Vacuum Pump Failure + Infringment

[Essel]

Yesterday I infringed a Class D zone by 300' and 2nm. I was talking to a LARS and squawking mode C, they informed me I had infringed in no uncertain terms. Although not requested to do so, I contacted the LARS unit upon landing and explained myself.

Shortly prior to the infringement the AH toppled so violently it caught my attention. I glanced down at the suction and sure enough was indicating zero.

I headed directly for the overhead of the nearest as I had a first time passenger with me and didn't want to take any chances in case there was an associated engine problem. By doing that I infringed by 2 miles, and I immediately got called by the LARS controller and told I had infringed.

I didn't declare a PAN as it seemed overkill and did'nt want to alarm my passenger. However, in light of the infringement part of me wishes I had.

I called the LARS upon landing and explained the vacuum failure.

Thoughts/ suggestions on what I could have done better / reassurances etc gratefully received!

[SwanFIS]

Controllers and FISOs are encouraged to file a report so that the scale of the infringement problem can be determined. NATS just loves statistics.

Unless you are a repeat offender or the incident caused major mayhem / safety concerns you are very unlikely to be penalised. The fact that you contacted the ATC unit on landing also goes in your favour as it shows that you acknowledge that it happened and that you wanted to explain and hopefully learn from the experience.

Tick it off in your book of "lifes experiences" and enjoy your flying.:ok:

[homeguard]

Essel

The CAA will almost certainly write to you asking for your report on the incident. That is your opportunity to explain why things went wrong and also remember it is your opportunity to explain what you have/are doing to prevent such a circumstance happening again.

You should consider; What could you have done better to prevent the airspace infringement following the vacumn failure? What were the actual consequences of the vacumn failure that would have had a bearing on your flight? What checks should you have carried out? Should you have informed the FIS, that you were receiving at the time, of your intention to divert? What benefits could you have availed yourself of by informing the FIS of your problem and intentions? You are quite right that a pan would most likely have not been necessary but a problem shared is a problem halved. In other words what were the real priorities at the time and how would you deal with a similar situation next time!

The CAA will be content to know that you have thought the events through and have resolved the matter yourself. The CAA current policy is NOT to proscecute when the pilot clearly has simply made a mistake and that you, the pilot, also wish to learn from the event.

[S-Works]

Thoughts/ suggestions on what I could have done better / reassurances etc gratefully received!


I assume you had no GPS unit? This would have given you appropriate situational awareness.

Edit to include the original request for what he could have done better as it seems there are those that found my post unhelpful. I answered the question.

[effortless]

Homeguard's response is an excellent answer to your question. I wish that more respondents were capable of such clarity and usefulness.

[Mariner9]

What was wrong with Bose's GPS comments then? ;)

[Essel]

Thanks for your post homeguard. I've replayed the flight 50times already, including during my sleep, and you are right I should informed the LARS unit, infact my first instinct was to, but whilst I was waiting to get a word (frequency was extremely busy) I had second thoughts as time was ticking away and I wanted to focus on getting to the overhead of the nearest, plan the rejoin (if req), watch the T&Ps more than usual, and too not alarm my passenger.

Do the CAA write to all infringers by default?

BoseX: My GPS, with CAA charts on, had packed in. It was stuck in a reboot loop. I am not kidding. Not one of my best flying days.

[OpenCirrus619]

I know some are going to have fairly strong views about the organisation concerned :eek: but here goes:

I would recommend everyone joins AOPA (UK) (http://www.aopa.co.uk/). It has the following helpful advice on the back of the membership card:
If you are involved in any incident which requires a statement, wait 24 hours before giving one, but contact AOPA as soon as possible.
That, along with the advice that will follow from their Legal Advice Line, may save both your licence and bank balance (often the CAAs expenses in investigating can run to multiples of the fines imposed).

In addition AOPA does valuable work representing GA:

Against the interests of the big commercial players in areas such as Mode S
With the govt. / local councils as they try and build on the "brown field" sites, so conveniently located close to many towns


I know there are other organisations doing similar good works, such as the LAA and BGA, but AOPA seems (to me at least) to be the most appropriate for my powered flying. (I am also a member of the BGA).

