Ryanair Taxi incident Carcassonne [Archive]

unablereqnavperf

19th May 2008, 09:17

I tend to sympathise with anyone that has a taxi incident when being marshalled into a parking bay,however I recently (reluctantly ) took a Ryanair flight from Kerry and all I can say is they do deserve some of these incidents! If the crew flying this particular flight were working for me they would now be visiting their local job centre! Yes MOL you can try nail me however 172 people witnessed two members of the cabin crew being tossed onto the laps of passengers whilst the aircraft was being rotated around its right main wheels in order to get out of the parking bay in Kerry airport. Having flown nearly 4500hrs on 737's I have never had the need to handle an aircraft so badly! The airbourne part of the journey was also interesting as an endurance test for the speed brakes,or perhaps they were doing an evaluation for Boeing on how long they could remain deployed!!

That said the flight was cheap and on time!

captjns

19th May 2008, 09:27

unablereqnavperf

Don't you think its unfair and hard to be PIC from row 23 with only assumptions:=?

unablereqnavperf

19th May 2008, 09:38

It was actually row 4 and having flown the 737 I quite aware of how much power was being applied and how unnecessary that was. In 30 years of flying I have never dumped crew across the laps of pax during taxi! It was cowboy operation at its best and incidently a letter has gone to the Chief pilot expressing my concerns!

Further more from that seat I was able to feel the "scuffing " that the nose wheel was enduring and on rotation was able to feel the vibration from the nose wheel that often is the result of this type of turning. Too many of this type of turn causes the nose wheels to become unbalanced and therefore results in the vibration experienced on take off! Agreed this is not always tthe case but having experienced this type of cowboy turn I was hardly surprised!

Stan Woolley

19th May 2008, 09:39

Hi S

Was that post really necessary?
Maybe new Captain, quite possibly training, tight apron, crap marshalling.........??

As for speedbrakes well with your time on type and out of Luton too you should know better? Remember straight in on 08 at short notice? One thing Ryanair pilots are is current!

BOAC

19th May 2008, 09:39

Looks to me as if he was actually being a pax with observations? However, you are right - it would be quite hard.:confused:

unablereqnavperf

19th May 2008, 09:49

Hi Stan,
Was actually in to STN to take up the abbot hold lots of speed brake followed by lots of long level segments! I can let you have the details if you'd like to follow it up. I know not all Ryan air guys are cowboys but there appear to be more and more cowboys joining the ranks giving the good guys a bad name!

belongins

19th May 2008, 12:54

Anyone now anything about an unusual FR 737-800 approach into NQY on the 6th May?
Several circuits etc etc terminating in a long long taxi away from the terminal and a greeting party consisting of our friendly fire bobbies.

A friend of mine was on the flight and would like to know what happened.
barry

slip and turn

19th May 2008, 17:11

The reason Stan, why everyone analyses everything Ryanair gets caught doing in microscopic detail could be because it is a leading, large and important operation. Oh and I doubt that it gets caught every time so microscopes at the ready when it does :ok:

What's all this questionable marshalling stuff?

I thought this Ryanair was departing? Surely they don't have marshalled departures?

I was on one last night which was running late, and it turned late to avoid the building as it taxied off stand. Single figure metres between wingtip and building? You need a neck on a stalk and eyes like a hawk to be sure of exactly how many metres that is in the dark ...

Like Lodz, this kind of thing smacks of an airline operational problem, pure and simple.

Sometimes you get the impression that Ryanair is operated on an Easy setting, not like EZY, but like FSX :}

I might be forgiven for suggesting that the preference seems to be to operate with scenery detail turned to minimum density, and when sundry immovable bits of real 3D do actually impinge on the operation, after a quick "oops" and airframe swap, it's then simply a question of clicking Restart and off we go again :suspect:

Visual Calls

19th May 2008, 17:33

Another week, another ryanair incident. How soon before lives are lost?
Before I get accused of ryanair bashing, 1 taxi incident is unfortunate, several in a short space of time, plus one off the runway, points to a serious operational malaise. Ryanair are statistically more likely to have more incidents, than some others, being reasonably big, but these sort just don't happen to other companies, certainly not with such monotonous regularity.

top jock

19th May 2008, 18:29

Oh come on. I am not a fan of MOL but have alot of friends flying there and they have not had any problems over 15 years. Every airline around the world has something happen now and again. With over 1200 flights a day 7 days a week some things like this in small low budget airfields will happen with ground crew that are not trained. Unlike some carries who dont even make the runway i would think we should be glad that these things happen on the ground for Ryanair.

Everything does turn into Ryanair bashing here. You would swear you never had a problem in flight or on the ground at your airlines. Every week i read here about supporting fellow pilots but you never do when it comes to Ryanair pilots. When ever BA or EI decide to ballot for strike because they have left you with one button short on your new coat you want everybody to drop what they are doing and stand beside you for the good of the industry.

It is very sad people who post here wanting the Ryans to crash just so they can say i told you so. You have been saying it for along time now and it has not happened.

As i do not work in FR anymore i came onto this site to read what has happened in CCF and all of a sudden it has gone way off the point again.

slip and turn

19th May 2008, 18:36

OK then topjock, tell us what we must learn this time ... something about untrained groundcrews, was it? Tail wagging unfortunate dog again? Is that the point?

top jock

19th May 2008, 18:50

I was not there and i have not spoken to anybody in FR so i dont know what happened. That is why i read here to see what did happen but it all goes off the point.

Nobody who has posted here knows what has happened they have given their point of view of why Ryanair are crap and unsafe. I am just sick of reading the same crap all the time when something does happen. The stupid thing is if the crew are fired somebody else will be on giving out the MOL hates pilots and deep down inside he is happy it happened so he could fire them.

