easyJet to BA: how is it?

[The African Dude]

Hi chaps/chapesses, has anybody here made the jump either from eJ to BA or BA to eJ, and how have they found the change in lifestyle? Would be interested to hear a comparative view of the two SH lifestyles, obviously tours and nightstops are not the norm in eJ but other than that?... *curious*

[ChocksAwayUK]

Glad you made this thread African Dude :ok: - if I slip through the BA selection net next month I'll have a decision to make and it's not very clear cut at the moment.

I'd be most interested to hear from any ex-ezJetters who've gone BA. Any regrets? Or none at all? Financially, for me, its much of a muchness (over a long-term view), though perhaps a tad better at BA - so I suppose a lot of it comes down to whether you enjoy the tours/nightstops and the people you work with (a big plus at EZ I think).

What's the general vibe at work like? I have a concern that, as a generalisation, BA crews will be bit old, stuffy and set in their ways having potentially been in the same company for 30 years (I suppose I'm talking about Captains here!). Not so at EZ, I find. But maybe I'm way off the mark.

One appeal of BA is actually getting to see a bit of the cities I'll fly to. Do you enjoy the tours, are crews usually sociable? Or is the reality more likely to be being stuck with a grumpy old Captain and the CC escaping asap, and wishing you were at home. Does the novelty wear off quickly?

Another major appeal of course is the possibility of changing fleets and route structures throughout the career.

So, any insightful comments from those who've gone to BA from EZ would be most welcome.

[Hand Solo]

There's not that many 30+ years Captains anymore, not that length of service is a measure of their character any more than the colour of their hair. Anyway, you need the old codgers to tell you where the cheap beer and food is.:ok:

Tours are good, Captains are generally good, cabin crew are generally best forgotten about, you'll rarely see them off the aircraft no matter how nice you are to them. There are plenty of ex easy chaps in BA, I'm sure one will be along shortly to give you a comparison but by and large we don't seem to hear too many complaints so it can't be that bad!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I joined easyJet over 4 years ago from a BA franchise. More interestingly, I joined with a top quality guy in his mid-thirties who had previously been a Captain at Midland on the A320 then went to BA for a few years - 757/767 followed by an FO slot on the A320. We were both taken on as direct entry captains and have really enjoyed our time at easyJet. I speak to him regularly and, quite surprisingly frankly, he is still glad he made the move. He just got worn out with the culture of negativity as he described it. He felt like a small cog in an enormous machine and rarely flew with the same skipper twice. Also, he is a family man and was away from home too much - even on short haul. There is no doubt that he made a big loss on the pension as we give a dismal 7% into the kitty whereas he was on the final salary scheme at BA (long gone now I gather!). He now works 50% and has a great life doing other work in his 2 weeks per month off.


We also have several ex-longhaul 747/777 Captains with BA who hit 55 under the old rules and came here. To a man they all enjoy it, but are nonetheless blessed with some serious pensions that just about exceed their salaries at easyJet - nice work if you can get it! There are very few pilots at easyJet who do not enjoy their job, and that really does say something. Could you do it for 35 years? Well, that is another question altogether!

The huge advantages of easyJet are the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern and the fact you hardly ever go away from home. Offsetting that, you would be a very brave person indeed to be a 24 year-old Airbus pilot and turn down a job offer from BA. In all honesty, if it was my son and he was that age, I could not, hand on heart, tell him to stay at easyJet when a full career, and all the potential variety that could offer, awaits at BA. Just a personal view - but there it is!

[Tommy Tipee]

Norman

Thanks for another well informed posting.
I'm interested in your comment about whether it is a sustainable lifestyle over 35 years.
When do you reckon burnout will occur?

[Coffee Black None]

The average shelf life of a commuting easyJet pilot seems to be around 5 to 7 years. Bit longer if working from base.

There are however a couple of big challenges ahead. New bases without any local crew thus a lot more nightstopping, long positioning days and the possible closure of the smaller bases. Don't want to think about a random roster.

[Wingswinger]

I'd like to echo what NSF has said. I am an ex-BA captain who had to leave under the old retirement age rule (six months too old to stay). I've been with EZY just over two years and I enjoy it. No whinging culture, no back-biting, no inter-department jealousies, just folks coming in to do their jobs in as friendly and as co-operative a manner as they can. The SOPs are less prescriptive, no part of manual flyng is discouraged or banned and there is plenty scope for concepts such as common sense, airmanship and initiative. I had more personal satisfaction in my first 17 months with EZY than I did in 17 years in BA. It helps, of course, that the company is still expanding and creating opportunities. In sum, I work harder than I did in BA, I'm paid less but I enjoy it more, and - this is the crucial bit - I am treated much more like a captain than I ever was in BA.

Sadly, I don't have a megapension like some of my erstwhile colleagues to whom NSF refers (only 17 years, you see, preceded by 17 years in the RAF) so I'm still full-time and will be for the foreseeable future.

I do miss the nightstops in 5-star city-centre hotels, though!

