HKCAD criticism

[Rice Whine]

Apparently criticism/discussion of HKCAD and it's ATC problems is not permitted on PPRuNe ???????????????????????

If it is OK to discuss problems in UK, ME, Australia and other places why is HK immune/protected?

Who pulled the thread .... and why?????

[LapSap]

Think the thread originator (lazygal) got cold feet after the last post and deleted the thread. At least I hope its not anything more sinister.

Interesting thread over here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=326361

What chance CAD paying US$800 for an overtime shift? -SFA I'd say!

Guess its just more :mad: useless TOIL and vapourizing leave.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Fascinating thread indeed and not pulled by us.

We have to give you guys the right to change your mind and delete a post. Wouldn't have it any other way - would you?

Binning the first post on a thread kills it off I'm afraid but there's no reason why you can't precis and continue here.

Rob

[Millstream]

From South China Morning Post, along the same lines?

May 10, 2008


My column advocating a third runway for Hong Kong's airport and ways to increase air traffic capacity has attracted a lot of response. Two prominent academics have written articles in other newspapers to discuss the issue. Law Cheung-kwok, from Chinese University, says it is absolutely necessary to build a third runway, but even with one - and an increase to 90 flights an hour - the airport will reach its capacity in 2015. He estimates that the third runway would contribute HK$56 billion in economic gains to Hong Kong.

Thomas Chan Man-hung, of Polytechnic University, points out two constraints on our air industry. First, Hong Kong's development is in conflict with the Pearl River Delta's master plan. Second, the air space is controlled by the mainland.

Despite these challenges - or because of them - building a third runway is imperative. Increasing the capacity of the two existing runways is also feasible. The lack of action is simply due to the bureaucratic behaviour of the Civil Aviation Department.

The replies from Secretary for Transport and Housing Eva Cheng to the Legislative Council on April 30 indicate that she has totally bought the arguments of the Civil Aviation Department bureaucrats.

According to Ms Cheng, Hong Kong's air traffic capacity is limited by the hilly landscape. I think this is nonsense. Kai Tak airport, with a single runway and situated in the heart of an urban area, could accommodate 37 flights per hour. Chek Lap Kok, with two runways and a much more agreeable environment, should be able to handle twice that amount. Indeed, the new airport has been servicing more than 70 flights an hour during peak periods.

Ms Cheng's reply on manpower is also very unsatisfactory. I put it to her that Hong Kong should recruit more air traffic controllers from overseas. Her answer was that a batch of foreign recruits was hired in 1997 but about 70 per cent subsequently quit. She said the lesson learned was that training local staff would be a more cost-effective way to use public resources.

Ms Cheng is obviously being misled by the Civil Aviation Department. Foreign controllers left simply because their pay became unattractive as a result of the fall in value of the Hong Kong dollar. The government could have given them special allowances or improved their working conditions, to help retain them. Attractive pay packages will attract talent not just from the US and Europe, but also from Asia and other regions. The Civil Aviation Department is resisting an increase in air traffic capacity because its manpower is already stretched. It is understood that most air traffic controllers consistently work very long hours and cannot take their leave. Some cannot even take half of their entitled annual leave, with others clocking up more than 200 hours of compensation leave for overtime work.

The planning parameters of the department are to allow 15 per cent of its staff to be on leave at any one time. But, the existing situation is such that, for example, one staff member had to handle stressful work for eight months of her pregnancy. I understand that the staff-shortage situation is even more acute after 6pm, which explains why capacity is lower in the evenings. This kind of working environment will not only damage health, it will eventually affect air safety. This is a problem of mismanagement.

I understand that there are two camps with the Civil Aviation Department. The more progressive group supports increased runway capacity, while the traditional bureaucratic camp is resisting change. The result is that management does not dare fight for the necessary resources to expand its operations.

It is ironic that the government is spending HK$3 billion on the new Civil Aviation Department headquarters, but not a cent on recruiting more controllers. One cannot help but ask whether the government is building a white elephant, or aiming to sharpen Hong Kong's competitiveness in air transport. I think it is time the chief executive looked at the problem. Hong Kong's leadership position in air transport will soon be overtaken by regional competitors if we do not act quickly. We risk losing it forever.

[Alex Mitrokhin]

This has a lot more to do with the current state of the HKCAD than is apparent. The "new wave" of talent, doesn't have much experience, and they don't wnt to admit it.

