SEP Revalidation

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

For revalidation by experience (12 hours flying time in year 2, 6 as PIC, 12 TO / LDGs and 1 hour training flight) - if all of these are completed within the validity of the current rating how critical is the timing of the paperwork / signature of an Examiner to sign you off for another 2 years?

i.e. can you complete the paperwork and get the signature after the current rating expires having achieved the flying experience within the time frame or does it all have to be complete before the expiry date?

[BackPacker]

Nope. Examiner has to sign before the class rating expires. Otherwise you need to do an exam with the examiner.

[the dean]

GAW...

what back packer more specifically means is that ( as he says ) if the SEL rating has expired , then you will need to apply again to the licensing authority, and they will allocate you an FE who will conduct a flight test...

so if you rating has not expired and if you have the necessary to renew ' by proficiency' then hussel to your nearest FE and get signed up..or fall into he clutches of the 'examiner' again....:eek:

[DFC]

The requirements to revalidate the SEP rating are to complete the 12 hours etc etc and the 1 hour flight with an instructor in the 12 months prior to presenting yourself to the examminer for signateure

It does not have to be within the 2nd year.

The examminer can only sign your licence while the rating is still valid.

If you present yourself to the examminer during the last 3 months of rating validity then the new validity period will run from the expiry date of the original.

If you present yourself prior to the 3 month window then the rating will run from the date that you get the licence signed.

If you do not get the rating signed prior to the expiry of the rating or if you have not got the required experience then you complete a proficiency check with an examiner who will then sign the licence.

In the UK you do not have to contact the CAA to arrange a test/check - just find yourself an examminer - most clubs can recomend one - and make the arrangements yourself.

---------

This whole "must be done in the last year" bull causes far too much cobfusion and pushes people who may only fly once per month into trying to get a signature at the last minute when that simply don't have to wait.

Regards,

DFC

[hugh flung_dung]

GAW:
Ideally you need to get your rating revalidated (by an examiner, there shouldn't be a charge) before it lapses.
Once it has lapsed you can't fly until you have renewed the rating.
Renewal just requires you to fly a skills test which will probably take about 50 mins (if everything goes well); there will be a test fee of around £75.
You do not need to "apply again to the licensing authority" and if you do they will not "allocate you an FE"

As usual with all such queries, LASORS is your friend.

(This all assumes that you have a JAR rating, in the UK)

HFD

[betterfromabove]

Funny, I was in the same situation recently & was assured by several clubs I spoke to that it was the flying rather than the paperwork that had to be done before the expiry date...

They said that if you sent the documents with a covering letter to the CAA with an explanation of the reason for the delay (out of country, sick, pressure of work etc etc) they are known to give you a dispensation.

Any ideas what the truth is??

PS. As it happened, I ended up 1.5 hours short on the solo :D....& so spent some time with Mr Examiner :{

[TheOddOne]

Funny, I was in the same situation recently & was assured by several clubs I spoke to that it was the flying rather than the paperwork that had to be done before the expiry date...

They said that if you sent the documents with a covering letter to the CAA with an explanation of the reason for the delay (out of country, sick, pressure of work etc etc) they are known to give you a dispensation.

Sadly that assurance is misplaced. The revalidation MUST be signed before the expiry date.

I'd be suprised if the CAA were to grant a dispensation. They allow the paperwork to be completed up to 3 MONTHS BEFORE the expiry date without any shortening of the revalidation period, to allow for unforseen circumstances.

The best advice is to get signed up good and early, give yourself peace of mind.

BTW, £75 might be an average test fee, I know of some examiners who charge as little as £30, others as much as £150. Revalidation signoff for non-club members is usually around £30, too. After all, it costs thousands to obtain and keep up an examiner rating, the money has to come back from somewhere...

TheOddOne

[18greens]

Don't leave it until the rating has expired, even by one minute, you need to do a test to get it back (expensive).

As the odd one points out you get three months to get the papers signed so it should not be a problem. The one that really gets me is you can do the flying 11 months 28 days in advance of it expiring then you must twiddle your thumbs for 9 months until the examiner can sign your book -and if you forget and leave it 12 months then you need to take a test. To really mess something up you need the CAA.

[hugh flung_dung]

After all, it costs thousands to obtain and keep up an examiner rating, the money has to come back from somewhere...
Quite right, but I don't charge for revalidations and AFAIK none of the other local examiners do either.

Regarding asking the CAA for a dispensation ... I don't know of anyone who's done it but I suspect that if you worked for the queen and had spent a lot of time recently in hot sandy places you may find a sympathetic ear.

HFD

[betterfromabove]

Odd One....indeed, reval cost flight time+75 quid for the examiner, but as hadn't flown with them before & was commercial school, needed another 2hr for a "pre-exam" flight. Kinda expensive....

The flight was also a full work-out, basically the GFT part of the Skills Test.

Brushing up regularly with an instructor is an excellent idea, but I think I will definitely try & avoid the whole exam experience again...

[hugh flung_dung]

It's a good idea to do some prep for any test or exam but 2 hours sounds a bit OTT.
The test itself is very straightforward:
W&B and perf calcs
NOTAM and wx brief
usual checks, etc
Climb at Vx and Vy
A couple of stall recoveries
Steep turns
PFL
A little Nav
EFATO
Circuits

Details are in the examiner's check list: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1157.pdf
http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/pdfs/annex5.4srg1119tox0710.pdf

HFD

[betterfromabove]

high-flung-dung...

Pretty much what I got in the exam, but no v-x climb, steep turns nor any of the pre-flight stuff checked. Strong emphasis on PFL's & circuit work, which is of course fair enough.

Yes, would have much preferred to go straight into the exam. If you fail or even partial fail, then just like for the Skills Test, it can become a "mock" or simply a good hour or so work-out with an experienced instructor.

Flying (especially dual flying) is expensive enough without having to do flights just to fit in with "club rules" :hmm:

Think there's a strong argument in there for flying (if you can...) with a club that knows you & hence the examiner can perhaps focus in on known weaknesses....dunno.

[Golf Alpha Whisky]

Thanks for your replies! I have all of the flying requirements completed and there is (or as is now the case WAS) a possibility my examiner and I would miss each other by the revalidation date so I wondered if it was possible to miss out by a couple ofweeks and then get it all signed restrospectively and back dated. I've had conflicting advice on this.

I assume that the license has to be signed by the renewal date but the paperwork to the CAA can follow up to a few days after seeing as you can get right up to the revalidation date to get it all done.

Which then begs the question .... how do the CAA know what date it was signed???? :ooh:

[S-Works]

They don't. It is down to us as examiners to be honest.

If you have met the requirements photocopy your logbook, medical and send me the revalidation page and I will sign it and send it back to you for the cost of a self addressed envelope.

PM me for details.

[Slopey]

Also note that if it lapses you *MUST* fly with an examiner!

My class rating lapsed earlier this year, and a CFI sent me off with an FI, and then duely signed the form off and told me I was legal :eek:

Thankfully, I can read, and LASORS is your friend. I believe the CAA had a "word" with him, and I did the proper test a couple of months later (pesky wx) - but it put me out of pocket and kept me grounded!


There were a few new items on the test I'd not done before - recovery from a spiral dive (the FE took over on the steep turn, pushed it a bit further over and pointed downwards before asking me to recover), and also an emergency stop on the runway/taxiway from takeoff power. Hadn't done them before in the skills test (and not mentioned by an FI I'd flown a few hours with previously).

I won't be making the same mistake again, and I'll get my hour in sharpish!!! :ok:

[hugh flung_dung]

This thread is unearthing some lack of standardisation amongst examiners. Although it's not a big deal, a spiral dive recovery is not specifically required on an LST, only on a PPL skill test.
The LST content is in the examiner's record that I linked earlier (hmm, just noticed I screwed-up the links, I'll fix them)

HFD

[sycamore]

Hugh, can the `training flight` be carried out on a private cat Cof A a/c,or must it be a `club PT a/c,and does the instructor have to be current on the type?

[hugh flung_dung]

It's an instructional flight so needs to meet the rules for such things.
To find the answer you need to read AIC 18/2007 (White 133), available here: http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/white/EG_Circ_2007_W_018_en.pdf

Edited to say:
Bu&&er, that AIC has expired (despite it being listed as still current).
The one you want is ORS4 No 680, available here: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_680.pdf

HFD

[Lister Noble]

Hugh,
This is not relevant at the moment as I have just done mine in a club aircraft.
I have read your LASORS link,and assume my question below is answered in the affirmative.
I have a share in an aircraft,so in future is it legal and correct for me to do the two year training flight with an instructor/CFI/examiner,in this aircraft,does my group insurance cover this?
Lister:)

[hugh flung_dung]

To take a phrase often used by our elected leaders: "I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave earlier" (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_680.pdf)

HFD

[Lister Noble]

Hugh,
I am not trying to catch any one out.
As far as I now understand,I can do it my group aircraft with any suitably qualified instructor,as the flight is not a test but a training exercise.
Or have I got this wrong?
I will raise this question within the group.
Lister

[AndyGB]

According to the LAA coaching literature a suitably qualified LAA coach can sign off your bi-annual flight in your own permit aircraft, so presumably it can be your own group aircraft for CofA types as well.

[Them thar hills]

Andy
Quite right !
tth