Merged: Qantas Engineers Set to Strike

[Pundit]

Monday, May 05, 2008

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Qantas engineers are planning a series of 48-hour strikes in their campaign for better pay.
Despite fare increases and a record profit year predicted Qantas has refused to improve on a pay offer of 3percent.
The Australian Licensed Engineers Association has begun balloting members and industrial action will probably start in two weeks.
"Our members feel an offer of 3 per cent isn't good enough when inflation is running at 4.2 per cent," said association federal president Paul Cousins.
Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon said, "At a time of record and escalating fuel prices and major disruptions in the industry, Qantas will not move from its stated 3 per cent pay increase and 1 per cent super."
Qantas is expected to announce a record $1.5 billion profit in a couple of months, up 40 per cent on the previous year.
The airline has also increased international and domestic fares by 3 per cent and 3.5 percent respectively. Those rises mean a $100 increase on a return trip to London and $8 on a one-way fare to Melbourne.
Fuel costs are soaring but the airline has bought much of this year's fuel on favourable fixed contracts. It has said it will absorb the higher costs by cutting expenditure and putting a freeze on hiring.
Mr Cousins said if engineers voted in favour of industrial action it would begin almost as soon as the ballot closed on May 18 with a series of four-hour stoppages.
"We will try to keep disruption to a minimum but it will inevitably lead to delays because there is a shortage of engineers."
Mr Cousins claimed Qantas had contracted an employment agency to hire engineers on extremely favourable short-term contracts to break the strike.
Qantas passengers should be prepared from delays to their flights due to the strikes.

[Going Boeing]

I understand that the vote results are now in - 81% in favour of industrial action. :D

[Capt Wally]

Good luck to you guys, you deserve far more, am rooting for you all, well maybe not quite thinking about you at a personal time!:E

CW:ok:

[Skystar320]

am rooting for you all

Hang on......... are you male or female?

[SeldomFixit]

Lambs to the slaughter.

[indamiddle]

capt wally... have one for me (it's a dry patch)
go engineers, plenty of the cc support you even if it does stuff up some flying. geuss the schedulers for techies and cc will make lots of o/t

[Ultralights]

Lambs to the slaughter.

exactly what i was thinking, you will get nothing above 3.0 % and a lot of lost income from strike action.....

[600ft-lb]

lets just bend over and accept a substandard offer then eh ? :ok:

[Al E. Vator]

Good for you Engineers, well done and go for it.

There is a huge global shortage of qualified engineers (as bad if not worse than that for pilots). QF have treated you appallingly for too long.

There are too many naysaying whimps around like seldomfixit and ultralights who no doubt whine like stuck pigs when they don't get their own way but don't do anything collectively to fix it. 'Lambs to the slaughter' my arse, what have you guys got to lose? Worse case scenario everybody gets sacked - then what? Somebody still has to maintain the aircraft.

There are too few engineers and many, many jobs. Basic supply and demand. You should thus be rewarded accordingly and it's about time you were (and stood up for yourselves).

Just look what the Victorian school teachers have achieved by being tough and united. Unlike us pilots who are the biggest bunch of self-serving whiners unable to work cohesively and collectively even at this historic time of flight-cancelling aircrew shortages.:rolleyes:

Good luck to you.

[hotnhigh]

What was GD's pay rises over the last few years????
Can Geoff spell hypocrite?
If not, here you go geoff:
hyp·o·crite Audio Help /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Pronunciation Key -
–noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[plasticmerc]

Well is about bloody time you guys stood up for yourselves! QF has tried to keep you down too long!
You should have walked out when you said you would earlier on in the year instead of waiting and hoping managers would give you what you want.
The lower amount you take the higher the bonus's are further up the chain.
If they are going to re hire the people they made redundant to come back and work for a VERY good rate wouldn't it be easier to just divy up that money to the engineers at work?
I hope you guys actualy stick this one out, we as engineers have been troden on enough its time to make a stand!!
Also where are they gonna find enough contractors to do the work its not like they grow on trees

[Lucky Six]

Stay focused, stay determined and above all stay united. Don't let the b###ards drive a wedge into you. Look at what the teachers and cab drivers did in Victoria recently and you know you can succeed. Good luck to the lot of you - you deserve it.

[Lord Flashhart]

Go for it Guys-

and I speak on behalf of PAF (pass a frozo) who is also behind you guys 100%

:E

[Mstr Caution]

I expect the baggage handlers will soon follow :8

[HotDog]

Yes, shut down the whole :mad: lot and history, like 89; will repeat itself. Good luck.

[WynSock]

I am not sure that 89 would actually be repeated, this time the CEO is not well regarded in many circles. No mate of the PMs, no mate of the public either.

There are also the ghosts of Allco - (a "sell/avoid" stock) - might be a bit harder to shake from the collective memory than expected.

Good luck Ginger Beers!

[TCAS Shennanigans]

Good luck with it, I wish you all well with your endeavour.

I hope as a group you see a lot more intelligence and forethought than we did at j* during the fiasco that was the EBA negotiation. Thankfully in your favour you don't have our negotiating "team".

We will all be watching and waiting :ok:

[Dagger]

Go for it guys.

Expect some heavy pressure from a long planned and carefully orchestrated propaganda campaign, even in this forum.

[spanner90]

Good luck, hang tough.

Obscene profits need to be shared with those who helped create them, not just the ivory tower trough-gobbling monkeys, (who wouldn't know work if it bit them on the :mad:.)

[Ultralights]

Al e Vator, I spent 11 yrs battling QF for better pay, all we ever got was 3%, i left in 2001, and all they have ever received since is 3%.. i left for much greener pastures, i am now earning $25K pa More than i did at QF, for doing exactly the same job. without shift work, and working 4 day weeks..

nothing has changed from 3 % and it never will. sadly i wish this wasn't the case...

[teresa green]

Good luck guys, hope you get want you want, Buuuuut do you think you could make it the following week as I am going to a wedding in London, and fly out on the 16th (perhaps not) and as I am going staff travel?????? and as I am giving away the bride.......um, could be a little difficult..but good luck anyway.:bored::bored:

[cartexchange]

teresa.......hmmmmm
its all about you!
how about you buy a full fare ticket!:mad:
I think the engineers struggle has precedent.:eek:

absolutely amazing how people are willing to support them as long as it doesn't inconvenience them!

In my case boys if you go out, I will lose pay and be totally disrupted, but its worth it for your cause I do support YOU.

[SCHAIRBUS]

The whole maintenance system is struggling to keep up, with OT running full throttle and delays ever growing, QF management are can't let the airline stop for 2 hrs let alone 2 days.
But don't expect them to back down until the last minute, this is going to be the worst medicine that GD has ever tasted and he's going to be awfully pissed off when he does.
The 3% barrier must be broken for the good of all the hard working QF workers.

[Bolty McBolt]

Qantas engineers are planning a series of 48-hour strikes in their campaign for better pay.
Despite fare increases and a record profit year predicted Qantas has refused to improve on a pay offer of 3percent.
The Australian Licensed Engineers Association has begun balloting members and industrial action will probably start in two weeks.

Pundit. If you are going to post, please post fact, rather than a media cut and paste that spreads fear and uncertainty to other QF staff and travelling public etc. It does not help

The LAME had a secret ballot through the AEC for Protected Industrial Action. The results are as below.

Members are advised that the Australian Electoral Commission have now declared the
result of the protected action ballot. The results are -
Yes 993 No 226 Invalid 1 In favour 81.39 %
Percentage of Persons on Roll who Voted 81.14 %

As I am aware there are NO plans for 48-Hour strikes.!!
There are plans for Overtime bans starting next week period. see below
On any calendar day that a member is not rostered for regular duty for any part of that
day, no overtime will be performed by that member. This Protected Industrial Action
will continue until further notice

Within the PIA document, there are provisions to include bans on higher duties and or secondment and 48- hour stop work meetings.

So for the near future there are no strikes planned but allot can change in a week especially when dealing with QF


teresa green fly out on the 16th (perhaps not) and as I am going staff travel
I think you will be fine as the bans won't start to delay INT flights for a few days.

[Torqueman]

Originally Posted by Pass-A-Frozo
You are making yourself far more expensive than the actual money you are asking.

Well why don't they pay them the money and get on with life. If it costs less to give them the money then have the fight with them, well give it too them.

Oh ! I forgot, GD is a prick ! It's not about the money anymore is it?:zzz:

[blow.n.gasket]

This was sent to me by a mate on the Qantas pilots Union regarding their EBA negotiations,


" The precedent has been set. How quickly people forget that 3% suits where it suits and as in the Jetstar pilots case it doesn't. Remember the Jetstar pilots just signed a deal backdated to the 1st Jan 08(due to expire Sept 08) that gave the "token" 3% but also 6% retention bonus and 6% at risk performance bonus(at the board's discretion) based on Jetstar's financial performance. This is the bottom line we should accept."



I've also been told that it is rumoured that the Qantas execs gave themselves a $100 Million bonus at the beginning of the year in order to get it in before all the poor economic figures started coming out.
That might be worth confirming as well !

[Chronic Snoozer]

http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=481229

Qantas passengers to face delays

9th May 2008, 19:30 WST

Qantas passengers can expect delays this month following the breakdown of wage negotiations with maintenance engineers who have promised to take industrial action.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline will not increase its offer after the engineers’ union informed him of its planned industrial action.

He said the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association will commence overtime bans from May 15 and will hold four-hour, stop-work meetings on May 16 and May 23.

The ALAEA is pushing for a new enterprise agreement that includes pay rises of five per cent a year rather than the airline’s standard pay offer.

“Qantas has made it very clear,” Mr Dixon said in a statement.

“We will not break our wages policy of three per cent annual pay increases and a one per cent additional superannuation contribution, as we reinvest our profits in aircraft purchase to continue to grow Qantas in difficult times.”

He said the union is in the wrong and passengers may suffer for it.

“This action is unjustified and we plan to ensure all customers reach their destination on these days,” Mr Dixon said.

“We will be expecting some delays during the two Friday afternoons.”

AAP


Can I suggest you split the difference - 4% pay rise - pretty close to inflation?

QANTAS are into the media spin already with quotes like

'He said the union is in the wrong and passengers may suffer for it.

“This action is unjustified and we plan to ensure all customers reach their destination on these days,”

All quite laughable considering what transpired with the Allco bid, what management stood to make out of it and the fact the company is sitting on about $2b cash. Plus then theres the fuel surcharge, ticket price increases, late penalties for the 787 and mooted $1.5b profit.....

What was the increase in profit over the previous half year? 101%.....

[Capt Wally]

................................“We will not break our wages policy of three per cent annual pay increases and a one per cent additional superannuation contribution, as we reinvest our profits in aircraft purchase AND BOARD EXECS WAGES/BONUSES to continue to grow Qantas in difficult times.”

That's more like the truth, this guy couldn't lie straight in bed !:yuk:



CW

[The Mr Fixit]

PAF of the 2,000 odd posts you've made on this site have any of them actually not been management or company supportive ?
You sound like a first rate FUD spreader and company puppet, that is if your name is not Geoff ? :eek:
How about you do as one of your earlier posts stated and just stay out of Ginger beer discussions as you have nothing constructive to contribute

[Long Bay Mauler]

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the airline will not increase its offer after the engineers’ union informed him of its planned industrial action.

He said the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association will commence overtime bans from May 15 and will hold four-hour, stop-work meetings on May 16 and May 23.


How does Geoff Dixon know when we are having stop work meetings?:confused:

As far as I was aware the ALAEA hadnt set any days in concrete,as we are just starting with O/T bans.And that is on our days off!!!!!!!

Does this mean the company is planning to stand people down on those 2 particular days to cause the LAMEs to walk off the job? Sounds like they are inciting industrial action.The "workforce-in-waiting" must have finished all their training early.

Hopefully the media are aware that it is Qantas escalating the industrial action on these two Fridays and not the ALAEA.:=

[ejectx3]

re: Cartexchange's comment...

For god's sake woman get a sense of humour. The mind boggles....

[aveng]

Let them get me the chop Frozo (read Bozo) I'll take my licence were it pays more! With respect to 89 - I was there as well, nobody wanted the pilots to resign - just bad advice from their union. We intend to work inside the system and use the policy manual (red tape dispenser) to its full effect.:ok:

[teresa green]

Cartexchange, fair crack of the whip fella, I wished you well, and as the father of a LAME I agree with what you are doing. As for me going staff travel, after neally fifty years of service in TAA and QF you could hardly deny me a 10% seat. I am sure you use staff travel when you can. I am simply saying its bad luck for me if you pull the plug next thurs. Ok?

[Snollygoster]

Mendaero, be careful - you guys may get a lot more than you've bargained for:sad:
From experience I can say that the Association will drop you like a hot rock if things go pear-shaped mate.
Lots of guys out there who will be happy to take your job.:=

[Big Unit]

Lots of guys out there who will be happy to take your job.


Dont you people on the 3rd floor have anything better to do than troll on these websites. Get back to work. If you dont have any work, then come downstairs and help us out. We are the people working on those big white things with the red tails.

[Bumpfoh]

You're a dill.

In my opinion if you wish to take industrial action then the company should be entitled to terminate your employment if they desire.

It;s called Protected Industrial Action.


If you care to read the thread in D&G G.A & Q's you would understand that pound for pound the QF engineers are worse off than many other airline employed engineers in AUS eg VB & JQ and the 3% p.a offer sees many at QF going even further backwards against CPI, i.e less disposable income after paying the mortgage feeding and educating the kids etc not to mention the ever increasing demands from the employer for productivity increases, technology upgrades and the like.

Lets see them give us all the arse, I know you won't have the ability to fill the void!:=

[FFRATS]

QF almost sold to to Allco/APA et al, not buying a new (proven) LH Fleet years earlier, payments to Exces at record amounts each year and Geoff Dick says greater than 3% pay rise to the Engineers is a threat to QF's future...:confused:

[Bolty McBolt]

Chronic Snoozer
Can I suggest you split the difference - 4% pay rise - pretty close to inflation?



