Guard (121.5) police get it wrong

[jazzcat2000]

Flying around Europe we get used to pilots using 121.5 for wrongly contacting handling, chatting to other company etc and invariably a split second later an American voice shouts " You're on guard ".
However last Thursday crossing northern Germany D-**TP transmitted a Mayday with with undercarriage problem.
A discussion with controller ensued and then all of a sudden the usual American voice shouts " You're on guard ".
We were surprised at this but the controller said quick as a flash " shut up this is a genuine emergency".
We monitored this for another twenty minutes or so and astonishingly several more American voices were heard to say the same thing.
Eventually the controller told everybody to be quiet.
We descended and missed the outcome but hope that the crew and D-**TP had a succesful resolution to their emergency.

[parabellum]

Half the problem is that the 'listeners in' are on speakers and only hear a part of the conversation so it becomes automatic to jump in and say, "you are on guard". I believe that one member of crew should always have at least one ear on their headphones monitoring the R/T.

[essexboy]

I was asked recently by ATC to relay a message on 121.5 to another aircraft that had lost contact and a Speedbird came up and said "Why dont you shutup you are on guard". The half whits they give a radio licence to beggers belief sometimes.

[DouglasDigby]

Some of the Guard Police need their handcuffs attached tightly around their necks!! http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies/bah.gif

Sometimes it can be useful to politely remind someone on 121.5 trying 2 - 3 times for the handling company; if you really have to say anything, try - "You are on 121.5" - don't say "On Guard" as that can sound like "Go ahead" & you will get the full handling message!!

For this case though, very curious - why a Mayday for an undercarriage problem?? Surely a PAN would have been more appropriate as something that will affect the safety of the aircraft, a Mayday transmission is for circumstances affecting the aircraft right now. Handling or performance difficulties maybe?

[PENKO]

Isn't it the same with the slightly more legitimate 'blocked' call? Half of the time this 'blocked' call re-blocks the previously blocked controller who obviously realises that something went wrong with his transmission..followed by another 'blocked'.

By the way, I always thought the guard police tend to have the same cultural background as the infamous Practice-Pan Brigade :ok:

[Hand Solo]

I was asked recently by ATC to relay a message on 121.5 to another aircraft that had lost contact and a Speedbird came up and said "Why dont you shutup you are on guard". The half whits they give a radio licence to beggers belief sometimes.

If it was a Speedbird then let us know the date and callsign and we'll have words with the company.

[Il Duce]

What is even more irritating (and possibly dangerous) is the chimp(s) who think it's amusing to transmit "go ahead" immediately after somebody has made an inadvertant transmission on 121.5 to, for instance, their operators. Not amusing, not big, not clever.



On top of that, there's no pleasing some people: practise pan at 1740 today - after being told by London Centre that his position indicates south west of Ashford by 4 miles, fella asks for a steer to MAY and complains that the controller told him he was 26 miles from MAY when his GPS says it's 24 miles.

[Dream Land]

Isn't it the same with the slightly more legitimate 'blocked' call? Half of the time this 'blocked' call re-blocks the previously blocked controller who obviously realises that something went wrong with his transmission..followed by another 'blocked'.

By the way, I always thought the guard police tend to have the same cultural background as the infamous Practice-Pan Brigade

Re "blocked", agree, very annoying!

[Self Loading Freight]

It would be trivial to modify the software on modern radios to alert pilots when they're transmitting on 121.5. But then, there are any number of possible technical fixes for what is really a matter of self-discipline and professional conduct.

It would be even cheaper to remind pilots to listen to what's going on before assuming the role of spectral guardian. First rule of operating a transmitter: listen first.

And aren't people supposed to identify themselves when first transmitting? It's standard procedure on most voice radio comms.

If none of that works, there are always anti-radiation AMRAAMs.

R

[Check 6]

If the pilots who say "you are on guard" are known as the "Guard Police," are the people who 'police' the "Guard Police" known as the "Guard Police, Police?"

What do Americans sound like on the radio?

If an Italian pilot went to school in the UK and learned to speak English there, does he then become a Brit when he speaks English on the radio?

If it makes you feel any better these "Guard Police" twits do the same think here in the states.

Hmmmmm.

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

I believe we all can agree on some of the fundamental problems on 121,5.
The french need to stop using it as a handling frequency. :ugh: The germans need to stop interrupting all conversations with the usual "You're on guard" bull****.:rolleyes: Thirdly, the english need to stop, or at least cut down on the amount of practice calls.:= Just my tuppence worth... :)

[Sleeve Wing]

PENKO.

Quote >the same cultural background as the infamous Practice-Pan Brigade < unquote.

I'm just a little concerned at the arrogance of the inference made above.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Practice Pan/Fix on 121.5 is a legitimate R/T call in the UK when teaching students Lost Procedure. D&D are quite happy to oblige if the freq. is not occupied. You see, the UK has more than its fair share of controlled airspace compared with other countries.

Perhaps, as occasionally happens, you would prefer to arrive late in your hotel bar, having been delayed by some poor sod who didn't call for a fix when uncertain of position.

He/she then spent the next 10-15 minutes wandering around in the TMA, having not been taught a simple means of avoiding trouble.

Never been lost yourself, old son ?

Rgds, Sleeve. (Let's just say I've been around a bit.)

[jorel]

and who is the guy who keeps burping...... is the other guy in the cabin or are they both having a giggle/competiition as to who has the best burp. Someone is obviously having more fun than me.

It always seems to be in spain did'nt realize the spanish had such a sense of humour.

Never had the unpleasure of flying with a 'guard'. Wonder if they are aware that 99% of the guys sitting next to them must be thinking 'A hole'

[ejectx3]

Of course. How else apart from an often congested primary ATC frequencey can you do this?

It's standard to pop in a quick, Qantas ____ can you come up on 123.45 please? Simple, quick, doesnt hurt anyone.

Half the controllers in Europe use 121.5 to try to track heavies on the wrong primary frequency too btw.

[Brian Abraham]

Say again, you were cut out by a mayday. :(:{:hmm:

[PENKO]

Sleeve Wing wrote
Quote >the same cultural background as the infamous Practice-Pan Brigade < unquote.

I'm just a little concerned at the arrogance of the inference made above.

Don't worry sleeve, no arrogance intended. I know practice pans are allowed in the UK on the international emergency frequency... we've had that discussion already. I just find it a little ironic that those who most vehemently complain when 'YOU ARE ON GUAAARD' are probably the same ones who annoyed the rest of Europe during their 'days of practice' in the UK :ok:.

[StudentInDebt]

I just find it a little ironic that those who most vehemently complain when 'YOU ARE ON GUAAARD' are probably the same ones who annoyed the rest of Europe during their 'days of practice' in the UKMust have been a lot of Europeans training in the UK then judging by the accents I hear making a tit of themselves.

Oh and when are the guard police going to learn to time their admonishments so that they don't block each other out as they all leap on the PTT at once. :ugh:

[FA10]

Reportedly it was a Cessna 340 doing some training flights out of EDBC.
Produced some confusion on 121,5 and had another aircraft´s crew doing an "inspection" of their landing gear.
Finally made it safely back into Cochstedt.

[Rightbase]

Penko -

My training included practice PAN calls, and our UK safety group recommends occasional use to keep in practice.

And it is their observation that it keeps them in practice too.

IMHO one big advantage of this policy is that if I ever need 121.5 for real I will already be habituated to the procedures, including listening first.

[Doug the Head]

...then all of a sudden the usual American voice shouts " You're on guard ". Funny, I always seem to hear the folks with one of those snobby Oxford accents...

[Il Duce]

Gloucester airfield called D&D on the phone this afternoon to ask if they could help with a guy who was lost and trying to get back to Kemble. D&D said, "No problem, put him on 121.5"
Pilot calls on 121.5 and D&D allocate a squawk, identify him and provide a steer to Kemble. Immediately followed by a (Germanic sounding) voice, "Why are you doing this on Guard?!"
"Because I'm assisting a lost pilot get to his destination." replied the London Centre controller, "Do you have a problem with that?"
"Er, um er, no, no problem. Er, would you like some help?" says chimp.
"Negative, thank you." says D&D, and continued with the lost guy.

[supadupafly]

Is flying really getting so stressful that people need to come on here and take unfounded cheap shots directed at particular airlines or nationalities, come on guys lets all just calm down a little!? Whichever nationality or airline the pilot in question belongs to, it's still wrong. I'm sure those who have stuck their beak in and interrupted a genuine emergency and then discovered this feel like complete prats and won't do it again.

[Il Duce]

Why "stick your beak in" in the first place?

[mini-jumbo]

Of course. How else apart from an often congested primary ATC frequencey can you do this?

It's standard to pop in a quick, Qantas ____ can you come up on 123.45 please? Simple, quick, doesnt hurt anyone.

Half the controllers in Europe use 121.5 to try to track heavies on the wrong primary frequency too btw.

No, it's not acceptable (and it's not standard - its bollocks). 121.5 is not so that you can ask your mates to call you on another frequency so you can have a chat.

Controllers need to be in contact with the aircraft they are controlling. If said aircraft isn't on the correct frequency, that needs to be rectified, therefore a quick call on 121.5 would be appropriate in that situation. This is very different from you calling up a mate because you want a chat.

[airfoilmod]

I know what it's for, and I've never had to use it. I love to fly. I've always loved to fly. I've flown for 35 years. I lost my medical and now fly with others, who also love to fly. Those who don't love to fly, Bitch.

[green granite]

The maritime system uses a channel (16) for distress AND calling, you call the vessel/coast station, arrange a working channel, and move to it. If an emergency is under way, then the controlling station imposes silence by transmitting the phrase "Seelonce Distress." if someone not involved in the distress comes up on frequency the phrase is repeated. Perhaps a similar system could be used for aircraft.

[Capt H Peacock]

Do not transmit on 121.5 unless in emergency or to send a message concerning the safety or regularity of flight.

Simple isn't it?

[Basil]

Do not transmit on 121.5 unless in emergency or to send a message concerning the safety or regularity of flight.
Capt P, in general I'd agree but I don't think it's too much of a misuse, as ejectx3 and green granite suggest, to use it to call someone over to 123.45 or pass an ATC freq (although that would come under 'send a message concerning the safety or regularity of flight')

ps: Don't stand any nonsense from that young Humphries ;)

[mini-jumbo]

123.45

Which, incidently, isn't a chat frequency (at least in the UK, not sure about Europe)

[Basil]

mini-jumbo,
Yes, I almost said 'chat'. However, it is widely used as such, even if incorrectly.