OC619

P.S. If anyone wants a debate about "should AOPA / BGA / LAA / ... combine" may I suggest a new thread?

[Essel]

BoseX. Good point - I did have a GPS unit. In fact it was brand new and on its maiden voyage. Unfortunately, it had become stuck in a reboot loop and was useless.

Just wasn't my day.:(

[effortless]

What was wrong with Bose's GPS comments then?

Nothing, I just thought that homeguard's was an example for us all to aspire to.:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Don’t worry - as others have said the CAA will not take further action beyond possibly writing to you.

You decided that the failure could have been indicative of something more serious.

Given that was so, a diversion was in order.

Aviate, navigate, communicate - forget all that old tosh.

It may work went you are mid channel or in some desolate and remote region of the UK but not surrounded by busy CAS.

The effect of the words “I have a small problem” is amazing if you are reluctant to call a pan.

Of course ensure you have the problem under control, but if you are “panicking” even a bit a cool head on the ground is worth its weight in gold. Immediately, they are expecting you to do something “stupid” like divert through CAS without thinking about a clearance because it just happens to be the shortest route. Moreover it gives them something a bit more interesting to do for the day.

It may be decried by some but it is much easier to have someone helping with the navigation with a 20"screen in front of them whilst you are managing the problem.

[flyme273]

On most light aircraft the vacuum also powers the Direction Indicator - did this give any problems. Loss of direction could place more gravity on the matter.

flyme

[homeguard]

Aviate, navigate & communicate is most certainly not 'old tosh'. For those three simple words give the best guidance to any pilot when faced with a dilemma, whatever the experience level.

Aviate - will include; completing FREDA/LIFE (whatever) checks. Identification of the fault and isolation of the problem. Evaluation of the consequences of the failure; requirement to fly on a limited panel and by reference to the 'E' type compass for heading.

Navigate - will include; knowing position, deciding on the plan of any action required: divert or to continue with the flight as planned.

Communicate - Inform air traffic. In this instance the level of assistance required will depend on the factors identified during the first phaze and the complexity of the second. In the case of a vacumn pump failure the conditions may determine. Should the visibilty be very poor and the pilot is without a discernible horizon, perhaps surrounded by open seas, high terrain or controlled airspace then an 'urgency' call should be made immediately as it also should be if you find yourself overwhelmed in whatever conditions. However Essel appears not to be concerned about any of these factors. Simply having informed the FIS would have been all that was needed and would most likely have avoided the resulting infringement.

ATC, like we do, take their role seriously and are rarely bored. They would not have considered any call from Essel as entertainment but would have done their best to help. That is their job!

[BackPacker]

ATC, like we do, take their role seriously and are rarely bored. They would not have considered any call from Essel as entertainment but would have done their best to help. That is their job!

Just wondering. How much of 'Aircraft Technical' subjects do ATC get in their training? If a pilot calls "I have a small problem: I have a vacuum pump failure" would ATC be able to infer that this, most likely, means that the DI does not work and that turning onto a heading becomes far more complex, particularly for a low-hours PPL?

If ATC would have known that the DI was inop and turning onto/maintaining a heading was more complicated, they probably would have warned before the infringement happened.

Another mitigating circumstance might be the following: The indication that something was wrong with the vacuum was the AH toppling. Now the AH and DI both need gyros to work, and both gyros will take a few minutes to spin down once the vacuum is removed but they will not start indicating wrongly at the same time. It might just be so that the DI was already showing a serious error before the AH toppled, and that the OP was way off course by then already.

Essel, you said you headed directly for the overhead of the nearest airfield. How did you navigate there? Was that all visual, DR, GPS or what? Since you infringed by two miles, I am lead to believe that you were quite a ways off from that field and possibly used the DI to navigate to that field. Did you realise that your DI would be off, did you use the compass, properly?

On the other hand, since this is officially an ongoing investigation, it might be best not to comment too much on this, right now.

[Fuji Abound]

Aviate, navigate & communicate is most certainly not 'old tosh'. For those three simple words give the best guidance to any pilot when faced with a dilemma, whatever the experience level.

Homeguard

Have it your own way.