Out come the arm chair quarter backs. Gee I am sure the ALAEA will be grateful for your insightful advice. Mate you should run for office at our next association election... :ok:

Mendaero, be careful - you guys may get a lot more than you've bargained for
From experience I can say that the Association will drop you like a hot rock if things go pear-shaped mate.
Lots of guys out there who will be happy to take your job.


Snollygoster. Great first post, thank you too for your input.

The PIA in progress now has been brewing for a long long time and has more to do with the current ACS management style than an EBA.

If you look at both PIA votes you will see all but the most reserved and fans of PAFs writings voted for the action. Obviously something is very wrong for such a high vote turn out yet alone the majority vote.
I for one considered the ramifications of our actions and I am more than willing to stand by my convictions. Come hell or high water lets see where the cards fall. :ok:
Murray caused this lets see him wriggle out of it.

PAF. Love you work, predictable but good reading all the same but I fail to see the correlation to the 89 dispute. And I do enjoy reading about Jim and Debbie’s travels…

[Chronic Snoozer]

Out come the arm chair quarter backs. Gee I am sure the ALAEA will be grateful for your insightful advice. Mate you should run for office at our next association election...

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, sir. The numbers just happened to pop out at me as I read the public news item so it was really more a tongue in cheek observation. :oh: I work for a recalcitrant employer too and don't envy the task the gingerbeers face, not a bit. Good luck.

[Reeltime]

Good onya engineers, just stick it to Dixon. This guys been itching to bust Qantas unions from day one, whilst lining his pockets with the money earned by those same staff ie union members..his greed and that of QF management is breathtaking!

[Sunfish]

Pass a Frozo can be safely ignored as he doesn't know what he is talking about, as this post demonstrates:

So here is a question. If 20 people will lose their job because of the QF Engineers industrial action is it worth it?



If QF thought there were 20 people surplus to requirements they would be gone in a flash, industrial action or no industrial action.

Similarly with outsourcing. These decisions are not made overnight as a result of a paltry 5% wage claim....Except the Board and Management of QF are stupid enough to do so, in which case what's the point of working for idiots?

[Short_Circuit]

I think it is timely to remind everyone reading here, the QANTAS LAME's

are taking PROTECTED INDUSTRIAL ACTION consisting of banning the

unreasonable overtime we are expected to do on our rostered days off.

This is not a strike but it has shaken QF management to the core as they

have made redundant 30% of their engineers and now do not have enough

to do the daily planned maintenance let alone any breakdowns.

They rely on daily overtime to cover the short fall of manpower.

They have destroyed wages & conditions to such an extent more engineers

are walking out the door to the "Low Cost Carriers" that are paying

more that $30,000.00 pa than more than QF.

If there is disruption to the schedule it is the direct fault of management.

If they stand people down and escalate the PIA we have the option to hold meetings

away from work which may take 2 days to inform all the engineers around

the world of the proceeding and to take votes etc.

No mention of strikes from the union, only from QANTAS Managers and their lying media campaign.

[Long Bay Mauler]

And don't forget the fifth columnists from places like ADL.........:=

[Short_Circuit]

And they won't train their own staff on differences!!!!! :ugh:

[K9P]

Yeah Short know of one SLAME waiting 3 years to get differences training for D4, not that we see them much now.

[wanty]

lol, should make for an interesting night on Wednesday and an even more interesting Thursday morning.:ok:

[K9P]

Yes, what it says to most of us that look at this situation (except the media, as they have their clients) is that it is bad management just trying to cover their ar$es.

[Mr Qantas]

Bad union management who cant hold up there end of an agreement. Greedy lames who conveniently omit that they get a free level every 4 years along with steddy 3% wages rises except when they took a wage freeze but got some points instead. Your new leaders have caused all this and if it wasnt for them h245 would still be going strong but alas you only get what you elect. :ugh:

[K9P]

Mr Qantas
The company could not survive with 10 Lames per crew and only doing one task card per day per Lame.
We have to deal with reality here, and changing situations. So now Qantas Maintenence has become much more efficient we should be rewarded as is the Board of Management.

[blueloo]

versus the incompetents who run engineering, and we now cant maintain our fleet(s).

absolute genius.

[Clipped]

To the boys and girls flying in our planes - do not ignore any defect you come across. Write them all down, fill up those logbooks and make sure there is a spare handy.

We love nothing more than maintaining planes in tip top condition.

Thanks for the support many of you have shown. Unfortunately we're all in the same 'boat'.

[Acute Instinct]

The truth hurts! And how! The O/T bans are just an appetiser. Let us see the shameful few. Who cares how many. Bring on the stoppages. Need the rest anyway due to fatigue. This ship is on the brink now! So many truly do not care what happens any more. No fear at all. Nothing left. This is what happens when you disrespect a workforce that truly loved and took deep pride in their work. So many beyond reason. Is this management. This is a tragedy. To the bottom of my heart, I hope it hurts and there are job losses! Starting at the top!

[Razor]

I've even got a company issued black pen with lots of ink. Love filling out the tech log.
Good luck folks - there are many within that are behind you.

[speedbirdhouse]

Mine is a blue pen and I bought it myself.

I too love filling in log books.

Mine is the cabin condition log.:ok:

Good luck fellas.

How wonderful would it be to see dickson skulking out of the joint with a bloody nose.

[Short_Circuit]

So many truly do not care what happens any more.

Yes we do care any more, but only about aircraft safety not about managers bonuses.

We care about safety above profit not like the few managers.

They only see that the share price has tumbled and their FREE share options

that they will have to pay $5.00 $6.00 plus per share are useless if they exercise them.

The only way to make money on them and to make short term profits to boost share price

and dump the free millions of shares and then move on G Dick, M Jacko, P Greed etc

They have planned this for years.

This is more than inside trading, it is much much worse,

It is a pity that ASIC do not see this.

They set up the APA sale issue just to inflate the share price and exercise

millions of share options at premium and sell off to make MILLIONS of DOLLARS at our expense......

Just another criminal exercise in ripping off the Company and hoodwinking ASIC for personal gain...............

The long term future of QANTAS has nothing to do with their plans only

long term plans of GD MJ PG etc

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just for those who may be interested. There was almost as much interest both direct and indirect to the ALAEA office late in the week regarding our ballot result from tech and cabin crew. Can I please just ask a couple of favours from both groups.

No snags on napkins or last minute annunciator verbal requests. Everything needs to be documented, it will make it just that little bit harder for their underlicenced "alternative workforce".

cheers

[wanty]

And don't forget to write defects in the techlogs, as difficult to understand as humanly possible,and then shoot through and get home to the family as quickly as possible. I'd say a minimum of 3-4 snags every turnaround should do nicely.

[sikwog]

I am dedicated to providing the BEST quality maintenance and love my job. We all fly on these from time to time and we need to keep that standard reguardless of the pressures put on us. I WAS once a "speedy lets fix it to minimalise delays but that allitude died along with lost of my fellow work mates. The BOOKS are there for a reason so put up that umbrella and cover your backsides, our licenses are paying for our lifestyles that are going down hill. Stick togeather and ignore +dont reply to the "company related oxygen thiefs" that post properganda, it will only cause this forum to be locked out and we need all the feedback from ALL our mates world wide to remain united. Even though I would never resign, being locked out does not worry me and there is life outside QF. If you lok in the PPM there is provision for taking extended breaks during excessive workloads, and PLEASE would ALL you guys closely read the ETOPS manual and once interpreted pass it on to all, then wait and see how many e/r flights become non e/r. This is a big one and has caused IOC and maint. watch serious greef. Study the tee5rc on e/r flight berfore arrival. VXK STBY rudder actuator has been leaking for ages and I believe it should be repaired so watch out for it. I will keep researching the QF system and post any relevent info as it arises. United we stand. On a finishing note, I feel sorry for those who require O/T to keep their heads above water and have no suggestions to this problem appart from taking a leaf out of GD's spending cutbacks. I hope I have not crossed any lines as PIA support is required by all for some sort of outcome. As stated before DONT answer the corporate/manager blogs as it only incites nasty comments due to highly emotional poeple and we need to keep this thread to continue as all parts of the QF family seem to be attracted to this thread and it is a valuable tool for all departments and will affect everybody, cheers SIKWOG. PS spell check didnt work so sorry.

[sikwog]

Futher more to my last post, and I refer to the alaea exec's ast post, operating crew of an A/C including F/A and obligated to enter all defect in the cabin condition log in accordance with the policy manual, there will be die hard supporters or the protected action taken that will possibly report your actions for not following these proceedures set buy the company forcing those into line to carry out them to carry out what is required by qantas law, so if you dont want to be deciplined make your self familiar with the new requirements as I have personally seen that not all CSM'S are up to date on what they are obligated to do and have not been classed in these matters. When you fill out the cabin log, be sure you are aware in the PPM procedure as it is now a legal doccument, not like the old CCL whick was a scratch pad with no accountability. Pilots, verbals are a thing af the past, we want everything reported, no exceptions. If you guys want to have a safe and reliable airplane you need to report all abnormal operations and have them investigated by experienced LAME's and if you believe this has not happened it is your life at risk and all on board. To all that read this remember engineers stay on the groung and are safe from catastrophy so employing alternative engineers you will NOT recieve any guaranties and the MEDA system will not apply during this period for obvious reasons. The pilots need us as thay want to go home and hug their kids as well as the ALAEA members. Strike Breakers will make us into Garuda airlines.

[cjam]

Guys/gals, you have a lot of support that you probably don't even know about. I'm not a QF engineer and I stand to be inconvenienced a bit in the near future but like many I am just sick and tired of management types screwing down T&C's to the extent that it compromises safety. As an Australian I have always been proud of the standards of our aviation industry, Ausi blue collars have historically taken pride in their work (as they do now) and more important than earning a million bucks was the fact that they knew they were good, they knew their work was top knotch. The ability to achieve this has been slowly but surely ripped away from us over the last two decades by management types who only care about making a million bucks and don't see the value in putting in the extra hard yards to maintain that high standard. They don't understand your professional pride because they've never experienced it themselves. I admit that the industry has needed to change over the years, needed to evolve and keep up with world wide trends, but where do you draw the line? When do you say " No. In Australia we're willing to foot that bill in order to maintain our standards, our safety record, and our reputation" You guys are drawing that line now. Good on ya.
I think you say too much on this thread, decide on what you are personally willing to do and then go quietly about doing it. We will be backing you. Talk in your crew rooms etc but this is a public forum and Jo public doesn't understand how your ability to do your job has been eroded and will take many of these comments as militant unionist banter.
My 2 cents.

[Capt Kremin]

Good luck guys. Some years ago I received a pen from QF management as a generous Christmas bonus.

Time to see if it works I guess!

[mini2]

There's words going around in KL at present that someone is trying to poach a few more LAME as standby for the strike. Have anyone been approached by them? Obviously those were made redundant ~2 year ago.

[The cougar]

Captain, a lot of these guys will have transit authorities only, so these guys can sign up to a check 2 with limited ability for signing defects. These guys cannot delegate tasks to others and then certify for them, they must carry out the job themselves. So if you do see one signature only for a whole check and it is a ring in ask questions. Qantas has lost their transit/maintenance authoritie approvals before, it would kill them now.

[Spanner Turner]

Warning - Technical Content for Pilot's / Flight Engineers.




As a matter of interest, what exactly will this interim scab workforce NOT be able to do? Will they only have 'Transit Authority', or will they be able to do all that you can presently do



For example, one of the Managementous elitous (cryptic clue) is in possession of only a Rolls Royce D4 Mechanical licence. (For those unfamiliar, this is the engine fitted to the 'Classic 747-300'). Having an engine licence allows the individual to sign for all maintenance on that engine in the mechanical category.

When it comes to certifying for other tasks on that engine or to the airframe that that particular engine is fitted to, under the power invested in him by Civil Aviation Order 100.90, his priveleges are extended into other trades in the following manner:-

( Jump down to summary now if what's below is too much )

3.3 Engine Category Privileges: With respect to maintenance of aircraft, certification of maintenance within the engine category may be made by persons holding the appropriate engine rating(s) with the following limitations:
(f) maintenance of electrical and instrument components which form part of an engine system limited to:
(i) on all aircraft:
(A) external mechanical adjustment to facilitate correct operation of engine systems; and
(B) replacement of components connected by electrical plugs, terminal connections (other than soldered connections) or pipelines — but excluding those functional tests and adjustments requiring the use of external specialised test equipment; and
(ii) on aircraft approved for I.F.R. operations;
(A) daily or manufacturers’ equivalent inspection; and
(B) condition and security of attachment of wiring, plumbing and components; and



3.4 Engine Category — Electrical Category Privileges: Certification of maintenance within the electrical category may be made by persons holding the appropriate engine rating(s) as follows:
(b) electrical systems classified as Electrical Group I in aircraft approved for I.F.R. operations or electrical systems classified as Electrical Group 2 or Group 20 limited to:
(i) daily or manufacturers’ equivalent inspection; and
(ii) condition and security of attachment of wiring and components.

3.5 Engine Category — Instrument Category Privileges: Certification of maintenance within the instrument category may be made by persons holding the appropriate engine rating(s), as follows:
(a) on all aircraft — compensation of direct reading magnetic compasses;
(d) on aircraft classified as Instrument Group 20, limited to:
(i) daily or manufacturers’ equivalent inspection; and
(ii) condition and security of attachment of wiring, plumbing and components.

3.6 Engine Category — Radio Category Privileges: Certification of maintenance, excluding operational checks, within the radio category may be made by persons holding the appropriate engine rating(s), as follows:
(b) on aircraft approved for I.F.R. operations, limited to:
(i) daily or manufacturers’ equivalent inspection; and
(ii) condition and security of attachment of wiring and components.


3.7 Engine Category — Airframe Category Privileges: Certification of maintenance within the airframe category may be made by persons holding the appropriate engine rating(s), as follows:
(a) daily inspection or manufacturers’ equivalent inspection;
(b) inspection, removal and fitting of engine mountings, cowlings and firewalls;
(c) independent inspections.


Summary,
Basically, this individual is limited to signing for what he's licenced on and for carrying out a 'daily inspection'. Management would have dreams of utilising him either in PER, MEL or SYD domestic as he can legally carry out transits.............providing there are no 'defects' with the aircraft.

Would be a shame if during each sector, the log consisted of ;

-1 off warning light globe blown. (mmmm, electrical Lame required)

-1st obs/2nd obs headset 'crackly' (mmmm, radio Lame required)

-Capt's/ F/O's seatbelt frayed (mmmm, airframe Lame required)

There are many more examples of other management goons and the (alternative workforce) who have partial / licences and/or transit authorities.

"They can't fix defects or apply MEL's"

Not asking for any 'phantom' defects, just treat every flight like a 'Check Ride'. If you were on a check ride and didn't correctly record defects with your ship in the log, i'm sure you'd be in hot water quick smart.

[Short_Circuit]

Annoying items requiring LAME & MEL

Cabin lights

Annunciator lts, especially IGD PRESS

Oxygen pressure

Background lights

RADAR returns & tilt problems

HF VHF glitches

Chillers, cart lifts, seat belts, seat recline, ash trays

Emergency Egress Lights (EEL) lifting

no smoking fasten seat belt signs (amasing how many blow every flight)

air noisy doors

fuzzy screens

printer paper

.

.


.


.


need I say more?

[Capt Wally]

Sock it to 'em guys/gals, love the strength that is being shown here lets hope it filters thru to where it counts, the actual grounding of planes due maint issues.
I think pilots & spanner manipulators are one & the same, it takes BOTH to keep a plane aloft. Pilots & engineeres alike have kept planes flying because of the passion we share but when the greed filters down to where it hurts the 'drone' workers then time to do a little "shop floor management"
They (Management) can't hurt us, where bleedin' but they can't hurt us!:ok:

CW

[REALITY]

bite me :D :D :D

[Transition Layer]

Good work guys, all the best. You only have to fly out of LHR on a regular basis to see the difference between great engineers (you guys) and very average ones (though I admit some are OK).

Will be doing my best to find every snag I can!

Cheers

[Flugbegleiter]

Well I hope this goes somewhere this time. A couple of months ago, when you were going to take protected industrial action, I was getting all fired up and started logging stuff and was trying to encourage other cabin crew to do the same to support you, then all of a sudden it appeared as though you guys had rolled over and given in to the company for less than what you were asking. I was disappointed. You are the one group who really has a chance to take this greedy company on and possibly win.

I noticed last time, when I spoke to some (many?) Australian LAMEs doing transit checks, that they didn't seem that interested in us logging cabin defects at all; some even found it annoying! I really hope you guys are going to be united and all on the same page this time. Maybe your union should contact some other unions for some support - all legal, above-board stuff, of course. I am quite aware of what we legally can and can't do.

Good luck guys. I really hope you have some success this time. I am sick of seeing this company go to ****, especially Engineering - the heart and soul of this once great company.

[wanty]

GEE Is that a nic I see in the leading edge of that pitot probe ???

I think that might disturb the natural airflow over the probe,I'd better report that to a lame whose decisions are governed by stringent criteria laid down in the manufacturers maintenance manual.:ok:

[hadagutfull]

and for you pilots.....
dont be coerced into doing any engine runs after maintenance to save time or for convienience sake.
Drag the LAME into the flight deck and throw him into the left seat....

And if you see anything that resembles a hydraulic leak, of any size, put in the book first then tell the engineer (else you will be talked out of it). Looking at the state of the fleet, you wont have to look very hard.

my 2 bob worth....

cheers

[ejectx3]

But hang on.......

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23687817-23349,00.html?from=public_rss

:ok:

[employes perspective]

MR QANTAS,what the f@ck would you know about H245,troll

[jakethemuss]

Dixon's plea will fall on deaf ears.

The management of Qantas disengaged itself from the employees a long time ago through their disgraceful grab for cash when the rest of the employees took a pay freeze because "times were tough".

What Dixon and his cronies do not understand is the employees of Qantas are cheering the LAME's on and will be doing everything in their power to assist their cause.

Why?

The employees so dislike and disregard the management of Qantas that they now work to look after themselves as a group and the liars at the top can basically go and get stuffed.

I just picked up a new pen. I will be checking the qualifications of every LAME that tries to sign out an aircraft as required under CAR 233.

Take Five!

[Ngineer]

Mr Flugbegleiter, great post and thanks for your support. I can understand your frustrations at those that do not welcome tech snags in the books. We have to deal with these individuals as well. As per the company procedures manual, it is the responsibility of Flt crew and Lame to snag any defect observed. Both inside of industrial action, and out of. The majority of us welcome any defect written, as it helps to maintain our fleet to the safety standards that our crew and passengers deserve. So do not baulk at writing any defect observed, or any suspision that something seems amiss with an aircraft system.

[N.E.R.D.]

All Flight Crew and Cabin Crew Be aware that for all work done, defects fixed/ written off it is a QANTAS and CASA requirement that approved data is used and referenced.

eg1. "Replaced seat cushion in accordance with Component Maintenance Manual 25-25-00".

A quick "Replaced as requested". IS NOT as per company and CASA Regs.

eg2. Wear on #1 main wheel within Boeing Maintenace Manual Limits 32-45-00. Tyre pressure checked at 210 psi using tyre pressure Gauge TP0100001132.

All calibrated equipment used must be referenced and any pressures, torques, values, temperatures,etc should be provided.

Strike breakers MAY try the quick write off.IT IS NOT as per company and CASA Regs.

Also release, part numbers, serial numbers must be provided, for traceability.

Strike breakers MAY no do this.

Thank for the support! :ok:

[Capt Wally]

What are M/R's & tech logs for anyway? Other than the obvious for the safe recording/reporting & rectification of found damage/problems that must be fixed. Why do we need to do this more & more from now on when we should have been doing this anyway for safety? why? Because you (as in all pilots) 'where' too damn nice that's why, Not any more, like I said before, time for some 'shop floor management' before the goons at the top bleed you all dry!:ok:

Again good luck to those with the 'tools' to do the job


CW

[Konehead]

Hi guys

Thanks for the support. Never mind the grumpy old engineers. Some LAMEs are ALWAYS acting like work is an inconvenience to their coffee break.

The majority of LAMEs will thank you in their heart of hearts for keeping them in a job and helping us all to stick it to those who deserve it.

Please, in all the heated passion and noise of this dispute, remember the comfort and safety of the travelling public. Despite what the Big Swinging GDick says, it's the bums on seats that keep us all in a job. Not the shareholders! We only have jobs because the customers keep flying with us. So please ensure that the cabin is safe and comfortable for them.

Please report:
Call lights, no smoking/fasten seat belt/return to seat lights - even if there is still one bulb operating in the light
Ovens slow to heat
Coffee brewers (any number of potential defects)
PA defects, real or perceived (may take two LAMEs to work that one out!)
Video defects, especially during pushback & power transfer, interrupting your safety briefing (B734's especially - it's been happening alot!)
"Missing" safety and/or demo equipment
Soiled seat cushion covers and especially seat backs (they take alot longer than cushion covers to replace) - even if it's only water. It may be a body fluid or toxic chemical - who's to know?
Dodgy magazine rack springs (could inhibit a pax safe egress during an emergency)
Rattles in the ceiling
Air noise around the doors
Liquid dripping from aircon ducts ("maybe it's just condensation, but I'm not a LAME so I'll report it anyway")
Lifting carpet (trip hazards)
Missing seat trim (might cut someone)
Missing or loose floor track trim
"Is that crazing or cracking on that pax window? Is it the inner, middle or outer pane?"
In the interest of supplying the service they have paid for and have a right to expect from a supposedly premium airline, especially our F/C & B/C customers, PLEASE ask your passengers to report any real or perceived safety, IFE or passenger comfort defects!!!

