Whats the £100 for ?

[Leezyjet]

About to start my CPL in the near future and I have been chatting to some current/previous students about what to expect etc.

All the usual answers until they got to the bit about the 170A.

All said the same, you pay the school for the a/c and the CFI/Deputy CFI to take it as one would expect, but this next bit has me baffled. They said that the CFI's expect you to pay £100 in cash to them as well for taking you on the test and you don't get a receipt for it :suspect:

Apparently they do the same to PPL students too (which I didn't do with them), and again for the IR.

Now in the bigger picture, £100 isn't a huge amount, but this is expected EACH time you have to take a 170A. :eek:

Some people also said this is the "norm" at other schools too, so just thought I'd ask if it is or is this school trying to pull a fast one in basically bribing the CFI to pass you, and if you don't pay up then they will fail you regardless of how well you have done - of course they know you cannot take the real test until they have passed you on the 170A, or is there some legitimate reason for it ?.

Not too happy about it personally and at the moment it isn't too late to pull out, but then I wouldn't be able to get on another course with another school right away, so might just have to fork it out rather than further delay training.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

:hmm:

[capt.sparrow]

You are not required to have a 170a for entry to the CPL test anyway - only required for the IR. Sounds like a con. Dont pay it.

[daria-ox]

Somethin is definately wrong there. They shouldn't be charging you these money eveytime you take the 170A..:bored::rolleyes:

[MIKECR]

A 170A is required for both the CPL and IR Skills Tests. The Examiner will expect you to have the necessary 170A form(passed of course) with you on the actual skills test day. As for paying £100 to the CFI for the privelage of his company on a 170A, i can honestly say first i've heard of it. Sounds like a money making excersise to me.

[BigGrecian]

Not the first I've heard of it by any means. Although not common it is becoming more so and in my opinion, it is becoming a better check as 170 examiners begin to devote more time to the check.

Think of it like a business and if you say it isn't then you need a reality check!

An authorised 170 examiner, has to apply for his status and basically pay to renew it. They are pretty much just one rung down the ladder from an examiner and thus have a large amount of experience and expertise. The school often generally pays someone with this experience more to retain them. Experienced staff demand higher wages or they move on....

You are paying for their experience, skill set and judgement skills.

[A and C]

There seems to be a lot of this sort of thing creaping in, one opperator how has recently been taken over it now starting to charge extra for landings and another one on the south coast charges a £300 "registration fee" for it's structured hours building course (whatever structured hours building is!?).

The message is clear you must ask before flying what the full cost of the flight is and if they don't tell you don't pay !

[TheOddOne]

...of course you could pay it and then bubble him/her to HMRC for non-payment of tax on earned income (once you've safely got your CPL, of course!)

Examiners undoubtedly need to earn money to live, just like the rest of us. I recall my 170A test - the fee was included in the aircraft hire at the CPL training rate.

Put it in the context of having building work done and paying a lesser amount for cash, i.e. the builder doesn't declare it for income tax or VAT. I guess it all depends upon your moral stance on the 'Black Economy'.

The 'declared' rate would work out at around £150, if the tax evading rate is £100.

As you correctly say, paying cash leads to all sorts of moral issues around bribery and corruption. A slippery slope. It would be a pity if we descended into this and became like some other nations!

TheOddOne

[EK4457]

Firstly, 170A is a form to be filled out by a CAA qualified person. NOTHING more. It is to confirm that you are suitable to sit the relevant skills test. Both in terms of competance AND paperwork/experience.

Now, if the 170A signatory has never seen you fly, then obviously he will want to do so. Logically, in the form of a practice test. However, if they were your instructor during the course, this may not be required.

Bottom line. 170A is just a form which needs to be signed before test. They need to see you reach test standard. There is NO reason why this can't be done as part of your course (thus, NO extra charge). If he is charging £100 to sign the form, that is nothing short of extaution. If you choose to pay and he doesn't give you a reciept, then I'm sure that Her Maj's Inland Revenue AND the CAA would be interested about these 'non - standard' operating/accounting procedures.

If they advertise that the 170A signature has a fee and you choose to pay, then that is fair enough. I wouldn't though. There is no reason why the student should pay for the 170A's expenses. It is an overhead of running a FTO. When did you last get charged for your intructors class 1 medical? Besides, £100 is outrageously OTT.

EK

[tom_ace]

I don't think handing your 170a examiner a £100 back hander is a wise choice, they should be paid by your flight school in their salary.

[BigGrecian]

Some flight schools use external 170 examiners. Who aren't on the school's pay roll.

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

[Leezyjet]

Think of it like a business and if you say it isn't then you need a reality check!

An authorised 170 examiner, has to apply for his status and basically pay to renew it. They are pretty much just one rung down the ladder from an examiner and thus have a large amount of experience and expertise. The school often generally pays someone with this experience more to retain them. Experienced staff demand higher wages or they move on....

You are paying for their experience, skill set and judgement skills.

Of course it is a business, but it is up to the school to see that the 170 examiner is fairly rewarded for their experience, not the student in the form of a back hander, and if not then it is up to the 170 examiner to look elsewhere for suitable renumeration for their skills if school A isn't paying them their worth.

A commercial pilot in the airline industry doesn't walk down the cabin with cap in hand requesting £100 cash from each passenger to get them there in one piece, so the same should not be required of the student with the 170A.

I recall my 170A test - the fee was included in the aircraft hire at the CPL training rate.

Exactly, and this is also the case at said flying school, the £100 is extra to this.

As you correctly say, paying cash leads to all sorts of moral issues around bribery and corruption. A slippery slope. It would be a pity if we descended into this and became like some other nations!

I agree, we are supposed to be training to be professional aviators, not some dodgy back street builders. If I do pay, then in a way I'm condoning it, but if I don't I run the risk of them failing me even if I have performed well and making me take extra lessons and another test, which would be more expensive then the £100 !!. :uhoh:

Some flight schools use external 170 examiners. Who aren't on the school's pay roll.

At this particular school, they are on the payroll.

EK4457
Totally agree.

I'll ask them directly about it when I'm next down there. There may be a legitimate reason, but the way several students have described it, just sounds a little fishy to me.

If it comes down to having to pay it, I will offer to pay by credit card or cheque, but I am not paying them cash.

:(

[mini-jumbo]

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

Correct, the CAA might not care, however HMRC will.

[mad_jock]

Tell the taxman of this cash payment before you go there.

It won't be there by the time you arrive.

BTW there is no flight test for the cpl it is only a paper work exercise so if the school is trying to sting you for 2 hours in the complex and 100 quid bung your being done by over 500 quid.

[EK4457]

170 examiners are basically examiners in their own right (Especially where a flight IS required) and, entitled to charge as they wish. The CAA wouldn't care less about their accounting practises.

Do not underestimate what the CAA 'care less' about. Many an examiner has lost their status through 'paperwork oversights'. If somone is unfairly gaining a financial advantage on the back of their CAA staus, they tend to be very interested.

Of course, not that I am accusing anybody of anything. Purely hypothetical...

[EK4457]

And if the 170A is not on the payroll, then it is an overhead of the school. They cannot claim to provide a complete course without the 170A signature.

[Black Jake]

The 170 is a certificate of course completion and competence, it is not an exam. It's purpose is to inform the examiner who does your CPL or IR skill test that you have completed an approved course, met all the requirements for test and have a good chance of passing it - so he or she doesn't have to trawl through your training records to check for themselves. The person who signs the 170 form is not acting as an examiner and might not even be one. He or she is a senior instructor who has been authorised by the CAA to check that you are ready for test - so you don't waste your test fee and the examiner's time if you're not. It's all in CAA Standards Document 6 which is freely available on the website.