I was giving a different take on the subject. They may be three simple words but are still worth thinking about.

In this case the problem was under control but perhaps due to the stress of the situation the "navigate" didnt quite work.

A short communication would have prevented the infringement or at least AT would have been ready for it.

Aviate, navigate, communicate almost goes back to the dawn of flying when AT werent going to be much help and the navigation was down to the pilot.

Now that is not to say if you are comfortable with the situation iit is still a good "rule" to follow .. .. .. but if you realise you are surrounded by CAS and want to divert as quickly as possible whlst conscious you might be about to bust a corner of the CAS far better to annouce you have a problem .. .. .. and get some hlep with the navigation.

Worth thinking about perhaps?

[Mariner9]

Dead easy to say when you are on the ground, but loss of a vacuum pump on a CAVOK day should be a non-event.

However, when faced with any problem, its bound to take up some or all of your spare mental capacity, so any help you can get from any source can only be beneficial.

If you read the quarterly safety bulletins you'll see loads of MOR's filed for airspace busts but the recent CAA prosecutions (AFAICR) were only for only 2 or 3 of the most serious busts, so I wouldn't worry unduly on that score.

[PPRuNe Radar]

The seriousness of the failure would also depend on whether the flight was being conducted in VFR in good VMC conditions (no reason not to be a non event since you are looking out of the window), VFR in marginal VMC conditions (requiring more dependence on instruments than a CAVOK flight to assist with navigation), or being conducted under IFR.

The CAA will offer appropriate advice.

[flyme273]

Essel, per my previous post per possible failure of the DI, Backpacker has done an excellent explanation.

You may have had prior failure (or simultaneous) failure of the DI and not known it (normally no red flags on these instruments). In failure mode the DI card would simply not turn or it could displace say 90 degrees and then fail to turn any more (I've had such a failure).

You should consider if your navigation was unknowningly degraded by such a failure.

Anyway a safe return to the ground. (I note you did not have operational GPS, personally I wouldn't start rebooting it in the air - too distracting).

flyme

[G SXTY]

Have experienced suction pump failure only once. First the DG stopped doing it's stuff, then after a few moments the AI gently wound down and fell over.

Fortunately I was in my local area with >40 miles visibility, but it was still quite disconcerting. If I'd been unfamiliar with the area or the wx had been less than perfect, I would almost certainly have declared a PAN. Much better to get help (and lots of it) early on, rather than push on.

Given your circumstances I'd be very surprised if the CAA took a harsh view of the event.

[A and C]

If you had not picked up on the vac pump failure as it happend there will be a time period in which the gyros are running down but failure is not evident.

It could well be that the Infringmnt was due to unreliable heading information that would have happend after the vac pump failre but before the AI toppeled and you realised that the vac pump had failed.

[SNS3Guppy]

Essel,

First of all, you appear to have done a good job in recognizing and dealing with the problem. You already indicated that you did not know exactly what had happened, or what else may have happened, and made a good, conservative decision to land and sort it out.

Some discussion has been made regarding the basics of flying. Perhaps the focusing too much on the failed vacum and gyro were a key that got you into trouble. Fixating on an instrument or a single problem is one of the biggest problems any of us face. Aviate first; fly the airplane. That means heading and altitude. Where a precessing instrument might tend to lead one astray, I recommend carrying post-it notes; the sticky back notes that you can put over an instrument in a pinch to keep it from enticing you to turn or climb or dive.

Therefore, aviate. Fly the airplane.

Next, you already recognized that you should have spoken with control. Confess; tell them you have a problem, tell them what your intentions are. While vacum pumps do fail with alarming regularity, vacum pumps are driven by the engine accessory section, which is full of small parts and gears which on occasion also fail. When they fail they send parts throughout the engine, and the upshot is an engine failure soon thereafter due to oil starvation or broken parts going places they shouldn't. So yes, you did have a problem which on the face is very minor, but could be a sign of something much bigger. Don't hesitate to not only tell air traffic control what your problem is, but the nature of any assistance you require, and tell ATC what you intend to do. That's the communicate part.