[G--SPOT]

I can't speak as someone who joined from EZ, but I just want to set the record straight on one thing. There are a lot of assumptions and rumours about BA Captains being miserable old farts. Can I just say that in general those days are gone (with a few exceptions). Most skippers, on short haul certainly and more so on long haul, are a great bunch to fly with and will certainly show the sights to any new joiners. The atmosphere on the flight deck is generally very relaxed but proffesional.

By the way, I'm not a skipper, so I'm not trying to big myself up!!:ooh:

[dlav]

Agree entirely with G--SPOT.

There are some great people on the airbus at LHR, theres alot of fun to be had :ok:

[ChocksAwayUK]

Some very insightful thoughts here. Thanks everyone, though I have to say that you're not making my potential decision any easier!

I can certainly appreciate the benefit of an experienced captain downroute. My recently retired Dad certainly showed me the sights in BKK and HKG. (And then I decided I wanted to be an airline pilot ;) )

Keep 'em coming.

(By the way NSF - I recently had the pleasure of flying with someone matching the description of the chap in your first paragraph. It was certainly interesting to get his take on the matter.)

[ETOPS]

ChocksAwayUK

Very old BA Capt here ( 20,000hrs+ in 30 years :eek: )

The big difference you will notice is size - 3300 pilots out of nearly 50,000 employees. On my own fleet (747) we have 800 pilots - that's more than some international flag carriers have in their whole airline ! The result is that you would come across all possible types in a career here. But bear this in mind - there is no such thing as a "typical" Nigel anymore. A huge proportion of BA pilots have been recruited as DEPs - thus they are ex BMI,Ryanair, TCX etc etc plus lot's from the military and not forgetting a sizeable overseas contingent from Europe and beyond.

Total number of ex Hamble BEA/BOAC cadets? Less than 200.

Of those - how many stuffy old farts? A couple I must admit :(

Chances of you ever flying with one? Zero :D

A huge question for you is how long can you keep flying your EZ Airbus/737 on SH European routes. 5 years? 10 years? 35 years?

In BA you would have the chance to fly the same types but with tours and later in your career swap to longhaul and (if you didn't like it) change back to SH.

The downside is seniority - joining now only makes sense if you are young and are prepared to bide your time waiting for people like me to "drop" - and I've got potentially 10 years left :ok:

Last point is important. Every pilot I've spoken to says the same thing. The reality inside BA is nothing like the picture painted by outsiders.........

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There are some top guys from BA here infinitely better qualified to speak on life there than I am. I can only speak about easyJet, and I really enjoy it. My doubt would be the work rate - it would be very hard to keep this up day after day for 35 or more years. I do training which adds a bit of spice and entertainment to the job but without that it could become pretty relentless.

My personal make-up is that I go to work every day determined to have a good day out, and I invariably do. I am not particularly bothered by late roster changes and I don't get too phased when I run an hour or so late - on that basis I am probably an ideal candidate to work for easyJet! Day-to-day, I thoroughly enjoy what I do. My observation of easyJet over the last few years is that, when I first came here, about 15% of captains in particular really hated the company. That permeated right throught the ranks and a culture of negativity developed. We then won a few significant victories in terms of our general working life, due to a combination of BALPA's efforts and a sensible management approach. Whether that sensible management approach will continue is open to question, but that is another story! Slowly but surely a new culture has developed where people just enjoy working here, and that has again permeated through the ranks. So whether you want to work here the rest of your life or not, the overwhelming majority of pilots like being here - that makes for a great working environment.

Most young folk are still going to go off and work for BA - but they will look back very fondly at a great time they had here.

[StudentInDebt]

Meaning worse than we outsiders presume?Compared to my rather traditional charter airline working for BA is a breath of fresh air and I feel much more relaxed going to work now.

[supadupafly]

On my intake to BA there were 3 who were from easyjet. All really top guys, very personable and positive people. I've not seen much of them since we joined (they do work hard on the 'bus) but from what I have heard from them they seem reasonably happy with their lot at BA.

Positives seem to be that pay is apparantly a bit better, though not hugely so I believe. The guys I joined with are all young, mostly single, and seem to quite like getting to nightstop in Europe. In time to come there's also obviously the option to do long haul, bid for your work etc which might be important to you.

The negatives I was told is that it's definitely harder work than what these guys were used to at easy. The Airbus guys at BA seem to be racking up over 800 hours a year which due to the chaos that is LHR means that most people bid off the fleet as soon as they can as it really is exhausting on short haul (so I'm told).

For my own part, I joined from a charter outfit onto the 777 and am pretty happy with my lot, though by my standards at least I work far harder at BA! 550 hours a year in my previous airline as opposed to 850 hours now and no the pay is barely different (long term I know it will improve for sure). I'm sure easy has a far more positive and fun culture than BA but that aside your decision would have to depend on your long term aspirations and how many more years you anticipate flying for.

