Daily Telex, 16 May...WARNING...

[Apple Tree Yard]

For those of you who have not been around as long as I, I suggest you take note of TT's comment in the daily telex where he states that 'tough decisions will have to be made' due to fuel prices. I can assure you that his intent is for those 'tough decisions' to involve our conditions. Best start considering what collective/individual action you are all willing to take because I assure you, the storm is coming. I would add that after 14 years without a pay raise, nothing short of an improvement in my conditions is suitable. Perhaps TT can start the process by renouncing any further management bonuses or pay raises....you know, that old 'lead from the front' thing...

[canuck revenger]

This on the same day that Delta just agreed a 17% pay rise, a further 3 % per year for the next 3 years, and equity in the company for it's pilots. Further, Emirates pilots have just been awarded a further 12 % raise. I suggest that TT takes his concerns and peddles them elswhere. This is the situation you get yourself in when you grind your aircrew down for well over a decade. A bit late to expect any of us to show anything other than contempt for any attempt at squeezing us. As Clint Eastwood said....'go ahead punk, make my day'... :E

[ALPHA FLOOR]

But didnt you read in his update that "this week the price rose to a frightening" (level)..... "definitely now reached crisis levels"!

Oh No, will I still have a job on Monday, will the sun come up tomorrow, what am I to do? Gasp!

We have moved from expectation management to fear mongering, both very good techniques perfected and used succesfully in Stalinist times.

What will they say when it hits $200 p/b -:mad:er's

BA Boss Walsh gave back his bonus yesterday, lets see if our galant leaders will do the same? To quote THE MANAGEMENT "here's to my bonus"

AFL

[missingblade]

Fuel prices up or not ( and surcharges take care of most of it anyway ) this corporation makes obscene amounts of money and it is time the workers see their fair share of it.

The VERY MINIMUM acceptable is payrises that keep up with inflation EVERY YEAR.

AOA DID YOU HEAR THAT!!!!

[leading_edge_device]

QF get a good pay deal in the latest EBA and employee work groups in Oz are not accepting anything less than 4-6% annual wage increases to cover inflation, not to mention the soaring cost of living these days!

The quote from the idiot box the other night rings true......

Fight to stop the degradation in quality of life. At the very least we are now all years behind in Qual. of life due to inflation.

Bugger what are we in for?

[ALPHA FLOOR]

"Best start considering what collective/individual action you are all willing to take because I assure you, the storm is coming."

With ref to the quotation above , here's a plan:

Step 1) cut KJP's 350K++ p/m package in half that'll start the ball rolling.

Step 2) refer to step 1

AFL

[christep]

The VERY MINIMUM acceptable is payrises that keep up with inflation EVERY YEAR.And, of course, the corresponding pay cuts in the several years in the past decade when prices have fallen.

[rick.shaw]

Ok Christep. I'll bite. For a SLF type, you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with our careers.

Just wondering if you took a pay cut during those years??

An interesting argument, but flawed in many ways. Remember, there are statistics, and statistics. For a start, the overall inflation has exceeded any deflation over the past decade. In particular, the last several months have been brutal.

Additionally, the deflation you speak of had some interesting causes. Not least of which was SARS, during which CX staff willingly took leave without pay to save the company millions of dollars. For those that were tempted to resist, they were (in true CX/Swire management style) gently reminded who would probably be the first to go in the case of any redundancies.

Thought for the day Christep....'A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.'

As for the thread itself... Yet again the veiled threats are starting to rear their ugly heads. Not to forget how many millions CX spends on consultants who come up with ways to screw us.

[christep]

My pay is unchanged for over 6 years now, and my interest is more as a shareholder than as a customer.

There aren't many jobs where simply doing the same job for longer automatically gets you more money; most that do are in the public sector for some reason.

As I understand it, when you are talking about increases, that means moving all the points on the pay scale upwards, in addition to the increase you get automatically each year just for holding on to exactly the same job.

Those of you who have never worked in any other field may not appreciate how unusual this is and how envious many people are of you getting, say, 15% more money now than you did 6 years ago for doing exactly the same job (in addition to any of these other increases that you wish for).

[water check]

Christep...frankly I/we don't really care what you think. The reality is that we have seen our spending power down almost FIFTY percent over the past decade. That is the only fact that matters. I also suggest that you reread your post and try and see how patronizing it is. I don't need an explanation on economics from you or any other person who is not involved in the field of aviation. It is a unique business, and a unique career.

[christep]

I also suggest that you reread your post and try and see how patronizing it is.Pot meet kettle...

[jonathon68]

It will be interesting to see what new adjectives CCD can come up with, as oil goes through $200 this winter!

At long last I have a reason to read the Friday telex again.

I used to find some amusement in "Cx Weekly" counting the ever-increasing number of photos of Phil the Racist, but sadly that sport has ended.

[mr did]

Makes you wonder why the types who think pilots are paid too much just don't go out and learn how to fly. Cant be that hard can it Chris? Rhymes with banker.

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

The Opening lines of each weekly telex should be wearing thin by now. The Fuel price will continue to go up, sure. CX Multiple Billion HKD profit each year will still go up. Why cry poor?? It's far from it.

[Loopdeloop]

Sleeve, you win the prize for the best name on this forum however, christep is doing his level best to earn your more common vernacular!

[Cider30]

Christep

Those of you who have never worked in any other field may not appreciate how unusual this is and how envious many people are of you getting, say, 15% more money now than you did 6 years ago for doing exactly the same job (in addition to any of these other increases that you wish for).


I don't know what your line of business is, but this is known in the airline business as seniority.

It works both ways. In times of expansion everybody would jump ship and find some other airline offering a bit more if it wasn't for seniority. So it works in favour of the airline in times of expansion and in favour of the pilots in times of layoffs.

If it wasn't for this pay scale system, airlines would most likely be spending extra billions training guys coming from a similar job at another airline, and the ups and downs in this industry as far as pay goes would be severly amplified. (As if it is not bad enough already)

If any airline management thought this pay scale system was a bad idea, they would have done away with it years ago. Fact is they love it when the world is short on pilots, since the majority of most airline pilot groups are tied to the company for that very reason. On top of the pay scale seniority many other airlines have seniority bidding systems, so for them it is not just income, it is lifestyle as well.

Just my 2 cents

Cider30

[Sqwak7700]

Not to mention, Chrisstep thinks that we get a raise every year. You are wrong my man. We start at well bellow what our profession should earn. Unlike you, when you start at a new company, you start at a decent pay. We start at the bottom of the seniority list, at much lower pay, because we know that eventually we will see higher pay WHERE IT SHOULD bE.

The Airline companies love the seniority system. Like mentioned above, it saves them gaggles in training costs and retention. They would fight to the death any change to it. Without it, sure, pilot salaries might not rise as high, or maybe go even higher. But I can assure you that starting slaries would be MUCH higher, not 22,000 USD a year like some majors in the US.

As far as I'm concerned, the yearly increments I get are overdue adjustments to bring my salary up to where it should be when I started. :D

[AA717driver]

Pilot pay (in the U.S.) has fallen nearly 50% indexed to inflation in the past 15 years while...er, excuse me, whilst ;) executive pay has risen on the order of several hundred percent.

I don't believe Adam Smith would welcome the economic oligarchy that is emerging worldwide.TC

[christep]

Makes you wonder why the types who think pilots are paid too much just don't go out and learn how to fly. Cant be that hard can it Chris?Absolutely - unfortunately I only worked this out when I was about 35, which is a bit late to make the switch. If I'd worked out when I was 18 that I could get paid about 5 times per working hour what I'm actually getting paid (which is not a bad salary at all by the terms of the business I am in) then I'd have been there now. From the attitudes displayed here I'm sure I'd fit right in.

The executive pay A717driver refers to is only for a tiny proportion of people at the top of businesses - there are far less of them than there are airline pilots. For the vast bulk of us who are junior to middle manages times have been just as hard as for pilots.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Could have, would have, should have......but didnt!!

[Cider30]

If I'd worked out when I was 18 that I could get paid about 5 times per working hour what I'm actually getting paid (which is not a bad salary at all by the terms of the business I am in) then I'd have been there now.


Christep,
So you think it is just a matter of signing up, then your career is made. Please tell me you are not that ignorant.

Even in your business there must be failures. If I had a dime for every pilot that didn't make it to a decent airline job, got furloughed for years, washed out of pilot training or even worse, died doing what they loved; well I won't go there.

I know plenty of guys who made the decision to become a pilot at age 18 and at age 35 they still haven't made it past 50K per year. If you think just making your mind up is getting you anywhere in the airline business, I seriously doubt you would "have been there now".

Cider30

[Numero Crunchero]

Ok, I'll bite but I rather suspect it is a bait.

Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Consultants, Firemen, Waiters etc etc. People whose pay does and has gone up over years for doing exactly the same work. Salaries generally go up faster than the real rate of inflation, not the publicly declared ex food and ex oil figures. Well that is the case in most capitalist societies.

Now onto your salary - you must love your job to have stuck with it for 1/5th of my salary. Almost everyone I know who failed at being a pilot has gone on to far greater and financially rewarding things - a mate of mine now earns over $500K AUD per year as an anesthesiologist. Mates that went into merchant banking earn 7 digits. I finished my MBA in 99 - the average Starting! salary for those graduates was $140-150K US but if you were good at finance it was closer to $200K - but of course I decided to pursue the lucrative, financially limiting career of aviation!

I am constantly amazed at the personal and financial sacrifices made by my colleagues to get to the same place I am at now - sacrifices people do not have to make to anywhere near the same extant in 90% of careers.

I appreciate that you are entitled to your opinion - but coming in half cocked is just plain annoying. This bulletin board is the only effective means that CX/KA pilots can have a good whinge about the company - unfortunately it is open to the public but that doesn't mean we welcome their comments. If I want someone to tell me I am an overpaid w@nker I can ring my mate SAD or any nearby zoologist.

[LapSap]

Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Consultants, Firemen, Waiters etc etc. People whose pay does and has gone up over years for doing exactly the same work.

I'm glad you didn't include HK ATC, NC. :{

[Numero Crunchero]

Those of us that are on A scales are on salaries that were published around 1993.
Those of us that are on B scales are on salaries that were published around 1990 - 1991.
Those of you who joined on CoS 08 - I will have to dig a little deeper as my records only go back to 1989 so you are on the equivalent to some pre 1989 salary level.

[BusyB]

A-Scale salaries re-published 1999:confused:

[bekolblockage]

What hope do we in the aviation industry have, when a decade or so of price cutting has the punters convinced they can fly on an extremely sophisticated peice of machinery, flown by highly trained and tested crew under the control of an air traffic service that considers a risk of something by 10 to the minus 9 is excessive - for the price of a few burgers.
Where will it end? What will cause the turn around?
I dunno. Maybe this belongs on the "greed" thread.

P.S. I plead guilty to trying to take a 1p Ryanair flight. It was cancelled. More fool me.

[Kitsune]

Frankly christep, you should have done better at school, then you wouldn't be stuck in such a ****ty little job; however if the cap fits, please feel welcome to wear it you tiresome little man. :cool:

[Guru]

In an office job, the most common way to increase your pay is to show a higher level of performance than your colleagues. A healthy level of competition amongst the workforce is of course benefitial but unfortunately human nature dictates that far too often people resort to back-stabbing, politics and even sabotage against their own ranks in order to achieve that aim.

If it wasn't obvious before, it should be by now: airline pilots are not supposed to try to out-perform their colleagues in pursuit of a bigger pay cheque. How many ways are there of 'doing a better job' than another pilot which doesn't reduce the safety margin of the operation? Imagine that our pay is correlated to how I am able to push back on time whilst carrying a technical defect or how much savings on fuel we can individually make for the company during a typhoon.

The pay increments based on seniority is the company's promise to me that the bottomline is that I only need to be concerned with flying safely. Doing the job more efficiently and with finesse is a matter of my professional pride.

[christep]

Frankly christep, you should have done better at school, then you wouldn't be stuck in such a ****ty little jobBetter than an honours degree from Cambridge? Please enlighten me as to what that is.

My job is absolutely fine thanks. And I earn as much as a CX Captain (as far as I can tell, B-scale at least, let's say US$200K). But I do have to work rather more than the 60-80 hours a month or thereabouts that seems to be the workload if you do long haul.

[christep]

The pay increments based on seniority is the company's promise to me that the bottomline is that I only need to be concerned with flying safely. Doing the job more efficiently and with finesse is a matter of my professional pride.I don't disagree with the principle of this. But my point is that you don't seem to appreciate how lucky you are (once on the ladder) to have such a system.

[BusyB]

Christep,

You used to give quite reasoned statements about an industry in which you are not involved but are obviously interested in. Unfortunately your comments now are becoming increasingly naive. Do you really think that flying hours are the only duty hours we do? There is pre-flight preparation, post flight duties, standby, simulator and other ground duties that are not reflected in flying hours.

I am not interested in your occupation, whatever it is, but with your qualifications if you don't like it I suggest you work to improve it. As a last resort you leave, as pilots do.:ok:

[christep]

Where will it end?The answer to this is clear. It will end in fully automated aircraft and control systems. The only question is how long it will take to get there.

My guess is about 50 years.

[christep]

Do you really think that flying hours are the only duty hours we do? There is pre-flight preparation, post flight duties, standby, simulator and other ground duties that are not reflected in flying hours.Not at all. So please enlighten me. How many hours does a long haul captain do "at the office" each month? (Standby is a bit of a special case, so it would be helpful to see that split out)

[Phlap1]

Christep
theres another not insignificant amount of time spent away from
family and friends. You can plan a social life, we are away half
of each month, unpaid availablity away from home.
How many hours are you out of your home each month is
another perspective you don't consider.

[christep]

Christep
theres another not insignificant amount of time spent away from
family and friends. You can plan a social life, we are away half
of each month, unpaid availablity away from home.
How many hours are you out of your home each month is
another perspective you don't consider.How many hours a month do you think you get at home in a job where you run up enough miles to renew Diamond (80 segments or 120K miles) in 6 months (as I did for several years until recently)? If you are in a job in Hong Kong paying CX captain type salaries (in banking, tech, whatever) then you will often only be at home 7 or 8 days each month. I am pretty sure that the majority of expats in Hong Kong earning over, say, HK$100K/month spend at least half of each month out of town - who do you think those guys are in your premium cabins?

[Apple Tree Yard]

Christep, why don't we do each other a favour? I won't pretend to understand your profession.....and you stop pretending you understand ours....ok? Taking that a step further, it means that anything I have to say about your profession is worthless...and anything you have to say about mine is.... :ugh:

[Sand Man]

christep, sounds like you suffer from 'the grass is always greener' syndrome which most of us know that this is usually not the case.

[mooney59]

Are you spouse to a Cabin crew, that would explain 500 + posts in the forum?
Other than that I can't imagine why you would take such an intrest.
Being an Ex DM dosen't lend credence too.

[christep]

Christep, why don't we do each other a favour? I won't pretend to understand your profession.....and you stop pretending you understand ours....ok? Taking that a step further, it means that anything I have to say about your profession is worthless...and anything you have to say about mine is...No - sorry. If being such an incredibly narrow-minded individual works for you then good luck to you. But I choose to take an interest in everything that forms a significant part of my life (and some things that don't). I'm quite happy to engage in discussion with anyone who wishes to comment on and/or learn more about my business (telecoms as it happens).