The third part is navigate. The heading failed, but the magnetic compass should be a regular part of your scan (as you check for precession of the directional gyro), and therefore something you're accustomed to using all the time. However, if you have any concerns about navigation at all, don't be afraid to ask ATC for vectors or guidance at the same time you tell them your problem and state your intentions.

Flying is about decisions and judgement, and that comes from experience, which in turn comes from evaluating decisions and judgement. Ideally it gets a little better each time. Today's event is nothing more than a step in that process. Fly safe.

[Fuji Abound]

SNS3GUPPY

Aviate, communicate, navigate - you will be in trouble, but a well explained post never the less of the point I was seeking to make earlier.

I think a vac failure in IMC with only an electric turn and slip is nearly always going to be a least a pan.

[SNS3Guppy]

Aviate, navigate, communicate - you will be in trouble,


Not sure what you're trying to say here, but there's no other way. You must aviate first. Before you take responsibility for your family, before you pay your tax, before your religous duties. If you fail to aviate, you won't be coming home to make love love to your wife, kiss your children, divide your finances, or attend church. Fly first, everything else later.

Navigate goes hand in hand with flying the airplane.

Communication is always second to flying the airplane, second to remaining oriented, knowing where you are, and making the airplane go where ou want it to be. Fly first, talk later. There's little point in talking if you haven't made inroads in flying the airplane. Priorities.

You will be in trouble if you don't aviate, navigate, and communicate. Always.

[Essel]

"vacum pumps are driven by the engine accessory section, which is full of small parts and gears which on occasion also fail. When they fail they send parts throughout the engine, and the upshot is an engine failure soon thereafter due to oil starvation or broken parts going places they shouldn't."

Exactly what was going through my mind. By sheer and weird coincidence I had been reading about such an incident, and so was concerned to get overhead the nearest asap. If I hadn't climbed slightly (300ft) as I approached the overhead I wouldnt be writing this post now, of course. If was hardly no time between infringing and uninfringing (thanks to LARS informing me).

re: the DI. Yes, I was also aware that could no longer be accurate.

Thanks to all the other posters too. What a fantastic resource this is.

Also reasuring to know, as an airline passenger, how good the UK ATC system. Hats off to them.

More posts very welcome btw.
:ok:

[Essel]

One further point..and this is not in any way an excuse...but the LARS freq was very very busy...it was solid transmissions. Waiting for a silence and pouncing on it would have been a task in itself...coupled with not wanting to alarm the passenger I chose to concentrate on getting tothe overhead and watching the T&Ps.

I could have switched to 121.5 of course, in hindsight. But again, I was only 2 or 3 mins away from the overhead.

I wasn't panicking or such like, I chose my priority (getting tarmac beneath me until I was happy the engine was operating okay) and saw it through...my vertical navigation (in terms of airspace, not terrain!) dropped off my attention for a short while - unfortunately.

[Essel]

you won't be coming home to make love love to your wife

The only thing I wanted to make love to after that flight was a bottle of Corona thanks very much!

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate was drilled into me right from the start...and it did guide my actions. But I suppose it does depend to some extent on the nature of the problem. Communciating can help you aviate and navigate better of course if the nature of the problem is not directly affecting the handling of the aircraft.....which was my scenario...however I was also concerned it could get nastier if the engine had been affected.

[SNS3Guppy]

Essel,

In practice the basics tend to get done at the same time, of course. However, particularly when faced with an abnormal situation, it's crucial to remember which things take priority.

One of the flying jobs I've done for many years is aerial firefighting. Several years ago we had a pilot die at a training school. The school involved complex scenarios on the ground, and then in the air, with simulated fires, diversions, airspace issues, etc. One of the things required during the exercise was to address a diversion to a new fire, and that required programming radios and fixing new coordinates.

These particular airplanes aren't very stable, and require that the pilot be hands-on at all times. The radios, particularly the FM radios, require up to fifteen steps to change the frequency; they require a lot of attention in some cases. The same may be true for navigating to the fire, particularly when it's in an area of a thousand square miles of rough country and mountainous terrain, in strong winds and turbulence, and in the case of the school, no smoke available to actually see the fire (simulated fire with panel markers on the ground). The pilot died tuning his radio.

