Emirates DEC

[767jock]

Any word on sim ride at Emirates DEC loft?

[Chuck Y]

I will be very surprised if you get any replies since all the f/o's there are already plunging needles into a tiny voodoo doll with you likeness!!!!
But anyway as I understand it is a pretty straight forwards sim ride. So all the best.

[roclfly]

Just stay away from here, 3 year Fo are getting delay for command because of you. get lost.

[mensaboy]

Yes........ the DEC sim ride is on an A343. You get one fault prior to push, and then one on taxi, then an engine failure at V1 out of Johannesberg. Then shortly after you are starting climb to acceleration height you get another engine failure on the same side. (max weight)

Then the Purser comes up and says there is a drunk pax who was caught fondling a local boy. Then SMNC calls you on ACARS and is wondering about your dual engine failure, just about the time you are struggling with control of the aircraft.

Then your wife calls you on the new EK cell phone system questioning you about this Lebanese chick who called that evening asking for you.

Then the F/O sitting beside you, who happens to be waiting for his command a year after the FOM said he would get it............ gives you a look. And since you are American, you calmy ask........... YA'LL with me now?? To which his furrows his brow and watches you fly into the terrain. The moment before impact (in the sim), you get on the radio and calmly state, in your best Chuck Yeager voice............ K, undershtand..... cleared down 240, roger that !!!

Fortunately since Captain American is evaluating you, he faults the FO and writes him up while commending you on your excellent CRM abilities.

OH wait, sorry, that is the sim ride minus the evaluation, for the average FO here. YOU will get a VFR circuit and an ECAM cabin fan fault. Hope you can handle that one! JUST STATE " ECAM actions, YOU have control." Don't get yourself into a situation where you actually have to show your handling skills. THen again, based on your totally disrespectful and uninformed question, YOU might not want to do much talking in the sim or the interview for that matter.

[5star]

I can't believe it. :ugh: The guys in Fleet did it again and screwed up the crewing/upgrades once more?
I wonder what they do the whole day up there. No doubt : Another masterpiece of modern Indian planning.

I feel really sorry for the guys being shafted... once more.
I start wondering what would have happened if the fatty Bus would have been delivered on time......

First Officers considering applying : you have been warned.
again.

[Bandit FO]

Don't wory about it to much, you'll do fine. Welcome! Can't wate to fly with you!

[hans_airbus]

Shame on you guys. Its the System. He is just a colleague looking for a job.

I hope i will never fly with somebody with an attitude like this.

[Saltaire]

It would be a fairly basic scenario. They are looking for good crm and some decent RT wouldn't hurt either....

The DEC is a volitile subject ( obviously ), but the boys from the States would understand why que jumping and out of seniority movement is such a toxic subject.

In the end, it is the ek system

[nolimitholdem]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH! I nearly choked on my Muesli at mensaboy's post!

[767_FO]

mensaboy (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=111379),

How many times have you been bitch slapped in the cockpit?

[alwayzinit]

Ah "mensaboy?" did the nice gentleman asking a simple question touch a nerve?

For peps like me not in Mensa, the DEC thing on the face is tough on FOs already here, however, EK is a business not a charity organisation. To wit there is a little thing called insurance. The premiums for a wide body with a recently upgraded Capt crewed with a brand new on type FO are truly astronomical.

SIA have been doing the same thing for years (20+) trying to up the experience levels overall to keep the premiums down. Yes I know a fair number of FOs have had previous commands, but any promise from any manager is like a tampon...............always has strings attached.

Secondly training costs double if you upgrade all your fos and then train new ones.

Without meaning to sound trite, where in the FOM does it say life is fair, it's not, never has been, never will be.

That being the case you can let life's injustices eat you up or file them in the life experience file and move on.............and yes I have also been screwed in aviation more than once but the sun still comes up the next day.

Seriously "Mensa" good luck when your upgrade when it comes.:ok:

Alwayz

[7x7]

The premiums for a wide body with a recently upgraded Capt crewed with a brand new on type FO are truly astronomical.Unbe****inglievable. Brian, give it a rest, buddy. They love you lots already in at EGHQ. You don't need to strain your creative juices to this this degree of imbecility to curry more favour with them.

Quick question: just how many Pprune identities do you have?

[Gypsy]

I'm afraid this is one of things of our industry that gets me going.

Would a Senior Hospital Consultant that has to move house for family reaons or whatever be expected to start at his new Hospital as a junior House Dr.?

To all the EK F/O's waiting for their commands - most of you will one day be a Capt but are you going to stay in EK until you reach retirement age. Maybe some will but it seems like a long time doesn't it so my guess is many of you won't.

After 5 or 10 years or more LHS on your 777 or 340 or whatever else turns up, will you be marketing yourself as a F/O when you want to leave?