Running up well over a million miles so far with you guys driving (and spending quite a bit of my own money on it), and from time to time having quite a chunk invested in your business's success as a shareholder, means that Cathay has been a significant element in my life for the last decade.

And no I don't suffer from "grass is always greener" syndrome - I've done pretty well out of life so far, no major complaints all things considered, but generally you can only have one or two careers in life and there are many more than that which I feel I would like to have tried. Yours being one of them.

[GE90115BL2]

Guys and Girls.

Just put that tosser into your IGNORE list.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's much better.

IGNORE THE MAN:ok:

[iceman50]

Christep

Are you a failed Swire Prince then?? Is that the reason for your whining on this forum. Quite frankly we are not interested in having a discussion with you. Call it narrow minded - always a good argument that - claiming superiority, we are NOT interested in your opinions.

:cool:

[SAD]

NC you called yourself a w@#nker not me. Overpaid??? We are on the same payscale and I am some increments ahead of you.

[Numero Crunchero]

I genuinely feel sorry for you SAD. If my past mistakes are all that keeps you going then god help you when I no longer work for CX. You obviously know who I am so I invite you to call me - my number hasn't changed since we were on the GC together!

[ColdWar]

(The following may not be representative of the general CX view)

Your remarks give new meaning to the phrase “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.”

Cantabrigian (Honours), you say.I happen to know a bit about the rigorous standard of scholarship that that entails. However, you seem to have strayed, significantly, from that standard. You seem to have taken a few bits of information and drawn a blanket (and in this case, erroneous) conclusion from them.

Being an airline passenger, and reading the SCMP, and feeling that you know the story of being an airline pilot, is a bit like watching a show on your personal entertainment system, and suggesting that you now know everything about the movie industry.

Simplistic analyses usually do nothing so much as reveal how much one is oblivious of (or ignorant of) a situation.

It is quite clear that there are factors involved, about which you have no idea; but you seem unprepared to simply say, “Oh. I didn’t know that. That does make a difference.” I suspect that your bold statements have issued a cheque that your scant fund of information can’t cash, and you don’t know how to extricate yourself, gracefully, from this minefield (please pardon the mixed metaphor).

You equate your US$200,000 annual salary to that of a Captain’s, and you point out that, while very few executives make very large salaries, there are thousands of pilots around the world wanting a great deal of money. Are you aware that, of the 2300 pilots at CX, the vast majority can’t even relate to the kind of money you make. You seem to know what a senior CX Captain makes (although, contrary to your claims in previous posts, most don’t have the cushy HK tax rates, or the housing allowance), so you must also know what a CX FO makes, and what a CX SO makes (almost all were Captains, before coming to CX). You say that you are a mid-level executive, earning your US$200K. Presumably, those above you are earning more. Why, then, do you think that at CX, those at the top should not earn more than you, a mid-level executive? And why do you fail to mention that mid-level CX pilots earn a fraction of what you do?

You remark on how few hours pilots work, compared with you. Do you have any idea why pilots work the monthly hours that they do? Surely, you must know that pilots are restricted as to the number of hours they can work in a month. Do you have any idea why? Do you have any knowledge about the dynamics of fatigue (and I’m not talking about a rigorous board meeting, where you finally decide that you all need a break)? Do you know what it is like to man a 13-hour night flight (other than to sit in First Class, and watch the tele)? Unless you are a heart surgeon (and if you are, more power to you!), do you know what it is like to have responsibility for the lives of 400 people (a bit different from having responsibility for the money of 400 people)? Food for thought.

Incidentally, what is your mandatory retirement age, and how often must you pass a rigorous physical examination? Oh, and how often do you have to prove your competence, under the watchful eyes of an examiner (failing to lead the company to financial ruin doesn’t count)?