[papa oscar]

With Mode S and accurate DF equipment at D&D they can identify just which aircraft is shouting 'You are on Guard' and it has been used for that purpose. So all you Guard Police are being watched - standby for 'Callsign XXX, please contact me on the landline when you land'

[DX Wombat]

With Mode S and accurate DF equipment at D&D they can identify just which aircraft is shouting 'You are on Guard' and it has been used for that purpose. So all you Guard Police are being watched - Indeed you are and I've seen it in action. :E I took a group of PPLs down to West Drayton shortly before D&D moved out. We had a great time and during part of the tour were told that 121.5 has been used by (mainly commercial) people who ought to know better to do such things as PA announcements to the passengers. Several of the group were a little disbelieving until, right on cue "Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen this is your Captain speaking......" The weather at their destination was apparently quite nice. The disbelievers were dumbfounded then absolutely delighted as, within a split second, the board lit up with a multitude of red DF lines. GOTCHA! The culprit was pinpointed very accurately. :ok: We were assured that the incident would not pass without some response. :E

[chintanmanis]

In the far East we have Japanese and Chinese guys sharing flight info, weather info also shouted down by Sky Gods from the big US and Western legacy carriers. However when we have golf, football, rugby and tennis scores happily broadcasted by their ilk, silence, cheers and great tolerance were shown not mentioning that once I overheard two blokes sharing pickup lines to deal with a certain Latina trolley dollie. Hypocrisy at it's best with such " guards "

[stilton]

Problem with 'Practice Pans' is that they clog up the frequency when there may be an aircraft with a genuine need.

Why not a dedicated practice frequency for practice pans:E

[FREDAcheck]

Problem with 'Practice Pans' is that they clog up the frequency when there may be an aircraft with a genuine need.
A report last year showed that (in the UK) the vast majority of non-emergency use of 121.5 was by commercial traffic, so I think the answer to your comment is "no they don't".

[Chippie Chappie]

If there is a real emergency during a practice pan, my guess is that the controller would say something to the effect of "Practice pan not available, standby, break, mayday aircraft go ahead".

Re the twin with the gear problem. How is a pan call viewed by ATC globally? I have been told that in some of the farther flung corners of the world, a pan call elicits little if any response and so just go ahead with a mayday call. Is there validity in this?

Cheers,

Chips

[thinkingpilot]

sorry pal but even in so called far flung corners pan is understood. if not then neither would mayday:)

[Firestorm]

[QUOTE]Funny, I always seem to hear the folks with one of those snobby Oxford accents.../QUOTE]

and I always seem to hear one of those regional grammer school accents, the kind that sound like a time and motion study clipboard weilder.

[DX Wombat]

If there is a real emergency during a practice pan, my guess is that the controller would say something to the effect of "Practice pan not available, standby, break, mayday aircraft go ahead".
Yes they would. Sometime back I asked D&D if they wanted anyone to ask for a training fix (on the previously mentioned visit they had asked us to call them if we had time). I had listened out to hear if the frequency was in use and heard nothing so called. My offer was declined politely as they were busy with what I assume was a Military emergency as I didn't hear a thing on 121.5.

[Sleeve Wing]

PENKO. #17.

QUOTE> Don't worry sleeve, no arrogance intended.<UNQUOTE

No problem, old chap.

A couple of suggestions for "hailing freq." like Ch.16 Maritime. Could be the answer ?

See you in the bar.

Sleeve :ok:

[Chippie Chappie]

Don't need an extra radio, just an extra frequency.

Chips

[airfoilmod]

Who purchases Radios in your Aircraft? (Not so Loud!)

[PLE Always]

On the flip side..

Thanks to the Speedbird driver that was back in a flash when I declared a PAN on 121.5 west of Greenland late last month.

Never got a chance to say thanks for the relay to Gander..

PLE..

[Marvo]

And . on the off chance that this mornings SAS crew on the departure out of CDG are reading this thread.. Good work this morning, you stepped on a total of 9 transmissions as you changed frequency and transmitted straight away without listening first ! excellent.

ps. I don't think saying blocked is bad, maybe its just me...

[PaulW]

To defend the so called practise pan brigade. I have been asked before by Scottish to swap to 121.5 and give a practise pan for controller training, which I happily did. Its not just trainee PPLs "taking a liberty".

[ionagh]

How would you possibly guard another frequency?

Exactly the same way the marine VHF radios do it.
They have a priority scan system that monitors both CH:16 and another.
If 16 is busy it stops and you hear it.
If the alternative channel is busy it stops and you hear it but it also continues to sample 16 (so fast you're not really aware) and if something come up on 16 it automatically switched there.

Then there are marine VHF that can 'triple watch' with 3 channels.

All with just one radio.

Been doing it for donkeys years.

[C152_driver]

Oddly enough, as a NPPL student I spoke to London Centre for the first time this evening for a training fix.

Listened out for a minute or two first, made the call and got a response confirming that we were a few miles west of Bedford. All very reassuring and easy and the first time I'd ever done it.

I hope I never need to speak to them again, but at least now I know how.

[Admiral346]

Good for you, 152d!

Anybody can get lost, the key is to get help, and know how to recover a position. You know how to now, it's what 121.5 is for:

Aircraft in distress, be they 152s or 380s...

Nic

[Viking101]

Why not lighten up this seemely tense atmosphere around 121.5? Of course its a fq we all monitor but hey- if someone by misstake uses it whats the big deal?? Its so annoying to hear "ON GUAAAAAAAARD" afterwords. Feels like there is this one person with only one task on board- to say "ON GUAAAAAARD" as soon as he hears any thing. So stupid.
The other week we heard a fellow mate making his PA on 121.5 so shortly after (and no automatic ON GUARD BS) we went on the radio stating "One beer mate" and got a laugh and sorry back.
Much better than the other really annoying radio phrasiology, which isnt standard either... For those of you just to make a reply on this :cool:

I totally agree regarding the "Blocked" aswell. You should pick your times when wanting to be helpful, also going on the other fq to chat with Nigel on 123.45 :}

You can do whatever you want, just say "Non Standard" before :E

[Mick Stability]

Can you imagine what it must be like to fly with them . . . . :rolleyes:

[TOPBUNKER]

123.45 is not a legal air to air 'chat' frequency - anywhere.

"VHF air-to-air frequencies enable aircraft engaged on flights over remote and oceanic areas out of range of VHF ground stations to exchange necessary operational information and to facilitate the resolution of operational problems." Not baseball scores et.c.

The air bands are extremely congested, hence the need to split the bands up into smaller spacing between frequencies.
Try reading this (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/customer/ispacg/papers/ISPACG19_IP14_Discrepancies_in_Doc_7030.pdf) for instance.
Whilst in the military I occasionally needed to to use a VHF air-air frequency for large formation comm's. I had to get specific clearance from the CAA on a case by case basis, and when granted this was strictly limited by geographic and altitude limitations.

[RECSAM]

Mention was made recently that some parts of the world do not recognise PAN calls. This is known to include iSpain, a quite local destination to British airlines. But the problem is that, to my knowledge, there is no definite list of countries that gives any indication about their recognition or otherwise of PAN calls. Presumably information about use of PAN calls in other countries is given in their respective Air Pilot publications, but who is going to read all of these? Until such information is published universally I would strongly recommend that MAYDAY be used for all emergency situations throughout the world, with the possible exception of the United Kingdom.

[PlasticPilot]

Many pilots think that 123.45 is a "chat frequency". It is not, but is used by several control sectors, particularly in eastern Europe. And ATC do not "use 121.5 as their backup frequency", but are legally bound to monitor it constantly.

[groundfloor]

Listening out on guard as legally required can be a complete pain in the ears, yes people off freq etc is what its for and of course those in distress. The "practise pan" bit I don`t buy as 121.5 is the actual emergency freq not a practise freq (is there a training 911 or 999 tel no) Trundling into Europe at 400 with lots of freq changes and zeroing in on a 121.5 only to hear its a "practise" is a bother. 121.5 was always and still is an EMERGENCY freq and should be treated with respect. Shouting you are on guard also does not help. If the lad has called his ops etc 3 or 4 times a polite you are on 121.5 will suffice.

[bri1980]

Groundfloor: "The "practise pan" bit I don`t buy as 121.5 is the actual emergency freq not a practise freq"

The R/T manual (CAP413) says that this is acceptable usage: it doesn't matter if you 'buy it' or not.

If making a practice call though listen first just to be sure there isn't a real emergency going on.

I have never used 121.5 for real and I hope I never have to. But come the day I need for real it I want it to be clear with no interruptions: except of course from a more dire emergency than mine.

[Flintstone]

121.5 has one use, one use only and should be kept clear. If anyone is too ill disciplined to abide by that the problem is theirs. Surely you're not telling me that the need to chat to your mate, colleague or whatever is SO pressing that you have to break the rules? Get a grip. You're at work as a so-called professional. Act like it.

As for the 'On guard' calls, why not? If someone is mistakenly calling their company or whatever and fails to realise their mistake (I heard someone make four calls yesterday in a vain attempt at ordering a wheelchair on landing) someone needs to tell them otherwise the frequency may not be clear when someone needs it the most.

[Lost in Saigon]

Quote:
...then all of a sudden the usual American voice shouts " You're on guard ".

Funny, I always seem to hear the folks with one of those snobby Oxford accents...

I agree, On the North Atlantic I usually hear a British accent saying "You're on guard". Sometimes it's followed by an American/Canadian accent saying "SO ARE YOU"

[groundfloor]

"The R/T manual (CAP413) says that this is acceptable usage: it doesn't matter if you 'buy it' or not.

"If making a practice call though listen first just to be sure there isn't a real emergency going on."

So its legal....:} does that make it right? Think about how many flight decks you intrude on when you do your "acceptable usage". Every single flight deck within about 150NM to 200 Nm now has to listen to you....

How do you listen out for an actual call? On 126.9 over Africa calls very often step on each other becaues they are out of range of each other but the poor lad in the middle gets a lovely cacophony.

Remember in Aviation thing are 1. Possible 2. Safe and 3. Legal.

Just because its possible and legal does not mean its safe and or a good system. Most probably dates back to prop days..:)

[pilotbear]

D & D do ask for practice pan calls quite regularly for training and it has even been notam'd for such in the past.

[bri1980]

Groundfloor: "So its legal....:} does that make it right?"

No, it makes it a legal and legitimate usage like it or not.

As pilotbear says, occasionally D&D do notam requests for practice pans for their training purposes.

As for 'invading every flight deck in 150 NM': the practice pan conversation is between the D & D controller and the person practicing: if the D & D controller is happy to accept the call then I'm sorry it offends your little shell-likes: take it up with the CAA if you have a problem.

B

[Admiral346]

From Flintstone:

...someone needs to tell them otherwise the frequency may not be clear...

Maybe that someone would be ATC, realising that an actual emergency is going on, but it sure as heck isn't you - you have no authority at all to be advising other people! Or do you hand out home made parkingtickets in your street, too? It is your call that just might be blocking someone calling for help.
If someone crosses the street on a red light, do you run after him to tell him that he just walked on red?

Nic

[groundfloor]

I'm sorry it offends your little shell-likes: take it up with the CAA if you have a problem.

Wow....:}

Ok common sense it would appear is not so common any more neither is an understanding or willingness to understand others workplaces. The workplace I am referring to is the airliner flightdeck operating in a busy controlled environment.

Take it up with the CAA - point taken. However in the mean time while the powers that be trundle along - how about thinking twice about whether its really necessary to be on transmitting on 121.5

Come on, be a pal.:ok:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Over Western Europe, is there any need for everybody to be on 121.5?

There are so many ground stations etc that the coverage is almost 100%.
surely if a D&D cell needs a relay, they will be able to contact a jet through the area centre.

Several times a day in the UK we need D&D to try and get contact with aircraft who are not listening out on the Area Centre frequencies that they should be. Other European ATC agencies have similar problems.

If you don't see a need for everyone to be monitoring 121.5 (when operationally possible), we'd better order more fighters for the inevitable interceptions :ok:

[Flintstone]

...someone needs to tell them otherwise the frequency may not be clear...

Maybe that someone would be ATC, realising that an actual emergency is going on, but it sure as heck isn't you - you have no authority at all to be advising other people!

Bearing in mind VHF/line of sight does it not occur to you that ATC, also being busy, might not hear them? How often do ATC ask aircraft to relay? Just because you, at FLwhatever can hear them doesn't mean everyone else can. Nothing wrong in a friendly hint if someone's not realised their finger error and if I were making that error I like to think someone would do the same for me. I'll continue to tell them and who knows, maybe one day it'll be me that stops you asking 25% of western Europe for fuel on arrival and making a complete arse of yourself.

If I interpret your post correctly you, an allegedly professional pilot would gladly sit and listen to someone calling 'XXX Ops' repeatedly without tipping them off? Go you :ok:

[groundfloor]

Spunkey Monkey :"Over Western Europe, is there any need for everybody to be on 121.5?
There are so many ground stations etc that the coverage is almost 100%."

We drivers airframe`s large have no choice for a couple of reasons

a. Good Airmanship - someone who is in trouble can rapidly become your problem, a depressurerisation at a level above you? They are going to call on 121.5 that they are on the way down. Remember airspace in Europe is like a cake with sometimes 3 frequencies in the same area at different levels.

b. Legal Requirement - every once in a while we are called on 121.5 to make sure we are monitoring, also happens in US airspace.

c. Airline SOP - nuff said.

[JAR]

"They are going to call on 121.5 that they are on the way down"

Not on 121.5 they won't!

[bri1980]

Groundfloor: "Take it up with the CAA - point taken. However in the mean time while the powers that be trundle along - how about thinking twice about whether its really necessary to be on transmitting on 121.5

Come on, be a pal."

I have no problem with your point of view at all. All I'm saying is one can't complain too loudly because in the case of a practice pan nobody is doing anything wrong, in a legal sense, as it stands.


B

[Lurking123]

No, that is just some sad to$$er who doesn't fully understand the environment he is working in.

[Il Duce]

No, no, no, Galacticosh. That is not beautiful, it's irresponsible. The chimp who transmits "go ahead" needs his head in a sling. London Centre have the capability of pinpointing these idiots in the London FIR/UIR and beyond. Those stupid enough to deliberately tie up 121.5 in this manner ought to be named and shamed and their company should have the nuts to take disciplinary action against them.

[Flintstone]

galacticosh.

Stringing someone along and encouraging them to block 121.5 is "beautiful"? No. It's pathetic.

Let's hope that if you ever need the frequency it's not immediately after you said "Go ahead" to someone else.

[DX Wombat]

Bearing in mind VHF/line of sight does it not occur to you that ATC, also being busy, might not hear them? How often do ATC ask aircraft to relay? Just because you, at FLwhatever can hear them doesn't mean everyone else can.Almost two years ago that is precisely what happened to me (amongst other things). It took at least two if not three calls to D&D before they were able to hear me and I was only able to maintain sufficient communication with them to know I was identified. Things went from bad to worse - the radio problem meant that they could hear me but I couldn't hear them - it was like trying to listen to a conversation in a room a hundred yards away when the sound was very muffled. I knew they could hear me so kept talking and telling them what I was doing, seeing, etc. The radio volume WAS turned up to maximum. The transponder decided to join in the fun and refused to work as did the spare hand-held radio. As I turned crosswind and descended to 1,000' at what turned out to be North Weald, the radio suddenly cleared and I could hear the very welcome voice of an Emirates Airbus pilot 37,000' somewhere way out over continental Europe. A lovely, very reassuring man who really helped me enormously and whom I shall never forget. Apparently someone near Hull also tried to help but I never heard them. By the time I reached 600' I could hear D&D clearly and the last North Weald saw of me was a climbing turn out to the right on final as D&D talked me to about eight miles from Duxford which was my intended destination.
That was supposed to be my QXC.

[rubik101]

I might be wrong but shouldn't 'Guard' be used only in reference to UHF frequency 243.0?
The term 'Guard' refers back to the old (1960-70s) military radio installation with a rotary knob for frequency selections. Numbered 1 to 32 and then a 'G' referred to as Guard.
Pedants rule, I think!

[Red Top Comanche]

As a ppl who had to use 121.5 for real once when I lost contact with everyone, including fields I was less than 5 miles from, I can only thank the easyjet driver who relayed my loss of contact to Lyon and then to the milatary field who picked up on my call and offered me a service untill we got clear of whatever was interfering with all 3 radios. And no one shouted "your on guard"

:)

[TOPBUNKER]

I notice the 123.45 advocates have adopted PPRUNE silence!

[africacore]

As a current 744 jockey 12000+ hours on type i must say the most annoying people are the guard police. Firstly they, while transmitting may block someone in their range, but they may not be able to hear another pilot 250 miles further away, so butt out.
Also I heard a cargo airline trying for a relay on 123.45 after an engine failure. I asked if he could tx on guard to be told that was for emergencies only!! Lets not make people scared to use it.
Butt out Guys, you by tx ""your on guard" is as unprofessional as those who do misuse it
IMHO
AC

[Raj Merlion]

africacore.......well said, aye,aye captain!

[captjns]

Sorry but, I find it annoying listening to Brand X making 4 or 5 attempts on guard trying to reach operations. One "YOUR ON GUARD" is worth 4 or 5 attempts "LGW OPS THIS BRAND X 69 OVER".

[PENKO]

captjns, I hear what you are saying. However we are talking about the GUARD POLICE, who will shout at even the smallest infringement of 121.5

Let's be honest, the guys who miscall ops on 121.5 will usually notice their error pretty quickly. No need to be punished by the POLICE.

[Lurking123]

This whole discussion is pathetic. It wasn't that many years ago that the majority of airline pilots didn't even know when to use 121.5, how to select it on their box (slightly tongue in cheek) and certainly what the term "guard' meant.

I think africacore is one of the few professionals on this thread. If having to listen to a second freq (because your company SOPs now say so) irritates you, then turn the volume down to a level lower than your primary ATC comm freq. The only time you need "guard" is when the other primary freq goes really rather quiet and you haven't figured out that you have had a switch pigs. Hopefully, by then you will still have some of that ATPL common sense left and realised that something is not quite right. In the meantime, be careful not to spill that in-flight meal as you race to change Tx channels in order to be the first to get that "on guard" call in.

[PENKO]

I think some 'professionals' prefer to listen to 121.5 not because it is SOP, but because it might just prevent a close encounter with the Air Force.

[Lurking123]

Penko, trust me I know exactly how the whole lost comms/Air Force thing works. You will have to have been a complete muppet to even get close to having a pointy grey thing on you wing. The big clue is that you, in your wonderjet, have been over continental Europe for a matter of minutes without having heard a single transmission on the freq you think is you ATC freq. Monitor your ATC freq, have 121.5 on in the background (a little like the ATIS or Company freq - not difficult really) and just get on with it.

[garp]

Not later than last week I overheard a French crew helping out another French crew which was being called on an ATC frequency. The conversation was in French and very to the point and professional but it didn't take long before some annoying brats thought it was necessary to point out they were on guard. Needless to say they blocked out most of the transmissions until the helping crew replied in impeccable English that he was fully aware that he was on guard but that he was helping a lost colleague. The silence after this intervention was deafening.

[PENKO]

Do you really have the ATIS running in the background? Must be short one sector days only in your company :)

You have a point, if it goes silent for a long time, something might be wrong. However, I can guarantee you, silence is a difficult thing to detect (it's deafening). I bet you a frantic controller will beat you to it by calling your name on 121.5 far quicker than you will notice the absense of any transmissions.

[Caudillo]

I think we'd all agree blocked transmissions are usually quite annoying. On busy frequencies they can take up valuable time when we're all working hard, pilot and controller alike. On guard, it could be dangerous.

I think we should re-double our efforts at best practice on the radio. This means listening out for a few seconds before you transmit. This is especially important on 121.5, given that it is the only frequency of which I am aware that regularly suffers from upwards of a dozen simulataneous transmissions. Mainly from mitteleuropeans. Mainly saying exactly the same thing.

So next time sombody mistakenly calls on guard. Listen out, and wait for the previous station to finish his transmission of "You're on guard" before beginning your transmission of "You're on guard". That way you will be clearly heard, everyone can have their bite at the cherry and you can all get it out of your system. Otherwise you will all cross each other and block the frequency.

[FlyingCroc]

They are just as annoying as the Arabs that always yak on the freq. And yes most of the time you will here "you're on guard" with snobby Oxford English accent. :}

[Check 6]

http://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gifhttp://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gifhttp://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gifhttp://www.arboristsite.com/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

[SpaceNeedle]

Checky....u'll be reported to the SPCA!

[chrisbl]

For what it is worth, a link to the General AViation safety council website

http://www.gasco.org.uk/pages/news_item.asp?i_ToolbarID=1&i_PageID=353

[FirstStep]

I used to be a Guard Policeman ( at times ), I am now reformed.
Monitoring the primary is my main concern, and I have been both distracted and at times unable to hear ATC when someone simultaneously transmits on guard. I guesstimate 99.9% of the transmissions are either in error or general bull**** communications that have no justification to be used on this frq.
Now, I just turn down the volume of Guard low, very low. Sort of like turning your wife down so you can hear the TV. After we coast out of Europe, and the nuisance jabbering ends, the volume goes up.

[ChristiaanJ]

jenkingeorge,
I suggest you read the rest of this thread, and a couple of the other ones on the same subject here on PPRuNe, and you'll soon enough know where the problem is.

121.5 is for emergencies of various kinds, and for those who need to practise what to do in such an emergency.

Otherwise it's a frequency where you LISTEN, and otherwise keep your trap shut. Sadly this is not the case everywhere.

CJ

[Gertrude the Wombat]

A genuine question here ... when someone tries calling their ops people, or their mother-in-law, or whoever, on 121.5, why does London Centre (in the UK) not tell them they've got it wrong? - perhaps if that were routine the other 487 pilots listening in wouldn't feel it necessary to jump in themselves?

[A. Le Rhone]

Sorry but because of all the stupid chatter and accidental calls too company on 121.5 I turn it off now, particularly when flying in the UK (where at least it's used for helping lost 172's) and China (where god-knows what they are rattling on about).

I can't hear what's happening on Sector or Approach on VHF 1 with all the yakking going on on VHF2 so I turn it off. Sometimes I have forgotten to turn the volume up again when I leave that airspace.

That's defeating the whole purpose of a 'guard' frequency.

Use 123.45 for silly football score chat and leave 121.5 for the maydays.

[Diddley Dee]

Gertie

We dont tell them as we would then be contributing to the problem ourselves. We leave it & hopefully commonsense will prevail on the flight deck, the guy will think "hmmm why no reply, why is that?" & check his freq selection. What usually happens however is the guard police dive in:ugh:

What these self appointed guardians of 121.5 seem to fail to appreciate is this...
Aircraft A over Paris transmitts inadvertantly .
Aircraft B over Dover hears said transmission and dives in with " youre on guard"
Aircraft C over Manchester does not hear aircraft A's transmission as he is too far awy to have heard it. He does however hear aircraft B's transmission and also feels the need to inform aircraft B that he is also transmitting on guard.
Aircraft D meanwhile over Edingburg hears ac C....

If we all just left the guys alone to sort out their frequency faffs, the world sure would be a quieter place:ugh:

DD

[TOPBUNKER]

... and I say again 123.45 is not a chat freq!

[JJflyer]

Flying over Germany yesterday 2 flights where trying to figure ( in German) out what frequency they should be on when the guard when the obviously native english speaking guard police stepped in with the remarkable " On Guard" comment. Someone else stepped in with the "Guard Police" remark. PPRuNe vocabluary finding it's way to the real world.

[limp_leek]

Flying over Germany yesterday 2 flights where trying to figure ( in German) out what frequency they should be on

Set transponder to squawk 7600 and LISTEN on 121.5...

;)

[eagerbeaver1]

Seem to rememeber 123.45 is Lyneham, no? yes? been a while.

[Diddley Dee]

Close, Lyneham is 123.4

DD

[Chris Higgins]

Six pages of thread on how to use 121.5...and judgments on whether or not an undercarriage problem, that might have severed a hydraulic line and ruptured a wing panel, might constitute a "real" emergency or not. I think that some people might be in a hurry to judge and short on the bigger picture here. The "on guard" crap has been going on for the last 25 years and seems to be a by product of bored pilots in automated cockpits with nothing better to get their panties in a wad over.:ugh:

[PENKO]

Guys, once again. If you hear someone talking in a 'foreign' language on 121.5...don't immediately assume it is chatter and do not shout 'GUARD'. As I overheared today, a Spanish speaking pilot was so obviously trying to contact Barcelona ATC for a very valid reason, just to be interupted by 'ON GUAAAARD'.

Just don't.

[slam_dunk]

"practice Pan, Practice Pan, practice Pan, ***** is simulating a lost position, request assistance" :{

The whole world refrains from this, except for 1 country. :ouch:

[Diddley Dee]

Slam dunk

Is that perhaps because only one country provides a unit staffed with controllers and equipment dedicated to providing a service solely for pilots in emergency and for those pilots wishing to practice emergencies?

You might be interested to know that by far the most common call made by the D&D controllers at London Centre is to CAT requesting them to go to a new freq as they are not listening out on the freq that should be on.

This Practise Pan bashing is so tedious, there have been numerous surveys & the amount of training calls is minimal (and vastly outweighed by the rubbish flying around on guard) and decreasing in the present finacial climate.

DD

[Ali Sadikin]

Chris Higgins (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=76948)

Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Posts: 604


Six pages of thread on how to use 121.5...and judgments on whether or not an undercarriage problem, that might have severed a hydraulic line and ruptured a wing panel, might constitute a "real" emergency or not. I think that some people might be in a hurry to judge and short on the bigger picture here. The "on guard" crap has been going on for the last 25 years and seems to be a by product of bored pilots in automated cockpits with nothing better to get their panties in a wad over.:ugh:


http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/post_new.gif Yesterday, 17:26 #108 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4149656&postcount=108) PENKO (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=68328)



Join Date: Apr 2003


Location: Europe


Posts: 120




Guys, once again. If you hear someone talking in a 'foreign' language on 121.5...don't immediately assume it is chatter and do not shout 'GUARD'. As I overheared today, a Spanish speaking pilot was so obviously trying to contact Barcelona ATC for a very valid reason, just to be interupted by 'ON GUAAAARD'.



Just don't.








Very true, those sky gods who think that international aviation is their domain . A sad and pathetic bunch!

[FullWings]

Yesterday on 121.5 there was somebody who'd got into deteriorating weather conditions in Bedfordshire. She'd sensibly called up D&D and was getting vectors and traffic information; sounded quite stressed. Every now and then a voice from the other side of the Atlantic would chip in with "you're on guard" or "stop talking on guard", even when it was the D&D controller who was speaking.

121.5 has a proper use as an urgency/emergency frequency... It doesn't have to be kept silent all the time otherwise what's the point of having it?

Listen before you "butt in", please, it might be a real emergency and one day it might be you who's desperately trying to make contact and having your message drowned out by the guard police... :ugh:

[411A]

Hmmm, between the 'guard police' and the 'practise PAN's' and the 'idle chit-chat', there can be only one logical solution...de-select 121.5 on the audio panel.
The Flight Engineer or First Officer can monitor if they so desire...most don't, for the afore mentioned reasons.
Works for me.:}

Arabian Gulf excepted.

[Oxidant]

Gentlemen you profess to be professional pilots...................

Some of you need to act your age & not your shoe size! :=

411a. What a glorious example you must set to your crew:yuk:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Yesterday on 121.5 there was somebody who'd got into deteriorating weather conditions in Bedfordshire. She'd sensibly called up D&D and was getting vectors and traffic information; sounded quite stressed. Every now and then a voice from the other side of the Atlantic would chip in with "you're on guard" or "stop talking on guard", even when it was the D&D controller who was speaking.

I'd heard that as well. I think it is time to start identifying these Guard Police idiots using the automated fixer service available in D&D. If there is no doubt as to their identity, then the authorities should be raising formal complaints with the aircraft's State of Registry. Maybe then the penny will drop that their interventions are unwelcome and hampering proper use of the frequency.

For the vast majority of heavy metal flying around, you're almost certainly likely to be talking to an ATC unit. If you have an emergency, who are you going to tell ?? The ATC guy you are currently in 2 way contact with and knows where you are, what type of aircraft, where you're going to, plus all the traffic around you, or by using 121.5 ?? I'd suggest the former.

So why the big need to actively monitor 121.5, and chip in whenever it is being used, in airspace where there are ample communications if you have an emergency ? SOPS may say you have to do so (the monitor bit at least), but what do the SOPs wish to acheive ?

The only reason I can see for CAT monitoring 121.5 in Europe is so that we can track down traffic who is no longer on the frequency that they should be. Maybe we should provide a dedicated frequency for that issue and leave 121.5 to those who really need it. CAT could then monitor their new frequency which will only be used to tell you that the fighters are about to be launched against you if you don't get in touch with who you should be. The flight deck crews will then be able to enjoy their cheese board in peace, simply monitoring the 'naughty boy' frequency on box 2 as part of their SOPs, and leaving people on 121.5 to deal with emergencies or practices.

Job done :ok:

[Oxidant]

I'd heard that as well. I think it is time to start identifying these Guard Police idiots using the automated fixer service available in D&D. If there is no doubt as to their identity, then the authorities should be raising formal complaints with the aircraft's State of Registry. Maybe then the penny will drop that their interventions are unwelcome and hampering proper use of the frequency.


Amen to that!

Sadly this is not new. Nearly twenty years ago, I was in a Canberra over Europe & we lost all electrics except the standby radio.(Only worked on 121.5/243.0) So whilst talking to our No.2 & ATC, some (American) person kept butting in to tell us we were "on guard".............................:ugh:

[danishdynamite]

Thought it was illegal to discuss in public what you hear on the frequencies....

[anotherthing]

Agree with PPRuNe Radar, however I do have a couple of points -

Firstly if people did not use 121.5 incorrectly in the first place, then it would not be so busy that crews found it a distraction to monitor.

Secondly - I thought we were talking about professional crews here? How about selecting 121.5 when you are in the cruise i.e. when your workload is lower? You could turn it down/off during take off an landings. Are professional crews really saying that it would be too difficult to monitor in the cruise?

If you hear transmissions on Guard a professional would listen out first, it's easy enough to work out if a two way conversation is going on, even if you can only hear one side of it.

Listening out before jumping in with 'you're on Guard' would also give you the opportunity to check what is being said and whether it is someone merely chatting or whether it is actually being used for what it is set up for i.e. emergencies or practices.

121.5 is monitored on the ground in the UK by people who are professional, however pilots can assist because coverage might not always be great, but listen out first it's not difficult!

And to claim it's too difficult to have in the background in the cruise is laughable.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yup. Professional crews just get on with the job, and don't worry about the nonsense heard on 121.5 or wherever. It really isn't earth-shattering stuff. Bigger things to think about, folks.

[brit bus driver]

This thread beggars belief. :ugh: (but now I'm adding to it, so not quite sure what that means!)

Hands up all those who have never made a mistake/switch pigz......must be great to be perfect. Personally, I think New York Centre very much enjoyed my description of a sunny day over Manhattan and the likely conditions for the crossing some years ago.....

Also, with some 11 hours under my belt, I was mightily grateful for the training fix on 121.5 (and also on 243.0 at a slightly later stage if memory serves me correctly).

Surely courtesy is the watchword? If it's a quick tx on the wrong freq and then goes away, no harm done. If it's the persistent call to ops etc, a polite reminder might be appropriate. If it's continuous light, occasional moderate, chat, leave it to the professionals on the ground.

Just a thought. Oh, and 411a et al, you really might like to keep monitoring it, lest one of Her Majesty's finest (or maybe an F3) decides to come and have a little looky.:ok:

[Capt Fathom]

That just about covers it I think.

CLICK !

[Harry Spotter]

Redskin Blue : "we are approaching target confirm 2 o'clock FL310"

"Redskin Blue that is affirm reported L1011 no radio contact for 15 minutes entered Maastricht UAC 10 minutes ago"

Redskin Blue : "Roger, Tristar is confirmed , closing in.

"Redskin Blue confirm cockpit safe?"

Redskin Blue : "Standby one , I confirm old Tristar , lightly damaged hull , freighter , see crates with one day chickens behind last 10, no 12 windows stand by there's passengers as well in front part of aircraft I see quite a few bewilderd unconfirmed passengers.

"Redskin Blue roger that old Tristar combo pax freighter say pax state"

Redskin Blue : "pax not repeat not hostile, bad shaped aircraft , aileron is flapping a bit and leading edge flap seems loose on this side as well, stand by closing in on flight deck"

"Redskin Blue roger" -light background rumble and sounds of laughter-

Redskin Blue : "Wait there's three guy's in the flight deck smoking Havana's !"