Thank you and Good luck!

[speedbirdhouse]

I can hear the jungle drums beating now.........

[SIUYA]

Personally, as SLF, I totally applaud and support the efforts of ALL QF maintenance, CC, and technical crew to ensure that you provide us with serviceable and safe aircraft to travel in! :D

[lambsie]

Whilst I wholeheartedly support your claims, and as a QF employee I am well aware of how poorly we are treated by management, may I please ask that you be reasonable about the delays. Having just experienced a two hour go slow late at night, it was then up to me to go fast, stay alert at 2am and conduct a VOR approach, to then get a 10 hour rest before charging off again. There were better targets that night. My 'problem' was very very minor, yet paperwork bogged us down far in excess of what was reasonable.

Happy to help, but I've got a job to do too.

[Short_Circuit]

There are no targets.

We are doing our job professionally & safely

just NO overtime, thats all.

The amount of O/T required to be done to keep sched is dangerous.

[NAS1801]

Guten Tag Flugbegleiter! Good to see that you and your colleagues are eager to do their part in helping the cause! We must door beer things when I am in your part of the country next!

[4Greens]

Am about to travel on another overseas airline that has QF contract line maintenance for turn round etc. Will the expected action carry across? In other words will there be delays?

[Capt Kremin]

Jakethemuss has it correct. What I believe we will see in the next few weeks (Geoff, are you listening?) will be a quiet grass roots revolt from a long suffering staff who are absolutely itching to show what passes for management in this company how they really feel about the bullying, harassing, lying, grasping culture that has developed under the stewardship of this CEO.

Geoff, you have no idea what you are up against.

[speedbirdhouse]

Great post Capt Kremin.

So very true.............

[employes perspective]

kinda makes me wish i was still there now,just so i could stick it to these d!ickhead managers,i will be watching from the sidelines with a big smile on my face

[Turbo 5B]

E.P why not come with me and do another walk around the Sydney Domestic Terminal during peak hour.
"Pay peanuts.........get Monkeys"
(I think I can still borrow the gorilla mask)

We helped you Geoff when times were tough.............Now it's 1.5 Billion and it's TIME TO PAY

[indamiddle]

those bloody drains keep blocking up!... again and again

[splashman]

I am an ex QF LAME, who left QF for other reasons than the EBA, I have not voted nor have I had any input, I am living a happy life outside of QF, QF is not my employer.

To all the people who work for QF and think this action is unreasonable, will you, at your next EBA accept 3%, if the ALAEA is successful in its claims.

Time is great, I can just hear it now,

"How can we accept 3% when the Engineers won 5%"

Pls give a bit of credit for the guys and girls who, after many years of dominance by a powerful company, have stood up for themselves.

81% of Engineers have voted to take on QF, no other group of employees have, the flow on effect will be for all. If the Engineers win, is not a precidence set for every other group of employees within QF when it comes to future EBA's.?

Stick with them, play the game, if they lose nobody wins

l

[employes perspective]

turbo 5b,i don't think the mask would fit you,and this time we can watch from the sidelines as GD,DC ans MH get a right royal screwing.
P.S and i ain't no monkey anymore i've turned into a gorilla.:):):)

[Pool Noodle]

A SCENIC DRIVE THRU QF MAINT HANGARS EARLY THIS MORNING SHOULD HAVE QF MANAGEMENT WORRIED AND THE PARTY HASNT EVEN STARTED:ok:

[Big Unit]

A SCENIC DRIVE THRU QF MAINT HANGARS EARLY THIS MORNING SHOULD HAVE QF MANAGEMENT WORRIED AND THE PARTY HASNT EVEN STARTED:ok:


Mate, I have worked at QF for many years and the base workload for today is the biggest I have ever seen. Special mention must go to the sparkies and cabbo's.
Also noticed good old geoff's pay went from approx 5.2million to 6.7million last year. Now my math isnt perfect but does that not equal a 30% increase.
GD - If you are reading this, you have no idea what you have just done.

[Pool Noodle]

Thanks Big Unit For Gd's Pay Profile,its Been Mentioned In The Press That Gd "hasnt Met A Head He Hasnt Liked To Kick",well In All The Years Ive Worked At Qf I Havent Seen Him On The Shop Floor,and Im Sure If He Seen My Ugly Melon He Would Be In "boots And All"

[Big Unit]

GD - If you are reading this, you have no idea what you have just done.

[Anulus Filler]

Big Unit = Big Writing

[teresa green]

Cjam with all respect I would hardly call Aircraft Engineers "blue collar workers" They are highly trained Engineers, and I have nothing but respect for them. (As do most pilots). In my early flying I was seconded out to various jobs including Royal Flying Doctor Service, Airial Surveys, Air Ambulance etc, and this happened quite often for pilots in TAA depending on what happened in the economy at the time. Often based in some godforsaken outpost with the Engineer for company I learnt a lot from them, in fact I would now probably be extremely dead, if it had not been for one of them in particular. (I won't bore you with the details) anyway good luck fellas, you deserve everything you get. And I hope its a motza.

[CaptainSouth]

Go men !!!! Good luck and I will be interested to see how it pans out tomorrow as I negotiate the domestic network. As one pissed off pilot, you have my total support.

[stubby jumbo]

Apparently there were a number of long term employees with Flight Training punted this morning-VR/CR.?

The "usual" reason given, ie "your position has now been reviewed and now no longer required in this business......going forward"

OH PLEEEEZE !

Where do these goons from HR get off with this line. We're talking once loyal staff who have have an accumulated 87 years of service !!

There's a great line in the movie -Network when Peter Finch yells from the window:

I'M AS MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE !!!

Good Luck guys:ok:

[ozbiggles]

I can only imagine at a board meeting if the board gave itself only 3%.
You go boys and girls, stand tall. You can't do any worse then what the Flight attendants did/got for people who follow on behind them.
I see some real courage here.

[The_King]

OK Then Everyone…. Time to hit the change rooms and start warming up.
It’s nearly “Game Time”.

Remember everyone, play hard… and if that doesn’t work, fight dirty.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Guys and gals 40 mins to go before it starrts. Good luck and thnx for support so far. I hear there was some posts earlier that were not too savory but remember that we are LAMEs and the job we do is professional and just maintain that and all will be ok. cheers Steve............

[The cougar]

Heard that the board had an emergency meeting today, looks like they underestimated the LAME's ability. Looking forward to seeing a lot of pathetic management heads roll. MH has had a golden run till now, looks like his high cost LAME's has cost him dearly!

[flystraight]

If true,maybe they opened pandora's box.

[flystraight]

Safety.
Procedures.
All other.
Management.