[Wigster]

Over and above the obvious factors which have already been discussed here such as pay, l think everyone is chasing lifestyle and that is what you must consider when choosing jobs. Do you want to be home every night with your family in the house that you are paying a large slice of your earnings to own or are you happy to be away staying in nice 5* hotels?
Sounds obvious and dont get me wrong they are both good on their merits but only you can decide what you want out of your flying career vs home life.
As for burn out and working practices, there is no "golden job" any more and l think everyone works pretty hard now so again you need to think what is good for you. EZY offer the fixed roster but BA offer trips away in exotic destinations...what would be best for you?

[Wingswinger]

The Airbus guys at BA seem to be racking up over 800 hours a year which due to the chaos that is LHR means that most people bid off the fleet as soon as they can as it really is exhausting on short haul (so I'm told).


They're wimps. Having done that for my last years in BA I can assure you it is not nearly as exhausting as dragging oneself out of bed around 4am for five days in a row to fly four sectors or getting home at 1 am or later for five days in a row after four sectors. Factor in the travelling time at the beginning and end of each day and you're out of the house for up to 14 hours a day if you have a lengthy commute. No, it's not really exhausting at all compared to EZY. Psychologically wearing, perhaps, because of "the chaos that is LHR" but exhausting it aint. Think of those 5 star hotels in places such as Rome, Paris, Vienna and Prague. I still miss them!

[3Greens]

they might be 5 star hotels but these days you're only in them for 12-13 hours. European night stops ain't what they used to be.

[Wingswinger]

You're not trying to tell me there are no 15-18 hour slips or stand-over days any more are you? Mind you I suppose the lifestyle does depend on one's bidding seniority. :}

Mrs W says she misses the 5 star hotels too. Doesn't much like having to slum it in a 4 star most of the time when we go places. Can't seem to negotiate a good discount anywhere these days since I don't have access to BA crew rates any more!

[peacekeeper]

Cheers for starting this thread African Dude.

I'm also off for the BA selection soon. I have to admit, I'm not sure now is the time to be moving companies and sitting at the very bottom of a Seniority list whilst oil prices go through the roof. Would this concern you if you do get offered the job at BA? I think life at EZY is great, it would be nice to do a few more over nights but with Lyon etc, I think that's on the way anyway.

[Hand Solo]

Having done that for my last years in BA I can assure you it is not nearly as exhausting as dragging oneself out of bed around 4am for five days in a row to fly four sectors or getting home at 1 am or later for five days in a row after four sectors.

???? Have you looked at an Airbus bidpack in the last 5 years? A month of earlies on the Airbus and you'll be dragging yourself out of bed at 4am for 6 days in a row to fly four sector days. It won't even be your own bed!

You're not trying to tell me there are no 15-18 hour slips or stand-over days any more are you?

Oh there's a few there, you'll pick them up as frequently as hen's teeth. Would be interested to know how long ago you left BA Wingswinger. Times have clearly changed since you were senior there.

[supadupafly]

Mrs W says she misses the 5 star hotels too. Doesn't much like having to slum it in a 4 star most of the time when we go places.

Wingswinger, as Hand Solo says it must have been some time since you left BA. The days of us staying in 5 star hotels are long gone, they certainly left before I joined unfortunately. Not that there's anything wrong with the hotels we use, usually standard Marriot, Sheraton etc which are all good in my book and are often the same hotels that other airlines send their crew to. Coming from a large charter airline background prior to BA, the standard of hotel we crew are put up in is the same I'd say.

[SimpleLife]

I left the easy LGW chaos 2 years ago to join the 777 fleet with BA. Took a bit of a paycut as I had been a skipper at easy. I pick up an extra trip each month to supplement the paycheck.

Must say that my life now feels like a permanent holiday compared with easy.

[Wingswinger]

HS and Supadupa,

Just over two years ago. For my last two years I had as many long slips as I wanted, as many stand-overs as I wanted and rarely reported before midday. Admittedly I was fairly senior on the fleet by then - pages 2 and 1.

Are you telling me you don't stay in the likes of ****** in Vienna or the ***** in Rome any more?

[Hand Solo]

Not withstanding the fact that I'd prefer you to delete the names of the hotels we stay(ed) in, I think the Rome one has changed, not that there was much to like about the place other than it's location. Vienna is still good, but you can offset that against the naff hotels we stayed in in LYS,NCE,BRU,ABZ or ARN. Lets also not forget that nightstops are now particularly short, with an early HEL meaning you cannot legally have a beer and any of the Milans leaving you with less than 12 hours at the hotel.

With the greatest respect, I don't think that as a former page 1/2 senior Captain you are really offering the kind of advice that the prospective EZ/BA switcher is looking for. Perhaps it was an easy life at the top of the list, picking up LCA standovers and late report midweek tours. When I left the Airbus fleet I was relatively senior but still got to 'enjoy' the early 5 day tours with 4am wake up calls and 4 sector days in between. I used to particularly enjoy the 3am wake up call in RIX on the last day to fly RIX/LHR/MUC/LHR, or latterly RIX/LHR/MAD/LHR. We don't go to RIX any more, but that was the kind of thing you'd be looking at if you weren't on page 1. I'm sure that sort of thing was a shock to you when you joined Easy, but it's standard fare for the junior BA pilot. Yes you'll get some late tours, but with a long commute to LHR you often found yourself getting home at midnight after a 5 day tour yet having to leave at 8am the next day to fly LED return. I believe that a few 5 sector days have been creeping into the bidpack recently.

In essence, the guys here want a flavour of what they'll see when they join BA, and thats not the lifestyle of a page 1 seniority Captain. If you ever flew the gruelling trips at the bottom of the list then your views would be more valid, but I think it's a bit rich to be calling BA pilots wimps when you've been creaming off the easy trips for years.

[The African Dude]

Folks, I haven't added anything to your discussion for the same reason I started it, but I am lurking and reading and as with the others, am very grateful for all of your input! Thanks for taking the time to contribute to what is turning into quite an interesting discussion.

[Wingswinger]

HS, my dear fellow, I wasn't offering advice re the hotels in the first place. I was making a flippant comment. Hotel names duly deleted. Even the naff hotels you describe are a notch or two above the hotels which EZY uses when the need arises. And, as I'm sure you are aware, no matter how senior you are it is impossible to avoid the less attractive work totally. I didn't "cream off" easy trips for years. How could I since I was only in BA for 17 years as you could have read in my original post?

I am well aware of the nature of the early HEL (did a few over the years) and RIX (liked going there). I don't believe that they were a constant feature on lines for those with limited bidding power, were they? They were fairly well scattered up and down the TL as I recall.

I was junior once too and had to do my fair share of the unpopular work on both the 75/76 as an FO and the 'bus as a Capt. At no time did I find it as relentlessly fatiguing as life at EZY. I am talking about falling-asleep-at-the-wheel-while-driving-home fatigue. In my original post on this thread I referred to the commuting which adds significantly to fatigue. At my base (LGW), lots of young FOs live close to the airport in shared, rented accommodation. Some captains whose domicile is elswhere also rent rooms or flats. However, there are many who have a commuting drive of an hour or more (as I do). As a result, there is frequently only 9-10 hours available for rest at home between duties. Normal life is suspended during a five-day block and going to the pub is out of the question. This summer we also have the joys of 2300-0300 simulator slots to which, being a TRI/TRE, I am exposed. At least at BA there is someone else to drive you to and from hotels during your tour and you could choose to have an afternoon nap as soon as you had checked in (as I would often do on an "early" tour).

Another aspect of this is that any additional work which one needs to do has to be done in one's own time. At BA, if I had to do some ops manual study or prepare for a simulator check, my books went into my nightstop bag and I did the work in a hotel room on tour so that it wouldn't impinge upon my time at home. I would also deal with private business that way. At EZY that is not an option.

In spite of that, I enjoy EZY and I still find it a breath of fresh air after BA as do many ex-BA skippers who are here. I don't find myself bad-tempered at work now which used to be a feature of my working life at BA from time to time due to all the silly internal bickering, jealousies and the frustrations of LHR. I stand by my original comments on fatigue. Having done both BA and EZY, I think I am in the better position to pass judgement on the last aspect, don't you?

[Mick Stability]

Life at BA is what you make of it. The most frustrating thing by far, and I mean even above the operational hastles at LHR, is the interdepartmental politics. Most of which contribute a large proportion of the aforementioned aggrevation.

I've been in over a decade now, and I can't remember a time when we haven't been on the brink of war about something. That however is how the scribblies like to have things, their lives are much less interesting without constantly fighting with the staff.

Keeping that in proportion, which can be difficult I admit, you will still have a rich variety of flying in all kinds of theatres of operation. The equipment is some of the newest, and some of the oldest in the industry. I still find it interesting and engaging, and there's enough choice in the rostering system for a work life balance to be struck.

My advice, yes, come and join Aunty for all her faults. Make learning the industrial agreement your first priority so that you're nobody's fool. Be patient, seniority will ooze for the next few years, but you will have years to make it up in the future. Some of our pilots have a potential 35 year career with us. (If the industry lasts that long:rolleyes:). The pension is not what it was euphamistically speaking, but it is still a pension.

But the thing that makes me happiest is the huge range of people I fly with. A rich vein of experiences, talents, and warstories. With 3300 pilots, you will rarely come across the very few Jodrell bankers, and they are clearly marked if you want to swap the trip.

Snapshot perhaps, but please don't believe everything you read here about BA. Come on in and make your own mind up.We're big enough for everyone to find a niche. Some pilots come here for five minutes just to get BA on the CV, screw everything up and then poke off with wads of cash - WHOOPS! What am I saying:ooh:

[cockpit cxs complete]

Made the switch not to long ago. Was at LTN on the 73 then moved to LHR on the Scarebus. . . . apart from the fact that I prefered flying the 737 I've made the right move for me.

I'm very junior on the fleet but thats changing every week with lots of new DEP's and SSP's starting.