I think not...............!

So get over this DEC thing - everyone in the LHS has been through what you are going through somewhere in their career.

[mensaboy]

Listen, I don't hold it personally against DEC's who come here with a decent attitude. Clearly 767Jock has no clue how SHE is disenfranchising (latest US garble word) the FO's here.

She pissed people off because she comes across as one of those potential DEC's who have benefited from strick union seniority rules and now feels it is acceptable to come to an airline that should never have started a DEC policy in the first place.

Would it be so difficult to start off by saying.... ''Hey my apologies to those whose upgrades are being delayed by this insane policy....... but if they don't hire me, they will hire someone else. Any info avail. on the sims? Much appreciated.'' Tact works a great deal better than arrogance.
DEC based in Chicago flying 767's, female.

Potential F/O's, you have been warned. ~1000 F/O's here now, ~double the fleet in 6 years? ~ 30 DEC's a year Do the math ! Seems to me that in the long run, upgrade timeframes are going to vastly increase.

Then again, F/O's hired in the last 3 years should have known the consequences of the policy so I will stop defending them and stop bitching about what I believe to be the stupidest policy this company has ever instituted.

Bring on the DEC's, I really don't care anymore.

[5star]

:E
Some seem not to realise that some FOs over here are in their mid 40s and have +10K hours and +10Y command and take the pain in the RHS knowingly that they will get their command back eventually. Poor guys.

Anyway for new joiners... If you get an EK contract and you are sheduled to start on the Bus: Things don't look good for you...
I would start exercising those back mussels and getting ready to bend over ALL THE TIME.

Anyway you will have other issues on your mind after you join... You'll be glad your family survives the accommodation mess over here. :cool:

[767jock]

MENSABOY. I'm wondering what your back ground is? Were you a part of a failing company? Have you been a widebody Captain, LCA, TRE for the last 13 years? How about the American furlough pilot at EK that has had his upgrade delayed by the company. How about the UAE captain that had an unstabilized approaches 2 times and they said, "Don't do that my friend"? Also, KAL, Jet Airways is hiring DEC. Seems like the way it is in the ME and Far East. Im not saying its right but, it's the way it is. Your right I changed my mind, thank you. I am now going to apply for a regional jet copilot job with a 2000 wonder captain for $600 a month.

[mensaboy]

That is the best you can do 767Jock. You have to be kidding. I somewhat felt bad after slamming you based on your insensitive and ill-informed post but now I am thinking I hit the nail on the head.

Quote,

''How about the American furlough pilot that has had his upgrade delayed by the company. ''

My god girl.......... do you not see the irony in your statement? Seriously, you might want to go back and delete that portion of your post. Honestly, ''how about the American furlough pilot that (which should in fact be.. WHO) has had his upgrade delayed by the company. WOW !!!

Quote,

How about the UAE captain that had an unstabilized approaches 2 times and they said, "Don't do that my friend"?

What are you talking about? Thanks for showing your ignorance, please keep posting. The one and only Captain who did 2 unstabilized approaches on the same day(as I recall about 5 years ago) GOT FIRED !!! In fact, he wasn't even flying if memory serves me correctly. His fault lay in not ''covering his ass with an ASR''. So what exactly is your point? Let me guess.......... WE NEED THE EXPERIENCE OF FLYING GENIUSES LIKE YOU to avoid further incident, hahaha.

Quote,

''Also, KAL, Jet Airways is hiring but, with your attitude good luck getting hired. Mr. Professional.''


Are you from some other planet? What are you talking about? Are you suggesting that EK DEC's are in the same realm of requirement as KAL DEC's ???

It is so funny reading posts from idiots with a smidge of information, who can't be bothered to delve into issues more. Then again based on your anemic response, I know that I lucked out in my assessment of you.

I truly was feeling a bit sheepish for slamming you, I mean really, your first post was one sentence. Now I am relieved that I was correct.

I think we have a possible candidate for Ms Captain America. Stunned, in her own world, knowing little of consequence and only thinking of herself. Congrats you 13 year LCA, TRE, Captain. Clearly we should be thankful to have the likes of you to save us from ourselves !! Nice attitude.

[fatbus]

Soon , very soon, Ek will have more US pilots than any other group. It will be very interesting to see how things change within the whole company. All we can get now are RJ pilots. If we are lucky 372 guys

[330 Man]

Sounds like 767jock is another of United's crack aviators. It is a very real possibility that the only reason she got hired there in the first place was because she had low time and was female. Although Chicago and the 767 she could be at American. Affirmative action at it's best!

You got alot of balls lady to tell an EK pilot how it is at Emirates. You don't know squat!