[Treeshaver]

This 100 quid sounds like the work of Dobbers. That cheeky sod makes a killing of 170s! Tell him where to stick it or you'll shop him to the tax man.

[supramkiv]

I would question this personally, certain "flight schools" seem to use anything over and above what is considered a regular lesson to charge an extortionate amount of money.

My C170a for my CPL (undertaken at a reputable UK school) was charged at the standard rate (amazing how they managed to do this while some C170a examiners run up such huge expenses maintaining the privilege).

It took 1 1/2 hours of flying and half hour of briefing and 5 minutes to complete the form. That would make it approx an additional £50 an hour for the tester on top of their wage if i had paid an further £100. That's more then alot of jet captain's earn an hour.

Buyer beware, this sort of charging is particually common with foreign JAA schools, where they hold a captive audience who have a high buy out penalty if they are not happy with their treatment.

[Leezyjet]

Treeshaver

I won't mention the schools name or person/s involved as it is just hearsay at the moment, but from several different sources on different days/times.

However has anyone actually not paid up though AND passed the 170A ?.

:(

[Private jet]

Sounds like an example of the "bloodsucker" culture that seems to be a part of the flight training process. The suggestion of a call to HMRC is a good one.

[tom_ace]

roll up! roll up! get yer 170a's!

[Rugbyears]

I'm astounded; there is no acceptable argument in favour of such corrupt behaviour!:eek:

There are three words that come to mind…
Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous, Unscrupulous!!!!

….Surly you have the common sense not to pay this sum money..?

[Treeshaver]

Sod it, lets get this out in the open.

Colin Dobney, head of training at Stapleford charges 100 pounds to do 170s, meaning that he gets an extra 200 quid off every student who does their CPL and IR there.

The money goes straight to him, paid via cheque or cash. It is not paid through the flying school.
If you think how many students pass throught SFC each year, thats a decent income for the man.

All I speak is the truth, nothing more.

[Aegean100]

I've been charged for 3 170a tests!! That's £300!! And that's just half the story. Every time you fail (yes you can fail the test very easily by the way) a 170a test, they usually recommend a few hours of training to get you up to standard. Having completed nearly a further 8 hours, this has cost me just over a £1,500 on top of my cpl!!!

[Private jet]

Commercial flight training is nothing if not Commercial. I had some very bad experiences when i went through the system. It stinks. A lot of schools/Examiners/CFI's etc plead poverty all the time but i recall all those flying school "shacks" on airfields with new Porsches/BMW's parked outside.....

[yellowsubmarine]

I too have recently been through this FTO and was asked to pay £200 for 2 170A's; in cash. My friend also had to pay twice, and when he asked for a reciept they refused.

I also ended up paying £1500 for hours I am sure I didn't need. Maybe I was a bit naive, but I thought that this was standard practice.

YS

[EK4457]

I'm sorry but I'm absolutely shocked! If true, this is nothing but extaution. This bloke could potentially earn over £10k a year, easily. Tax free. On the back of his students who are probably racked up to the eyeballs in debt.

I'd be on the phone to the powers that be as I left their jumped up portacabin for the last time.

EK

[mad_jock]

He is going to love this being aired on pprune.

Tax man looking at the last 7 years of accounts working out how many tests he has done then charging 40% plus interest.

Better watch out for grumpy examiners in Stapleford. And a huge hike in the fee as now he will have to put it through the books tax and vat will be added.

[anotheradam]

So why can't the examiner also be registered as self employed, and instead of charging £150 through the school which is taxed at a certain rate, charge you £100 cash/cheque that doesn't go through the school's books? How would you know that he/she doesn't pay their taxes. Is it your business? Also a way of having these experienced pilots working at a school for reletively low pay.

[mad_jock]

Cash isn't illegal but the refusal to give a reciept is very illegal.

If it is a hidden cost which you have to pay there are other issues.

Personally the requirment of a flight test outside the CPL course is a huge extorsion exercise.

[helimutt]

Treeshaver. Respect! Someone with the b*lls to come out and say it how it is.
To the other guys who seem to have been conned, please just ring HMRC tomorrow morning and inform them of the situation. (Your costs should all be through the school and kept legitimate. No receipt? You kidding? Are we to let this industry run to bribery and corruption, more than it already is? )
It's easy enough for HMRC to check records of claimed income against tests carried out. I'm sure the CAA or the FTO for that matter, will retain the history of the 170A's.
This industry is expensive enough as it is without people like him fleecing people.
I'd also ask around and find out how many more people did extra hours before getting signed off. If you're put forward for the 170A then it's because the person training you thinks you are capable of passing. Not capable of passing in an extra 5-10 hours!!!


:ugh::mad::mad:

[EK4457]

anotheradam, your attempt to justify this behaviour is outrageous. As mentioned earlier, refusal to issue a reciept is illegal.

The arguement that we will all pay more now is wrong too. It is not a case of the cost of a 170A now going up to cover the tax man. At reputable schools, it is included in the price and they happily advertise that.

I would guess that there is no mention of the requirent of a brown envelope with £100 in it just to complete the course in this particular FTO's glossy brochure. And, as the students are all (by definition) at the end of their course, they have no option but to pay.

Is it your business?

If I'm being asked to stump up a load of cash, with no recipt, for somthing that I thought was included in the price, then yes. It bloody well is.

The 'extra hours' thing is also an age old con. This IS done through the books though, so there's nowt you can do.

EK

[negativeROC]

The CAA dictate that a 170a is required. For CPL the person signing the 170a does not need to have flown with you but they must for IR. I think it is designed to prevent you wasting the £729 test fee (plus aircraft hire) if you are not up to standard. For the poster that has failed the 170a three times so far that 170a signatory (by not signing it) has saved you over £2000 in test fees alone!!!

Maybe you didn't think of it that way

You will all end up paying for the highly experienced instructional staff somehow, either directly or through higher hourly rates etc.

PS EK4457 see page 10 of the brochure............it's there, it dosen't mention cash though to be fair

[mad_jock]

It also says vat is payed on the £100. Which puts you into a whole different scale of trouble if you have been avoiding vat.

Don't :mad: with the vat man.

[EK4457]

For the poster that has failed the 170a three times so far that 170a signatory (by not signing it) has saved you over £2000 in test fees alone!!!

No, it has cost him £300 by being put in for the '170A test' when he wasn't ready for it. The other issue is that it is in his financial interest to keep failing student's 170As. If included in the course, this conflict of interests is removed.

Besides, there is no need, as you point out yourself, for the signatory to actually fly with the student for the CPL. You have just agreed that the flight and the payment are unjustified. Ooops!

You will all end up paying for the highly experienced instructional staff somehow, either directly or through higher hourly rates etc.

Again, no. Most schools do NOT charge you anything for signing a peice of paper.

PS EK4457 see page 10 of the brochure............it's there, it dosen't mention cash though to be fair

I haven't read it and I will not read it. However, like I said previously, there will be no mention of cash only, no questions, no reciept payments there.

EK

[Flying Lion]

As usual , never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!. 170A fees are charged within some companys because the examiner rather than the school pay out for the priviledge to test for Class rating,IR renewal, 170a etc etc. There is a requirement that candidates are flown with on IR and flight is optional on CPL. Within our school we pride ourselves on the high pass rates & we achieve that but by VERY carefully checking standard of candidate prior to test which is why we check both CPL & IR. As somebody has already mentioned in this thread the cost of sitting with a CAA examiner is £729.00p, what you are paying for is a very experienced examiner who has not been involved with your training to put you under test conditions and see how you perform. It is better to fail at this point rather than have to log a CAA flight test fail in your logbook.

With regards to 'cash' payments, the requirement is for cheque or cash & not credit cards purely because as individuals we do not have machines to take cards. The comments that we refuse receipts are totally unfounded although I dont think that particular remark was aimed at this establishment.