I enjoy going on tours, its nice to see a bit of europe. As for the miserable old gits in the left hand seat. . . . I cant say I've flown with any yet, generally a good bunch of guys and will usually always go for a beer in the bar. As for the crew, if you make the effort you will get one or two out, very rarly will the entire crew come out though. Command is much further off than it was at easy but I can wait, that time will be split up by moving longhaul for a bit and having a crack at the 747 or 777!

The major problem with the company is as the seemingly low moral, as MS says there is a lot of interdepartmental bollocks going on, openskies and court cases etc.

Personally as an FO I think BA are less prescriptive that easyjet but that may be just me. The biggest shock to the system is the size of the BA machine. . . get used to just being a number (quite literally, outside the aircraft, all people are interested in is your 5 letter code and seniority!)

I havent been in anywhere near as long as HS but I've done 1 4 sector day since i've been at BA (on lone since early Jan), My roster isnt all earlys. . . infact i only do 5 or 6 a month and most nightstops I get are between 14- 18 hours. Some hotels are crap but even those are better than the ones I stayed in at easy. . . and whilst the hotel in ARN is rubbish it has free porn which makes it all OK!

For me it was a good move, but I can see why its not for everybody. I do mostly trips and my days are 1/2/3 sectors. . . LHR does have an effect on you and it becomes quite tiring but T5 has made a huge difference in my opinion. Constantly living out of a suitcase also has an effect, so i would say i work just as hard as I did at easyJet. . . . i'm certainly doing more hours each month!

ccc

[Airbrake]

I'm an easyjet guy who turned a 777 job down. Madness! I here you say. It was of course a tough decision which caused a few sleepless nights. So far I have not regretted it but ask me in another 5 years and you may get a different answer.
The main reason for me was age. I would have been 37 on joining BA and even with the increase in retirement age I would have spent more time in the bottom half of seniority lists than the top half. Money was of course an issue, long haul FO versus Easyjet Captain. The salary difference is significant and whilst it would gradually reduce over time and eventually become significantly more at BA it would have taken a very long time for gross earnings at BA to catch up and equal my Easyjet Command gross earnings.
If any easyjet guys are approaching command you would be surprised at the pay difference over the first 10 years. Have a look at some of the published pay scales for BA/Easy use your best guess for a BA command date and sector pay and add it all up year for year until they equal each other.
Also, factor in pension contributions over your career. The loss of the BA final salary pension was significant.

[qualitycontrol]

Simplelife - what was the difference in the bottom right hand corner?

[Airbrake]

Sorry, but it's not a simple calculation and everybody will come up with a different answer depending on time to Command at Easyjet and whether they are going to take the first short haul command available at BA or live the long haul dream for xx years in the RHS. Go to http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com and have a look at the figures.

[omoko joe]

That's bizarre airbrake. I have friends in both camps and generally those on the LH fleets in BA are earning the same or more as EZY Captains. Are you sure you got your sums right? These guys are not particularly senior either.
Other issues highlighted were the requirement in future to take commands abroad in EZY on local contracts and the bosses unstoppable desire to turn it into orange Ryanair. With demand now exceeding supply for EZY commands I suspect the contracts may take another battering.

[Airbrake]

Omoko, whilst I do not want to tar all BA FOs with the same brush there does on occassion appear to be some salary inflation when speaking to individuals! Quite often you only hear about when they got drafted and were paid an extra £1300 for 3 days in the bunk if you get my drift.
Ask them directly what their basic is. Ask them what their average allowances are including months with holidays in. Also, ask them how much on average they spend on a night stop.
As a comparison take an Easyjet Captain who has been at the company 5 years.

Basic £77k
10% Bonus £7.7
Sector pay approx £10.5

Total cash £95.2k

This calculation does not account for pension/uniform allowance/ share bonus schemes/ health care and benefits of a fixed pattern roster...if it stays. Many easyjet FOs thinking of joining BA would be close to a command in a year or 2 if they stayed put. If they are under 30 I would say go straight away but once into your mid 30s it is not so clear cut.

[rebellion]

I used to work for an airline that did a lot of nightstops like the BA lifestlye and I got totally sick of living in a hotel away from my family trying to have a conversation with a person I didn't really want to be with. So I left and went to easyJet. Personally its the best thing I ever did. I live 10 mins aways from base and on earlies i'm usually home by midday, no traffic, no hassel, no holding, no busses from a car park Z to the office- it's bliss. And my family life is not just better it's perfect. I don't think family life truely exists in a nightstop airline. Great when your early 20's perhaps.

For me easyJet is perfect, I love the flying, I love the 'no hassel' atmosphere, I love being in bed 1 hour after arriving on stand at night and up 1 hour before report in the morning and NO M25!

Monies not the best, but i'm happy!