"Redskin Blue that's 411A allright , standard ops return to base".


411A: Hmmm, between the 'guard police' and the 'practise PAN's' and the 'idle chit-chat', there can be only one logical solution...de-select 121.5 on the audio panel.
The Flight Engineer or First Officer can monitor if they so desire...most don't, for the afore mentioned reasons.
Works for me.:}

Arabian Gulf excepted.

[DX Wombat]

Yesterday on 121.5 there was somebody who'd got into deteriorating weather conditions in Bedfordshire. She'd sensibly called up D&D and was getting vectors and traffic information; sounded quite stressed. Every now and then a voice from the other side of the Atlantic would chip in with "you're on guard" or "stop talking on guard", even when it was the D&D controller who was speaking.

121.5 has a proper use as an urgency/emergency frequency... It doesn't have to be kept silent all the time otherwise what's the point of having it?

Listen before you "butt in", please, it might be a real emergency and one day it might be you who's desperately trying to make contact and having your message drowned out by the guard police... FullWings, thank you for that. I was the pilot involved in that incident and, when I have access to my own computer again, will post a fuller version of events in here. The constant interruptions from the self-appointed little Hitlers of 121.5 caused me far more stress than talking to D&D and following their instructions - I KNEW I was in good hands with D&D.
FW - you have a pm. :)

[Roidelstein]

DX Wombat - read your seperate post, hear hear - glad your flight ended safely - I hope your message reaches those who need to hear it...

[G SXTY]

Excellent post DX Wombat.:ok:

[DX Wombat]

Roidelstein & G-SXTY thank you very much. For some reason the new thread has been moved to Private Flying (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=330116) instead of being left here as had been discussed and agreed with P Pop last night. :( I'm not sure the relevant people will read it there which is a shame. They really were an absolute menace and caused a lot of stress - I worked in a very stressful job so I'm used to working on the "cope now, panic after it's all been sorted" principle so I don't tend to get upset too easily but they were making life extremely difficult. I hope D&D takes it further.

[Lurking123]

It is really rather simple. D&D can easily fix anyone who transmits on 121.5 and they should report any unauthorised transmission to the CAA. There is a bit in the ANO about endangering an aircraft:

Endangering safety of an aircraft
73 A person shall not recklessly or negligently act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.

This should be pointed-out to the so-called professional pilots who take it upon themselves to police guard. I wonder what the WWII pilot thought about the pathetic behaviour of our modern day aviators.

[eagle21]

If you are not being addressed to , please say nothing on 121.5.
If you transmit on 121.5 identify yourself! That is good airmanship.

Imagine if your " on guard " trasnmission blocked the frecuency for 20 min due to a stuck mike! Would you feel stupid.... Get a life guys!

The other day someone said: You are on guard!

The repply couldn't be better: So are you!

[cheesycol]

DX Wombat, was monitoring your progress on 121.5 as we came in over Northern France, glad it all worked out for you - your call visual with Old Warden was good to hear! The D&D controller did a stirling job.

Unfortuantely I wasn't surprised by the (mainly North American) interruptions. Are we not supposed to listen on a frequency before we broadcast? Then of course there are those that sing, cuss, fart, play ringtones on 121.5.......

[GearDown&Locked]

Then of course there are those that sing, cuss, fart, play ringtones on 121.5.......

This is buggin' me... how on earth can someone do such things on the freq without the intervention of the other pilot? How can a person be called a captain of an a/c when he allows the FO to behave like that, or worst, if he does it him(her)self?? And if an FO sees that from his flight deck superior and says nothing what are the chances of the very same FO taking control of the a/c if some difficult situation arises, just because he/she feels intimidated?

Supidity. --doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

GD&L

[moggiee]

They allow it because they are BOTH self-important gits!

[anotherthing]

Regardless of the different opinions concerning the UK policy to allow parctice PANs on 121.5, the fact is as it stands, we do.

One of the reasons is we have a dedicated cell tasked to monitor it and respond to aircraft 24/7 - I believe this is unique?

Now whether you agree with the policy or not should not make one iota of difference to professional aviators. Good RT practice is to listen before you transmit - especially important when you first change to a frequency.

Although annoying, it is slightly understandable if you get crossed or stepped on transmissions on a sector frequency, because they useally have a fairly limited protected area of coverage.

121.5 is a common frequency - therefore it is basic common sense that it is even more important to listen out and take a few seconds to try to gain a mental picture of why someone is transmitting on it.

It should be fairly easy for anyone, particularly alleged professionals, to work out whether there is a two way conversation going on which is a valid one for the frequency or whether someone is calling an emergency but getting no response - this should be fairly simple to work out by repeated initial PAN or MAYDAY calls from the same aircraft with no further information... it usually means no one has responded.

In the second case then by all means respond and try to relay the call... it's all about common sense.

If you hear a conversation taking place which is blatantly just chat, then this does pose more of a problem... If it's a protracted conversation, I can understand why you might want to step in and say 'you're on Guard' - hopefully over the UK, D&D would do this though... elsewhere, maybe not.

However it is easy to transmit on the wrong frequency by mistake - why not just take a few seconds to see if the transmitting party goes away?

Otherwise where does the 'You're on Guard' calls stop?

The 'Guard Police' probably think that they are trying to maintain the professionalism of commercial aviation by preventing someone from talking on Guard when they should not be on it... but we all make mistakes, why not take a few seconds instead of jumping straight in?

Otherwise people who genuinely need the service (see DXWombats thread in Private Flying) are being berated by half wits who think they are being slick and professional when they have nothing better to do.

[DFC]

Otherwise people who genuinely need the service (see DXWombats thread in Private Flying) are being berated by half wits who think they are being slick and professional when they have nothing better to do.

Here is my opinion expressed regarding that "complaint";


I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

While I do not agree with the way that the complaints were made, I feel that a complaint about a flight unnecessarly using the emergency frequency to be vectored not to the nearest suitable aerodrome - you must have passed plenty between Wellsbourne and Old Warden - but all the way to destination is very justified.

I would have not called on 121.5 to complain about another pilot making such transmissions but would have filed an MOR on arrival.

The issues as I see them are;

1. The flight did not have an emergency

2. D+D vectored the aircraft not to the nearest suitable aerodrome but all the way to destination bypasing several suitable aerodromes.

3. D+D continued to vector the aircraft using area radars and 121.50 when the flight was for most of the time in range of several approach radar units with more accurate radar and better coverage at low level. These units could proivide just as good a service and in doing so would remove the non-emergency traffic from 121.5

One thinks that there was too much "I don't want to turn back" in this situation and both the pilot and D+D joined forces to make a scudrunning VFR flight to destination when a turn back or diversion to suitable nearby aerodrome would have been without doubt a safe option.

Had I overheard this on 121.5 then I would not interupt but would file an MOR for abuse of the frequency by non-emergency traffic obtaining a personal vectoring service.

Regards,

DFC
Last edited by DFC : Today at 16:43. Reason: Clarify statement regarding making the call on 121.5


Posted here also since there seems to be two threds running about one topic.

Regards,

DFC

[Foxy Loxy]

DFC,

Wind it in. Your neck, that is.

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

You are joking, aren't you? Go and read DX's opening post again in PF, and do it properly this time.

[Final 3 Greens]

DFC

There are times when it is better to remain quiet and have people think that you are a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it :ugh:

[west lakes]

I've been reading this, and associated, threads with interest for some time. It raises some questions that perhaps the professional aviators could answer or comment on.

There seems to be a number of scenarios being discussed: -

Accidental transmissions on the frequency
Deliberate non-emergency transmissions as defined world wide (the chit chat, funny noises etc.)
The legal use of the frequency in UK airspace; which non UK crews may be aware of and disagree with so ignore, or non UK crews may not be aware of in the first place which lead to; -
The interruptions by self appointed "police" to legal and emergency use in UK airspace

In the case of the UK airspace issues

1/ If a professional crew is operating in the UK and knows the legal position and chooses to ignore it - are they operating legally?

2/ If a professional crew is not aware of the law as applies to UK airspace (or airspace in other countries) - are they operating legally in that airspace?

3/ Continuing on from 2 if an airline rosters a crew that is not aware of the law as applies to airspace they are to operate in or assumes they do know, but it, the airline, has not checked this fact - is that flight operating legally?

[beardy]

I am struggling to get a grip of DX's scenario. Was it PAN/MAYDAY, PRACTICE PAN or training fix, if not wouldn't a different service on different frequencies, either selected by DX or the D&D cell, have been more appropriate?

I cannot condone the 'guard police' in their inappropriate use of guard.

[FerrypilotDK]

I had a German pilot tell me that 123.45 was "his" company freq and to push off! And by the way, 123.45 has been assigned to a station doing off-shore north in Norway. I cannot remember who he said he was, but I no longer use 123.45 past 0 West in northern areas.

[captainpaddy]

TO ALL YOU SELF APPOINTED 121.5 POLICE WHO DO NOTHING BUT LISTEN OUT ON GUARD IN CASE SOMEONE ACCIDENTALLY TRANSMITS:

GET OFF THE BL***Y AIR AND GET A FUPPING LIFE! WHY OH WHY DO YOU BOTHER?

Yesterday I heard an aircraft call guard looking for a frequency because they had lost contact with ATC. Every time whatever station it was gave them a frequency some **** kept blocking them by saying "You're on guard. Stop transmitting." What a complete waste of a life.

Genuine question. Why do you people do this? Why are you not keeping an ear on every other frequency just in case someone accidentally transmits there? Can you not realise that even if someone does inadvertently transmit on guard looking for their handling agent, they will realise pretty quickly that something is not right and discover the error? Why do you think you need to tell them? If you are doing it to keep 121.5 free from congestion, can you not realise that the self appointed police are single handedly causing more congestion than any other category of pilot on the planet.

I monitor 121.5 continuously because that is what I am supposed to do. I am sick and tired of hearing you people on this frequency. I am sick and tired of missing the odd call from ATC on box 1 because you are blathering away and hefting your ego on 121.5.

STOP DOING IT! I swear the next person I hear doing this: I will listen for your voice on whatever frequency I'm working on and I will note your callsign and report you to whatever authority you come from for misuse of your radio priviliges.

:ugh:

Phew! I feel much better now. Thanks! :)

[greuzi]

121.5 Should be empty for those that need it.

Perhaps it being empty makes it available for use by those that choose it to be theirs for amusement? Golf at the weekend and what bats to take?

I suggest we stop being so territorial.
One day it will save lives.

I think 121.5 is not now needed in the commercial world so they just listen out of boredom.

Maybe 121.5 should be for those that might need it?

Please create a list

[lurkio]

They are probably the same people who inhabit pprune just waiting to get the first reply in telling posters to either spell correctly, search before posting or shout journo. Annoying it most certainly is but I'm afraid we just have to live with it.
Wonder how long it will take one of these everything police to come on and tell you a thread is already running on the subject.
Shame we can't have a little gizmo on box 2 that filters out every call starting with "you're on guard" much like the ignore function here.

[artbeat]

... actually, with the advancements in voice recognition it is technically possible (and not even expensive) to build radios that would self-destroy if triggered by a transmission that would say "you're on guard". leaves you with one less radio and makes you think twice about playing guard police.:8
a.

[dixi188]

Flying out of Athens last night, heard several requests on 121.5 for the football score. I think ity was Turks!

[Green Guard]

anotherthing


How about selecting 121.5 when you are in the cruise i.e. when your workload is lower? You could turn it down/off during take off an landings. Are professional crews really saying that it would be too difficult to monitor in the cruise

It looks very unlikely that "GuardPolice" be active during APP or DEP, too busy perhaps. Cruise may be the time when they excercise their sadistic "lecture"

[.Aero]

Could someone please tell me where "on guard" or the word "guard" in the R/T context originates from?

I've just sifted through the emergencies section of the UK RT Manual (CAP413, ed. 16) and there is zero mention of the word guard. The word does not exist in that document at all!

[Flagon]

In my day, Mil a/c had a setting on the radio control box labelled 'T/R+G' which stood for 'Transit/Receive+GUARD' and this allowed normal R/T with a listening watch on 243.0mhz - in other words, you 'guarded' the frequency. I think this is the origin.

[ChristiaanJ]

I think this has been mentioned earlier.
Aero, I know it's tedious reading through an entire thread, but I think you'll find the answer there.

[BOAC]

As Rubik and Flagon have said, it comes across from the word 'guard' meaning in R/T circles to 'watch' on a frequency, as in QTV in the Q code.

I assume that by a process of osmosis from us ex mil pilots it has come to be associated with 121.5 itself in commercial aviation rather than just monitoring it, but I believe in emergency coms it can relate to any freq that is 'related' to 243, eg 40.5, 60.75, 121.5, etc.

[18-Wheeler]

I've just sifted through the emergencies section of the UK RT Manual (CAP413, ed. 16) and there is zero mention of the word guard. The word does not exist in that document at all!

The same in Australia and I find it quite annoying. There is no mention of 'guard' in Aus yet the term is used on-air quite a lot.
I refuse to recognise its use and always use/say 121.5.

[spekesoftly]

Given the number of people crossing swords on this subject, one could be forgiven for believing it's from the French - "En Garde!". :p

[boredcounter]

..............and I may be / am wrong.......
There was many moons ago about the late 80's/early 90's, as published in the supliments, the phrase 'All stations this frequency, stop transmitting X3, MAYDAY in progress' I believed this to be related to 121.5. Such call could be made by any ground or air station privy? Have I remembered right?

That would kill the practice pan, all chatter, though there seemed none then, yet being a costal Ops guy I monitored 121.5 on the GTA on scan.

[ChristiaanJ]

And of course 'grammer' is spelled 'grammar'. Let's not go there.

Maybe D&D should have a QSL card designed, so every time they unequivocally identify one of the offenders, they can print and send one with only a few keystrokes.....

[A.Agincourt]

I was given to understand that 243 was the Emergency Frequency however, because of various technical factors involving prorogation of radio waves and carriage of UHF, a VHF frequency was provided as a back up or 'guard' for the main [243]. I also remember somewhere in the distant past to the D&D cell one of the senior people there stating that it was preferable for a crew to initiate a practise Pan because it offered a way for a crew who were on the verge of a real Pan situation to avoid it. I don't know it that thought is still there.

Best Wishes

[ChristiaanJ]

I AM stupid..... should have seen this ages ago.

Of course 243.0 is exactly two times 121.5 !
Any technical reason that anybody knows of, like running off the same crystal?

If one wanted to be pedantic, 243MHz isn't UHF, because 'formally' UHF doesn't start until 300MHz. But the answer is of course simply, that in aviation "118-137" is VHF and "225-400" is UHF.

[Magnet77]

For those PPRuNers wondering where the inter-pilot air-air freq 123.45 has its authority in aviation regulations, please check out the following references in Jepp World Wide Text. (Following 123.45 is the use of the word "Guard".)

A. 123.45

Jepp WWT ATC Pacific Page 9-10

7.1 GENERAL PROCEDURES
.....
c. establish communications with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: aircraft identification, flight level, position (including the ATS route designator or the track code, as appropriate) and intentions on the frequency in use and on 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, on the inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45 MHz);

7.2 WEATHER DEVIATION PROCEDURES
General
….
b. establish communications with and alert nearby aircraft by broadcasting, at suitable intervals: aircraft identification, flight level, position (including ATS route designator or the track code) and intentions, on the frequency in use and on 121.5 MHz (or, as a back-up, on the inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45 MHz);

7.3 PROCEDURES FOR STRATEGIC LATERAL OFFSETS IN OCEANIC
AND REMOTE CONTINENTAL AIRSPACE


….
NOTE 1: Pilots may contact other aircraft on the inter-pilot air-to-air frequency 123.45 MHz to coordinate offsets.

8.1 CONTINGENCY SCENARIOS (Pages 11-14)

If considered necessary, alert nearby aircraft by (a) making maximum use of exterior lights; (b) broadcasting position, FL, and intentions on 121.5 MHz (as a backup, the VHF inter-pilot air-to-air frequency, 123.45 MHz, may be used).

So as you can readily see, 123.45 is a legal ICAO inter-pilot air-to-air frequency. The UK, USA, EU an most developed countries are all signatories to the ICAO Aircraft Operations regulations which includes PANS-OPS, I believe.
~~~~~~~

B. Use of the word ‘Guard’. It is correct to state that the VHF freq 121.5 is called an Emergency or Distress frequency in the regulations. (see below)

Jepp WWT EMERGENCY Page 1

INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION ORGANIZATION (ICAO) Extracted from the following ICAO publications:

RULES OF THE AIR, ANNEX 2

2.3 DISTRESS FREQUENCIES
2.3.1 …. there is a need for designating a particular frequency or frequencies to be used in order that uniformity may be attained on a world-wide basis, and so that a guard may be maintained or set up by as many stations as possible including direction-finding stations, ….....
2.3.5 With respect to survival craft stations the following emergency / distress frequencies are provided:
a. VHF — 121.5 MHz;
b. UHF — 243.0 MHz;
c. HF — 500 kHz, 2182 kHz, 8364 kHz.
...

Jepp WWT EMERGENCY Page 3-4

5.2 RADIOTELEPHONY DISTRESS COMMUNICATIONS
....
1. The foregoing provisions may be supplemented by the following measures;
a. the distress message of an aircraft in distress being made on the emergency frequency
121.5 MHz or another aeronautical mobile frequency, if considered necessary or desirable. Not all aeronautical stations maintain a continuous guard on the emergency frequency

From the above references in the Jepp WWT ICAO regulations, the word ‘guard’ is used mainly to describe the actions of aviators and ground stations in listening out or ‘guarding’ Emergency frequencies for distress calls. Over the years, the emergency frequencies themselves have simply been referred to as ‘Guard Frequency’, because that is what you do; ‘guard’ the frequency.

I hope this answers the questions posed with regard to the 123.45 inter-pilot air-to-air frequency and the use of the word ‘guard’ when referring to the emergency frequencies 121.5 and 243.0. Cheers.

[pilotbear]

Fantastic post, thank you. Probably won't end the b******t though on here, they have nothing better to do than guard the thread.:ok:

[ChristiaanJ]

Magnet77 : Join Date: Jul 2008 - Posts: 1
Inter-pilot air-to-air freq 123.45; and the use of he word "Guard"

What a remarkable first post from a 'newcomer'.

Many thanks, Madam or Sir, and my sincerest respects!
Welcome!

[Lurking123]

Just one small point, the text quoted appears to have been lifted from a regional procedure (albeit the Pacific!!) with links to Annex 10. From Annex 10 Vol II:

5.2.2.1.1.1
Aircraft on long over-water flights, or on flights over designated areas over which the carriage of an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) is required, shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz, except for those periods when aircraft are carrying out communications on other VHF channels or when airborne equipment limitations or cockpit duties do not permit simultaneous guarding of two channels.

5.2.2.1.1.2
Aircraft shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz in areas or over routes where the possibility of interception of aircraft or other hazardous situations exist, and a requirement has been established by the appropriate authority.

5.2.2.1.1.3
Aircraft on flights other than those specified in 5.2.2.1.1.1 and 5.2.2.1.1.2 should guard the emergency frequency 121.5 MHz to the extent possible.

5.2.2.1.1.4
The user of the air-to-air VHF communications channel shall ensure that adequate watch is maintained on designated ATS frequencies, the frequency of the aeronautical emergency channel, and any other mandatory watch frequencies.

5.2.2.1.2
Aeronautical stations shall maintain watch as required by the appropriate Authority.

5.2.2.1.3
Aeronautical stations shall maintain a continuous listening watch on VHF emergency channel 121.5 MHz during the hours of service of the units at which it is installed.


An interesting use of the word guard. Aircraft are required to guard 121.5 whereas ground stations shall 'maintain a continuous listening watch'. I wonder what ICAO perceive as the difference between the two phrases?

[DX Wombat]

From the latest GASIL:
Unauthorised radio transmissions?
Having written the previous
two articles, we became aware of
some unauthorised transmissions
recently heard, on two apparently
separate occasions, on the
emergency frequency 121.5MHz.
However, these seemingly came
from an aircraft!
On both occasions, it seems
that the Distress and Diversion
cell were providing assistance to
inexperienced pilots who had
found themselves in worse
weather than they expected.
While that assistance was being
given, it is reported that a series
of transmissions were made by
people who were apparently pilots
(possibly holding licences issued
outside the UK) suggesting that
the radio exchanges providing
that assistance were interfering
with their own operations.
It is standard procedure
(indeed a requirement) for
airliner crews to listen out on
121.5MHz in addition to their
own operating frequency while
cruising. Some of these crews
may consider that their
convenience is more important
than the necessary training calls
(Practice Pan), or as in this case
even the provision of essential
safety assistance. They are
wrong.The UK Distress and Diversion
service provides direct
assistance to pilots in a manner
unique in the world. Those who
have never experienced the
service, nor learnt about it
during their training, may feel
the frequency is being misused.
However it is not up to them to
attempt to make unauthorised
transmissions. They have the
facility to submit reports if they
are concerned about what they
believe might be a possible
misuse of the frequency.Apparently the interfering
transmissions in at least one of
the reported instances were so
frequent and so aggressive that
the inexperienced pilot found
themselves concentrating more
on the accusations than their
flying. Ladies and gentlemen,[if
you need assistance, you are not
only entitled but encouraged to
ask for it on 121.5MHz, and if
you are subjected to such
unauthorised transmissions
ignore them as much as you can,
Do take note and report them,because it is possible they may
not be received by the D & D
ground stations.

For those of you who may be unaware, GASIL is the official publication of the CAA SRG.

Mods, please would you be kind enough to leave this here for the real culprits to see? If you wish to lock it so that it is "read only" that's fine but it needs to be read by the small number of highly unprofessional people bringing commercial aviation into disrepute and putting people's lives at risk.

[Shunter]

Being a lowly GA pilot, I generally flick between a local ATIS and 121.5 on box 2. I've reported 2 (CAT) aircraft this year for frankly outrageous abuse of the D&D frequency. Casual, unneccessary, sarcastic transmissions on an emergency frequency are not big, nor are they clever. I have no idea whether any action was taken as a result of my reports. I would like to hope so, yet I cynically suspect not.

Flying in command of a large jet does not immunise you from being a complete d1ckhead with your head up your arse when you press the transmit button and revert to schoolboy mode.

[Radar]

:ok:

DX Wombat,

Superb response. As a (as Shunter puts it) lowly GA pilot, but also an ATCO, it never ceases to amaze me how quickly any transmission on 121.5 is met by cries of "you're on guard!!!!" as if the frequency should remain sterile at all times. Said responses often eminate from CAA licence holders as well.

[fmgc]

Heard the classic the other day, some poor sod accidentally called xxx ops on 121.5 (we have all done it) then some smart arse replies "you are on guard" which was obviously misheard as "go ahead" and then this guy unfortunately gives his ETA at XXX etc.

Just wish the guard police would give it a rest!!!

[AMEandPPL]

This thread has been a complete eye opener to me ! Had PPL for 27 years, but never heard of this before !

Next times I go flying I'll certainly be listening out on 121.5 on box 2, so I wonder whom I'll hear ? !

[mona lot]

"so I wonder whom I'll hear"

Well AMEandPPL, you will most probably hear some retard calling their company or worse still doing a PA/talking to cabin crew, followed by about 5 yanks saying "your on Guard". This is why, I am sorry to say, a lot of airline pilots no longer monitor 121.5, it's a complete waste of time.

You will seldom hear any genuine practice pans/emergencies because they will be blocked out by the guard police who are at higher altitudes and therefore have stronger transmissions.

[slam_dunk]

BS !

Guard is still monitored in my company by 90 % of all pilots.
Used guard this morning to find a company a/c that vanished from london ATC. No problem, only a short call, problem fixed.
Guard still has a useful function IMHO !

[sector8dear]

OK guys I admit I have not read all the posts on this thread, but in the UK practice "Pans" are encouraged for training purposes and you have to do it on 121.5 or 243 cos they are the only frequencies D&D have with Auto-Triangulation. Nuff said!

[411A]

121.5...a complete waste of time, with all the UK prats calling for practise PANS at all hours.
A pox on these folks.:yuk:

[Green Guard]

slam_dunk
Guard is still monitored in my company by 90 % of all pilots.

90% of time !?
How much of % do you contribute to Guard Police ?

411A is right. Switch it off unless you really need it. Like no more contact on active fq after a suspicious silence.

[PENKO]

I can live with the argumnet that most calls on 121.5 are pilots who call ops without checking which frequency the actually use. However these asre spaced evenly over the whole week.

Practice pans may be a minority, but they are heavily concentrated in the weekends, especially on sunny sundays... which make them a bigger problem all round.

[Final 3 Greens]

Practice pans may be a minority, but they are heavily concentrated in the weekends, especially on sunny sundays... which make them a bigger problem all round.

You just don't get it, do you Penko?

Practiec Pan and Training Fix are recognised practices in the UK and supported by the UK authorities.

And they don't care about your opinion - and neither do I.

Please go away.

[ShyTorque]

with all the UK prats calling for practise PANS at all hours.
A pox on these folks.

I suggest the 'prats' are those who cannot understand the system or cope with managing their radio volume, even when multi-crew. Perhaps these folk could find a job where their intellect and aptitude aren't so badly challenged. :ugh:

[in my last airline]

Did anyone hear the muslim call to prayer on 121.5 a couple of weeks ago around sunset in Rammadan? Nobody said anything, now thats unusual!
(Over mid west France somewhere). I'm not joking by the way.

[Capt H Peacock]

They were there again today, obstructing a frequency collect call which happened to be conducted in French.

Once again for those who seem to have difficulty with the concept:

Do not transmit on 121.5 unless you are in distress or have an important message concerning the regularity of flight.

ps or play your ipod - you tosser:ugh:

[dont overfil]

This is unbelievably infantile. You must accept the rules of the country you are in or near. If you are a citizen of that country there is a proceedure to get these rules changed if it is deemed neccessary, if you are not, shut up!
Christ this is supposed to be a forum for professionals. I would not dream of criticising another countries rules.
DO.

[niknak]

Possibly misuse of the frequency a few weeks ago, all the same it did make me smile:

"London Centre this is ****05 (non UK operator), what is the frequency?"

"****05, this is London Centre on 121.5, what frequency do you want?"

"I don't know Sir, that is why I am asking you..".

In all seriousness though, we monitor the frequency on the ground and we must hear our colleagues at D & D politely ask pilots if they require assistance several times a day because said crews are not observing correct procedures.

[ManaAdaSystem]

"You must accept the rules of the country you are in or near."

Ditto!

[Foxy Loxy]

Just for the record....

On the day that DX called D&D, I happened to be sat bored at work (RAF Wyton) listening to 121.5. I heard the whole thing from start to finish. I was sat there bored because of unforecast crap wx, which is what caught DX out in the same area. I was appalled at the "You're on Guard!" calls broadcast when it was utterly obvious that she was in difficulties that day. There can be NO excuse for the so-called Guard Polizei to behave in the way that they did. One day, perhaps, they could well cost someone their life simply by blocking out an essential transmission from D&D.

Good on you, DX :ok:

[Reimers]

You just don't get it, do you Penko?

Practiec Pan and Training Fix are recognised practices in the UK and supported by the UK authorities.

And they don't care about your opinion - and neither do I.

Please go away.


Neither do you get it!
Here on PPrune some people like to discuss things they find interesting, care about or find troublesome. Some posts contribute more than others, some merely state again something that was said some pages ago.

If you don't care, why don't you stay away yourself? As this thread now has close to 30000 views, some find it interesting. Several pages of posts have accumulated, and you just pop up and shout at someone who is just as entitled to his opinion as everyone else?

I also find guard annoying to listen to, because of all the noise. Half a century ago someone else found HF a pain to monitor and he invented SELCAL, so that aircraft could pe paged individually. Perhaps today with more and more aircraft not monitoring 121.5 at a reasonable level, purchasing a SELCAL tone emitting device would enable ATC centers to page aircraft they can't reach otherwise.

[golfyankeesierra]

I also get very annoyed by practice pans over the UK, but I also accept the fact it's an established procedure over there and as such we have to live with it.

What I don't understand that so many uk pilots go to lengths to defend it , but must know that all the talking on "the other set" only increase the chances to miss transmissions on the primary and also cause a lot of pilots to turn the volume down on 121,5 (I do, over the UK).

Although I think the UK controllers are the best in the world, little things like this (and f.i. the pre-WW2 quality of the transmitters/mic's, and ground infrastructure on airports, to name a few) sometimes make me feel I am not in Europe ;)

[Lurking123]

Regardless, it is completely un-professional for any pilot to scream "you're on guard" within half a second of any transmission without actually listening to the content of that transmission.

Guys, start behaving like professionals and maybe then you can have a go at the UK procedures.

[doubledolphins]

Just a thought.. When the guard police say "You're on guard!"when they are clearly not in distess them selves who tells them off?

"you're on guard"
"No, you're on guard"
"you're on guard"
"you're on guard"
"you're on guard"
"you're on guard"
"No I'm on guard, and so's my wife!"

Sorry:ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

and you just pop up and shout at someone who is just as entitled to his opinion as everyone else?

I don't agree with some things that are laws in other countries.

However, I respect the other state's right to make these laws and abide by them when in country.

What I am seeing from people like PENKO and you is UK bashing. When you are a UK citizen you are entitled to have an opinion (for you elect the people who make the laws), until then you merely have an opinion, whch is rather different.

I am a holder of a UK R/T licence and am sick of hearing t*ssers on 121.5 clogging up the important emergency frequency with cr*p.

We have all seen the example of DX Wombat and the so called professionals who engage in this guard policing are an utter disgrace, doing their colleagues no favours in creating an impression that the word "professional" relates more to pay than behaviour.

The CAA stats show that the majority of 121.5 transmission come from CAT, the D&D people need the practice and the authorities set the rules.

GYS

You say What I don't understand that so many uk pilots go to lengths to defend it

Probably because we all know people (or know of people) who have been in distress and then been helped by this unique system.

I appreciate your open minded attitude and respect your professional approach.

[ChristiaanJ]

golfyankeesierra,

I take it from your remarks, that you do not have the equivalent of D&D in the Netherlands.
So who do you call when you're "in the sh!t" over there, as DX was?

[Reimers]

What I am seeing from people like PENKO and you is UK bashing. When you are a UK citizen you are entitled to have an opinion (for you elect the people who make the laws), until then you merely have an opinion, whch is rather different.

I have absolutely no idea why me stating that others may voice their opinion on this topic constitutes UK bashing.
Shouting "on guard" does not help things, but voicing one's opinion here might help everyone understanding the other side better. I suggested some way that ATC can get in contact with planes that tune 121.5 but don't listen in. Yes, this is just an opinion, but voiced on this site in a friendlier way than your "go away", which is more of a matter of "bashing" everyone that is not your opinion.

[anengineer]

Surely, after ten pages of debate and quoting of regulations etc, it just boils down to the simple fact that some people get a self-important buzz from telling others off. That little moment of feeling superior is what it's all about for them. It's certainly not restricted to pilots, you see it everywhere. Those that get too addicted to the buzz end up as traffic wardens. :)

[cockney steve]

As this thread now has close to 30000 views, some find it interesting

and, hopefully, some of the viewers have learned that it's better to remain silent and let people wonder if you're stupid, rather tan open your mouth and dispel any doubts.


Yesterday afternoon, two 2 Irish commercial a/c discussed photo opportunities and exchanged names on 121.5 in the eastern atlantic.

In which case a timely reprimand would have been in order.......but I'm sure they would have shut up the instant someone else started to transmit on frequency.


When in Rome.........

[Out Of Trim]

411A - Guess what's going to happen when you're in desperate need of help and call out on 121.5 - about 6 yank prat guard police will shout out you're on guard and you won't get any assistance.

I'd like the guard police types to be intercepted - ordered to land and heavily fined.

Perhaps the problem would then go away!

[Final 3 Greens]

but voicing one's opinion here might help everyone understanding the other side better.

There is no other side here.

Flying through UK airspace is a privilege and requires compliance to UK laws.

If people don't like UK laws, then I suggest they bid for other routes.

[411A]

411A - Guess what's going to happen when you're in desperate need of help and call out on 121.5 ...

First off, I wouldn't dream of using 121.5,
I will simply ask the Flight Engineer to sort it out.
In this way, I have more time to read the newspaper.

A superb arrangement.:E

[golfyankeesierra]

golfyankeesierra,

I take it from your remarks, that you do not have the equivalent of D&D in the Netherlands.
So who do you call when you're "in the sh!t" over there, as DX was?
Christiaan,
Well, it's some time ago I flew stuff without xponder, but if my memory is correct, you can call Amsterdam Info 124.3 (GP station) or Dutchmil 132.25 (military info) for a crossbearing.

In fact, I visited Amsterdam approach a few years ago, and saw on the radarscreen that when anyone transmits two crossbearing lines indicate his position, so maybe every controller has the ability on his own freq.

[ShyTorque]

First off, I wouldn't dream of using 121.5, as all the UK prats are on same.
I will simply ask the Flight Engineer to sort it out.
In this way, I have more time to read the newspaper.

A superb arrangement.

So, nothing to do except whinge, criticise and read the newspaper and two other cockpit crew to help with the radio....

Perhaps you could brief the FE to turn down the volume on box #2 when these troublesome calls interfere with your in-flight relaxation and turn it up again when all is quiet. Maybe get him to read UK procedures out for you someday, too? :D

[BOAC]

In which case a timely reprimand would have been in order.......but I'm sure they would have shut up the instant someone else started to transmit on frequency. - yes, but what does that make me if I do?

[artyhug]

I'd like the guard police types to be intercepted - ordered to land and heavily fined.

Well Out of Trim we, admittedly I am speaking without having canvassed everyones opinion, in the European air defence world would love to oblige. We would however add a caveat before extending our service to said act.

You see I'm afraid that to provide the capacity to expand our services we will have to insist that commercial aircraft somehow find the capacity amoungst their 2 or 3 man flightdeck whilst in the cruise to monitor both the frequency in use and when the seemingly inevitable failure to dial in the next one occurs and before they wander aimlessly across Europe oblivious to the chaos they are causing a common back up frequency which can be used to raise their attention. What this frequency shall be I have no idea. Perhaps we could use ,to pick a random number, 121.5 MHz? It appears all people use it for at the moment is berating those who are trying in vain to use it for its legitimate purpose....

Now I do understand that it seems an onerous task but in between the heart in my mouth headlong sprints to get airborne in less time than I normally spend on the crapper because some flightdeck seems to think it perfectly likely that they can cross Europe without speaking to anyone I somehow manage on a typical sortie to actively use two radio frequencies, monitor two more and have access to two secure means of communication all at the same time in a space the size of the aforementioned disposal unit.

And they don't even feed me bananas anymore so it can't be that hard.... ;)

[Air Defender]

:D I'm with arty but I really like those sprints to get airborne in my two man twin fan aluminium pursuit ship. You guys switch off 121.5 all you want, I'll spend less time sat around studying for my ATPL exams and more time tearing through the London TMA as Air Defence priority.

[lestump]

All this sounds like a contest between some not-so-big boys who play with their taxpayer funded toys. Grow up.

[Gazeem]

shouldn't worry about them,

well at least not on a cloudy day, weekend, bank holiday, after 3.30 pm in the afternoon or above FL 180 :}

[TODALDA]

As one of the country's newest pilots I find this thread bewildering. If the 'guard police' don't want anybody to use 121.5 and proceed to break in to any work being conducted on that frequency, what do they think that frequency is for?

It seems that a number of people abuse the frequency, using it for non emergency and non emergency training purposes. Surely they can be traced and a reminder sent to them regarding proper usage of 121.5. Obviously its use for religious reasons is ridiculous.

To summarise, if I need to use 121.5 then I really do need to use 121.5. I will (hopefully) wait to avoid breaking in, but then I don't need to compete against people having a chat, or others telling me I shouldn't be on the emergency frequency during my emergency.

[ahwhataloadofsugar]

Why don't some of ye D&D guys just name and shame some of the fools know as the idiotic guard police? Its getting more and more common I'm missing calls on box1 because of clowns making stupid comments on 121.5.

[MrBunker]

TODALDA,

Almost right but in the UK it is a recognised and official use of 121.5 to practice emergencies.

For those that don't like it, fair enough, I can see your point, but it's the only frequency (243 notwithstanding) that allows for auto-triangulation which allows real and training fixes to be delivered. Can't see UK plc investing in a countrywide range of transmitters to supplement those used in this capacity already. Shouting out "you're on guard" does nothing to assist and may, just may, mask a real emergency from being heard and thus resolved. I imagine you'd be delighted to know of a downed GA pilot thanks to your maintaining a lovely quiet frequency.

411a. Ever the buffoon. I was unaware you'd managed to obtain another Mitty to sit in your mock-up in the understairs cupboard and play at being your flight engineer. Begs the question which person would be even sadder than you to wish to play your virtual subordinate. Does your mother not need the space to hang the coats of people who visit your parental home?

[Wireless]

Are you really adults banging on about your shiny twin military whatevers tearing up TMAs on QRA and us "flightdeck" types not dialling in frequencies? Sounds like stuff out of a 15 year old in a playground. Didn't expect modesty from that camp. Nothing worse than a big head "there I was" type at the bar.

[TODALDA]

Mr Bunker,

You are quite right and and what I wrote was wrong about practice pans and training fixes (obviously I have made such calls myself recently). Personally I think such calls are a valuable part of training, and the thought of them being interupted by ignorant and apparently arrogant
fellow flyers beggers belief.
(I mis read what I had written on the first post before pressing the button).

[artyhug]

Wireless me old it's called banter. Perhaps if some of the posters on here were subjected to a little more of it in the rarefied world some of the apparent 'Captains' inhabit then this thread wouldn't have stretched to the ten pages of willy wavy I read with an ever growing smirk on my face.

As for 15 year old playground conversation, too right. More to the point long may it continue because if I ever take myself as seriously as you on an anonymous internet forum I will be in need of a good hard slap.

Ps Don't get your knickers in a twist that was banter too.... ;)

[Wiley]

(Donning Constable Plod tall funny hat and oversized boots), I have to say that the Brit Midland pilot who called up his Condor oppo on 121.5 a day or two ago (23rd?) to tell him he'd just taken some roooly great pikkies of the Condor bird and would he like some copies was a new experience for me. Especially when the Condor chappie then proceeded to thank him and pass him his email address - with a full, professional readback of all details from the BMA pilot.

I don't think too many of us are anal enough to object to a "Condor, this is Midland xxx, would you go to 123.45?" on Guard, but passing email addresses and effusive thanks would have a had many joining the ranks of the "GetOrfGuard!" constabulary.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Are you really adults banging on about your shiny twin military whatevers tearing up TMAs on QRA and us "flightdeck" types not dialling in frequencies? Sounds like stuff out of a 15 year old in a playground. Didn't expect modesty from that camp. Nothing worse than a big head "there I was" type at the bar.

Behind the banter is a serious point however. Namely that during any typical day there will be around 5 aircraft in UK airspace which go missing from their control frequency. And many more all around Europe.

Given the lessons learned after 9/11 (or 11/9 as we Brits would say in English :8 ), in many of these cases our air defence folks are having to bring their fighters up to cockpit readiness status. The order to launch may be only a few minutes later. There is no time to just wait and see if communications will be established again, while Captain Dilbert puts down his crossword on the flightdeck and wonders why it is so quiet up there. It is a very serious business and one which is probably here to stay.

If the order to launch is given and an intercept made, the fighter pilots will be using 121.5 to try and regain communications with the intercepted aircraft .... I wonder if the 'Guard Police' will also try and tell them they are on 'Guard' ??

Given the R/T recording and triangulation facilities available (at least in the UK), I would fully support the identification of culprits who misuse 121.5 or berate others who use the frequency, followed up by regulatory action where appropriate. Something needs to be done to clean up the zoo !!

[Wireless]

I agree entirely with the reason. I've had work that's taken me to Lincs and met the QRA team I can fully understand why it's there. I was simply responding to the way the point was made.

On the flip side, when flying for the MCA I experienced how valuable 121.5 can be for a raft things.

[anotheradam]

I make practice calls on 121.5 with my students everytime before I send them on a first solo cross country. I tell them that the time to call 121.5 is whenever they feel that something (usually their nav.) might not be right. One student did use the service when he was returning from a cross country in the summer, and near the Chilterns he got very nervous due to turbulence. He called 121.5 and asked for vectors back to the airfield as he felt that flying and navigating was becomming too much. They vectored him back to base and even liaised with ATC so he didn't have to change frequency before landing. The controller (at the airfield) had a go at me about student's use of non-standard RT. We phoned D&D and they said that his RT was fine, that the fact he called them was to his credit, and once there is a problem of any nature it doesn't matter (especially with student pilots) how they get the message across. The student said that while he was very nervous before calling D&D, as soon as they replied to his initial call, it was like "the voice of an angel come to sooth his fear".

So, sorry if you have to listen to practice calls, but it is an especially useful training tool, and lets students know that calling D&D isn't a last resort, but a first port of call when that "things start to go wrong" ball starts rolling.

So there.:D

[Admiral346]

I find, in the last two to three months it has gotten much quieter on 121.5.

Now that might be because people have stopped babbeling on that freq, or that the guard police has fianlly understood how many they are affecting who couldn't even hear anybody call, or it might just be for the fact that I have decided to turn the volume on the 2nd set so low, I can hardly hear anything on it.

Nic

PS: I would still recommend to Air Berlin to get their own company freq!

[oxenos]

I see on another thread ( since closed ) that a Lufthansa made a Mayday call recently near Malta. Did he use the freq. he was on, or did he risk the wrath of the Guard police and go to 121.5 ? The G.P. would probably drown out a Mayday with screams of "Guard".

[spannerless]

I think this whole issue is a pretty daft debate!

There will always be those who accidental transmit on the frequency but by blindly shouting out 'On Guard' in annoyance it tanter mount to 'Aggravated flying' perhaps we should introduce a points system? :E currently two aggravated driving convictions could see you banned for a year perhaps we should do that with the guard police :E

I can remember being interrupted by just such a person after intercepting a ditching helicopter and trying to catch him before he went for a swim only to be greeted by the dulcet tones of a guard policeman

Had this idiot waited a few seconds before jumping in and blocking the frequency I was on the end of this pilots ultimate rescue at the time (R122 22 Sqn Valley) what a prat!

Luckily for the pilot he was close to the Morecombe rig and just happened to have a support vessel close and free to help.

There ends the lesson I feel?

Don’t do it!

Wait see if it’s a genuine call, hopefully a controller will intervene if the call persists!

What’s not acceptable is so called professionals jumping in on someone’s unfortunate guffaw however annoying it may seem!

A piece of good advice from an earlier post:-

I just turn down the volume of Guard low, very low. Sort of like turning your wife down so you can hear the TV. After we coast out of Europe, and the nuisance jabbering ends, the volume goes up.

:D