[throw a dyce]

CAD can start getting out of the problems by buying back TOIL.
Nats AVAA (THE V IS FOR VOLUNTARY:E) rate is £300-£550 per day.At my unit it's £400.CAD have no chance of giving the leave,and will not pay you back when you depart.
Then they have to address numerous issues,one of which is the age of the Gweilos.When I got there I was almost the youngest at 37,and most expats were late 40's to early 50's.I'm 47 now so most of the Gweilos must be hitting retirement soon.I was one of the 70% that worked my contract (QUIT??!!).CAD were such an underhand outfit to work for,that 3 years was plenty for me.The TOIL robbers.:mad:
The biggest problem is CAD being linked with the Civil Service.This must be cut if they have any chance of progressing at all.They can't recruit or modernise without big brother watching over.And they are still sore about losing Kai Tak.:uhoh:Get over it,it's been 10 years now.:ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

I have no criticism of the CAD :E, after all, in these days of flying green, what's wrong with sending people out to do circuits in an aircraft that half the time, the candidate has flown before in another country :ugh:
After all, bumps in the actual a/c were all the rage during WW2 :ouch:
I'm sure poor old Oasis just loved throwing away 50K USD/session to keep their pilots current when there where ZFT sims everywhere :suspect:

" Keep a good look out for Jerry laddy, NO, thats the bomb bay doors not the gear handle !! "

Completely Antiquated and Delusional.

[Lap? Kok? - Chek!]

Fascinating thread indeed and not pulled by us.
...........
Binning the first post on a thread kills it off I'm afraid but there's no reason why you can't precis and continue here.
Rob

Thanks Rob, and heres me thinking there was a conspiracy. I guess the original poster (??????) just got cold feet - probably worried about the fingerprint team .

[PPRuNe Towers]

Everyone's paranoia follows various cycles so binning the thread is disappointing but probably understandable CKC.

Wonder is expressed here after Rice Whine's protest at the top though.

Will we be getting any actual content from said poster or was it just a chance for a moan at us?;):E

Thread's open for folks to get stuck in. Or has the moment passed us by?

Rob

[throw a dyce]

I'm not sure if there will be a lot of feeback from the HK lot.I think they don't want to be identified just incase the CAD witholds gratuities,or doesn't renew contracts.The locals are too scared of Management.I don't really care because I left in 2001,but really absolutely nothing has changed there.Except it's got busier.The article in the SCMP was spot on though.:hmm:

[Rice Whine]

I agree with Dyce regarding the HKCAD employees. Paranoia is rife in Hong Kong for a reason - management really is out to get people.

I, like Dyce, am ex HK so am intimately familiar with the problems that exist there and I have no doubt that things get worse by the year. i do feel however that only those that are left there can contribute accurate information about the situation and what needs to be done.
Once again the paranoia issue raises its ugly head and I understand why people "on the ground" are unwilling to speak out.
The advantage of an anonymous forum like this is that those who are game enough can actually provide some useful and interesting information.
Also, it is up to those people to speak out and make "the outside world" aware of just how bad the situation really is. They are the only ones who can provide the information to the world at large that will bring about changes - management certainly wont do anything unless forced by public/professional pressure - or a very nasty incident.
From what I have read here and in other forums about HK the dreaded TOIL system is being abused even more that in the past and traffic levels are ever increasing whilst staff/experience levels are dwindling.
This, combined with the cr@ppy roster, long commute times and lots of waiting for the bus - to get to and from the ATC complex - can only add up to increased fatigue levels amongst controllers. The ever present battle to get vacation leave and justly earned TOIL only exacerbates the problem.
As anyone in the aviation business knows, fatigue can only result in one thing - vastly decreased performance with predictable results.
Be strong guys (and gals) it is about time HK management woke up to themselves.

[38Controller]

Official Secrets Act :=

[LapSap]

Thank you for confirming to the rest of the ATC world the atmosphere of Fear, Intimidation and Suppression that has been present within our system these past few years.
How about ATMD facing reality and operating to a level that their staff resources allow, rather than pretending that our current level of service can be maintained. Fancy new procedures dreamt up by the guys on the 4th Floor are useless without additional staff. More Sectors??? You must be kidding. We dont even have enough staff to man the ones we have already!
Controllers are sick and tired of working extra shifts for no extra pay to prop up the system. :=

[throw a dyce]

I think the terms and conditions in HK are out in the public domain now,and it up to ppruners to make up their minds.The facts on an employer and it's ways,can have a real impact especially when there is a worldwide shortage of controllers.
The only reason most of the expats went to HK was the money.It was the best in the 90's but it isn't anymore.Most places have caught up,and one or two are better.People put up with the B:mad: lloks and just thought of the cheque.
So what happens when the expats retire soon.Or is CAD going to keep them until you have a 70 year old on approach.:hmm:

[I am retired]

I totally agree, there are a few more expats about to leave and some of them will come as a complete surprise to the powers at be!!!

[By-stander]

I don't think our beloved management is worried about any expats leaving. Rumour has it that George Chow, James Hui, Michael Pang and Peter Lok will be coming back to set up a new sector for old timers.