And while you are at the accusation stage, do not forget the Delta DEC that was demoted to the right seat (actually he was fired but then reinstated as an F/O) for the unstabilized approach into Nice. And do not forget the NW DEC that came so close to being EK's first accident in Damascus due to an unstabilized approach. He is now a F/O as well.

My point is you are making a huge mistake by coming here as a DEC with attitude. You will never make it through training. You have also put a target on your back by being so vocal with that same attitude. Don't forget that there are many pilots in the training department here that had upgrades delayed by the DEC program. If they have read this thread they will be waiting for you with baited breath. And you will not be too hard to pick out of the crowd.

As an american I am telling you. You need to loose the American "bluster". It won't fly in the desert. If you want to fly for Ek then by all means do. I came as a F/O being just as qualified and experienced as you. You should do the same.

330 man

[desertflyer]

Pick a nationality.....north, south, east or west or even ground zero. Emirates has lost them all over the years. Doesn't matter where you're from, just matters what you do!:ok:

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

All Upgrade courses have been cancelled for the summer according to a reliable source at Mission Control. Too many Captains apparently, not enough trainers and the ever increasing requirement to train US RJ FO's.

The best that we can probably manage this year is to recruit 400 pilots based on present recruitment rates. Even then we are stretched.

Good news is, courses have been scheduled for after the summer.

[Wiley]

Soon , very soon, Ek will have more US pilots than any other group. It will be very interesting to see how things change within the whole company. All we can get now are RJ pilots. If we are lucky 372 guysI agree it will be interesting - as it was first time EK employed a large group of Americans.

Most EK drivers here will be too young to remember I.K., probably the most "stellar" of the stars of the first lot of DECs EK employed from the land of Mom an' Apple Pie. He too, eventually received the (apparently coveted) DCM (=don't come Monday) award from EK, but as far as the hapless FOs who had to fly with him and hold his hand, about three years after he should have.

Others will remember the other American DEC who changed villas so many times, the company put a stop to it, forbidding everyone from doing what, until that one individual screwed it for everybody, had been a particularly popular perk of the job - the ability to do a villa swap or move by mutual consent.

That same individual took it upon himself to rip up the astro turf his neighbour had laid on the roof of his garage a day or two after the neighbour moved out, leaving the place in a terrible mess - and the fellow who moved out responsible for the repair as far as the Housing Dept was concerned. The result? Housing Department now insist a villa or apartment must be left in EXACTLY the state it was in when you moved in. All improvements MUST be removed - with no exceptions. All thanks to that one individual.

767jock, (BTW, that's a very gender-confused 'handle'), I think you should "come on down" to EK. With the attitude you've displayed on this thread so far, you'll fit very snugly into the mould some of your countrymen have made for themselves here.

[australiancalou]

What is your union doing against that DECs hiring???:suspect::}:}

[Cityliner]

Maybe there will be a "US Navy Veteran" Basecap for everyone instead of a payrise :ok:

Do be honest I am a bit surprised about the obviously high failure rate of DECs!
Thought training at NW/DL is of the same standard like at LH/BA/AF!
"Leaving level 11 thousand for level 25"O" or confirming a takeoff clearance just by saying "roger" is kind of unprofessional but, I thought the safty culture and the level of training is very similar!
Are EK expectations so much higher than with EU or US majors?
What is the "normal" background of an EK DEC?
Is there in explanation for the failure rate of DECs?

[GMDS]

Is there in explanation for the failure rate of DECs?

You are saying that the US training level is similar to other main players. Maybe yes, but a lot of DECs were trained only on narrow bodies, with their engagement profile, or even only on RJs.
I know these jockeys don't like to hear this, but it sure makes a difference how many tons you haul, for how far and into what environement.
There lies the biggest obstacle to overcome and the main criticism from FOs about working with such DECs.

[White Knight]

Well GMDS, I always figured that if you fly the MCP/FCU with the A/P, or manually with the stick, the rest of the aeroplane FOLLOWS - be it 370 tonnes , 180 tonnes or 45 tonnes - or even a Navajo!!!!!!
Get over your weight problem. Flying is not rocket science - just that a fair few at EK make it out to be.... "Ok, Dubai - cat A airfield, terrain to the south (this on a gin clear day?), etc etc etc"
I will agree that environment makes a difference.

[alwayzinit]

Hey "Mensa"

Brain? or Brian ?

Not even warm :ok:

Alwayz

[GMDS]

the rest of the aeroplane FOLLOWS - be it 370 tonnes , 180 tonnes or 45 tonnes - or even a Navajo!!!!!!

.... and let Granny drive the 40ton 18-wheeler! It's no different to her Corolla, ain't it? We heard similar BS before, from someone higher up.
Just read the weekly incident reports and count the number of unstabilised approaches. "Short radar vectors" - my a$$ - sounds like a ME blaming game where the author is in it for nothing.

Again, I am not tarnishing anyone, everybody will eventually end up a good pilot. All it takes is adequate training and experience, and that is blatantly missing. Without, they are simply not yet up to the task. Those who ridicule this, for whatever reason, might just qualify.

[White Knight]

A license to drive an HGV - 40 tonne truck - is VERY different from your average 'corolla' license. I know that from experience with big 18 wheelers... Besides, the new rigs being 'drive by wire' - yep, I'll bet my gran could drive one..

Flying very well, very averagely or very poorly largely boils down to ABILITY - although good training and experience can mitigate this to an extent... You can go through the EK 'rocket science by oz-mates' training school and still only be a fairly average aviator (whatever your background) - I've flown with some guys recently who make you sit up just that little straighter if you know what I mean:\

[peternorth]

I do have to say in defense of the RJ guys. Anyone who slags them off should try what they were doing, be it in europe or north america. Someone was peeing their pants about an autoland in Perth below limitsor some bull****?....Why dont you try hand flying a Cat 3A off a HUD in a 20 kt crosswind. No autothrottle, manual go around in an aircraft that wants to dive when you apply GA thrust (different thrust couple from the biggies chaps). Yes you do get Cat 3 wx with that kind of wind in some places in the world maties. 5 legs a day, blah blah blah.

Why not show a bit of respect? Some didnt learn to fly in a jumbo.

[Capt. John Doe]

Wow...although I have no interest flying in the Middle East, but come on guys, airplane's an airplane. It has engine(s) and wings. It's not that difficult to learn how to fly one - be it a little RJ or a jumbo jet. Actually, I felt the 777 and 744 were easier to fly than a turboprop...

[GMDS]

Ok Peter.

I always said, i do not belittle anyone. The RJ guys have done their part, agreed. We've all heard the tales about LCY and what it took to fly it.
Now just how would these RJ jockeys react, if i'd pretend that because i am a heavy jockey, i'd be able to switch seats and fly such approaches like a dream in a RJ80??? .... They always say "...nahhhh, it really takes some training, adaption and experience to be able to wrestle these birds down into the city ......." -- Aha! --

Every operation is different. That's my point: A RJ, even a 73 or 320 skipper is not just born to take a -500 or -300ER seat due to his ability.
IMHO it is bad practice to take DECs who have not flown similar equippment or in similar environement. It is per definition NOT Direct entry.

[White Knight]

Indeed GMDS - I'm generally in agreement about that:ok:

[Capt Vertigo]

GMDS / White Night

"Every operation is different. IMHO it is bad practice to take DECs who have not flown similar equippment or in similar environement. It is per definition NOT Direct entry."

Well said! Absolutely right. :D

It goes to say "Good practice to take DECs who HAVE flown similar equipment or in similar environement" It is then a defination FOR DIRECT entry CMD...right!! :ok:

Any problem there dear AVIATORS ????

Happy and safe flying.!!

[White Knight]

Except for the F/O's who are waiting for their courses MR VERTIGO.....

Get a grip man:yuk:

Edited to add: Experience on type and routes doesn't always count, when you've not got the ability. I did have a couple of fun trips with a couple of the first DEC's back in '04. All that 330/340 time they had - they may as well of been flying kites:eek: Oh yeah, they had that magic 10000 hrs that aar so covets:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Billy Madrid]

1. Dear Capt Doe.
I tend to agree with the " An airplane is an airplane" So could you explain why all the US majors pay a 777 diver a lot more than the regional’s pay an E145 driver for as you guys say in the states “I have no clue!”

2. Also whilst agreed the East coast in the winter can be a challenge it is also fair to say you have numerous options (airfields) if diversion is required.

It's not really the same flying over K2 and having an engine failure and then trying to explain to the DEC where the engine out drift down options are located in the manuals that some (Due arrogance) have neglected to read.

As I have said before, not all are bad but the ones that come here with attitude are dangerous. Even more so because they don’t even know they are dangerous.

Now EK is to blame for the ridiculous policy but the DEC’s are also responsible for their attitude. Gents try treading lightly and acting professionally(Some not All). Again the ones that should take this advise are the ones that will ignore it
Billy

[helen-damnation]

TW@ :rolleyes:

[EK_Bus Driver]

Dear Mr Swish,

In view of some of your previous posts;


"I come from Eastern Europe
I will never forget the F--ker from Oz, who on purpouse looked at my first log-book, upside down (it is in Cyrilic) just to make a point...
That was at an Emirates interview in Sept '97. He was a senior instructor on the 310...
I hate my job now, because in my dozen years of expat flying I had to prove I was at least 3 times better than everybody else on the short list, just coz I speak English with East European accent...
But beware "good guys" - we will pull the carpet from under yr feet soon, coz we r good n cheap:mad:
Basil, U know wah to do wit dat long finger of yrs, dat U wave at us, EE pilots...