I seem to recall that Cambridge required answers to most of the questions before drawing a conclusion.

All of the foregoing is an attempt to suggest that, if you want to present yourself as someone knowledgeable about the lot of CX pilots, you actually sit down and talk, at length, to some CX pilots, with a view to learning about the pilots’ situation, rather than telling them that, “they don’t know how lucky they are”.
Of course you won’t get a totally unbiased picture, but you will reduce your chances of sounding like you got your information from the Cliff Notes version of What it’s like to be a CX pilot.

I was going to suggest that you accept Apple Tree Yard’s very attractive proposition, but I see that you have already declined.

With all due respect,

CW

[Kitsune]

KJP has got an honours degree in maths....... says it all really doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[Truckmasters]

Last time I held it, I only needed to do 4 round the world business class trips in one year. When I stopped flying as SLF it then took me over 2 years to lose it despite not using it at all.
Based on my personal experience
I'd suggest to you that Diamond is actually quite easily achievable for a true travelling professional. It all depends on whether you are paying or the company is.
For instance many are paid an allowance and they choose to pocket the difference between an economy fare and the fare they are paid for.
I know a number of Professionals and consequently it suggest's to me that my opinion of how easy diamond is achievable is still correct.

60-80 hour office working weeks. Yep I've done them too.
I'd suggest to you that the only difference in your level of stress in that style of job vs an airline pilot is --- NOTHING . You might have a different type of stress ie office politics/ trading/ fatigue. Otherwise we are both equally worn out at the end of the month.
The other standard arguement. The accountant/lawyer/doctor has to read changes to legislation/operating procedures in their own time. Guess what - so does the airline pilot.
I've had 60-80 hour rosters that only give me 8-10 days off a month (that equals 4-5 weekends in a month - what a suprise)

SLF vs the front seat. (I've done both)
My opinion - It's much easy in the back. You can get on tired and go straight to sleep if you wish. You get the choice of what timezone to put yourself on. You can be drunk or sober. Sometimes you can't, you might have a presentation to work on. But at the end of the day you have choice if you manage your time.

I still think that the best description of this airline job is
Lock yourself in a small bathroom for 16 hours and turn on some radio hash background noise at a loud evel that requires you to want to use earplugs for fatigue and hearing protection. You are not allowed to have anything to drink (simulates the drying effect). You are only allowed 2 small TV dinners in that 16 hours.

Finally Pay rates - You suggest the airline pilots are one of the few jobs that have pay increments to match years worked. Well the other industries I've worked suggests to me that this practice is spread wider than you might perceive.

But at the end of the day this is all an opinion, just like yours is.

[quadspeed]

Christep....

As I understand it, when you are talking about increases, that means moving all the points on the pay scale upwards, in addition to the increase you get automatically each year just for holding on to exactly the same job.

Those of you who have never worked in any other field may not appreciate how unusual this is and how envious many people are of you getting, say, 15% more money now than you did 6 years ago for doing exactly the same job

I'll gladly make a deal with you. Allow me to play by the same rules as you do. I WANT to be able to offer my services to the company offering the best package, I want to be a free comodity.

I've got a couple of friends working as lawyers for fairly decent lawfirms; and their employer knows that if they don't pay them market rate, they'll join someone who does. The new company will look at these guys' experience, be that 4 years of international finance deals or ship brokerage, and indeed pay them their net worth based on that experience. What they're not gonna do is to offer them a starting salary 100,000HKD/month less than their current emplyer, with the promise of a rising pay-scale which in 18 years time will put them back to their current salary.

But that's the reality for us. If no airline had a preset rising payscale, we would be free to move between airlines and play them against each other in hopes of getting the best deal from our experience. While I realize that you do not understand it, the job we do in our first year is not the same job we do in our tenth year, and that very experience is what is keeping our aiplanes on time, keeping our fuel burn to a minimum, and what is keeping us from repetedly making the same costly mistakes over and over again.

