Can you justify flying?

[ACARS]

Is anyone else finding it hard to justify the cost of private flying nowadays? I went to a new school last week and was hit with a charge of £185 per hour plus landing fee for a C172 and instructor.

Personally I have the money to complete my PPL, but is there an end to these increased costs?

I am seriously considering hour building in US.

[PompeyPaul]

Unfortunately oil in the world is running out. Couple that with increased demand from developing nations as well as no end in sight to the violence in the middle east and oil price is only going one way.

Hence the spiraling cost of aviation is here to stay.

[IO540]

I am seriously considering hour building in US

Why are you flying at all?

If you want to fill up a logbook, go to Arizona and fly backwards and forwards.

If you want to fill a logbook in the UK, rent a DA40 and fly it backwards and forwards. Or perhaps a C150 or similar; probably will be cheaper overall.

But if you want to fly for a purpose, flying has never been dirt cheap, relative to wages. And at the higher end of the capability spectrum (say, IFR touring) it is certainly more expensive than a few years ago.

[10069]

if u want to make your flying cheaper try a non-equity group (google it) some even allow you to train in there aircraft. Most are based up North though so it depends where you live really as they seem to be scarce down south here:}

[basil faulty]

Yes I can, I have spent thousands over the years, I am now a skipper with the orange lot and I also have a share in a plane in the SE. If you have to ask that question then you should not be doing it. It depends on why you are asking the question, do you have more important things going on? Like starting a family, or starting a business, then yes perhaps, but if like me, my monthy flying bill is less than £200.00, then why not, I love every minute of it. Yes fuel cost's will rise but in time they will become more stable. If they don't then I am out of a job and the whole of the western world is in deep trouble!! My advice is go and join a group, you will get a cracking deal at the moment, not only will you fly a bit more cheaply but you will meet some cracking people and maybe find a brill social circle and depending on what you buy you could be a shareholder in a lovely bit of kit, our aeroplane was built in 69 is semi aerobatic and cruises along at around 140IAS on 35 Ltrs an hour, if you guess what it is I will buy you a pint!!

[wsmempson]

sounds like a fuji?

[Oldpilot55]

Who told you oil was running out?

There is plenty there..that's my job...OPEC control the output and thus the price. Saudi used to be able to balance the price to please the USA but they seem less willing to do that anymore. That of course is a huge simplification of world economics, but trust me their will be oil when your grandchildren die. It will be found deeper and deeper and more expensive to recover.the industry is manic at the moment.

A US gallon of Avgas is about $4...tax is the problem in the UK. A gallon of road gas in the States is $3 and $10 in the UK..the difference is tax. UK taxes are the worst in the world.

[IFMU]

Car gas in my neck of the woods is pushing past $4 USD, and avgas is $5.50-$6.00 USD. For us folks in the states, it's going crazy.

I cannot justify flying for the money I spend. Nor can I justify the cost it takes to have and raise children. Financially, it's a losing proposition. But, life is not all about money. I would not trade all the money in the world for my kids. And I would not rather have the money I spend flying in the bank, and sit around miserable.

-- IFMU

[BackPacker]

Can you justify flying?

No I can't.

Neither can I justify going out for dinner, playing sports, spending time here on proon, going on vacation and a lot of other things.

But that's the beauty of "free time" and "disposable income". You don't have to justify what you do with it. Just spend it any way you see fit.

Of course flying is rather expensive compared to a lot of other possible hobbies and I have promised myself that if I cannot find the money, or the time, or the motivation to spend at least 12 hours each year flying, I will quit and not regret it.

[IO540]

Or you could fly RHS and keep current that way.

Otherwise, I agree. Most things in life are not financially justifiable. Like I've said before, if you work all the time, never go out, have no friends, keep your trousers zipped up (or wear two johnnies if you can't), have no relationships (easy to achieve if you have no friends and never go out - except in Austria) then you will die very rich. I reckon anybody, no matter how thick, will be worth millions when they die, if they work on it.

[pulse1]

It depends, to whom are you justifying it?

I gave up flying 34 years ago because, with a young family and rapidly rising fuel prices, I couldn't justify it to myself.

Then, after 23 years of aching everytime I saw an aeroplane fly over, I started again, with great encouragement from my wife and family. I'm now eating into the family inheritance at a rate which, if divided amongst the five of them, would make very little difference to their lives. And they actually seem to enjoy having and old Dad who can take them and their friends flying occasionally.