Double standards all the time by most people. Do you know what happened? Or is it just a good time to have a go at the Ryans again.

czechvoyager

19th May 2008, 20:01

Flew Ryanair into STN from BHD last week, the brakes were applied extremely sharply after touchdown then the plane took made a sharp left down into a taxiway, a CD player belonging to someone in the row behind went flying down the plane. Then they played the trumpets and cheers jingle for being early!

terrain safe

19th May 2008, 20:23

And your point being? Sounds like the crew got off the runway quickly as they should, and someone wasn't holding onto their CD player properly, luckily they didn't injure someone! And they got there early. Do you complain about absolutely everything?

Visual Calls

19th May 2008, 20:27

Top Jock,
you miss the point. There are quite obviously more incidents occurring with ryanair than similar size airlines, for example Easyjet. Aside from the recent spate of off tarmac excursions, there have been a lot of very serious incidents in the air over the last couple of years, to name but a few:
Knock
Cork
Beauvais
Ciampino
Skavsta
The below min landings at STN
I won't go into detail but you know what happened. How you can say that this is normal and industry standard is beyond me. It is a simple fact that, touch wood, other airlines are not having the same number of incidents as ryanair.
And stop trying to blame poor airports, it's incumbent upon the airline the structure the operation appropriate to the conditions.

jiffajaffa

19th May 2008, 21:07

ASFKAP

How about they setup a thread for muppets like you and call it the Anti Ryanair campaign so you can spend all your time in there Ryanair bashing so nobody else will have to endure your posts, If Ryanair wasnt safe it wouldnt be flying 52million passengers a year around Europe.

And for the passenger who "reluctantly"

took a Ryanair flight from Kerry and all I can say is they do deserve some of these incidents!

Who has 4500hrs on a 737

Stand ashamed!

Many of the posters in here would agree you dont go wishing bad luck on anyone!

matblack

19th May 2008, 21:22

I fly weekly with many different airlines (even Mesopotamia! when Sterling switched my plane). I use Ryanair regularly. I'm not a pilot but I've had some time in a little Piper! Colour blindness prevents me from bothering with a pilots licence. I am also well read technically and take a keen interest in aviation and always have. Even in as far as reading FAA AD's etc.. I have never had anything but the utmost confidence in Ryanair and never in all of the past few years have I ever felt cause for concern. So called "heavy" landings and "sharp" breaking commonly referred to by most SLF are actually quite normal landings really. Not just Ryanair landings. It also depends on whereabouts you are sitting. If you sit right at the back you feel it more. In some of the severe weather we've had with very high cross winds it's amazing to see how well these guys handle it. You are just willing them to plant it down in the last few metres. Mistakes will happen and I'm sure they will quickly be investigated and preventive action taken. We've had incidents will all airlines it just seems that people want to have a go just because it's Ryanair. If they disappeared tomorrow there would be a big hole in the aviation employment sector. If you look through such other "minor" incidents over the past couple of years you will see that most airlines have had something whether it be a Thomas Cook Airbus (now there's a heavy landing) or a Sterling landing over the top of another aircraft lined up at CPH, clash of wings at MAN, etc..

Sunfish

19th May 2008, 21:32

May I suggest that the behaviour and public pronouncements of Ryanair's senior management are the reason that Ryanair attracts so much attention?

If Ryanair really is going to wipe the slate with the rest of Europe's airlines, thanks to it's superior business model, as has been asserted many times by it's management, don't you think it is only natural that it's activities would deserve additional scrutiny?

windytoo

19th May 2008, 21:55

Several airlines have stopped using Ryanair to position crews, due to worries about their mode of operations. How do SLF feel about that?

top jock

19th May 2008, 21:57

I am not saying that there are no problems at Ryanair and yes it is brought alot by the people who run the airline so that is why i get sick of everybody having a go at the crew's time and time again. What i am saying is that every airline has problems and there are crew's flying world wide who have made mistakes but they do not get jumped on as quick as FR crew. We do not know the facts yet and crew's who made the mistakes in NOC and ORK lost their commands. The OFDM which is on board all RYR aircraft record everything and any mistake is there to be seen and to keep everybody safe. In nearly 30 years of flying they have not had a hull loss so there must be something that is working.

Robert Campbell

19th May 2008, 22:46

"In nearly 30 years of flying they have not had a hull loss so there must be something that is working."

They just have trouble with the appendages, such as wings, tail and landing gear.

Boeing should have options such as Tundra tires and crash resistant bumpers on winglets.

Honda can do it...

boaclhryul

19th May 2008, 22:47

Several airlines have stopped using Ryanair to position crews, due to worries about their mode of operations. How do SLF feel about that?

Sceptical. Sounds like a windup...

Michael

despegue

20th May 2008, 04:25

Windytoo,

Load of Cr*p.

FR has no Safety issues.

HundredPercentPlease

20th May 2008, 06:44

FR has no Safety issues.

Every airline in existence has safety issues. The most dangerous airlines and individuals are the ones who think they have no safety issues.

captjns

20th May 2008, 09:35

If the operations officers of those airlines were truly worried about positioning their crews on other airlines they would, or should use alternate means, coach, train, car hire, or even their own aircraft. But wait... those other means of positioning also have a history of incidents. Oh well they better start and end those trips from home base so they don't have these ancillary worries. Now back to reality.

There’s more RYANAIR bashing here than cackling at a Hen Party. Ease up on these gents!!! They feel bad enough. However, I’m sure they will come away with valuable lessons learned that they will impart to their colleagues.

Someone asked… what can be learned by this incident??? In tight maneuvering spots the one who operates the tiller should take a walk outside so he/she could anticipate the best route off stand. The cockpit window(s) should be opened and head craned out the window to verify wingtip clearance and marshaller’s command. Delays? Well a five minute delay may prevent a 3 hour delay, unwanted publicity, and possible certificate action.

lgw_warrior

20th May 2008, 09:56

Do you know what; I’m getting pig sick of this website! PPRUNE = PROFESIONAL PILOTS rumour network, not disgruntled pax who has no knowledge of aviation and once had a hard landing when sat in row four.com (DPWHNKOAAOHAHLWSIRF.com)I am a pilot, based in the UK flying commercially in Europe, however I do not work for Ryan air , but know plenty of guys that do. Again, as mentioned before in previous threads, they operate 1200 flights per day, every day! They hit a wingtip on a blast fence and every tom, dick and harry who once watched ‘flight deck’ on discovery channel pipes up and gives his piece like he knows what he’s talking about. Have any of the ‘back seat drivers’ on here ever actually taxied a 737-800? Maybe in flights 2000 on a Sunday afternoon. Guys, it’s not really that easy!
To pick up on few things that gets mentioned by obvious SLF posters,
Firstly BHD, aka Belfast harbour, George best airport and the passenger who lost his CD player, ITS VERY SHORT! In fact I should imagine its pretty much on the limits of a 737,the aircraft needs to be put on the runway asap, why don’t you fly next time with BMI on their A319,im sure you will have the same experience!
Taxying in kerry, ive been there, it’s a very tight ramp, hence a tight turn is required, do you fly the 737-800, it’s quite long! There is no other way to get out of the parking stand, and it’s the only place to park without blocking the ramp.
Regarding the speedbrake, it’s a very slippery aircraft to handle, more so than the earlier 737-3/4/5 etc. the wing doesn’t allow slow down and go down. You mention heading in towards ABBOT hold? from Kerry? more like LOREL hold me thinks (letter arrives on chief pilots desk, he immediately notices this mistake, as he has flown from Kerry to stansted before, and files letter appropriately, file marked ‘bin’).ATC ask you to descend FL90, and reduce 220 kits, in the 738 its tricky, also if your familiar with the approach into STN, 220 kits from 6000 down to 3000, level in 8 miles, speed brake or flaps required!.
Come-on Danny and other moderators, this website used to do exactly what it said on the tin, a place for PILOTS to come on and discuss PILOT things, chat about tricky approaches, incidents etc. A place where we could discuss anonymously and maybe learn a thing or two in the process, now it just seems to be a place where some disgruntled pax can come on and get involved in things they know nothing about and use it to vent their anger/slag of an airline, and Ryan air seems to get a lot of it.
I would no longer use this site as a learning or informative tool, as I’m sure it was originally set up for, simply because it just gets hijacked by muppets!
Is there any possibility we could have a genuine pilot’s forum (licence number required?) and leave all the others to slag of Ryanair and other airlines/landings/cd player mishaps/drink spillages/toilet paper not soft enough/bumpy turbulence etc?!!?

LGW warrior.Pilot.:ugh:

and ASKAP,it Skavsta, not Skavska.

crewcostundercontrol

20th May 2008, 09:58

This is now a VERY worrying trend in Ryanair. Without looking at the microscopic detail as to why this incident happend the big picture is as follows:

1. Off the hard and on the the Grass then take off incident.
2. Off the end with pax evacuation.
3. Stuck in the dirt on runway line up
4. Wingtip strike.

All 4 incidents in so many months WHY?
Because Ryanair does not have a proper training and saftey culture full stop. The guys don't take the time to brief they pay lip service to some longwinded script about emergencys and setting thrust just so the CVR can point the blame at them if it all goes wrong. The guys dont have the time and CULTURE to work through these finer points when going to these tinpot places.
I am sad to say it, but it is only a matter of time now before the big one! And it will probably be Borris in the left seat with Christofalofalis in the right seat with Katya as PU and a tribe of other nationalities all with differing mother toungs with minimum experience and maximum pressure!
Yes I don't like Ryanair or anything they do or stand for as I have said before they are the Cancer of European aviation.

"Sit back relax and enjoy the fright":ugh:

Bucket

20th May 2008, 10:30

Agreed. This is all getting a little silly. Shall we all calm down and discuss this over a nice hot cup of tea and biscuits?

;)

Catabolic IBS

20th May 2008, 10:32

LGW warrior

At last something sensible being said!! I have to agree with all that you have written 100%. When Ryanair carry 50+million pax a year you are always going to get a cohort who know nothing but trying desperatly to give the impression they know a great deal.....not exactly professional is it! As for SLF they will complain and winge at almost anything....where do they get the time from....perhaps Ryanair got them on stand early so they can log on and winge away!!!

ICEHOUSES

20th May 2008, 10:41

Anybody else on here noticed the poor standard of English spoken on the RT down in STN by some FR pilots, flew in there in other day and some poor controller on climb out had to repeat the clearance to some foreign FR guy about 4 times, and still kept getting it wrong, by the time I could get a word in we were halfway to destination, sounds funny listening to but must piss ATC off as it seemed a busy sector, sounds hardwork on the ground freq too when boris is reading back his clearance taking half the afternoon, maybe they need ACARS for this..

Rhodes13

20th May 2008, 10:53

So icehouses those pilots whose first language isn't english aren't allowed into UK airspace just so you can get a call in? How many languages do you speak proficiently?

He may have an accent or perhaps he was having a bad day? You never know now do you? I forgot some of us are sky gods and can pontificate on how RYR has no safety culture and that we have the worst RT calls out there.

Dream on. Perhaps if some of you sad gits looked after your own nest first then things would improve. But hey its just easier to make fun of hard working guys

captjns

20th May 2008, 11:07

Half way to your destination ICEHOUSES? was Luton was your destination??? Another airline basher:=... just what we need:}.

Listen up on the RT and you’ll find that there are other UK carriers whose crews are not from this part of the world... all deemed competent airmen by their respective company check airmen:ok:.

Day_Dreamer

20th May 2008, 11:33

Crewcost
You are a total ****.
Not only have I had good flights on RYR, with professionalism and courtesy.
But our company uses RYR to position crews and we are satisfied with the safety and punctuality.
I also have personal knowledge of the training standards within RYR and would stand their training up against any other UK operator, rating them in the top 10%.
Their training captains are some of the most experienced 737 pilots that I have met, and they dont pass students because they have paid for a course.
As a trainer with over 6000 hours on the 737, I know what I am talking about.
RYR operate into smaller airports and some of those have only come into the jet age because RYR operate there, the airports have problems with their training and personnel retention.
Whilst you cannot rely on the marshaller (Thomas Cook 757-300 LYS) the responsibility rests with the captain, if he is unsure he can stop and call for a wing tip clearance check, might take 5 mins to arrange but better than damage to the aircraft.
Clipping a pier happened to me once when following the yellow brick road at CDG, I was F/O the pier was on my side, it was not parked correctly and as I called stop we rocked into the pier breaking a nav light.
As to other posters here who only exist to knock RYR, you can have your own forum and not waste band width for those who actually have something constructive to say.
Every airline has incidents just check the FDM statistics for the facts.
RYR are bashed for any event in which their name is mentioned, others are omitted because their operation is considered by some as safer.

There is no such thing as a pilot who does not make mistakes.
But there are two types of pilot, those who have and those who will.

crewcostundercontrol

20th May 2008, 11:54

Day Dreamer,
Thank you for your post. I would first like to say that I have never said anything derogatory about Ryanair crew or it's trainers. I have many friends in FR who are Pilots and some of them Training Cpts. My Gripe is with the intimidation culture and working environment that these guys have to put up with and it's nock on effect with the rest of the European aviation environment. I am sure you are fully aware of what I am talking about and the first hand stories I have been told are shocking truly shocking. FR crew are under on time performance pressure to the extent it compromises safety. That is my opinion. In my company I have never ever heard of anyone being threatened or intimidated my management, or being yanked out the seat and told don't come in tomorrow and you know that this has happened in FR! Maybe it's because we are a UK airline and have BALPA something you guys are craving but don't have the balls to muster.......

graviton

20th May 2008, 12:59

Crewcostundercontrol

“The guys don't take the time to brief they pay lip service to some longwinded script about emergencys and setting thrust just so the CVR can point the blame at them if it all goes wrong. The guys dont have the time and CULTURE…..”

“Maybe it's because we are a UK airline and have BALPA something you guys are craving but don't have the balls to muster.......”

“I have never said anything derogatory about Ryanair crew……”

You clearly don’t read what you write, how very wise!

SLF3b

20th May 2008, 13:50

Post 47 (Multinational doesnt use Ryanair because.....)
Sorry, doesn't wash.

Othe rmultinationals don't use BA because their executives are fed up of having to explain that they were late because the flight was cancelled, their bag went to Milan, the aircraft landed short of the runway, the cabin crew were on strike, it was just another day at Heathrow etc....

rubik101

20th May 2008, 14:21

Windy too, quote your sources and list the airlines or shut ............ up, please.

Right Way Up

20th May 2008, 14:48

Serious incidents such as the CIA one , or the TOM at Bournemouth, are bound to be brought up for discussion on PPrune and promptly dissected, but the furore over incidents like this are getting a little riduculous. Considering the size of RYR I doubt they have any more ground incidents like this than any other airline. Also its worth considering that their route structure takes them into many more smaller airfields with substandard marshalling & markings.

eastern wiseguy

20th May 2008, 15:18

their route structure takes them into many more smaller airfields with substandard marshalling & markings

Why should that be? As a paying passenger I want to be sure that the places I fly into are properly licenced and equipped. Why SHOULD there be substandard anything?.

Right Way Up

20th May 2008, 15:34

eastern wiseguy,
I am afraid it is a fact of life that some places will not be quite so good as others, although all licenced to the level required by the local authority.

EGAC_Ramper

20th May 2008, 18:15

I'd agree here with some opinions. Professional pilots rumour network yet alot of comments here are pax who are not in the know. Would believe some of this site should be restricted to those professional pilots amongst us.

Czechvoyager... the brakes have to be applied firmly on landing in BHD its tight for B738's and they are restricted aswell.

Just getting a tad sick of those making statements when they are sitting from row 12.

Regards

Pilot Pete

20th May 2008, 18:31

Windy too, quote your sources and list the airlines or shut ............ up, please. Tfly for one. Just quoting a fact, no bashing implied.....

PP

Right Way Up

20th May 2008, 19:30

ASFKAP,

That comment was with regard to their overall risk, and not to the reason for this incident, although some posters suggest that the marshalling leaves a lot to be desired in Carcassone.

BYALPHAINDIA

20th May 2008, 19:37

They do like to 'rush' around at good old FR

20 min turnarounds and all that:ugh::hmm:

czechvoyager

20th May 2008, 20:15

The landing I referred to was at STN arriving from BHD. I know about the short runnway situation at the George Best Belfast City, they're waiting for planning permission to lengthen it, and then extend the FR coverage to mainland Europe. Point taken about us lay people on PPRUNE, I would feel the same way if it were I taxi drivers forum!

slip and turn

20th May 2008, 20:22

Right Way Up, why the hell are you still banging on about questionable marshalling at Carcassonne?

What's that got to do with the price of eggs on this one?

Early in this thread someone provided a nice picture and suggested that this incident occurred after there had been a threat of a double bay parking charge and the Ryanair elected to leave before they incurred it. I am beginning to believe it might not be far from the truth :hmm:

Either way, I don't think anyone has said there was any marshaller involved and from my memory of the apron when I was their last summer I can't imagine why there would be one on departure.

Even at London City for crying out loud, all and sundry usually manage to depart without help from any marshaller.

And at one small Ryanair destination I use regularly, where the Apron is a similar size to CCF, the chocksman NEVER marshalls on to the stand let alone off it, even though being a highly competent type of operative he plainly could if it was a service Ryanair purchased from his employer.

Does Ryanair even purchase a marshalling service at Carcassonne?

The Real Slim Shady

20th May 2008, 21:03

Marshaling is a service normally provided by the airport authority, not the handling agent, hence the provision of the service is a function of the payment of the landing / runway occupancy fee.

Right Way Up

20th May 2008, 21:30

Slip & Turn,
FFS If you actually bother to read my posts I only mentioned questionable marshalling at Carcassone once and that was in relation to the RYR guys who had brought it up. Hardly banging on about it! :rolleyes:

Robert Campbell

21st May 2008, 01:38

"it’s a very slippery aircraft to handle, more so than the earlier 737-3/4/5 etc. the wing doesn’t allow slow down and go down. ... in the 738 its tricky, also if your familiar with the approach into STN, 220 kits from 6000 down to 3000, level in 8 miles, speed brake or flaps required!."

I've got friends who fly for a rather large line here in the States that operates only 73Xs

Many wonder how the 738 got included in the type rating with the previous 73s.

slip and turn

21st May 2008, 09:06

Right Way Up, I am sorry I singled you out but actually I have followed this thread in some detail. So I'd got the impresssion rightly or wrongly that you'd already side-swiped the airport or small airports like it three times on this page, not once.

I am annoyed with all those that dismiss these avoidable incidents as simply collateral damage in a busy airline business that is somehow limited in its sphere of influence when it decides to go somewhere a bit avant-garde.

If an airline, decides to start taking Boeings into a small airport then the airline owes everyone a special duty of care in how they manoeuvre their kit in less than ideal spaces. That doesn't mean leave it to the pilots and/or men on the ground and woe betide the first to mess up. It means the airline needs to have a continuing meaningful relationship with the airport and ground handlers (if different) which includes conducting, updating and heeding proper risk assessments, and communicating some good ground rules to the otherwise hapless aircrews.

I mean how hard can it be for an airline's risk assessor to identify exactly how many ways their 737-800 can be safely driven on and driven off that apron in the presence of other aircraft and equipment? Shall I get my clipboard and consult Google Earth, or do I actually need to go there and talk to some people, do you think?

Trouble is, talking safety always costs new money, so I suppose there is a natural reluctance for any accountant to be pro-active in the peripheral aspects once the operation has started.

BTW, as an aside, ssg (of the V1 / flex power debate) might note that CCF is not one of those facilities with 100 miles of flat Iowa cornfields at the end of the runway, either. So we might guess that it's not just wingtips that get a battering at this one.

Whilst I remain pleased to have been 'plonked', on time, just 30 minutes from my upcoming lunch within the walls of the Cité, I'd already decided last summer that using CCF is a tad on the adventurous side of ideal at the best of times. But hey, that's just my take on it ...

Personally I'll be trying a different Ryanair venue this summer with what looks like an extra 4000 feet between the piano keys and a spare 12500 footer next door ;) ... but then I always was a bit of a tarmac jockey :p.

F14 :rolleyes: indeed...oh, he's popped orf ...

Right Way Up

21st May 2008, 09:43

Slip & Turn,
I agree with you that just because it is a small airfield that the airline should just roll with the punches. However the problem is that the risk will always be higher at some places than others. Being vigilant is the answer but it only needs someone to take their eye off the ball for a second and voila an incident.

eastern wiseguy

21st May 2008, 10:55

Being vigilant is the answer but it only needs someone to take their eye off the ball for a second and voila an incident

That is true.....my employers(a well known ANSP) are fanatical about reducing risk. The regulatory authority have had the aerodrome operator grubbing out a bush because it infringes a horizontal plane. The apron is a nightmare of "one in one out"(don't even THINK about parallel pushes and yet an airline can cheerfully operate into an airfield where things (to paraphrase) "could be better".

I would have thought that european standards would have had a more consistent feel to them.

EGAC Ramper. I apologise for posting as I am not a professional pilot just an ATCO with 30 years experience. :hmm:

The Real Slim Shady

21st May 2008, 11:14

The standard FR turn round time is 25 minutes.

It is not unusual to turn the aircraft round in 17 minutes where the ground handling services are slick: the most common difficulties in turning the aircraft round are normally related to problems with the ground handling services e.g missing passengers, baggage search, security delays, non availability of GSE, airport congestion etc.

Turning a 738 round in 25 minutes is neither difficult or stressful: it just requires teamwork and everyone getting on an doing their job.

Operating in to CCF is challenging, but landing performance is not a problem. There are other airfields we all operate to which are far more challenging, in my opinion, than CCF. Salzburg is a point in case, where we blithely arrive and depart into the cul de sac valley at night; Skiathos is fairly sporty with the end of 02 overhanging the cliff; Ajaccio is another strip where you have to eye on the ball and Corfu is just a bundle of laughs, especially at night in bad weather.

We are all, regardless of which company we work for, operating large, high performance aircraft into airfields which were built to cope with turboprops and haven't been developed to keep pace with the growth of air services and equipment.

Let's not be to harsh on each other and keep some perspective here.

slip and turn

21st May 2008, 12:20

Woa, Real S. Shady!It is not unusual to turn the aircraft round in 17 minutes where the ground handling services are slickthat'd only be where the ground handling services are slick and the load factor was either real slim or real sick :yuk:

I am all for a bit of well motivated teamwork, but I think you are getting a little carried away with your optimism :}

You'd certainly amaze me if I saw you doing chocks in to chocks out in 17 with any meaningful load e.g. 160<pax<=189. Totally impossible for all reasonable intents and purposes I'd say.

As for your claim that 25 mins therefore isn't stressful, well on a good day, with a good team, and no detracting factors, and not counting a healthy background level of team adrenalin, endorphins and sweaty armpits all round, and on the basis that practice makes perfect, I'd just about allow that :ok:, but how many real days actually fit the ideal on every sector :{ ? It's that robbing of Peter to pay Paul that surely creates the stress?

And then before you know it, ding! (oops!)

The Real Slim Shady

21st May 2008, 14:13

Slip,

I've managed a stress free 17 minute turn at LDY with around 130 pax in and out; we were the only aircraft n the ramp tho!

Equally, at CIA with 150 ish I've had 1 hr + caused by poor ground handling ( there is no IATA delay code for Italy) but I've also had a 25 minute turn in Berlin with a full house each way: but hey, they are German!!

Essentially, a great deal of the ground time is down to the handling, not FR crews: the culture of the country makes a huge difference.

MPH

21st May 2008, 15:00

ASFKAP What a load of b...s... I wonder what those exec´s would have said if, they had been on the BA B777 short landing at LHR or the LH incident at HAM or the A340 of Af at Toronto etc... if, comfort and service are their cup of tea ok. But, please do not imply that a company (ie FR) in your case is, cuestionable because of saftey issues!!!!:bored:

MPH

21st May 2008, 16:39

Fair enough ASFKAP. Reliability as in ón time´or as you mentioned tech. related? Well, in EUR to get around most of the countries and to some of the places they fly to, not much option price wise and frequency wise (that includes Easy, Air Berlin etc.)

ItsAjob

21st May 2008, 17:39

With these 17min turn arounds, I assume you board and fuel? If so does somebody not have to be downstairs on a headset or such? This leaves about how much time for other cockpit duties and briefings to be done correctly?

aerobat

21st May 2008, 17:50

Thats easy, a lot of destinations we take round trip fuel.

The Real Slim Shady

21st May 2008, 18:15

as aerobat says, we take round trip which makes the turn round much quicker.

Based

21st May 2008, 18:27

ASFKAP, what exactly do you mean by reliability grounds? That they might not get you there on time? Putting Ryanair's own claimed puncuality stats aside, on average they still tend to perform at least as well if not quite a bit better than other European carriers.

This company you talk of just sounds like yet another willing to waste cash on portraying a particular image. I don't see how this is relevant to any claimed reliability or safety issues regarding Ryanair.

It's interesting you claim that you 'personally don't use them because of safety concerns, but thats because I worked there.' If anything I would of thought that you'd be relatively happy to continue using Ryanair if you were able to see their pilot training and approach to saftey from the inside.

To me what people seem to overlook is that a major incident is quite likely to have a much greater impact on Ryanair (or any other LCC) than on the likes of BA. If the BA 777 Heathrow accident was a Ryanair aircraft my guess is the Ryanair sales would've taken a much greater hit than whatever BA have experienced making safety arguably even more important to Ryanair - certainly from a cold-hearted accountant's point of view!

srobarts

21st May 2008, 19:11

ASFKAP, are you for real? Do you understand large company requirements and in house travel agents in large companies? I think not. I have worked in the past for a multinational company, and for the past ten years flown round Europe and Africa as a contractor for various multinational companies.
In house travel agents will only sell tickets where they get commission - when I last asked neither Ryanair or Easyjet pay agents commission.
Many business travelers require a flexibility in their travels that only a fully refundable fully changeable ticket can deliver. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to change one or more legs of a trip to another airline.
I have no qualms about flying Ryanair, my last flight was delayed on the return trip by a technical problem, at no time was safety compromised. We regularly use the low cost airlines for leisure flying. For business I choose major airlines, not for safety, not for reliability but quite simply the ticketing choice.

A happy Ryanair SLF....

KentishRoman

22nd May 2008, 10:21

Srobarts: I currently work for a small business travel agent. I can assure you that the vast majority of carriers pay 0% comm to us agents..We derive most of our income from booking and service fees.

For that reason, we'll book whatever our customers wants us to book - as long as within their company policy. Put simply, we get £25 per ticket whether its LTN/GLA on loco or LHR/NYC in F on BA

We have to keep an eye on the pax though - amazing how many will book outside of policy in order to rack up those miles...

srobarts

22nd May 2008, 10:46

KentishRoman, I bow to your direct knowledge. I was told differently.

rubik101

22nd May 2008, 15:40

ASFKAP, would you care to quote your source for these 'reliability' statistics? Most of us base our decisions and choices on experience, information, recommendation or plain instinct.
You appear to base your decision to ridicule and avoid Ryanair on a baseless theory that Ryanair are less reliable than other airlines. Show us the facts.

How many flights failed to reach their destination over a few days out of LHR a few weeks ago? Hundreds.
How many Ryanair flights were late arriving at their destination in the last year? A handful.

You and your ilk, and there are many of you, write such absolute drivel that I just wonder what you would do if you had a decision to make based on fact rather than rumour. You are writing fiction for heaven's sake!
Before you write rubbish, ask yourself how you will answer the question; where did you find that 'fact' from?
Writing 'industry sources' or 'I am told' mean you are making it up. You are writing lies unless you can quote a reliable and verifiable source.

But as someone said, why let facts get in the way of a good story?

By the way, 25 minute Turn Rounds are accomplished by Ryanair and other efficient airlines on a daily basis without sweaty armpits or pumping adrenalin, (yet more rabid and uninformed hyperbole from an ignorant onlooker) on about 98% of the more than one thousand flights every day.

slip and turn

22nd May 2008, 17:02

Nice of you to comment in such friendly tones rubik101 :}

I think we'd all have to agree that before we learned of the 'new 17', here in this thread, that the 'old 25' had most definitely reached the public consciousness as some kind of accepted normalcy to be found somewhere between FRn scheduled arrival time and FRn+1 scheduled departure time on the next sector.

That said, I suppose that no great shakes causing no heightened adrenal activity and no sweaty armpits should not surprise us. It is afterall a 'full 7' (years) since someone on PPRuNe wondered about the 'lost 53' (minutes again):
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=62936

May we assume that 980 flights a day do not require a cooling off period or is that pushing statistics a bit too far?

Empty Cruise

22nd May 2008, 17:34

s&t,

Before you bring brake cooling into the equation - I assume that you know the difference between "2 engine reverse" & "no reverse" brake cooling schedules?

63 T, 20 deg. C, 140 kt brake-on-speed, A/B 3 and 2 engine reverse gives me 20 min. brake cooling turn-around time, but hey, what do I know? I'm just an overpaid busdriver!

Before people launch into more uninformed speculation - could we please leave it to the 73-drivers to comment on specific operational procedures and problems and leave the general comments to everyone else? :ugh:

rubik101

22nd May 2008, 17:52

Pray tell me, what is friendly about spurious and unfounded allegations, smears, innuendo, utter fiction and made up lies when referring to your fellow 'professionals'? So, will you now refer me to the reliable and verifiable source where you found the statistics about Ryanairs' reliability, or lack of it?

I thought not.

So, with reference to Quick Turn Round Times, a reliable and certified source I think you will agree;

737-800/CFM56-7B26
JAA/JAROPS
Category C Brakes
Page P1.12.12

I will not reproduce the whole page but suffice to say that unless you land a B737-800 at 65.000kg (close to MLW) at +30C or more at an airfield above 3000' with no reverse, a tailwind, no Auto Brake and Max Manual Brakes from touch down speed, you will need around 30 minutes of brake cooling time.

As 99% of Ryanair landings are at around a max of 62.000kg, temps closer to 25C, at fields less than 1000' with two reversers, and auto brake selected, the cooling time will rarely be more than 10 minutes.

So get off the bandwagon slagging the operation and expressing disbelief that 25 minute turn arounds are somehow either illegal or impossible because that is very evidently not the case!

I am rude because a lot of posters write well crafted lies, inuendo, slander, rubbish, made up rumours, ill found 'facts', so called 'reports' and all the time they are smiling as they stick the needle in any airline, poster, theory that they don't want to agree with. It is an obsession with some of them!

Every time you ask these idiots for a reference or source they suddenly go on holiday and/or stop posting.

When they, and they know who they are, stop writing their drivel here, the better the PPRUNE site will be for the professional pilots it is intended to serve.

slip and turn

22nd May 2008, 17:58

Before people launch into more uninformed speculation - could we please leave it to the 73-drivers to comment on specific operational procedures and problems and leave the general comments to everyone else?No let's not. Let's all have a chance to learn. Just because you deploy reversers doesn't mean you always avoid braking hard now does it? I remember thinking just the other day "well why did he bother with the reversers?" because by the time they were selected we were already considerably and noticeable slowed by application of either your autobrakes or some LHS pre-emptory plates of meat and it was time to put them away again. And I am sure we are all familiar with the various tunes varying from baritone down to a graunchy double bass sometimes played on the brakes in your fleet so they do noticeably get used a bit, eh?

So I think questions about the mythical long lost 53 minutes are fair dinkum for a general audience, don't you?

It very much sounds like there's a whole lot more written in the manual about brake cooling turnaround times than there was in 2001 ... care to share the highlights of the last 7 years of quick turnaround experience on the subject or is it selected customers only stuff?

Edit: Ah you pre-empted me captain! Thanks rubik101 for updating us with some examples so we the uninformed, can now begin to see the state of their art.

Empty Cruise

22nd May 2008, 18:18

s&t,

Of course the use of 2 engine reverse doesn't preclude hard braking - but that doen't have anything to do with whether a 25-min. turn-around is feasible from a brake-cooling point of view.

If you land early - you have more time for brake cooling. If you land at TSF (where use of reverse is banned except for safety reasons anyway) where they never manage to turn an aircraft in less than 35 min. anyway, you have more time for brake cooling. But that doesn't mean that we cannot operate the aircraft in such a way that a 25 min. turn-around is both legal and safe - if we need 25 min., we pile on the reverse and let the A/B do its job so we know exactly where we stand from a brake energy point of view.

I agree that planning for A/B 2 and 2 engine reverse - only to disconnect the A/B at 100 kt. and apply agressive manual braking - doen't solve a thing. But implying that it's the LHS guy doing it every time is a bit misguided. Had a 40 min. turn-around because the FO decided he wanted to impress me by making the exit.

Anyhow, that problem has been adressed with a new SOP - that only the captain disconnects the A/B, and does it by lowering the S/B. This should ensure consitent brake application - no-one is keen on lowering the S/B too early, so if followed, this SOP should make it more or less fail-safe.

In other words - you're barking up the wrong tree. Brake cooling is not an issue, provided aircraft is operated correctly - end of story!

javelin

22nd May 2008, 21:07

I only asked a simple question......................................:eek:

slip and turn

22nd May 2008, 21:25

You did indeed, javelin :ok:, but it was the sucking of teeth that put everyone on edge:p.

Yes of course I am barking Empty Cruise :p. It was not my intention to question legalities, merely to explore Real Slim's astounding 17 minute number by comparing it with what I have even timed several times for the hell of it :8 . Now you may well be thinking what on earth has he been timing it for? I'd say well what else do you do when standing freezing your butt off waiting for the cage door to open letting us poor unwashed loose onto the apron? :) I also half-remembered some JAA critical turnaround number many moons ago and coughed it up ... sorry!