Last edited by swish266 : 17th July 2006 at 21:15. "

AND

Quote: "Re: Latest EK selection news To d guys like LHR-R:
8000+ B767, 4000+ PIC B767, 5 continents - Do I qualify, Mate?
To the others:
Would U guys mind telling me how many of the following the average B777 captain's roster has each month:
1. B-to-B subcontinent (Pak, Ind, Bang) flts?
2. Long haul E-W of more than 9 hours?
3. Days away fro DXB?
4. Days in DXB incl stbys?
5. Flt duty hours?
This **** bout factoring of FDH for inflt rest, is it on?
I need to make a fast decision should I join yr happy/unhappy crowd.
Spare me d details bout accom n rest. I know DXB very well!
Tnx a lot whoever contributes a sensible input!;)
P.S.: I would appr if s/one sends me a sample B777 captain's roster. "

AND

QUOTE: " I feel exactly this way.
15 yrs of expat jobs killed my love for flying! I did not choose to leave my homeland - my a/l went under.
I am 43 but I am ready to go tomorrow. Still need to fly for another 7 though, so I can sail round the world like Immelmann wants.
My Dad's buddies all died within 2-3 years of 60. The lack of stress just killed them.
People say best 10 years of your career are 50-60. I would say the money we save between 50-60 pays for surviving untill 70.
Is this what I want? "


AND

QUOTE: " 'Nam & India I worked for HVN in the late '90ies, for 3.5 yrs. After I left, I used to say - "Will go back there only on a B52 with nukes".
Actually after spending 57 days on layovers in India in 2005 and doing 17 trips by June 2006 my choice is Vietnam.
Sorry guys.
I am scared to fly into India. Looking at the TCAS is one thing but listening on the radio is... mind-bogging! I've placed a 100USD bet that there will be a major accident in the next 6 months.
I started my expat flying in 1995. I can tell U - nobody will dish out d big bucks for a good look and a decent accent. They throw the big bucks at U because the job is crap - its risky.
On my last 3-day layover I had an open wound on my ankle (a rope burn) that was nicely healing. Guess what - it got infected in Bombay!!!
In a piss-pit like India and Vietnam an expat must consider above and before all the health issues... Because, "no honey, no money"...
A fellow pilot was diagnosed with viral meningitis in Saigon way back in '97. The air ambulance arrived within 2h from SIN - it took 8h to do his paperwork at customs&immi - they almost lost him.
Imagine U are driven to a flight in one of the shiny new Atoses or Indicas and U get smashed by a truck?! No medevac for U - you will bleed to death before any help gets to you through the traffic caused by the rubberneckers. And if at all U get to the hospital on time... Not worth going on...
I am just in the right mood to enlighten you guys, that think that can make a nice buck while on furlough...
On an expat job you are treated like an attachment to the a/c. Not a fragile human being, be it India, Vietnam, China or any other 3rd world place...
God Bless the uninformed!:mad:
Amen

Last edited by swish266 : 6th July 2007 at 11:26. "

AND QUOTE: "A few Golden Rules "
A Captain should:


Lead by example.
Not expect his crew to do something he doesn't like or can't do.
Never forget he started from the right and a PPL.
Offer comments only if the F/O has indicated they are welcome. Unless of course it's training.
Be humble enough to analyse his own mistakes for the benefit of the crew.
Adapt to his F/O's level of performance rather than expect vice-versa.
Be a Diplomat rather than a Dictator.
Involve/consult his crew about a decision, even if it is obvious his/her experience has led him/her to the right one.
Always be prepared to leave his mindset, even God made a few mistakes."I can go on for a while but should be off to ZRH with an overexperienced lady F/O and a newly released young guy... I hope I do not forget any of the above...;) "








In view of these wonderful and highly informative and I must say intelligently constructed Posts. :yuk: We can all probably assume that you are a 44 year old Eastern European (previously rejected by E.K.). A highly experienced expatriat B767 Pilot with more than 6,ooo hours :ooh: who hates everything to do with India (and F/O's :uhoh:). And above all - with one HUGE CHIP on your shoulder.

I am sure our undeserving and highly under experienced F/O's will really enjoy a shafting from the likes of you BUDDY.

Enjoy the "Fun Fun Fun" in the 3rd World mate, coz with your attitude that's exactly where you will probably still be in 7 years!

I doubt very much that you can even spell C.R.M. :yuk::yuk::yuk: :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[411A]

IMHO it is bad practice to take DECs who have not flown similar equippment or in similar environement. It is per definition NOT Direct entry.