So, it provides immense enjoyment to me, some enjoyment to those close to me, and I will continue as long as it does both of those things or until the money or health runs out (thanks to the NPPL that should last a bit longer).

One of several benefits of being old is that there is no point in saving money for the future. You haven't got one.

[Rod1]

“140IAS on 35 Ltrs an hour, if you guess what it is I will buy you a pint!!”

A Falco?

If you want to fly something less expensive with some caricter try a Jodel. You can get a share in one for around £3k, £35 per month, £35 per hour wet.

Rod1

[BeechNut]

Up here in my part of Canada, the cheapest avgas (100LL) is running about $1.60 per liter (consider US and CDN $ about par now). That's over $6 per US gallon, $7.27 per imperial gallon.

Road gas (regular... sadly my car uses premium) goes for $1.35 per liter ($5.11 per USG). It cost me $91.20 to fill up my Passat on Sunday, with premium at $1.43 per liter. My Beech Sundowner holds 227 liters... $363 worth of fuel.

I fly just as often as before though. Just not as long :(

And with other chaps to help slice the expenses.

[Monocock]

If you feel you need to justify a leisure activity then you shouldn't be doing it.

End of.

[snapper41]

with some caricter


With some what??

Can I justify flying? Yes I can - because I can, and I enjoy it. So there.

[Whirlybird]

Can I justify flying?

Yes, because it's my money and that's how I choose to spend it. What other justification is needed?

[S-Works]

I gave up justifying anything a long time ago. You only live once.

[scooter boy]

"You only live once"

my sentiments entirely...

SB

[lc_aerobatics]

built in 69 is semi aerobatic and cruises along at around 140IAS on 35 Ltrs an hour, if you guess what it is I will buy you a pint!!

I guess it is Moonsoon based at Biggin :)

[mothflyer]

Its always been a luxury (and I admit it cost a lot to get here), but hey its a great way to get away from it all and personally I find it the most relaxing time.

(Piper Cub with the door open on a sunny evening.... my idea of heaven). :ok:

[Wessex Boy]

£185/hour does sound steep, I would look for a different School!

Coming back to Flying after 18 years away, it is comparatively much cheaper, I was paying £65-85/hour back in 1986, I pay £103/hour to rent a Warrior now (£135 dual)

[Spruit]

This thread was summed up a while ago by BoseX with "You only live once" and that's absolutely correct!

If you love and enjoy every second of what your doing then that's justification enough!

Spru!

[lauchiemb]

It may be more expensive to fly than it was last year, but my business makes more than it did last year, So I cannot complain.

[Dysonsphere]

No but im with Bose X as well

[gcardinal]

I, too, share the sentiment with Bose-X.

Maybe a better question would be this:

Given reasonable opportunity, how can you justify NOT flying?

Cheers

[Mike Cross]

My flying costs me 35 quid an hour wet plus 45 quid a month, I can certainly justify that.

Like all things it's what you personally see as value, which is an entirely different thing to price.

[Lister Noble]

I can assure you that it is a lot,lot cheaper than sailing a small cruiser or low key amateur motorsport.
You need to join a decent group,we pay £40/hr all in plus around £200-300 per year according to finances.
The aircraft is one year older than me,but it is a WW2 military Cub still in US Army colours and a delight to fly!
Lister
Now an old age pensioner,can't wait to get the cheque,should pay for all my flying.;);)

[betterfromabove]

Agree with OldPilot....as it's my job too...

There's been "55 years" left of oil for the last 40 years. As we reach deeper & further offshore, use creative new technology & the high selling price encourages more expensive Exploration, we shall have plenty left around for a while yet. As a leading OPEC minister said only this week, the current price has nothing to do the law of supply & demand, more to do with sporadic geo-politics.

The complex new web of relations between one out-going super-power, one ex-super-power & two new ones will certainly make the trends as difficult to predict as ever, but oil is not running out so quickly technology cannot keep up.

And we're not even talking about the 250 years of natural gas or the increasing use of renewables here...

As any Earth Scientist will tell you, it's the energy usage, stupid, not the supply that's the issue.

As for why fly...?? What other activity can guarantee to humble you and intrigue you in equal measure every time you experience it...?!?

BFA

[civil aviation]

Is the probability of you running out of money much higher than that of us running out of oil.:confused:
BTW the smug sods from North America should understand that they are upsetting people with '$5 Avgas' when $15 will be melting plastic in UK.

[Piper.Classique]

I can't justify flying, but then I don't have to, don't want to, and won't.

[mark sicknote]

I fly with a group of mates. Sometimes we share to cut costs. Sometimes we take the whole "squadron" out on maneuvers.

If we log one hour, we talk about the trip hours before and hours afterwards...sometimes weeks.

For me that makes flying a cheap pastime.


Best,

Sicknote:ok:

[civil aviation]

Oil up by another $5 today...
You don't have to be rich but it helps.

[shortstripper]

What price sanity?

My justification is that if I didn't fly I'd go mad! I'm stuck on this bl@@dy farm pretty much 24/7 seven days a week. I live here and work here and my aeroplane is my only real escape (how sad is that? lol).

Anyway, even though my hourly rate has gone up by nearly 10% in the last year, it's still less than £25/hr :D

It ain't sexy, it's not that good for touring .... but it is flying and I can afford it! :p

SS

[Tipperary]

Like many on here, I too have found financing my hour building a tad onerous... but, even though my career is no. 1, few experiences compare to sailing through the clouds. It's just an ubercool way to spend a day.

Of course, there are other incredible experiences we can pursue...try shark diving in the Great Barrier Reef (a whole new take on aerodynamics!)... but the degree of fascination has to do with the individual. You could say, the intrigue is in the eye of the beholder.

Pursuing our interests is just as important as completing our education... because what stimulates our mind, defines who we are.

It's all about perspective, so even if there are times when I can't really afford it; I shalln't ask myself if it's worth it. The day I have to ask myself that question, will be the day I know it no longer is ;)

[dont overfil]

Justify it to who? To myself? Are you suggesting I'm schitzo?
Who said that?

[OnePercenter]

I would like to travel around in a huge Yacht full of Playmates, I can't afford it...nor could I justify divorcing my wife to go get it....But if I really wanted it, then I would figure out a way to get it.Where there is a will there is a way...

[Tipperary]

... travel around in a huge Yacht full of Playmates? So, at 65, that sums up what you'd really like to do?! :O

Haaaa! What a post!

... like I said, what stimulates our mind, defines who we are!!!

[shortstripper]

And you wouldn't??? :eek:

I'm worried for you man!

[Tipperary]

... maybe I'm not into women...

[shortstripper]

Oh right :uhoh: ..... errrrmmmm, sorry! ;)

SS

[Tipperary]

... because I'm a GIRL! :)

[S-Works]

... because I'm a GIRL!

Can I have your number.......:ok:

Wanted sexy(female) Malibu co-pilot.

[Tipperary]

... well I do believe I'm blushing :\; fraid I'm already spoken for tho'!

Have a super time in Malibu, Boze-X! Good spot for free diving! :}

[er340790]

The initial response to dramatically higher fuel costs for most private owners, flying purely for fun, is to fly less often or not as far.

In my part of the world, most private owners are in their 40s - 60s. After a year of high AvGas prices, an increasing number who were flying less often are now biting the bullet selling their aircraft / shares in aircraft.

Don't forget also that many private aircraft are bought as luxury toys when times are good. When the loan co repo man is at the door, in most cases, it is the boats and planes that go before the roof over your head.

The upshot is that prices were already softening. The dramatic drop in the US$ has already made US-sourced aircraft over 40% cheaper in Canada. The glut of aircraft now coming on to the US used market is killing prices.

As an example; two guys I know in Mn are selling their 5-year old Piper Cub on floats. One had a loan on it he can no longer repay and the second can't afford to buy the other's share out. Asking price was C$75k. Aircraft has only flown 50 hours in the last year. They then reduced it to C$65k and still had no takers. If oil stays above $135/barrel, I reckon they'll acccept $50k soon.

The oil price, like dot-coms and housing is going through a price bubble. It will calm down. The upshot?

THIS COULD BE THE CHEAPEST TIME IN A GENERATION TO BUY YOUR OWN AIRCRAFT.......:E

[youngskywalker]

Bose-x that is disgraceful behaviour from a married man, and you wouldnt give me your daughters number either...:=

I hope you have a super time in 'malibu' too! :\

[S-Works]

I have decided to become French.

I do indeed have a good time in Malibu!!

[shortstripper]

because I'm a GIRL!

Trust me to overlook the obvious and make myself look stupid! :\ Story of my life really :ugh:

SS :ok: