Pilot Pay and the shame game

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Hi all,

I was going through some old pics and found this one of an advert taken in a terminal of some US airport.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Waylonparker/PilotPay18K.jpg

Perhaps something like this would fare well on an Australian terminal wall to explain to passengers why flights are being cancelled.:ouch:

As for the AE pilots $US18,400 was the starting salary for a first year FO as of Aug 2004 (see here (http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsDownload.aspx?itemid=594&ModuleId=785) or here (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:xEBZ02qknFcJ:www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsDownload.aspx%3Fitemid%3D594%26ModuleId%3D785+ %22american+eagle%22+pilot+%2418,400&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au&client=firefox-a)). Apparently it's now $US19,776 (Saab 340 FO (http://www.aviationinterviews.com/pay_rates/american_eagle.html)). Put into the Australian perspective a 7.4% increase in the salary of say a Skippers FO (approx AU$36,500 sans superannuation) is the difference of $2,730 p.a, that's just under two months' rent in a decent Perth house.

Thoughts, comments, concerns or criticism?

FRQ CB

[Captain Sherm]

Mat,

Years ago while flying my beloved 777 into some Asian place or another....I was shopping and bought a T-shirt for my younger daughter. On it were the words "I want it all, I want it now...and I want it on room service"

PM me your address and I'll get one made for you. And anyone else too for that matter. I earned enough to pay for that out of my retirement income by working hard, living with an assortment of bonds, training pay, slow promotion and finally capped that list of trauma by paying....salary sacrifice....for my 777 rating. Hell...I'd have paid to meet Princess Di too. Same joy.

If you do PM me....just to satisfy my curiousity...could you tell me how many years you have spent on union committees? Are you now a member? Were you always? Did you ever accept T&C that someone else's actions bought for you?

And....I had the good fortune once to meet the lady from JQ HR you refer to.....(no it wasn't a job interview) and I would encourage you to edit your post right now to remove that "Sloth" word. It is demeaning and beneath contempt.

[Sonny Hammond]

I hardly think the J* recruitment team need people defending them on this forum.
Go to www.professionalrecruitmentstaffrune.org for that.

Sherm, we all are very sorry for you that you had such a crap career. Boo hoo.
You made your choices, don't complain to us about them.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

I want it all, I want it now...and I want it on room service

Capt Sherm comparing the complex issue of industrial relations to a silly T-shirt you bought for your daughter does little to contribute to the debate other than to class yourself in the mob of dinosaurs who always complain that the next generation whinge too much or have to "too easy". After all what is the point in making progress if we expect the next generation to have to go back to square one and make the same progress again.

Fair enough if you want to have a go at Mat Finish for insulting a friend with the 'sloth' comment but I don't want to hear about your struggle if it's only to gripe; if you wanted to share your story for the constructive benefit of those of us currently embroiled in the fight then that's another matter.

FRQ CB

[Captain Sherm]

Forgive me....I posted too early in the morning for the caffeine to have kicked in. Far from complaining about my career I was trying through perhaps a little too indelicate sarcasm to simply point out that things like bonds, training pay, salary sacrifice etc are part of life. I had a great career and very few complaints at all. You simply need to take the longer term view thats all. I will always remember a friend who knocked back a chance to have a single digit seniority number at Fedex because it was a "dodgy proposition" and the pay was cr@p.

As for the t-shirt.....get over it. Industrial relation and careers are ALL about emotion and choice. This industry was built on the hard work of those went before. Have you put in your share? Or are you a taker and user?

Still waiting your apology for your unprofessional slagging of someone who was probably just doing her job at Jetstar. Or is that your view of CRM...."live up to my standards or else". Think you're in the wrong career mate. get out now, for all of our sakes. Pasengers deserve better.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

There certainly is no such thing as a free lunch, accordingly I do think that training bonds are the way to go. I draw the line at buying a job especially as most of us couldn't really afford our training in the first place.

Now there's a difference between what is right and what makes good sense (whilst I am entitled to walk across a zebra pedestrian crossing in front of two street racing P-platers I'd probably be better off waiting). The problem comes when a company offers a better salary (when compared to one's present salary) but expects you to front the money for your own endo. Say that you are on $35.5K and are offered right seat on something requiring a $30K endo to be paid up front or come out of your earnings over a year but the salary is $65K. Effectively after one year you've got a free endorsement right? Wrong, you're finally getting a decent professional salary only to have it hijacked. The company should accept their obligation to train staff for what is a particularly expensive specialised position (another $30,000 the move to a similar aeroplane made by another manufacturer) and demand your loyalty with a training bond as collateral.

This system is better all around, the company may have to front some money but it's an investment in their staffing levels for the next two or so years and the pilots can actually earn a living wage. The system of pilots paying for their own jobs is a short-sighted stop-gap measure.

FRQ CB

[Hoofharted]

Capt Sherm, would you kindly mow my lawn, wash my dishes and hang out the laundry and that would be in between washing and polishing my car. When youre done, please leave $10.50 per hour that you have worked as payment for the privilage of working for me.

Just because you have deemed it appropriate to fork out for your career during your life, DOES NOT make it right. Proffessionals throughout Australia are reaping the benefits of the current economic climate on a dailey basis, that is of-course except pilots. While you and your ilk continue to think that indentured labour is still the norm, pilots COS will continue to unwind. "You can fool some of the people all of the time" unfortunately Jetstar and their "spin department" continue to thrive on this truth. :ugh:So no apology required by MATT.

[Captain Sherm]

I am not in any way an apologist for pilots paying directly for their ratings as distinct from any other way of paying. I have seen and been in airlines that did it all possible ways. Because they do get paid for by someone. In slower promotion, training pay, bonds, freezes on promotion, salary sacrifice. Someone, somewhere pays and you, the pilot, somehow bear that burden whether visible or not. The advantage that LCCs bring....and there are some.....is that they operate fewer types, so the training pipeline is less clogged and promotion is much faster. Yes, some will say the greater efficiencies in training mean that ratings should be "paid for". So be it. Work hard in your union, build the membership and negotiate. I'll buy the champagne when your hard work....thats HARD WORK....succeeds. I will be very happy to do that and wish you well.

[Gundog01]

Captain Sherm

I wise man once said..

"Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt"

[Captain Sherm]

Thanks Gundog,

That is very deep and I'm sure means something I'm just not sure what. Can you let me know?

Now as to type ratings.....in addition to my thoughts on the importance of pilots getting deeply involved in their union....

I did work once for a carrier that was new, and as part of its policy, paid for jet type ratings for its pilots. About 50 guys all up for 7 aircraft. Unfortunately due to embezzlement at the top, millions were missing after a few months and the airline went under. But at the time its directors called it quits, the airline had just started, as projected, to go cash positive. With the next 2 jets coming it would have flourished. But for lack of a million or so, just a couple of weeks spare cash....it died. I have often wondered if we pilots had paid for our ratings, whether that great little airline would have survived. maybe that has coloured my thinking. I'd rather still have that job, on any terms than have had all the things that followed.

[Superbad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A&feature=related

[Skystar320]

Superbad - that is fake and we all know it anyway........ I am on my last flight leg back to perth from LAX and this is what I found;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bon-qNCnePY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe2ncZ1ObIw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jLmM1ZrE6k&feature=related

[Skystar320]

And this is a disco dance plane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S39EN5tfa4c&feature=related

[27/09]

I have often wondered if we pilots had paid for our ratings, whether that great little airline would have survived. maybe that has coloured my thinking. I'd rather still have that job, on any terms than have had all the things that followed.

Capt Sherm,

Your arguement is flawed, you seem to have a guilt complex, What if the pilots and the rest of the staff had worked for for free during the startup period, perhaps the company would have survived.

No one wants to experience what you did, BUT to shoulder some of the blame as you seem to be doing for other peoples greed is silly. As I see it all that paying for type rating would have done would be prolong the period that the embezzlement could have carried on before being noticed, the end result being the same.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

This lot www.skybus.com/ were paying A320 captains $65,000 and f.o's $30,000 (U.S) per year and they still went tits up. :bored:

[KRUSTY 34]

Probably Why they went tits up!

[greenslopes]

It no doubt has been said elsewhere, but if we shoulder the burden of cost i.e paying for the training on a piece of equipment with which the company we are employed will make a profit..............then why don't we receive a percentage of this profit in addition to our wage.
Look at the mining industry, lots of their personnel use equally expensive bits of kit yet they were never expected to pay for the training cost yet they in many cases earn greater rates of remuneration than what we presently do.

It may be time to wake up and dispel the ole chestnut..........I paid for my rating so you should to.

Evolve or die...........unfortunatly our T & C's reflect our inability to change.

And yes I am a member of a union which is more concerned with its own business model than with the welfare of its members.

[Lodown]

If a business can't afford to be in business, it doesn't deserve to be in business. Simple! Donate your time and effort on the hope or "promise" that things will get better? Be prepared to get burned.

In a similar vein, despite what the owner thinks, something (pilots' wages) is only worth what someone else is prepared to pay for it and nothing more.

[shadowoneau]

Greenslopes: wrt to the mines, they are in a slightly different senario - those expensive bits of kit don't take that much time to train to operate, whereas aircraft can take 5-6 years from numpty to captain.

Rex seems to take the opinion that they can train their way out of the current prediciment - they can, but they haven't started early enough.

Their salaries reflect that they cannot get enough people in. The employees don't pay for the training because of two reasons:

They need trained people (ie capacity) NOW, not when the employee can afford it.

The employee can say "nup - I can go elsewhere".

[greenslopes]

So shadow if it takes less time to train for the mine op then why can they demand(and get) the same sort of money as Airline pilots and yet not be burdened with the training cost...................I'll let you in on a little secret..................solidarity.

Until we all(yes thats right,each and everyone of us) belongs to an organization that represents the employee in their T & C's and does so with the employees interests at heart(not the organization/unions continued financial wellbeing) we will continue to get new pilots bargaining with the employer for the opportunity of working for them.

It has nothing to do with training costs, it is all about bargaining/negotiating and the balance of power.

[Qanchor]

Hate to tell you this Greeslopes, but getting pilots to come together, agree on an issue, develop a plan, execute the plan and then stick together to see it thru is, (sigh) not unlike trying to herd cats. Made worse by the fact that GD et'al also know it.

[lemel]

As much as I would like to, you cant compare the mining industry with the aviation industry.

The aviation industry has different levels as far as the career of a pilot is concerned. You start flying bug smashers in remote aus or instruct in bugsmashers. Then you go into turbo props. From there its airlines if you are lucky enough. The problem is there are so many people trying to move up the ladder that they will go for reduced conditons (because they are better than what they are now on e.g. i would rather get 50K on a metro than 28K on a 210).

In the mining industry, there isnt a ladder. These guys dont have little mines to build experience at less pay, with the hope of moving onto bigger mines that pay better.

If the day ever comes when there is no longer GA and turbo props, only major airlines with jets, then people wont be in a hurry to climb the ladder as there wont be one to climb. I dont think this day will ever come in aus as we dont have the population to support it. If it ever did hyperthetically happen, it would be a sad day as GA is where I have had the most fun!

Lemel

[greenslopes]

Lemel I did work in the mining industry whilst I paid for my flying training.
I started as a "rig pig", and the mining game is just like the Aviation game. You do work on little rigs before they trust you with big rigs,they do send you overseas to be train on them as they are manufactured overseas. They realise your worth cos if you ph@k up the only rig in the southern hemisphere you will cost a lot of people a lot of money.........same as the aviation industry. Only difference I was never asked to pay for a cent in fact not even for food or grog or even phone calls,in fact I was provided with a company house and the company established an account at the supermarket..........all this 2 and a half hours from ML.
My point being that aviation is not the sacred cow many would try and say it is, we shouldn't have to pay for our training. Why don't we get HECS allowance etc etc. It will not change unless we all support each other(highly unlikely) or the demand dictates a change of motivation from our employers.
And yes I did wonder for quite a few years why I made the change to aviation considering the great T&C's I received elsewhere.................same answer as all of us..........I love flying.

[bushy]

Yes. It's like a casino. It's great fun, and some people win lots of money. And lots get sucked in and go home with empty pockets.
Flying is like that, and it is surprising how many people spend lots of time and money without first checking out the job situation. And the airline wannabies ended up in GA for years before either getting that job, or quitting flying.
And the airlines loved it. Australia had a large pool of desparate pilots they could pick from, and it cost them nothing.
But it has backfired on some airlines, because they did not maintain a proper recruiting and training plan, and now the situation has changed a bit (it has gone back to what it should be) they are finding it difficult to get the pilots they want (they seem to think only 1% are suitable????)
There is a bit more movement up the ladder, but it seems that despite what some airlines are calling a "shortage of pilots" the gatekeepers are only letting a few pass. More than before, but we see some whose application does not even get a reply. And there is more recruiting than there has been for decades.
In the world of art and music there are lots of wannabies, some starving, and a small group of artists who make squillions.
Aviation is similar.
For those who are starting out and want an airline career, it is smart to make contact with an airline asap. The flying school may tell you "there are plenty of airline jobs out there". But thousands of others will be told the same thing this year.
QUANCHOR Pilots ARE like cats!!!! They are individuals who know what they want, and are difficult to herd. But if you get some fish they will all follow you.

[tenfouroldmate]

getting pilots to come together, agree on an issue, develop a plan, execute the plan and then stick together to see it thru is, (sigh) not unlike trying to herd cats

I do tend to agree with this statement but I also agree with Bushy - if the cats are hungary and have been hungary for a while, they'll come from miles if they smell somthing in the air.:}

Question is, how deprived must pilots be before they act?

10-4 out

[disco_air]

bonds, training pay, salary sacrifice etc are part of life

No, theyre not.

I dont want you working for my union.

[fedup1]

Quote from Fac6. Great post mate.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=328621



Pilots and their salaries
A Lot has been written recently concerning pilots' salaries and comparing our job with others.

This was sent to me a while ago, I know it has done the rounds BUT to all those who think we are overpaid moaners please read below....



DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!

How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
How many buses cost $250 million dollars?
How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
How many Lab technicians have to retire because their eyesight isn’t perfect?
When your wife is watching TV and the program is interrupted by a news flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what she might hear?

There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

THE PRICE

I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold
I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump not quite correctly and the aircraft explodes
I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds and turn me over on my belly
I pay the price when my family splits because I am away so much
I pay the price when the technology goes wrong

YOU SPEAK OF THE COST

Ask the CEO of Value and the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades..

The Cost …Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark...
The Cost ...Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam..
The Cost ...Ask Mandarin airlines the cost of a typhoon turning an MD11 upside down when it landed into Hong Kong
The Cost ...Ask Pan Am the cost when a bomb blew up a 747 over Lockerbie
The Cost ...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street
The Cost ...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...

The Cost ...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been the cost of a Cathay Pacific 747 with one engine alight plunging into the harbour. How much were they worth to you that night?

The Cost …What would have been the cost when the British Airways 747 full of passengers lost ALL 4 engines in volcanic ash over Indonesia. The chances of relighting those engines was ZERO yet the pilots got a few going and saved everyone – What were they worth to you that day? Still Glorified overpaid Bus Drivers?

WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER

It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed
It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Saturday night football drinking your beer and wine
It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated your Christmas tree and went to church in 1989
It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN
It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than your backyard, while you mowed yours
It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish others sworn to protect you and your children
It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't turn and run, while you watched the flowers in your garden blossom
It was I who buried a friend
It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so that you may play with your grandchild

Sir, please don 't try to intimidate me I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try. Realise this and there are few obstacles we can't overcome.

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

that's great (a bit militant towards the end but).

9 out of 10

FRQ CB