Hmmm, if this is the DEC recruitment policy, it needs to be changed, pronto.
SV, as one example, years ago required from DEC applicants minimum 3000 hours command in 4-engine heavy jets, prior to being selected...and no, any military flying didn't count.

Putting small airplane drivers into quite large airplanes can be done, but the training costs can go waaay over budget....and usually do.

[Billy Madrid]

You really are not the sharpest tool in the box are you. Most people would have stopped digging but not you.
So now we know who you are, I suggest that some of those disadvantaged F/o's on the bus are now trainers on the Bus and quite capable of reading PPRUNE. Even more will become trainers and most will have very long memory's.

I hope you enjoy your Sim check rides with these guys, I'm sure it'll be real FUN showing them how much your 767 time counts for nothing on an EK BUS.

Tread carefully or expect to be back flying 767's on 6 month temporary contracts out of china, sooner than you expected!

Billy

[Saltaire]

Another fine example of the bottom of the barrel individuals that can slip through the cracks and why the DEC option is a bad idea. Yikes.

[goma]

Whilst I understand the frustration and ill feeling from current EK FOs waiting there turn for Command and seeing DECs filling the posts dont forget__________

When you eventually leave EK as an experienced Captain (most eventually do) will you be applying and accepting a FOs position with a new company?.

As unfortunate as it is it is called market forces and no one can blame DECs apllying.

Im with your thinking but but think ahead!!

Ps I have not applied to EK :ok:

[Manyarra]

I am sure all those FO'S whinging about DEC's would not market themselves as Captains in the future if/when they decide to leave EK...that would be blatant hypocrisy wouldn't it!!!:ok:

[Billy Madrid]

On My upgrade there were only 2 guys out of 16 with less than 10,000 hours. One was a cadet. All but 4 had had a command before.

Most DEC programs are at airlines with low hours F/O's and there is a need for some perceived experience.

This is not the case at emirates where you need 4000 hrs total including 2000 jet to join as an F/o.
Now most guys with that sort of experience are commanders (LCC) or senior F/o's at their current airline.
The DEC policy is wrong. It's a cost saving exercise. When you join as a DEC you will experience Emirates cost neutral style and then bitch about it.
If you are out of work then I see why you would come but we have guys that have retired from BA on a fat pension just to make it tax free, including management.
Most F/o's don't hold anything against the DEC's, except when they are incompetent and or arrogant, which unfortunately they often are (Both)

Several Dec's have downgraded to F/o whilst none or nearly none of the upgraded F/o's have.
Anybody fancy taking-off over Max takeoff Weight deliberately today?
One of MANY examples I’ve seen on ULR trips.


Billy

[Billy Madrid]

The reason we need DEC's now is because of the DEC policy.
Goma as you say why would anybody join as a F/o if you know that you will jumped by the DEC's.
Why not stay where you are, get the hours and then if you still want to come, come as a DEC. So not many F/o's are joining and our current f/o's can't be upgraded because there is nobody to replace them. We need Captains.... answer get more DEC's. It will only get worse.

Emirates don't see this. They should make a statement that there will be No more DEC's and then maybe the guys will come as f/o's and people can be upgraded.Will they no. Why
It's a reactive airline not a proactive airline when it comes to staff.

Billy

[Fart Master]

As was said above, Emirates does not need DEC's, there are enough capable FO's who can upgrade.:ok:

The only reason these W**kers do it is because in the SHORT term it saves money.... actually no it doesn't save money in the short term because most of the DEC's require additional training.:mad:

But hey, why care about company morale, who gives a s*it about that:ugh:

[fatbus]

EK need piloits, thats it. If they cant get enough F/O's then DEC's. Right now the few extra Capt's on the bus come from within, upgrades pushed back because everyone telling their mates DONT come. The result is a larger number of F/O's reguire more training due to there back ground. The other issue is a hugh increase in extra taining / failures on the 777 upgrade, quick fix delay the 777 upgrade and back fill with DEC's, company could care less about your upgarde compared to getting airplane's in the air ( read record profits)

[atiuta]

For the record, any FO posting here and complaining about DEC's knew full well what the policy was when they joined.

They will also, no doubt, be the first in the line should a better DEC opportunity present itself. Perhaps they will decline opportunities where they deem the advertising airline has "no need for perceived experience".

I'm not a proponent of the DEC policy either, but I do find it rather droll to hear the same old drivel about those nasty DEC's when the plantiff was fully aware of the incumbent policy.

One for the DEC's, could we cut the complaints about the rostering. Catching the long snake to the bottom of the rung was also a known quantity. Fortunately you have a rotating bid system.

[EK_Bus Driver]

Good job EK Bus Driver,
I guess there are not too much Eastern European DEC with EK. But there will soon be one more. So U can print all my stuff and carry it in your flight bag. Sooner rather than latter we will get to read it together on these longeeesh sleepless nights, Mate!




Mr Swish,
My Dear Chap, you underestimate me!

The only way we will be flying together will be on a Line Check or SIM evaluation MATE! I'm sure the Flight Training Scheduler will also be able to roster you with a F--ker from Oz (or 2 :E) .And it will be real fun, fun, fun !! As they are notoriously thorough in assessing Flying skills. Also rest assured that all my Colleagues in the Training Department will be VERY thoroughly examining your superior C.R.M. skills (as we do with ALL DEC's) before we allow you to fly our new shiny Jets with our underserving F/O's, especially the overexperienced ones.

You see my Eastern Friend, it is not just F/O's that are unhappy with the whole DEC philosophy and it's associated Policies (and PROBLEMS). ;)

[5star]

Wee one,

Yep mate. There are guys around with this experience level. Just not enough command time +55T and there you go...
Some guys are pretty desperate to come here. But at least they join the cue at the end.

I heard that after the numerous downgrades of DECs they decided to throw the DEC thing overboard...

Seems to me that the problem is some individuals from a country with +1B population in near Asia cooking these brilliant plannings for our fleets. Nobody second guesses them and they got it wrong AGAIN..... Sorry for the ones being shafted....

oooh I love these Dilbert cartoons.....

[Pimp My Ride]

There would be no need to come to Dubai as a DEC if the sheckels were better. Truth is the F/O new joiner money + 9% isnt up to what most guys with 8000 hrs 3000 cmd are leaving behind.

So why come at all? Very good question. Actually an agonisingly good one. The LCC / short haul envirnoment isn't one you can survive indefinately. Its one big gamble, but count me in anyway.

The DEC route is the only option where the money at day 1 is ok. The F/O route is the more practical and may I suggest moral.....I'm coming as a F/O, and sorry to repeat myself again but the money isn't wonderful. From what I can see Emirates does not need DEC's, but they are handy and cheap and quick. Accountants like handy, cheap and quick. One other thing I think most have missed here, as far as I know the UAE and Dubai are not democracies, niether is Emirates Airlines. So if you take the gamble, like me you gotta be prepared to loose.

I havent joined yet and I know lots of guys with lots of command time to add to their new wide bodied time. This should equal wide body capt.

[Geragau]

For fellas who threaten DECs with their threats of EK trainers having long memories, well what goes around comes around. There are DECs who will become TREs/TRIs and they too can extract their pounds of flesh. Sheesh, the cheek of some..........:ugh:

[trimotor]

DEC's recruitment is here to stay - the quote attributed to TCAS was that he'd rather have a DEC who'd flown nothing bigger and newer than a DC9 than upgrade an existing F/O, coz it's cheaper.

Never mind the quality, feel the width...

[Lessnessman]

Thats what she said...

[Wizofoz]

Geragau,

I'm a DEC, and I thought Swish266 had that coming!!

[Billy Madrid]

Geragau. The post was directed at Swish only and not all DEC’s. He was out of order and it was not a threat just a little bit of education.

Mr Staynes is correct with perspective on SOME not all Dec’s.
The policy is wrong and we blame the company.
You wouldn’t be too happy if Emirates now decided that they can’t get enough DEC’s so they start all the new DEC’s on higher pay and put them at the top of the seniority list. It could happen and I would like to read your posts then, so don’t have a go at us for being upset.
Not only F/o’s are upset by the Dec thing.
If you are DEC and have come with an attitude then we blame you. If you are normal and professional most guys won’t have a problem with you. Still doesn’t make it right.
Billy

[EK_Bus Driver]

The post was directed at Swish only and not all DEC’s.
He was out of order and it was not a threat just a little bit of education



If you are normal and professional most guys won’t have a problem with you



If you are DEC and have come with an attitude then we blame you



Billy you are SPOT ON :ok: I couldn't agree more.

Well said! :D

[airbus757]

Do you guys think anyone cares if you "blame" them. Give me a break.

If I were to leave EK for a job somewhere else as a DEC, the last thing on my mind would be if a f/o would accept me. It would be more of a question if I accept them.

I know, I know, someone is going to say CRM. Go ahead, who cares.

7

[Billy Madrid]

757 No unfortunately I don’t think they do care. (The ones with the bad attitude) My opinion and that is all I can give, is that they should care.
My point to the DEC’s is, think about it.
Is it really that long since you were an F/o?
How would you feel if you were an F/o that has been delayed by you?
Would you like to fly with Mr Swish? Even if he only means half of what says. (Fun, Fun ,Fun!!)
Then with ULR flights you might well get that pleasure.