All the pilots doing that work are good hands-on stick and rudder aviators. Very experienced pilots. All with an ag/crop dusting background, as well as other types of flying. Considerable mountain experience, a lot of flying close to obstcles, formation flying, flying in low visibility or instrument conditions, etc. However, this pilot left the fire area and entered an orbit so he could program his radio and set up a diversion to the new coordinates. He became preoccupied with the need to get this done and get on his way, and in the process stalled and spun. He was killed on impact and the wreckage, having descended vertically, was spread over a very small area. A fire broke out, but was quickly extinguished by the water in the drop tank.

This was a very good example of placing navigation and communication ahead of aviating. A month later another pilot from the same company died on a fire as he was busy talking on the radio during a drop run at low altitude, and missed a single power line stretched through the brush across a hillside. He caught one landing gear and struck the ground, where he exploded. All three, aviating, navigating, and communicating are often done nearly simultaneously; we think, talk and do at the same time. However, there are times when it's best to separate the functions; flying the airplane should take priority at all times and take precedence over all other functions. It sounds so obvious, but we could spend hours and pages after pages listing the fatalities that have resulted from not doing this very thing. It only takes once, after all.

[fisbangwollop]

Never be affraid to call Pan or even mayday if you have any concerns what ever and you feel the situation warrants it,especially on a busy frequncy when it is difficult to get a word in you will be amazed how those words "Pan Pan" captivate the controller!!! It certainally grabs my attention!! You will never get reprimanded for over reacting with ATC and one day it may save your life!!!:ok:

[Essel]

SNS3Guppy (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=121895) : A very sobering but informative post.:ok:

The obviously frightening thing about your story is how such a basic and tragic mistake can occur to even the best. Interpolating that back to my amateur flying leaves me feeling very vulnerable indeed.

Just out of interest I would be very curious to know how you feel as a pilot after completing such missions successfully as you unplug...relief or elation?

[LateFinals]

Interesting thread. There is a lot of discussion "on the ground" about the correct actions, but until it happens for real who know's what one will do.

I had a vacumn pump fail on a 172 a couple of years ago coasting out to
Alderney just approaching the Isle of Wight. I didn't declare a Pan but requested an immediate divert and explained why to Southampton who were controlling us at the time. I have to say the calm ATC voice really helped. I was above cloud at about 3000 feet. Although we had a working GPS, Southampton gave us vectors.

The only slightly sticky point was descending through the cloud on partial panel, which we all practice during our instrument training and think we'll never have to use ! We covered up the failed instruments with post-its to avoid disorientation as has been mentioned. The vectors from Southampton would have made for a descending turn on partial panel in cloud so we requested a descent without turning in cloud to reduce the potential for a problem which was granted without discussion. Reduce throttle a bit, get on instruments, keep the wings level and watch the VSI - and keep scanning, - it seemed we were in cloud for ages but it was less than a minute. When we popped out no further problems. And no landing charge from Southampton as well ! Another lesson learnt !

LF

[TotalBeginner]

Had you established contact with the LARS freq before the failure occurred? If so, I'm a little disappointed that they didn't advise you of your impending infringement. Ok, I know you said the frequency was busy and maybe that's why they didn't notice. I hope it wasn't any of the Farnborough sectors. Helping to avoid CAS infringments is part of their objective...

It’s a win-win for all of us! We can help you to
have a safe flight through some of the UK’s
busiest skies, whilst at the same time, avoid
infringing controlled airspace used by the
many commercial flights descending into,
or climbing out of, the London area airports.

[SNS3Guppy]

Just out of interest I would be very curious to know how you feel as a pilot after completing such missions successfully as you unplug...relief or elation?


Neither one, really. Usually hot; soaked in sweat. If it's been a long day, my knees sometimes have hurt enough I couldn't get out of the airplane, and a few times when I did it was as far as the ground where someone walked on my legs. Not always, mind you, but it can be quite a workout in the mountains when the wind is really blowing.

Usually when one gets out of the airplane, there's fueling and servicing to do, chasing down any maintenance issues, paperwork, and I make a habit of always washing the airplane thoroughly as the retardant is corrosive in the long run. Dispatches don't allow much time to prepare, so there really isn't a lot of time to think about where one has just been; just to think about what's next. It's much like approaching an obstacle in flight; it's the center of your universe until obstacle clearance is assured, then you're focusing on the next obstacle and beyond...sort of flying through the obstacles, rather than worrying about what's gone behind.

I think that same mentality translates well to abnormal experiences in flight for any of us. One may be flying along on a beautiful day, fat, dumb, and happy, and then the engine fails. At that point, things have changed. Let go of what was, deal with lays ahead...mentally switching gears, not getting tied up in past. Same kind of thing with the fires...not really a fright or a thrill, just a job to do, and when it's over, there's only the next job to think about.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

For whatever it is worth I thought I may as well put my two cents in here and support the aviate before all other tasks when flying.

When I was flying the Cats in the fire suppression business there were two Cats that hit each other head on circling around a downed helicopter that had crashed near the fire they were working....the sad part is the helicopter pilot was unhurt and four pilots died because they failed to aviate while doing something else.

As far as having tired legs after a day of fire suppression we really had it tough flying the Cats because they are real heavy bitches as far as rudder use goes.....and we didn't get much time to fly straight and level as we usually could scoop water near the fires.....three minutes from drop to drop was not unusual.

The most drops I ever did in one day was 142 in the North West Territories.

But I degress so back to the topic.:ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Navigate goes hand in hand with flying the airplane.

Why?

You have a problem - there is absolutely no doubt that aviate comes first.

In this case chances are your instant reaction is to continue on the chosen course until you have established you have the problem under control and it is not escalating.

What do you do next?

I am simply suggesting that if you are surrounding by CAS, tensions are running a little high etc.. you tell AT you have a problem, declare a pan whatever, and would like to divert to X or the nearest.

All of a sudden the airspace ahead of you is probably clear, you probably dont have to worry if you are about to bust a bit of CAS, you dont have to worry too much about other traffic and you dont have to worry about setting up the GPS or the VOR or the whizz wheel at that instant.

In fact you have a whole lot more time to worry about aviating - the one that is ultimately going to save your life!

You also have a carm head on your side and in your ears - for all you old timers you may well say so what, but if you are new to this game I suspect their are times when that alone is very comforting!

[S-Works]

You could even bring a major international airport to a standstill in the process.....

All through something minor like a vacuum failure or a dodgy engine on a twin...:p:p:p

[Fuji Abound]

Bose - all in good spirit I am sure.

However, on a more serious note I think when you start flying we are most vunerable. We have a responsibilty to dispel some concerns that many have when they are new to the game.

Major airports is one. Dont go there, they are scary places.

Of course if you have flown in America you realise nothing could be further from the truth as you taxi in front of a 47 who is told to give way to you. I know you must have done so many many times around Europe.

The reality is slotting an aircraft with a genuine emergency into the flow causes almost no disruption. In fact it would be insulting to AT to suggest otherwise.

I'll respect any pilot who decides the situation warrants an immediate diversion. I can imagine how you might feel if you went somewhere twice as far and wrote off the aircraft (never mind yourself) in a field in the second leg of the diversion!

In terms of twin flying if I know the aircraft systems sufficiently well and I am confident after an engine loss there is no reason for believing the problem will not escalate then I am happy going with the one engine, however if the POH is telling me to land as soon as possible and I have genuine concerns about the problem escalating I am going to follow the POH every time. I am afraid I am not going to get too excited about who owns the tarmac and I am really not bothered about what bit of tarmac I record in my log book - bit long in the tooth for that - much like you I suspect.

[Essel]

You could even bring a major international airport to a standstill in the process.....


Well indeed, and some of them don't need any extra help in coming to a standstill do they!

However the nearest airfield I was heading for was very close, outside of CAS, and a perfect location to land if reqd.

I'm fairly sure sitting here on the ground that I would rather land on very dodgy field then divert into a major airport like LGW, or LHR. a) There are lot more lives at stake if your sudden unannounced arrival causes more swiss cheese holes to line up and b) if the fault is minor you'd have an awful lot of explaining to do..possibly in court????