Anything else is a compromise.

[The_King]

Did anyone see on the news a couple of months ago (during the air traffic controllers dispute) that 1 day all the controllers rang in sick on the same day. Wow. What ever happened with that?

[Sunfish]

From The Age today:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/qantas-hires-strike-breakers/2008/05/14/1210764953588.html



Qantas' strike breakers


Ben Schneiders
May 15, 2008


QANTAS has devised a secret plan to smash the influence of a powerful airline union, with strike breakers being offered $100,000 for just six months work as aircraft engineers.

The radical plan has come to light on the eve of industrial action by engineers that threatens to bring major disruption to domestic flight schedules from tomorrow.

In a dramatic escalation of an already bitter dispute, Qantas has been quietly recruiting non-union engineers in Asia and the Pacific to act as strike breakers, The Age has learned................................

............................................................ ..................................

The contracts for six months or less offer about $2300 a week to work as aircraft engineers, plus a $40,000 "completion bonus". If paid in full, the strike breakers would receive about $100,000 for six months — double the average rate for an engineer, according to the union.

Union national secretary Steve Purvinas said he expected his members to be "locked out" as a result — as dock workers were in the waterfront dispute. He said Qantas planned to use an alternative workforce of about 100 people to replace the existing 1500 engineers.

Engineers have significant industrial power, as planes are not allowed to fly without their authorisation.

Mr Purvinas said Qantas had been offering contracts to former staff, including many based in Malaysia, since around Christmas. Some had been approached up to a dozen times, he said.

Qantas chief Geoff Dixon last night refused to confirm or deny whether the airline was training strike breakers. "They are our business, our contingencies, they're not for media or anyone else (to know)," he said.

............................................................ ....

The dispute centres on the union's demand for a 5%-a-year pay rise. Mr Dixon has said he will not budge from 3%.


Mr Purvinas said the 3% offer failed to match the rising cost of living. The airline says the union reneged on an earlier agreement for pay rises of that amount.

Mr Dixon said this week the airline would not negotiate on its wage policy, which limits pay rises to 3% a year. But Mr Purvinas said the contracts showed that Qantas wanted to break engineers' "culture of commitment to safety", a claim rejected by Mr Dixon.

Qantas has a history of tension with unions. In a recent interview with The Australian Financial Review, Mr Dixon nominated IR as a key issue in his final year running the airline. "The management of this company has contributed far more to its wellbeing and success than any bloody union has," he said.

"It is very important for unions to understand that it's more than just representing your people for a couple of per cent — it is really the long-term future of the industry."
............................................................ ...............................

With MATHEW MURPHY, ANDREW WEST, SCOTT ROCHFORT


There seems to be a sort of inversion going on here that is rather strange and unsettling about the statement highlighted in bold, attributed to Mr. Dixon, from a management perspective.

The contribution of the Board and Senior Management of Qantas to the wellbeing of the company is the making of sound long term decisions, usually with a time horizon of Five to Ten years or longer when it comes, for example, to the choice of aircraft.


The contribution of Pilots, Cabin Crew and Engineers to the company is the making of sound day to day decisions as they deliver the companys' product to its customers.

Yet here we have Mr. Dixon apparently imploring the Engineers to take a long term view of the future of the industry.

I also note that the management of Qantas, including apparently Mr. Dixon, appears to be remunerated with annual bonuses.

This, to me, appears to be a simple inversion of time horizons, with management focussing on short term annual bonus driven decision making, while at the same time telling its workforce to take the long view and not worry too much about their terms and conditions today. This is just plain dumb.

Alternatively, if the Engineers did actually take "a long term view" of the industry's future, noting that their pay and conditions have been going backwards since the pay freezes of 9/11, and the continual carping from the Board about Qantas being a "legacy airline" and other doom laden pronouncements, they would have walked. if not run, away from the industry by now.

Perhaps the Qantas Board and management should focus on the big long term picture and encourage suitably remunerated employees to focus on day to day matters, rather than bleakly worrying about how their wages are being outstripped by inflation every year.

[A. Le Rhone]

Qantas has a history of tension with unions. In a recent interview with The Australian Financial Review, Mr Dixon nominated IR as a key issue in his final year running the airline. "The management of this company has contributed far more to its wellbeing and success than any bloody union has," he said.
"It is very important for unions to understand that it's more than just representing your people for a couple of per cent — it is really the long-term future of the industry."
----------
Except of course when it comes to Dixon's own salary which has increased by > 50%. Hypocracy at its worst.

Good for you guys. Personally I think you're worth well more than 5% (and I'm not a LAME).

[Capt Wally]

........we have a golden opertunity here with the engineers, they can with some personal cost show to the likes of GD that a Co is made up of PEOPLE, not a 'bottom line'!:bored: Like a tumor, he can be physically removed but it's the after effects that linger on. Get well soon QF we outside of the engineering business are thinking of you guys/gals right now:ok:
Life without risk is not life at all.

CW

[arkmark]

Dear Engineers,

ITS ABOUT TIME YOU STOOD UP AND ASKED FOR WHAT YOU DESERVE.

YOUR WAGES HAVE BEEN ERODED BY OVER YEARS, AND NOW IT'S AN EMPLOYEES MARKET IT IS TIME TO TAKE BACK THE GROUND YOU HAVE LOST OVE SO LONG.

NO ENGINEER SHOULD BE WORKING FOR LESS THAN $170k FOR THE LEVEL OF SKILL AND RESPONSIBILITY THAT YOU CARRY.

5% IS NOT ENOUGH - A COLLEAGUE OF MINE JUST GAVE ONE OF HIS SALES STAFF IN PERTH A $30k PAY RISE IN A SINGLE HIT JUST TO RETAIN THE GUY.

I AM FLYING TOMORROW AND IF I AM DELAYED, AS A CUSTOMER, I WILL BE LETTING QANTAS KNOW AS BEST I CAN THAT I SUPPORT YOU TOTALLY.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Nah! Its not the money...apparently.(?)

From today's 'West Aust' (PH), page 1 no less....

"QANTAS has secret plan for strike breakers'.
Then goes on to say Qantas has devised a plan to smash the influence of a powerful trade union with strike breakers being offerred $100,000 for just six months work as aircraft engineers.

It goes on to say that the airline has been 'quietly offering contracts to strike breakers at least since mid-January, documents reveal.'

Aircraft engineers chasing a 5%/year pay rise - '...Geoff Dixon has said he will not budge from a 3% / year offer...'

Further down.....
....'Sydney labour hire firm, Newport Aviation'.....
offers contracts for six months or less,....
'about $2300/week and dangle a $40,000 "completion bonus".
This equates to about double the average.......

What more can an 'interested' SLF say??
:ugh::ugh:

[Teal]

The dispute centres on the union's demand for a 5%-a-year pay rise. Mr Dixon has said he will not budge from 3%.Someone should point out to the former bean counter (Dixon) that the average Australian wage moved by 4.8% for the year ended March 2008. (Source: ABS) 5% seems very reasonable.

http://news.theage.com.au/business/average-weekly-wage-in-australia-1124-20080515-2ei9.html

I wonder how much his own remuneration package has moved in recent years...? Then again, if I was on his package, I could probably just get by without a few annual increases.:hmm:

[A. Le Rhone]

Here's an idea Mr Dixon. Why not just pay the current loyal engineers what you are prepared to pay the unknown scabs? Clearly, as QF are now offering this salary, you must believe it to be the industry norm.