You're comparing apples and oranges here, because you do not understand the pivotal importance of seniority. Remove the payscales and seniority system, and you might even have a point.


.

[parabellum]

My brother in law got a 1/1 or equivalent at Cambridge too, went on to MSc, PhD and is a brilliant academic and untouchable in his chosen field but sadly has a woefully inadequate grasp of reality.

[4PW's]

My bro is with CX, which is why I'm reading this thread; I'm with SQ. Bona fides out of the way, this guy is a lost idiot. Ignore him. He will eventually be recalled to his village. What was my clue? You mean, apart from his first post? Pretending to speak for the rest of the travelling public in terms of acceptance of pilotless airplanes had a bearing, as did self-aggrandizing about Cambridge. Go back to your village, idiot.

[christep]

Pretending to speak for the rest of the travelling public in terms of acceptance of pilotless airplanes had a bearing, as did self-aggrandizing about Cambridge.I've never claimed to speak for anyone except myself. I am sure driverless planes will happen, in the same way that driverless trains have, and driverless cars will (probably sooner than driverless planes). The only question in my mind is when. Obviously you guys have to hope that it is not within your career (which I think is a good bet), but I can see no plausible case for saying it won't happen eventually.

And on the Cambridge question, I didn't bring the matter up - someone else suggested that I might have not achieved much academically, so I was simply putting him right.

[ColdWar]

Would you say that it is fair and accurate to state that, although you have spawned this debate, you respond very quickly, when you think you can score points, but ignore arguments which seem to pose a problem for your position?

CW

[willnotcomply]

I propose that we all use a little UNITY, by not responding to this tosser any more. He is giving me the sh1ts! Can we be united?:rolleyes:

[Kelvs]

I can also foresee automated robotic mid-level paper pushers being not too far off!

[Buttie Box]

Personally I cannot see the fully automated thingy happening. If something goes wrong, I want someone up the front...hang on, I mean in the flight deck who has as much interest in staying alive as I have.

Back to thread, yes, the fuel warnings are hard to take at face value what with hedging and surcharges to take into account. Hard times have a habit of being used against the workforce. When we have to tighten our corporate belts, we are asked for cutbacks, but how many are returned once the lean times are over? Even in the forces we had Leave Travel Warrants. These were then changed to a 'Get You Home' Scheme, which meant that no-one was surprised when a couple of years later the admin side were able to use the amended title to remove the entitlement from the married personnel living close to base - they didn't need to 'get home' as they were already there.

Personally, in the last 7 years or so I've seen 49 people fired with no D&G procedure (wasn't it 52?), been treated like a 10 year old by trainers/checkers who hide their inability behind a management position, and have seen my health deteriorate with long-term fatigue. Nothing would surprise me; like others I will be squeezed until such time as I choose to move on.

The Box

[Dragon69]

Christep,

Nice thing about an anonymous forum, I can say I am Superman however no one will be able to discount it, much like your Cambridge claim. Most likely you went to Cantridge but were too stupid to realize the difference.

[parabellum]

The main reason that the flight deck will never, ever be fully automated on a commercial pax aircraft is security and nothing to do with advancing technology.

It would be all too easy for terrorists to disable the legitimate ground control and substitute it's own with disastrous results, (and software designed to prevent this happening can also be disabled).

As long as aircraft leave the ground and contain human fare paying pax they will have human pilots aboard.

[411A]

We start at well bellow what our profession should earn.

Wrong.
You start at what the company is willing to pay, nothing more, nor less.
Don't like it?
Apply somewhere else.

OR, you could be just like the BA pilots...stomp your feet, propose 'union' action, then retire to the corner, defeated...just like the whimps that the BA pilots are, and likely will remain.

[Kane Toed]

I propose that we all use a little UNITY, by not responding to this tosser any more.... Can we be united?Don’t be ridiculous. We’re pilots.