[airborne_artist]

I'm fairly sure sitting here on the ground that I would rather land on very dodgy field then divert into a major airport like LGW, or LHR. a) There are lot more lives at stake if your announced arrival causes more swiss cheese holes to line up and b) if the fault is minor you'd have an awful lot of explaining to do..possibly in court????

If ATC are happy, then why try second-guessing what they had to do, or what the knock-ons are, to get you in safely? They are the ones with the best view of the big picture.

[Essel]

If ATC are happy, then why try second-guessing what they had to do, or what the knock-ons are, to get you in safely? They are the ones with the best view of the big picture.

Oh certainly. I was referring to a hopefully, highly unlikely scernario involving someone having a non-urgent mechanical issue and pointing directly at the nearest major without talking to ATC at all.

Anyway, drifiting wildly off topic! (my fault - sorry).

[IO540]

Look up the list of CAA prosecutions (on their website, one can search for "prosecutions" etc).

They almost never prosecute busts.

They sometimes go after RA busts big time, presumably to set an example.

They mostly go after blatent cases like somebody carrying 30 people to some event, pretending they are all 'friends' of his and none of them paid him anything. In fact anything remotely smelling of an AOC breach (i.e. depriving the CAA or AOC holders of revenue) gets attention.

They, being a bunch of ex policemen, also go after "usual suspects" - just like the police have always done. If you continue to wind them up, one day they will stitch you up for something...

But pilots involved in the scenario described here have no prosecution to fear - unless they behave really arrogantly afterwards.

[Rod1]

One day I was flying along having just cleared the Scottish TMA. I had signed off and was about to call Scottish info when I had partial engine failure. I had an unlicensed strip 15 nm behind me inside CAS, and mountains in front and was losing 50fpm with considerable vibration. I did a swift 180 and called PAN on my original frequency. Got the aircraft and 4 people on board on the ground in one piece and called the controller who had been very helpful. His take was in a real emergency fly the aircraft and let us know ASAP. No problem infringing in an urgency/emergency, it was his job to keep everyone else out of my way.:ok:

Rod1

[dublinpilot]

You could even bring a major international airport to a standstill in the process.....

All through something minor like a vacuum failure or a dodgy engine on a twin...

Bose, saying things like that only results in other pilots thinking like this
I'm fairly sure sitting here on the ground that I would rather land on very dodgy field then divert into a major airport like LGW, or LHR. a) There are lot more lives at stake if your sudden unannounced arrival causes more swiss cheese holes to line up and b) if the fault is minor you'd have an awful lot of explaining to do..possibly in court????

As one of the more experienced pilots here you should know better! You have enough experience operating into large airports to know that the world doesn't come to an end when the get a diversion.......it's just part of the job for them.

Please try to think of the implications of your comments on less experienced pilots.

Essel,

Please don't think of diverting into a 'dodgy' airport for fear of a large one! Large airport often are a much better choice. They have longer and wider runways, so if you have a handling difficulty, you have more room to work it. They have full time fire and crash crews who will be waiting for you long before you land. They usually have ATC with radar who can give you vectors, to leave more brain capacity available for you to deal with what ever is going on.

You will NOT put lives at risk simply by going to a large airport. ATC is very capable of handling a diversion, and they are not the police. They won't question if you should or should not have declared an emergency, and they won't complain to the CAA about you messing up their nice traffic flow.

ATC is always very helpful when it comes to an emergency....any emergency, and you have nothing to fear from them ;)

dp

[Essel]

Dublin Pilot:

Excellent post thank-you :ok:.. but I'm not that impressionable don't worry (although others maybe perhaps so your point is still valid of course).

If I had a serious problem I would MayDay and ask ATC for nearest & assistance, if the aircraft could not maintain altitude and/or was difficult to control it would probably be a forced landing anyway (unless you were flying very close to a major..which is unlikely). So the scenario is very possibly highly academic.

[BackPacker]

I agree wrt. to diverting to a major airport as being a good option in case of an emergency. The CAA or ATC won't prosecute you for it and there's far more help available over there than on a dodgy farm strip.

However, diverting to, let's say, LHR when on a VFR flight in perfect VMC conditions because of a broken vacuum pump will certainly give the informal air police over at Jet Blast a field day.