These and all other examiner & test fees are clearly stated in our schools literature and I'm sure most other reputable organisations are the same.

[EK4457]

Flying Lion, I completely agree that a school should have very high standards. However, you fail to justify how a mock test with an instructor involves an EXTRA charge of £100. There is a lot of rhetoric about the high pass rate of your school, but there is no explination as to why there is an extra charge. You can acheive the same standards without the charge.

what you are paying for is a very experienced examiner

No, they may well be an examiner, but they are there as an instructor. The instruction cost is included in the hourly rate. When they are using the privilage of their examiner stauts (ie examining) then they get their extra monies in the correct manner. I have yet to hand over cash to any of my CAA examiners.

Anyway, since when was the instruction rate dependent upon their experience? News to me.

What made me laugh was the explaination of why they only accept cash! We know why! The idea that a student could pay by card with the school and then the school get charged by the examiner (like fuel / landing fees / egineering costs etc) is completely absurd! That would be on the books....

As usual , never let the truth get in the way of a good story!!!

I'd be interested to know what is factually incorrect in this thread?

EK

[ford cortina]

Having read all this thread and also read the brochure. I can confrim that ther is a charge of £100.00 for 170A's. This is a offical charge, so why would you pay the examiner directly? Sorry but this is not right, you should be invoiced, end of.
For an examiner/instructor to ask for payment in this way, with no reciept (if true) is wrong. If I was said person, I would be very worried about HMRC getting hold of this.
If I was a candiate I would ley HMRC and also the CAA know as I am sure both parties would be want to know.
Wonder if the person concerned kept records, paid Tax and VAT.

[Lawn Mower]

I am not a grass, however for those who are, the following info was taken from https://www.taxevasionhotline.co.uk/

HM Revenue & Customs Tax Evasion Hotline

HMRC is committed to targeting tax evasion. We know some people don't pay their fair share of tax, which is unfair for the rest of us. Now you can help us do something about it.
The Tax Evasion hotline deals with income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, VAT and National Insurance.
The Hotline can take your call on 0800 788 887 (Lines are open Monday to Friday 8am to 8pm, Saturday and Sunday 8am to 4pm), or you can submit a report here.
No information - however trivial it may seem -is too small. It could be the key to stopping fraudulent or criminal activity.

Time for someone to start sweating perhaps!

[Leezyjet]

I too have recently been through this FTO and was asked to pay £200 for 2 170A's; in cash. My friend also had to pay twice, and when he asked for a reciept they refused.

What about when you asked did you get one ?.

I now have a copy of the brochure and on P10 it does state the charges for the various test fee's, so it is a legitimate fee even if other places don't charge it but it does seem it is collected in an unconventional way.

I just don't see why these fees cannot be paid out of your flying account with the club direct to the examiner rather than this potential loophole of cash/cheque only direct to them with no receipt, or why not just add it on to the cost of the course price so there are no grey areas when it come to paying it ?..

I still don't get where this extra charge is coming from though, you are paying dual rate for the a/c which is £59/hr more for the Arrow than the solo rates so surely this is where the instructor's part of the flight fee comes from, so why is another £100 stuck on top ?. As EK4457 said, they are not actually flying with you as an examiner, just as an instructor who happens also to be an examiner so their fee should be covered by the extra cost of the hire rate and I cannot see how it costs £100 for a form to be filled out.

This argument about having to pay alot of money to get into the position just doesn't hold either. Your line training/sim instructors in the commercial world I'm sure don't take money off you like this, as they are re-imbursed by the company, yet it has also cost them alot of money to get into that position so why should a training organisation be any different ?.

It was never my intention on starting this thread for the club/persons to be named/shamed, merely to find out if this was a legitimate charge and if other schools were doing the same, but maybe this particular club might want to re-evaluate the way in which this fee is collected if they are going to charge for it.

:\