[Rod Eddington]

Other issues highlighted were the requirement in future to take commands abroad in EZY on local contracts

What most people have not realised yet is that eJ's local contracts are actually massively more lucrative than the UK ones. I understand the new Italian contract leaves cpts with a take home of around 8000euros (plus a bonus month once a year). At current exchange rates that's about equivalent to the year 20 BA LH cpt take home (which I understand to be £6-7k)

[orangetree]

massively lucrative until the employee union body is fragmented then we'll see what comes out in the wash. Be under no illusion Easyjet is embarking on a major cost cutting spree and I would say nothing is exempt. If I were a betting man i'd say those getting the 100 or commands next year might come in for a shock. As for 92.5k..never seen anything like it in in 5 years. It's not all bad but also bear in mind there are a great many pilots in Easyjet who have never seen the outside world. Orange is not the only way but it's not the worst way either (yet).

[Airbrake]

Orangetree. You wont have seen anything like it in 5 years because they are this years figures......:ugh:

[orangetree]

If you think the extra 5% from year 4 to 5 will make the difference you are sadly deluded. We shall talk again next March when, if you have 92.5k on your P60 i will gladly buy you a pint (unless you are on training increments..that would be cheating!)
The current UK command contract is most likely as good as it will ever be. It's downhill from here and unfortunately I think next year's new upgrades will face the brunt of it.

[Rod Eddington]

If you think the extra 5% from year 4 to 5 will make the difference you are sadly deluded. We shall talk again next March when, if you have 92.5k on your P60 i will gladly buy you a pint (unless you are on training increments..that would be cheating!)
The current UK command contract is most likely as good as it will ever be. It's downhill from here and unfortunately I think next year's new upgrades will face the brunt of it.

You wouldn't see 92.5k on your P60. The number on your p60 shows taxable pay so will not include your pension contributions (several thousand probably), non-taxable sector pay (approx £4000), any BAYE contributions (probably £1500), and nightstop allowances. Airbrake has quoted accurate figures, why argue with them?

[SimpleLife]

In reply to earlier question, bottom right hand corner is about £300 less at the moment as a 2nd year BA 777 F/O picking up an extra trip each month compared to an easy skipper 2 years ago in LGW. Pension contributions are a bit higher now since the re-jig last year.

But most importantly, I feel that unlike easy, I will be able to do this job till retirement.

[Airbrake]

Simple life your contribution is next to useless!

It is totally pointless using figures that are 2 years out of date for Easyjet and then using the classic "good month syndrome" with an extra trip at BA and saying look what I've got!

What is Pay Point 2 for a long haul FO and what is your average monthly allowance over the last 6 months?

We all know there are numerous other variables to consider and anybody swapping companies will take them into account, but basic salary and sector pay are the beginning.

Tell us some hard facts.

[CEJM]

Airbrake,

Don't know if it helps you but here should be some average figures for BA.

Year 1 DEP = £48500 (it's actually not a round figure but it's £48000 and a bit)

Average allowance is £12000 yearly

Yearly increase in salary (i.e. year 1 to year 2) is around £2500.

Don't work for BA but figures are from a friend who works for them.

[Airbrake]

Thanks CEJM.

[SimpleLife]

Obviously the easy schedule makes some people a little tetchy.

However the figures I quoted were merely to help a fellow pilot make an informed decision. The take home amounts I quoted were average figures based on a rolling 6 months.

Go figure the 2 year inflation effect and don't be so nasty.

[XT668]

Surely, even in RPI terms that's not bad? And probably a decent negotiated cost of living rise as well?

[rebellion]

BaronBlue,

What you need is a crystal ball!

:ok:

[Carnage Matey!]

Number 2 trumps number 3. In BA an FO won't earn more than a Captain with equivalent years of service.

[springbok449]

Airbrake,

Your little swipe at SimpleLife was a bit unnecessary, no one has criticized your move to stay at easy rather than move to BA as it was very carefully though about.

You seem the need to justify yourself on a financial basis, I like SimpleLife left easy in search of lifestyle, no amount of money would have made me stay and trust me when I speak of easy with my colleagues now it is always in good, the only thing that was negative was the lifestyle and the longterm effect it would have on my flying career.

All the best.

[Airbrake]

Gentlemen, it was not a swipe and I was not being nasty towards Simplelife. Comparing something 2 years out of date and giving no hard figures was as useful as last months met brief.

Nobody has yet disagreed with the figures CEJM gave. These are nothing like the sums Simplelife implied.

[joe two]

Some fresh wind blowing through the smog.
Compare :
As a comparison take an Easyjet Captain who has been at the company 5 years.

Basic £77k
10% Bonus £7.7
Sector pay approx £10.5

Total cash £95.2k


with

Don't know if it helps you but here should be some average figures for BA.

Year 1 DEP = £48500 (it's actually not a round figure but it's £48000 and a bit)

Average allowance is £12000 yearly

Yearly increase in salary (i.e. year 1 to year 2) is around £2500.


and behold

bottom right hand corner is about £300 less at the moment as a 2nd year BA 777 F/O picking up an extra trip each month compared to an easy skipper 2 years ago in LGW.

is (naturally) untrue.

[Carnage Matey!]

Might be worth factoring out the bonus as with oil at $135 per barrel none of us are getting a bonus next year:( Then again you could include the BA bonus, which stands at a whopping 2% this year.

