Paris ATC DEPARTURE & speed control

[relax.jet]

Can anybody of you fellow ATC controllers explain the logic of PARIS ATC?

On departure from ORLY we always have to keep FL90 for a long time, there are many freq. changes and we are still flying only 250kts.
After Xth freq. change we were asked to keep "minimum" 320kts during climb.

:ugh: so we are burning a lot of fuel at FL90, flying slow => staying there for longer time (there is nothing like free speed to get out of there) and then, suddenly, speed change 320kts. That’s again not economical for us and we would burn again much more fuel than flying with econ. speed during climb.

It looks to me like there is no communication between units in Paris airspace. No clue about speed of departing traffic.
No responsibilities about fuel saving => planet & enviroment saving.

BTW if you tell to French ATC on first contact, level, routing and speed they are able to ask you right after "what’s your speed”?
Are they listening to English or only to French?

It’s so frustrating to work with you guys in Paris. Think about it!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[makosa]

Hey relaxjet,

I'm an ATCO in Paris so I might understand your point here.
I guess you're talking about departures to the south and to the east (BATAG?)
You have to maintain FL90 for a while just to let arrivals to ORLY or CDG pass above you , and in France the rule is 250 kts max below FL100 or we might get our ass kicked! (isn't it an ICAO rule by the way?).

If we ask you 320 kts min after passing FL100 that's because we have other departures from CDG or ORLY merging on the same track of yours, behind you, that request high speed climbs (such as heavies or Air France pilots running late).
If you specifically request a different speed for climb just say so and we'll manage :-)

Also it's a good idea to specify your mach number when you arrive in Paris airspace if you plan to land in Orly or Roissy, it helps us sequencing the arrivals (even if sometimes we forget just what you've said ;-) )

[Caudillo]

It’s so frustrating to work with you guys in Paris. Think about it!


Hey relax.jet - I'm thinking of putting in an application to your mob, pay must be fantastic for you to care this much... :rolleyes:

[Scooby Don't]

Wherever I've worked, ATC has been able to cancel the 250kt below 10,000 ft restriction as long the airspace is Class D or higher, as in the see-and-avoid principle does not apply to IFR aircraft. Why can't Paris do the same?

[Heading North]

Hey Relax.jet!
Paris guys are doing a good job! I like having them as an adjacient sector. So I wouldn't open your mouth too much about them having no clue of speed! Maybe it is you who doesn't have a clue of airspace structure??
In 98% there is always a good reason why things are the way they are (rules & regulations), so you can leave your :ugh: away the next time...
Cheers

[makosa]

We aren't allowed by our administration to cancel the 250 kts limit below FL100. We used to do that but now it's over.

[Fargo Boyle]

Quote-Wherever I've worked, ATC has been able to cancel the 250kt below 10,000 ft restriction as long the airspace is Class D or higher, as in the see-and-avoid principle does not apply to IFR aircraft. Why can't Paris do the same?

Not for departing a/c in the London TMA, unless you fly a B747-400.

And it doesnt hurt to look out of the window, especially if I'm working!

Hey, my first post http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Scooby Don't]

Ain't ever worked the London TMA....but if it's all Class A, why on earth would you need a speed limit????

[FougaMagister]

Scooby Don't - if you'd see what the daylight traffic on a London ATC radar screen looks like, it might frighten the hell out of you! I'm quite happy with their 250 KIAS limit below FL100 (then again, 250 KIAS is our Vne anyway ;) ).

As for Paris ATC, I also used to wonder about some of their procedures (having been trained mostly in the UK). But flying a lot in Europe, I now think they are very good. There might be some issues when you are handled by trainee ATCOs (as is often the case for us in the middle of the night) - but otherwise they are fine. Even their procedure of clearing an aircraft to land when still no. 2 or 3 is quite sensible. At least it transfers the responsibility to decide whether or not to land to the crew (who are IMHO better placed to make the call). And yes, I know it's always our call, but at least we don't have to wait for a stupidly late landing clearance like, say, 1/5 nm at some UK airports!

What I agree with is that fuel conservation doesn't seem to be a priority in France; for instance, when inbound from the East and doing an easterly landing, I can't see any airspace reason why we have to fly the long way around in level flight at FL60! Surely, continuous descent approaches would save bags of fuel. Also, why is there typically only one runway open at night for departures (sometimes also used for landings), and one hapless ATCO handling arrivals from FL150 or so, TWR and departures? The result is that when all the FedEx and FedEx feeders leave between 0130Z and 0300Z, we end up in a queue of 10-12 aircraft, including MD-11s, A300-600s, A310s, ATPs, ATRs, etc. The amount of fuel burned there is just stupid, with all the talk of fuel conservation, and petrol at US$125. Having two runways open, one for Northerly departures, one for Southerlies, would largely take care of the problem.

Cheers :cool:

[relax.jet]

OK Guys, thank you for all replays, nice to see your judgements.

I know there is good job done every day over Paris.
I know there is a lot of traffic, safely handled every day over Paris.
I know Paris is very busy sometimes.
I know….

And thank you (Paris ATC) for all of it!

And personally to Mr. Heading North don’t be so arrogant please!
Maybe you didn’t catch the point.
Try to ask any airline to give you a jump seat ride, to see how it looks like from cockpit (fuel flow during 320kt climb). :ugh: