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View Full Version : Does de use of met. radar really avoids bird strike?


lfbb
16th May 2008, 12:40
Yesterday my airline has just published an internal bulleting informing all the pilots that the use of meteorological radar is now mandatory for take-offs and landings in order to prevent bird strike. I wonder if there is some kind o scientific publication on that and what are your thoughts about it?

Thanks!

forget
16th May 2008, 12:49
:confused: Has someone mis-read this?

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/birdstrike2000/12/

jackharr
16th May 2008, 12:54
As a retired professional pilot followed by ten years forecasting weather for glider pilots and a bird watcher to boot......that's all b-llocks.

The only possible justification for that instruction is the fact that birds do sometimes follow insects that get sucked up under cunims.

Mind you, my former airline produced a similar "classic". Instructions to the effect that bird strikes were more likely in the autumn as "birds like to rest on the still-warm runway". Bird strikes might indeed be more prevalent in the autumn & winter but for a totally different reasons - migratory visitors such as Lapwings and Fieldfares often frequent the grass at the runway edges as it provides excellent feeding.

Jack

SNS3Guppy
16th May 2008, 13:31
Does de use of met. radar really avoids bird strike?


NO!!!

But if it makes you feel better, have a ball.

lfbb
16th May 2008, 13:55
Well… reading the issued bulleting, I was just wondering where they got the "according to scientific studies" part from…

Capt Claret
16th May 2008, 14:23
This link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?searchid=3221465) might help shed some light for you.

I had my second bird strike in a B717, yesterday. Wx radar on from lining up until the after landing scans. It didn't stop something from denting the intake lip.

Dream Land
17th May 2008, 18:26
IMO, having wx radar on makes no difference.

md-100
17th May 2008, 18:45
bull sh....
Keep the radar for a weather situation.

ssg
17th May 2008, 20:25
I have friends that swear radar works in scattering birds...I won't bore you with the flocks and HERDs that I tried to disperse with radar on final...

How about this...if radar dispersed birds...then why with the powerfull terminal radar systems at airports are birds such a problem?

Rossair
17th May 2008, 22:11
Is there not (or was there not once) a comment on the plates for Venice suggesting the use of radar due to bird hazard at that airport?

SNS3Guppy
18th May 2008, 00:18
The 10-9 chart at Venice states "Due to bird concentration, pilots are requested to activate their meteo radar before takeoff and landing."

What the airport authority requests, however, really has no bearing on whether or not airborne weather radar actually repels birds. It does not.

Keeping it on for weather avoidance is entirely irrelevant to the subject.

ssg
18th May 2008, 02:10
Guppy stated:

The 10-9 chart at Venice states "Due to bird concentration, pilots are requested to activate their meteo radar before takeoff and landing."

What the airport authority requests, however, really has no bearing on whether or not airborne weather radar actually repels birds. It does not.

Keeping it on for weather avoidance is entirely irrelevant to the subject.


- So It's not REALLY about bird concentration..as stated.on the chart......Please do tell..what is REALLY going on in Venice...

SNS3Guppy
18th May 2008, 02:45
Good lord you're dense.

Yes, it's really bird concentration, but a request from the airport authority is not science, and does nothing to prove that radar repels birds. It doesn't. It also costs nothing to comply with the request.

Yes, there are birds. Yes, the note requests you turn on your radar. However, surely even you can comprehend that a note on an airport diagram isn't even ancedotal evidence that radar repels birds.

Go back to your microsoft sim and seek out some more aircraft accidents, will you?

Denti
18th May 2008, 03:01
The full note reads (at least in our documentation, EAG, not Jepp): To verify the effectiveness of electromagnetic
waves regarding birds evacuation from
manoeuvring area, pilots are requested to
activate meteo radar equipment before
TKOF and LDG.

So it looks as if they're trying to prove something, it is just a running test.

SNS3Guppy
18th May 2008, 03:29
Does that mean the V speeds are suspect too?


Birds and radar has exactly WHAT to do with V speeds?

Clearly you come here only to spout your mouth off and disturb what otherwise is a useful, technical forum. With luck eventually the moderators will sort you out.

SNS3Guppy
18th May 2008, 15:37
Looks like ssg is going on the ignore list...

forget
18th May 2008, 17:46
........... and disturb what otherwise is a useful, technical forum.

Is it possible to exclude Good Ole Boys from this thread. :*

airfoilmod
18th May 2008, 18:22
In the sense that the Radome keeps birds from hitting the Antenna?

moonburn
18th May 2008, 19:07
The use of wx to scare away birds has long been debated.
the practice was first recommended to me some 25 years ago by very experienced ! african type freight dogs whose experience I rated highly and who have probably saved my life several times over through other such pearls of wisdom / old wive's tales ( let the reader choose )
Such comments as "it does not" are without foundation and suggest that some individuals have attained a level of knowledge with which they are satisfied. We shall no doubt read about them in the future !
The short answer is that we don't know, however any attempts to investigate the subject, such as in Venice can only add to our armoury and are to be applauded.
As for old habits and ignorance, there is absolutely no need to " save " the radar , this is a throw back to the bad old days when wx overheated regularly and did indeed have to be used sparingly. The continuation of this modern myth has lead to many pilots who are quite happy to fly around at night without the radar on until they actually encounter cloud ( for some strange reason the largest proportion of these are Italian, anyone know why ? )
To conclude, we suspect that birds may use the earth's magnetic field to navigate, therefor it is not unreasonable to expect that they could be sensitive to electro magnetic pulses of other types is it ?
Let's keep an open mind boys and constantly question our understanding of things, that seems to have served us very well so far.

airfoilmod
18th May 2008, 19:33
Moon, I meant no disrespect. This is Tech and not JB. Batstrikes may not happen because of the way the little mammals Navigate. Theirs is not "Radar", but "Sonar", another ....ar. No jokes about not knowing of Dolphin strikes. Birds are simply put, lizards with feathers, they flock like fish, and move as a group, frequently. Bats are independent cusses, and arguably more intelligent than a lizard, which will run in front of a snake, and become lunch. Birds are also territorial, and by the time they understand what a BIG bird is doing challenging their territory, they hit the big metal Bird, Window, Fan, etc. If birds were smart, they would not be a problem. If a bird is in migrate mode, and gets a conflicting interrogation from an A/C, will he change direction to avoid? or to Defend? or continue with an enroute change in flightplan? These are legitimate questions, ones I am proud to say elude my understanding. Stupid question #1: What if it is determined Wx attracts birds? I'd ask, but I don't speak Birdu.

moonburn
18th May 2008, 19:57
Airfoilmod,
Not a stupid question at all, it may well be that wx attracts birds, hence the need for open minds and thorough investigation. Let us not forget that the tips and tricks from old timers have usually evolved for a very good reason and to dismiss them out of hand may very well be foolhardy , at least until we have definitive scientific evidence.
PS. if you wish to avoid bats, dont fly in caves or under trees.

Cap Loko
18th May 2008, 20:08
Who knows, it could be that bird sensitivity to radar has to do with the type of bird in question. Perhaps some birds more sensitive (migrating birds for example) and lokal birds not. Its just a hypotese that could be scientifically investigated. Or perhaps let 'mythbusters' do some experimenting.

I've been standing cleared for takeoff with a flock of birds on the runway. Then turned on the wx radar, nothing happened.
They seem to be sensitive for the firetrucks watergun though :)