town.

You eat crew sandwiches?

The rest sounds like you need ear-plugs, a driver and a Panadol with a good lie down.

halas

[Dropp the Pilot]

Perhaps there is the core of a new thread beginning to show here.

I am normally found among the Dubai-boosters but I have become seriously concerned about air quality recently. I have never before had any respiratory difficulities but I don't think I've drawn a normal breath for the last three months. There seems to be an uninterrupted series of coughing spells, congestion and throat irritation.

It would be interesting to know how many of us have the same experience.

Nothing you can do about it of course, but in my case it begins to tarnish the golden handcuffs to the degree that I can see departing here much sooner than I thought, for that reason alone.

[Marooned]

As high pressure takes over for the summer various toxic gases are trapped and circulating all around us:

Gas venting from the rigs offshore, concrete dust, gases released from the Aluminium smelting works next to the Marina, exhaust fumes from the gas guzzlers on the roads...

I try and get my kids out to exercise but the air is insipid and they look anemic. A few weeks back at home and some fresh air and they get some colour back... and then there's that Dubai cough we all have and the clinic know all too well.

The long term effects of all this crap in the air will not be known until... the longer term. Until then it doesn't take a genius to realise the detrimental effects this recirculated air will have on us and more importantly our kids. Rest assured there will be no study made public which lets us know what is in the air and the effects it will have.

BASINGS: Surely it must offer more efficiency than basing all us all in this pit. I cannot believe HRH TC still is so bloody minded that he will keep us all here regardless of the cost. Despite evidence to the contrary he is the main, perhaps only obstacle to giving us an option many of us so dearly want... a way out of here.

[Wiley]

Bad outside air is relatively new, but the air inside, with aircon on for most of the year, has always been a problem. You don't even want to imagine what's in the ducting of your house. My daughter always went down with a crook throat within 24 hours of coming home from OS.

[fo4ever]

In regards to the air inside your house there is only one thing to do.

CLEAN THE AIRCON ONCE EVERY 6 MONTHS.

If you want it done by a man who knows what he is doing then call:

GERMAN STAR at 050 2960374

It will cost you 1500 - 2000 but t is worth it.

[The Real Pink Baron]

Got to go, (cough cough) 23 years, 17 with hemaroids( cough cough)
Bye all, great flying with you!!!
Keep breathing.

[fourgolds]

No gents the Evita to shag is " You have day off on reserve !" , thats my Gal.

[nolimitholdem]

And what the hell does Evita want to know my religion or condition of my feet for?!?

"To report Sikh or feet"?!

I don't get it!! :confused:

[Orangewing]

Yeah, thats the evita I want to goose - the one who says "welcome to eeeveeta". Phwoarr, got to love it....:E:E

[40&80]

Interesting...this Gulf throats story....I did 26years at GF and the Gulf throats started after the first Gulf War for me... as a pilot.
At age 60 termination I had been on 9 course of anti biotic for them in the last 19months.
Retired for 8 years now in the UK Norfolk countryside I have not had a sore throat...but I did get my Gf rostering heart attack in year 4...and please note
I am one of the very few last man standing of my GF group at age 68!
Looking at your sectors in EK I think (know) there is a lot of premature mortality being rostered into you guys...you certainly will not need a big pension...but lots of life insurance if you want to provide for the family.
Have fun..know your numbers and their implications for your BP and cholesterol and never work on a rest day.

[cerbus]

How close to the truth you are 40. Couldn't have said it better myself or for the rest of Dubai.

[Wizofoz]

cerbus, if you are really this bitter and miserable, SURLEY you must be looking for another job?

Plenty around!!

[ironbutt57]

Face it the job involves sitting in an aluminum tube.flying 80% or more of the speed of sound, surrounded by electrical wires (and God knows what else) maintained by.:hmm:..nevermind..with absolutely no normal body rest cycles,.breathing recycled dry air, being irradiated by the sun, eating food whose sanitary qualities are at best questionable.:yuk:..must I go on??? and I love it:ok:....but it does not contribute to longevity for sure..:uhoh:

[Marooned]

40&80, a lesson for us all.

I have to laugh when I hear of retirements at 65. With our rosters, ER/ULRs etc, getting past 60 would be a bonus... G-EAOU!