Respect people and they will respect you.

I think you answered your own question about CRM!!!!!

[airbus757]

I knew it. Wasn't long before someone implied that my CRM was not up to snuff. Any time someone has an opinion, another someone brings up that old CRM trump card. := I got news for ya, the captain always has the ace. :E

7

[Billy Madrid]

757 you implied it! CRM Who cares??

Do you enjoy flying single pilot?
Have you ever been wrong or made a mistake? It's a team sport.
Get over yourself!

I know, I know in your world CRM stands for Captains Right Mate!!!

And nothing will change your mind.
Shame

Billy

[harry the cod]

Airbus757 (split personality maybe?)

Mate, you may hold the ace but with your attitude you'll be playing solitare with it.

Harry

[mensaboy]

Billy your posts are concise, clear and insightful.

A few points that some individuals keep bringing up in favour of the DEC policy, prove that these same individuals argue by use of mistruths.

For example, most pilots who leave EK would seek a DEC position elsewhere even though they argue against the policy at EK. NO KIDDING, you simpletons!
The difference is that EK has put in writing the progression of pilots within the company. Eligible F/O's FIRST. Then accelerated command types. Then DEC's. The company HAS NEVER RUN OUT OF ELIGIBLE F/O's in my time here.

Other companies offering DEC positions have historically REQUIRED DEC's and they make NO pretense otherwise. So accepting a DEC position at Korean for example, is not at all the same as accepting a DEC position at EK.

There is one truth though, that those hired recently SHOULD have known the tendency of this company, even though the company states in writing that DEC's will be a last resort.

The truth of the matter is that the beginning of the DEC policy simply increased the chances that DEC's might be required in the future because most prospective pilots who noticed this, would decline offers as an F/O. The fact is, that the recent delays to upgrades have nothing to do with a lack of eligible F/O's, but everything to do with a lack of resources to carry out the normal upgrades.
Is that the fault of F/O's? Clearly not.

The DEC policy is simply in place to save money and resources. Nothing more. Anyone who argues otherwise does not know the facts or is trying to justify jumping the queue. (or perhaps is just an idiot)

Sadly, most DEC's are painted with the same brush as these morons. I have a suspicion the policy would still be controversial but not so hated, if not for the minority of idiots who put all DEC's in a bad light.

I still believe the DEC policy is NOT COST EFFECTIVE when taking into account all factors. I cannot prove this belief but when taking into account the resultant loss of suitable F/O applicants, the hit on morale, the loss of pilots, and the bizarre behaviour of the minority of DEC's, it surely outweighs the short term cost savings.

Long term thinking, with respect to the welfare of employees, is not exactly the strong point of this company.

[airbus757]

Snicker...

7

[desertflyer]

The seniority system or percieved entitlement to, has not helped our profession nor our families. It shackles people to companies and jobs they might otherwise leave. It has turned lives into misery, ( 20 year first officers in the USA), and pitted one professional against another. ( This forum ). Other professions bring in new people, ( law firms, accounting firms, medical firms ) train them, and then when the leaders of the firm decide they are prepared, they are made a partner. Once at this level, they are free to trade their experience and knowledge on the open market for the benefit of themselves and their families. Having been allowed that opportunity in the piloting profession has enabled many a Captain from EK to return home, or live closer to their preferred choice of domicile. Imagine the opportunity around the world if a pilot could apply for a job and not have to start as a new-hire. Unfortunately, like the lawyer who is bar certified and a partner, the doctor who is a specialist in his field and a partner, and the accountant who is a CPA and a partner, there will always be some measure or level of qualification in every profession that others will recognize and value. In our profession it happens to be the title of Captain, and what you fly and where you fly it;not unlike a lawyer who specilizes in criminal law in a big city. With the lack of new entrants into our profession over the past 5-10 years, the demand for "Captains" around the world will only increase, much to our benefit. Luckily for EK pilots, the company is growing and making "new" Captains monthly. They fly big airplanes around the world,adding to the resume, and ultimately bringing greater opportunity world-wide for them and their families.....a very enviable situation to be in.:ok:

[Alconguin Crusader]

All of you pilots are missing the point. Why should I have to wait one single day in the right seat so some pilot can come in and jumped me and others? Why can't they upgrade me? Am I undesirable? NO! I was in the US and would had to wait 10 plus years to upgrade. Why should anyone come into my airline and jump ahead of me. That smacks of discrimation and also disenfranchisment (US terms).
Companies having pilots jump the queue (Europe term) does nothing but screw the pilots in the long run. Why does a airline have to raise its pay and conditions when they can bring in some scum (you know the word I am looking for) who is happy to work for the money the airline is paying.