Anyway, look where it took us - onwards and upwards - all the way to some pages in a manual that some of us onlookers didn't know had been written yet :ok:

Anyway, just for javelin, and since I'm at least part responsible for the drift well away from the original subject which I think was inadvertent winglet-bashing, with a trip through turnaround times, on to cooler-than-your-average brake SOPs, and finally to a healthy perusal of the manual, you'all perhaps will forgive me that in an attempt to find something to steer the thread back on track before we get out and push it, I flicked to the turn radius pages in the manuals ... now there's something Sloe Moe might go for :8 ... wheels within wheels and all that ... quite impressive what dimes/sixpences you can turn on if you know how, eh? Oh, and what not to attempt is in there too :E .

So, may we conclude that the lines on any self-respecting FR-serving apron (or failing that, the lines in any FR-pilot's mind's eye) need to be painted with due regard to the extremes shown in turn radius section of the manual, but with an extra 7.3 metres added for luck ;)

Maybe I was wrong - much of this operations apron logistics support planning stuff is barely worth getting up from the desk. Give me Google and give me AutoCAD Lite - what more could an ops planner desire? :}

captplaystation

24th May 2008, 10:55

Marshalling at CCF is the worst I have seen in 19 years as Capt.
May have had cack-all to do with this but there it stands.
Oh and for god sakes don't let them fuel you unsupervised, not if you want to respect the 457kg inbalance limit anyway.
Nice place though if you get off.

stator vane

25th May 2008, 22:12

what was this thread about anyway?

after all these pages, i can't remember---

honestly, if a 737 driver can't keep from hitting a building, he/she should give it up--this is not a 747--

if one leans forward enough to have both eyes clearly on the wing tip, the bi-focal ability should give a good depth perception.

i get no closer to the building than i choose. forget the ground marshaller's desires.

perhaps not politically correct but realistic.

and captainplay, we know you are slightly biased toward the french!!! ha.

good to hear from you again---

VAFFPAX

26th May 2008, 01:25

Firstly BHD, aka Belfast harbour, George best airport and the passenger who lost his CD player, ITS VERY SHORT! In fact I should imagine its pretty much on the limits of a 737,the aircraft needs to be put on the runway asap, why don’t you fly next time with BMI on their A319,im sure you will have the same experience!
I can second LGW warrior here. BHD is VERY short. Even FlyBE with their cute little turbo-prop Q400's have to lash on the brakes (although their new carbon fibre brakes - or so the pilot explained at the time - made the landing slightly unpleasant once).

But hey, that's what that lovely invention called a SEAT BELT is for. That's why the lovely c/c ask you to kindly put it on and leave it on, so that you DON'T go crashing into the seat in front of you.

S.

The Real Slim Shady

26th May 2008, 10:21

It was not my intention to question legalities, merely to explore Real Slim's astounding 17 minute number by comparing it with what I have even timed several times for the hell of it . Now you may well be thinking what on earth has he been timing it for? I'd say well what else do you do when standing freezing your butt off waiting for the cage door to open letting us poor unwashed loose onto the apron?

OK Slip, first off the airplane was reasonably light when we landed, Flap 40, A/B 3, full reverse. Temp well below ISA and a headwind. Brake cooling schedule wasn't a problem, somewhere in the region of 14.5 minutes. We didn't need fuel, and had the flightdeck ready for the next sector by the time the pax were off.

FO did the walk round, by the time he had finished the next pax were getting on and 17 minutes after we arrived on stand we were closed up, cleared to start ready to go.

Why do I time it? When we arrive on stand I start the stop watch to keep track of how our turn round is progressing: if the handling staff are being slow I can encourage them to get a stroke on so that we can make our slot or scheduled departure. It's called managing the operation: that's why some of us are Captains and some of you aren't.

I have also managed 12 minutes with 100 pax courtesy of Germanwings handling at CGN: but then they are German and do everything efficiently

slip and turn

26th May 2008, 13:45

Well I have never timed less than 8 minutes from first passenger off to first passenger on, so even with half a load, 12 minutes from open up to close up must be some kind of record, captain :\ ...

So what's latest on this Carcassonne building clip? Did it vraiment donner un coup to the terminal building? The photo near the beginning of the thread indicates le clip/coup was on Captain's side? Was he measuring the turn on his stopwatch? Was the manoeuvre vraiment subject to some kind of guidance by marshallers? Was the aircraft vraiment straddling two parking bays and under threat of a surcharge? Or was that petit suggestion par M. keskildi on page 1 vraiment un peu d'humour français? :}

Edit: It seems that the CCF staff aren't seeing the funny side of anything right now ... on strike yesterday and again today (27-May)?? : "Ryanair sincerely regrets that due to last minute strike action by Carcassone Airport staff ... bla bla"

OutOfRunWay

28th May 2008, 10:28

Do the 737s not have brake temp indication?

As you can see I know squat about 737s

Regards OORW

The Real Slim Shady

28th May 2008, 14:02

Here we go slip, from my notebook: SXF Sep 07 - in with 189 at XX26 out at XX49 with approx 186, 23 minute turn round. NOC in Jan 08 in at xx22 out at xx38, but we only had around 110 each way and we didn't need fuel ( and before you ask it was 12.5 minutes for the brake cooling advisory ). LDY in Dec 07, in at xx18 out at xx33, 15 mins ( still inside the advisory cooling time ), load of around 80 in and 60 out, no refuel.

Then again there have been the howlers due to slots, but a QTR is not so difficult ;)

slip and turn

28th May 2008, 17:44

OORW , I think I read in the manual that there is some brake temperature monitoring option but alternatively Boeing recommend some whizzo hand held individual brake plate temperature probing in the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth or fourteenth minutes after landing. Anything measured outside those minutes doesn't count :p

I am sure Real Slim can tell you about it, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he could factor it in and still achieve a QTR :}

Real Slim , I think you must be RYR's top man, certainly one that vraiment avez tous à votre fingertips, even the real data on the 'been there done that' anecdotes :ok:

You sound very much like the type of captain I like to think I might have up front when things become challenging :D