[throw a dyce]

What's it called,Macau SLOW.:)
You'll have to get the Stenna stairlift installed up to the 6th floor.:):)

[TOIL]

The management encashed the time off in lieu in Kai Tak days, why they don't do that now? Shortage of staff noted, people work on su:mad:ck roster noted... The management should do something to improve the staff morale. "Money makes the mare go".:}

[Kitsune]

Frankly the whole HKGCAD are a bunch of pedantic, worthless time serving beaurocratic tosspots who wouldn't hold down a job as a tai pan in the dunny in Delaneys if they weren't civil servants...... it would save the SAR a whole shed load of dosh if they just sent the department to its sole customer and cut out the middleman. :D:D

[throw a dyce]

I think the ''Traditional Bureauctric Camp'' must be costing the AA and airlines a bob or two.With oil at $126 a barrell and climbing,what is their justification for causing delays.Daaa we miss Kai Tak so much,we'll turn CLK back to 50 years ago and the good old days.:ugh:
Lack of ATC staff is about to implode.Perhaps they aren't aware of the implications of a real nasty.Who are the ones that could be in the dock.Yes the management.:eek:

[2 Dogs]

Hey TAD,

It seems to have gone very quiet in here lately.
U think the memos have been flying around the 5th floor telling everyone to watch their P's and Q's ??? :) :) if they want to stay employed !!

[throw a dyce]

Hey 2 dogs,
Yes I think you're right.I suppose most of the Gweilos will milk the cash cow for as long as possible before retiring.The locals are too scared.
Well out of it.:D

[Lovely_Management]

Rice Rhine:

Which Division of the HKCAD should be subject to criticism? Name it, so that each of us will give it a kick.

2 Dogs was being pointed as suspect, why not he kick off first since he is no longer bound by the Official Secret Ordinance.

beep beep, kickoff!

[LapSap]

What is the relevance of the Official Secrets Ordinance to deserved criticism of ATMD Management? No secrets there!

The management encashed the time off in lieu in Kai Tak days, why they don't do that now?

TOIL. What rate did they pay out at? 1 for 1 or something more in line with the rest of the world? Knowing the bureaucratic pen pushers in town, they would have got out of it cheaply.

[2 Dogs]

This thread is about HKCAD ATMD ... perhaps you should start the game with a swift drop-kick to the 4th floor.

(Sound of loud whistle in background)

[M89speedtouch]

Apparently criticism/discussion of HKCAD and it's ATC problems is not permitted on PPRuNe ???????????????????????

Let's see how this link goes Rice Whine:

http://www.cathaypilotsunion.org/

[throw a dyce]

Toil,
They paid out NOTHING.The records are 3months behind,so it was just forgotten about.
That's after they robbed 100 hours off me,after losing the details.They say they don't keep the records that long.LIE they do,every nano second is listed for ever.They won't pay out when you leave.
HK ATMD are a bunch of thieving liers.:} Swift kick in the nadgers.:ouch:

[TOIL]

... perhaps you should start the game with a swift drop-kick to the 4th floor.

As well as 3rd floor, please!

[LapSap]

Seems they've gone to ground on the TOIL figures. Latest updated figures for ATCOs on the board in the Centre are still December 07 - 5 months behind!

TAD
I believe "TOIL" was refering to Kai Tak days - before you got here if I remember rightly. Things haven't got any better, as you can see above.

[throw a dyce]

Lap,
No I did a month in Kai Tak,listening to PP's war stories.;) Then out to Moonbase Alpha.The Toil figures went bananas when they moved from Kai Tak to CLK.It went from a paper system to computer(yeah right) and a lot of people at CLK vanished from the system for a month.They lost the records for that time.They owe people still there a lot of time.Others were put on a punishment roster to claim back the time.5 days on,1 off to claim back for their mistakes.Dangerous and I bet they will still try it.
Only 5 months behind to produce that load of C:mad:p.

[meinhk]

throw.... Give us all a break,pal. We are sick of hearing for the past 4 years of how you were robbed of toil. Get a life,get over it . Truth is that you are still not over the fact that they fired you.

[throw a dyce]

Meinhk,
Sure I'll get a life.Happened when I left HK.You should get your facts straight,that I left by my own free will.:ok: You can ask to see my staff record if you want PAL.I don't/didn't have to grovel to CAD,because I can't work anywhere else.
It wasn't me the started the TOIL thing,but if you're happy with that system,good for you.If you worked in the real world,where they pay for overtime,you will may note that 12 days overtime= around £6000 or about HKD 90000.You lot get Scottish Football Association.:D
CAD want you to face front and shut up.Looks like it's working.Too scared that the gratuity won't be paid?.:hmm: If you want me to stop contributing,then I suggest you log off pprune.:=

[Lovely_Management]

........Give us all a break,pal. We are sick of hearing for the past 4 years of how you were robbed of toil. Get a life,get over it . Truth is that you are still not over the fact that they........

Shuu.....Quiet! He is from the Management aka bro4 aka womanizer aka a piece of sh:mad:it.

[2 Dogs]

Seems you have stirred up a few people on the TOIL issue. Fact is EVERYBODY has been screwed for TOIL. The difference is we are not getting screwed anymore and we aren't working in Hong Kong anymore (whether by force or free will) and THEY ARE. No wonder they are pi55ed :) :}

[throw a dyce]

And we get pay rises as well.:ok::D

[2 Dogs]

And we get pay rises as well.:ok::D

Yep ..... and rumours/promises of another BIG one here before the end of the year. :) :) :)