[Man Flex 37.5]

The bonus at Ezy is paid regardless of profits.

[supadupafly]

The figures quoted by CEJM are correct. As a junior bod at BA you'll most likely do blindlines to begin with which means invariably you'll be flying every (or virtually) every weekend. The upside is that you tend to work slightly less than CAP (the target number of credit hours that BA set for us each month, usually in the mid to high 80's). From my own experience on the 777, on a blindline you can't really bank on picking up an extra trip each month. The reason being is that the overtime trips available nearly always fall over the weekend which seeing as you'll be working then anyway means that you can't obviously do it. I'm not sure if it's more feasible on shorthaul, over to someone else for that one! Also, on a blindline as you'll be a bit under CAP you only get the full overtime rate for the amount your new trip takes you over CAP for the month, so it may well not be worth doing essentially. As with everything at BA, the rules are complicated and will take some time to get used to, expect to make several errors before you get the hang of it!

For someone coming from easy to BA, I would suggest that money shouldn't be the motivator. Assuming you have, or expect to shortly have, a command at easy, the money £92.5k ish vastly outshines the initial BA salary £61k ish inc allowances. Sure, the BA salary goes up £2.5k ish each year but you'll be many years off command, maybe 15+ for a longhaul command anyway, not sure about shorthaul, less obviously. The BA Capt Salary is higher than that at easy but you'll be waiting a long time to get there which makes it more of a close call over the course of a career. BA pays in 12% of basic into your pension pot which I believe is a bit higher than at easy of 7% I think?

All in all, it's an individuals choice, lots of good and possibly not so good things about working for either company. I have several friends from my flying college days who are at easy, happy and have no intention of moving anywhere. Personally I'm reasonably happy with my lot at BA (it's testing at times for sure) though from chatting with my mates at easy I can fully appreciate why it works for them. Anyway... hope this makes the financial side of things slightly clearer.

[kick the tires]

The bonus at Ezy is paid regardless of profits.

What a fantastic inclusion that was into last years pay award!:ok:

[supadupafly]

I didn't include in my post, if you hadn't already worked it out, that you can probably forget any bonus for several years to come at BA. My bonus for us hitting the 10% margin for the first time ever is, wait for it, just short of one weeks basic pay...

[Husky One]

Lets add a different slant to this -

ask any Easyjet Capt -
1)where he sees himself in 5yrs and
2) at retirement.
Do the same of a BA Captain.

The resounding result from my base is
1) Maybe Easyjet (if the tunnel collapses)
2) Not Easyjet

that concludes the results from a forgotten regional base.

[st nicholas]

If I was to stay in the UK for life I would join BA.

I am with easyJet and view it as a means to an end ( 90-100K pa means to an end)

My plan is to escape this grim broken country for sunnier climates.

[Carnage Matey!]

What makes you think you need to stay in the UK to work for BA? Literally hundreds don't.

[st nicholas]

Very True

Spent my formative years with HM Forces and 9 with ej so not cost effective for me to join BA on the bottom rung. However if I was under 30 and not a slave to the morgage I would consider BA

[Craggenmore]

Im mid 30's. Am about one to two years off command at EZY.

My G'f is a ten year SFO BA pilot. She will remain long-haul until retirement.

Marriage and kids within the next two to three years.

Money more or less seems to work out evenly at my stage of life. Higher earnings initially with EZY when upgraded to captain, but BA will match current EZY money in around ten year’s time. Meanwhile hers will be going up and up from here on in. G'f is also on final salary pension scheme.

Do I want l'haul myself? I'm on BA staff travel so I get to sit in 1A for £150 a few times per year so I'm semi-satisfied with seeing the world. Ideally if EZY did one or two more night stops and I had more time to get stuff done in a working block (lates in particular), would I move? I don't think so.

If only I knew what was around the corner at EZY but I think I smell changes to come.

She's keen for me to move across for the long term sake of the family to be. Roster planning, part-time working available...

I may or may not pass BA selection but if I do, should I go?

Craggs

[Rocket Ron]

I've been at easy for ten years now and for me, long haul comes into the category "nice place to visit but wouldn't want to live there".

Do you really want to give up the fun, informality and all the other good things about easyJet just so you can go and sit in a hotel room for days on end being driven mad by BBC World? Or would you rather get your command, do a couple of landings a day, then go home every night to your future wife and kids?

Ask your easyJet colleagues - I bet they'll all want you to stay.

[Husky One]

a view not widely shared on the forgotten fleet or in certain regions :E

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Cragg,

Might be worth waiting for first child. That's what I'm doing before giving BA a go. Same age bracket as you and time to command, so facing the same tough questions. I have come to the conclusion that you need to know how much time you want to spend with your kid(s). And I don't think you can tell until you have one. We're facing a long time RHS vs LHS with BA, so waiting another year or two won't make a huge difference. Until recently, you could just give BA a shot and go back DEC at EZY if you didn't like it. But since that's no longer the case (although that may change again), it's more of long term commitment.

P

[SR71]

For those of us in our mid-30's (or in fact anyone although the general consensus is, if you're less than 30, at least aim for BA), its easy to make a spreadsheet and work out what your career earnings will be over the period you expect/want to work for the various potential options open to you....if that kind of thing motivates you.

But what most people forget, even if they adjust for expected pay-rise(s) and expected command upgrades, is that its better to have the money in your hand now, because accelerating the rate at which you pay the mortgage off now is better than expecting to accelerate the rate at which you start paying it off in 10 years when your salary catches up, so to speak.

You have to work out the net present value of the expected cash flows and then compare.

Personally, I think the LOCO industry is still a seriously laid back life compared to what I did previously and I've been doing it 6+ years. Long haul doesn't appeal at all. My long haul mates always seem to be moaning about their circadian rhythms being fubar.

I'd be pleased if I could paid like I am to do this till I'm 60...

[Kraut]

Do you really want to give up the fun, informality and all the other good things about easyJet:eek::eek:

Hi,ROCKET RON,

Are we talking about the same company? But congratulations on your view of EZY!

[abfgh]

Hi Rocket Ron
Nightstops will increase. I guess you haven't done the Lyon, CDG, ORY , GLA weeks. Soon there will be more N/S available in DTM....just wait for your reserve months!!

[Artificial Horizon]

Personally I have a couple of mates who joined EZY at the same time that I joined BA, they work harder than I do with many more 4 sector days and generally take home £5 - 800 less per month depending on whether I have taken time off. They will be up for commands next year where as I will not be up to command for another 4 years. That four years I will use to have a taster of longhaul and then will be able to make the choice that is not available at EZY, a shorthaul command or continue with longhaul. So my mates at EZY will have 3 years of earning £15 - £20000 more than me but miss out on the long haul option. Once I take a command I will over take thier pay fairly rapidly and have far more scope for earning potential not to mention the excellent staff travel which allows me to travel around the world once a year in either business or first class. I notice someone a few posts ago say that waiting a year or two to join BA won't make a difference which is a big mistake. Guys that joined a year after me are 150 places down the seniority list which could mean a difference of a couple of years for a fleet move and more for a command. If you are going to join do it ASAP, if not then stay at EZY, as to be honest they do seem like a great company to work for.

[Rocket Ron]

abfgh:

Yep, I have just finished my reserve and nine nights were in LYS, my first in four years, but I enjoyed the change of scenery and went to some new places. As the new bases expand they'll be crewed locally so I'm not expecting to spend much time away, unlike BA Airbus short haul.

Kraut:

Yep, we do work for the same Company. Maybe you never experienced arriving at a desk job at 0900 on a Monday morning, looking at the clock and wishing your life away 'till the weekend.

I never said easyJet was perfect, but just tell me where's better? If you can do that then you've found the solution to whatever problem you have.

[Kraut]

ROCKET RON

we are comparing airlines and not ailine vs desk jobs.
Changing that threat for me to make it somewhat comparable, asking wheter I would prefer Lufthansa (with all disadvantages that might be there)
I would ALWAYS prefer LH. So, als not in a position to go to BA, from my experience there is only one answer: go BA!

The strategical decelopment of EZY will take away some of the advantages:
from moving to the left seat to uncertainty of your personal future homebase, just to mention those.

Just my two cents out of experience, as a continental pilot.

[moo]

Craggenmore, I apologise if I have misunderstood your previous post however I don’t understand how as a EasyJet SFO (basic £46,813 if DEP & approx £9000 flight pay) you can bring in the same money as your partner on BA pay point 10 (basic £71,888 with approx £15000 flight pay).
I made the move a year ago and never looked back. BA is not without its issues however my quality of life (mid fleet) has improved dramatically and that is at the bottom of the list.

[Craggenmore]

Moo,

You have misunderstod my post but its no sweat. I'm just figuring things out at the mo.

Thinking out loud, I make Capt with EZY in a year, year and a half, and so earn what my g'f does now after ten years with BA, or, move to BA and then take another ten years to get up to the level I could be at in one, one and a half years.

Seems a long wait as I'll be 5 years or so off 50:{

Cheers, Craggs.

[Knee Trembler]

Hi Craggenmore,

Here's my two-penneth. I'm a similar age to you and thinking along the same lines. Presently fly as Capt lo-co and wondering if BA will be a safer long term bet. As I am in Europe the pay difference is more or less neutral, but after a lot of soul searching I realise that you have to differentiate between someone who is below say 35 and someone older.

For the younger guys and girls it's a no-brainer, BA wins hands down. But beyond that it's not so easy (no pun intended!) One thing is certain, you can't kid yourself that a pay cut doesn't matter. Whatever you earn you spend / save and after the initial rush of the new job is gone one does miss the cash! (I took a big cut to move to my present employer, but luckily got promoted which made up for it.)

In the end though, you can only make the final decision once the offer letter is on the mat (or in the in-tray!).

Good luck with the decision and remember that the only one that matters is the one that is right for you!

KT