They should not question the judgement of the commander, but you and I know they will.:ok:

[belowradar]

Essel - Just wondering if you were IMC or not, what kind of day was it did you have a decent natural horizon ?

AH Toppling should not be a big deal if you were flying VFR

Just a thought !

[DFC]

Essel,

I recomend that you sit down and write a brief report to the CAA regarding the matter. Since you had an "incident" then you should make a report. Not the vacuum pump incident - the entry into controlled airspace without clearance incident.

In your report state clearly that you had a failure, you decided that the safest course of action was to divert to as quickly as possible and in doing so you entered controlled airspace without permission because.

Finish with the fact that you as pilot in command did what you did to ensure the safety of the aircraft........which is what you said in your posts.

---------

If you are in the same situation again and find that you need to infringe controlled airspace in the interest of safety but can not get in on the frequency I would recomend that you squalk 7700. You can guarantee that the frequency will become available very quickly and you let the whole world know that you have a problem - the LARS people, the ATC unit controlling the airspace (assuming radar coverage) and D+D are all immediately made aware of your problem by a quicj code change on the transponder.

After you get their attention they can ask you to change the code to something else but I can guarantee that 7700 gets people's attention very quickly.

Regards,

DFC

[SNS3Guppy]

Why?


Because not knowing where you are can get you hurt or killed nearly as fast as not flying the airplane.

Aviating...that's doing.

Navigating. That's doing.

Communicating...that's talking.

Do first, talk later.

Navigating is more than flying the magenta line on your GPS display. It's being aware of your position. It is maintaining control of the aircraft, with direction. Navigation is a very close second to Aviating, when it comes to Aviating, Navigating, Communicating.

You can stop talking all day, but unless you plan to hover, that aircraft is moving forward and going somewhere. Once you have the airplane under control, then knowing where you're going is paramount. That's navigating. not just what direction,but what lies beneath, ahead, and if you're flying in terrain, very possibly what lies above. This is equally as critical if you're flying in busy airspace. A mid-air collision will hurt you every bit as much as the side of a mountain, building, or thunderstorm.

Aviate, navigate, communicate.

[belowradar]

Essel,

I recomend that you sit down and write a brief report to the CAA regarding the matter

From my experience the above is bad advice, if CAA want to know more they will ask you and then you will have will an opportunity to explain what happened.

Example - "Hi Mr controller, my name is xyz just calling up to apologise for infringing your zone"

Response - "When was that, what is your name and aircraft REG ? I have just taken over as duty supervisor and I am not aware of any incident ?"

"Click !" sound of phone disconnecting suddenly ! Oh dear must be a bad line:uhoh:

[adverse-bump]

If something is going to kill you in a airplane, you'll be dead before you know it! If your still alive the only thing that will kill you is yourself.

It sounds to me like you panicked after a small failure, i'm guess you were VFR, and hence VMC. ie no need for a AI!!!

The best thing to do in these situations is not to simply point it to "the nearest overhead." why not carry on your current track? give your brian time to think and consider the options. The human brain is a complex thing, but can be summarized by the fight or flee response, this is fine if your being chased by a dinosaur, but has no place in aviation, STOP, THINK, RESPOND.

Having a little experience is an obvious benefit, when i used to instruct I used to try and teach this sort of thinking, but sadly, I dont think everyone does. You cant teach someone to deal with every emergency, but you can teach them how to cope with them when they come along.

The last time I had a Suction prob, i was IMC, at night and lost everything. I kept the wings level, climbed to MSA, paused to "sorted my life out", then spoke to ATC and got them to deal with my navigation.

Hopefully, you'll learn something from your response to this small problem, and next time something really goes wrong you handle a little better. Infringing after something like this sounds little very sloppy flying, and could have endangered many lives. One last thought have you filled a ASR?

[Essel]

It sounds to me like you panicked after a small failure, i'm guess you were VFR, and hence VMC. ie no need for a AI!!!


There was no panic, I simply felt it prudent to head for a nearby airfield which was almost on my track anyway. As already said, the concern was that there may be an associated engine problem.

Thanks to all the posters. I've certainly learnt a lot from the experience and it won't be happening again.