100k for 6m or 200k for 12m. Perhaps as a sign of goodwill, the current engineers might like to offer themselves to QF an even more attractive salary deal for the airline, say $199 /year.

Problem solved.

Bit more than a 5% rise but you guys are worth it.

[Short_Circuit]

I wonder how much his own remuneration package has moved in recent years...?
From a previous post
good old geoff's pay went from approx 5.2million to 6.7million last year. Now my math isnt perfect but does that not equal a 30% increase.

[rudderless1]

Nor does it include bonuses!
Less than 50% of Dixon's pay would satisfy the difference between what they are offering 1600 LAME's.
He would still get all his bonus!:ok:

[Toolpants]

From the Australian website:
QANTAS engineers have backed down from planned industrial action, indicating they will accept a smaller increase in their wage demand.
ACTU president Sharan Burrow has asked the union to call off its four-hour stop-work meeting planned for tomorrow afternoon, which would have caused Qantas to cancel a number of domestic flights.
She said the engineers would be willing to accept a rise somewhere in between the 5 per cent they demanded and the 3 per cent Qantas had continued to offer over the previous 18 months of failed wage negotiations.

Fed Sec. SP. Remember we want 5% in our pockets before we call it off!

[Torqueman]

Don't worry about what Sharan Burrow's got to say. She doesn't have a vote in the EBA.....This is most likely pressure from the Rudd government.

Fed Sec, keep up the good work. Don't let the team down.

[Teal]

The latest ABS figures (out today) show that Australian wages have increased by 4.8% for the year ended March 2008.

http://news.theage.com.au/business/average-weekly-wage-in-australia-1124-20080515-2ei9.html

A 5% claim by QF engineers would seem very reasonable and fair.:D

[excellr8]

"The management of this company has contributed far more to its wellbeing and success than any bloody union has," he said.

Maybe I'm quoting out of context or maybe he's just in another orbital, but if that's the case maybe all of QF's employee's can stop work and Dicko and Co can clean the planes, turn them around, fix them, fuel them, cater them, feed the pax and fly them etc!

If they can do all that then they certainly do deserve all the bonus's they receive which is sure as sh!t more than 3%

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad:

[wanty]

"She doesn't have a vote in the EBA"

This is not an EBA

An EBA involves negotiation on both sides.

Follow PPM and AMM 110%

This alone will win us our 5%

Aircraft on the ground don't earn money.

[Capt Kremin]

Fairfax press and the ABC are reporting that Industrial action for tomorrow is off and negotiations may be starting up. QF's share price is up today from 3.45 to to currently 3.68 on the news. (noted!)

[arkmark]

Engineers need 10% not a pathetic 5%

You also NEED to strike to prove your point. The airlines already know that engineers don't like the idea of striking and so unless you actually do it to prove your resolve then the negotiation is lost.

You guys are so powerful -- if you would just stick together and make this happen your employment conditions would become exactly what you want.

[delta 4]

GD on the ABC radio this morning said that shareholders were more important than the QF employees and derserved the money as dividends before the workers got 1 cent more than 3% offered.

as for the increased jobs in Qf that GD always sprouts, it hasn't been at the coal face in engineering, I recall we were around 2100, now 1500 LAME's with many more aircraft (Qf & customer) on line and they are flying them longer each day reducing maintenance time available.

Sad thing is, 3%, 5%, $200k or whatever, the problems facing engineering (or your dept.) are still there the very next day;

same management,
lack of manpower,
increasing work load,
fatigue issues,
stress issues,
training....which if we got, we'd loose people off the floor to do the work

Engineering are under resourced, doing safety critical maintenance at 5am, while under fatigue and stress and often without proper meal breaks. I'ts a bloody wonder it still functions

Basically there appears to be no hope of a "sustainable future" for this airline, no matter what GD tells the media or shareholders.

God only knows where it will end up.

but this fight is way beyond a pay rise, it IS about our futures........

delta4

[JETTRONIC]

The sleeping giant has awoken. :}

5% and not less, pen is ready and primmed. :ok:

Hope this management comes to it's senses before all hell brakes loose....

[wanty]

Good post Delta 4

[Captain Dart]

I'm sure there are pilots inherited by QF from 'that year' who will have no qualms.

[str022]

You said it delta 4

Someone should tell GD that unless he has staff to make the airline function so customers actually get from A to B on time(haha) there would be no shareholders....





:mad::mad::mad::ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad:

[flystraight]

If they keep pushing, I hope it never comes to it but all the ingredients are there now,they will get coverage on every major news coverage in the world but know one will like the TITLE or the PICTURES.

[cjam]

Terresa Green, I definately wasn't meaning to be derogatory when I called lame's blue collar workers, sorry if it came across like that. The term probably conjurs up different images in my brain than it does in yours, I associate it with hard working/honest people who are productive. I dug this definition up on a web site;

"The term blue-collar is derived from uniform dress codes of industrial workplaces. Industrial and manual workers wear durable clothing that can be soiled or scrapped at work. A popular element of such “work clothes” has been, and still is, a light or navy blue shirt. Blue is also a popular color for coveralls, and will usually carry a name tag of the company/establishment on one side, and the individual's name on the other. Often these items are bought by the company and laundered by the establishment as well."

During the seven years I was fixing planes I pretty much always wore " a light or navy blue shirt. Blue is also a popular color for coveralls, and will usually carry a name tag of the company/establishment on one side, and the individual's name on the other".
Cheers.
PS Did you guys strike? I passed through Brisbane and saw plenty of guys/gals on the tarmac and we weren't delayed.

[wanty]

Often these items are bought by the company and laundered by the establishment as well.

Rofl, other than 3% increases,that is pretty much all QF have done for anyone other than management for years is supply and launder their clothes.

[cjam]

What do you suggest the pilots do?
They would be standing (and falling) on their own if they acted individually. It would have to also be a union descision me thinks.

[Yikes]

Unfortunately secondary boycotts are illegal

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

FYI readers. Latest notice out now.

After a meeting today with ACTU President Sharan Burrow, we have decided to take the responsible decision of postponing our stop work meetings planned for Friday the 16th and 23rd of May. Sharan has advised that she will be writing to Geoff Dixon calling for further meetings of the parties with ACTU guidance. We were more than happy to take the responsible approach considering a number of developments in the past 2 days. The PIA Overtime bans remain in place and must be adhered to by all members.


With the huge amount of publicity regarding our dispute, we have taken stock of where we sit tactically and are pleased with some of the results of this week’s events. For those concerned about lockouts, the bad press regarding strikebreaker labour has forced the following public statement from the Qantas CEO -

“We have no intention of locking anybody out,” Mr Dixon said

“We have no intention of replacing our workforce. There'll be no balaclavas, there will be no dogs.”

Malaysian Airlines have approached us for assistance to help them identify their employees who may have abandoned employment or broken company policies by accepting Newport Aviation contracts. Over the weekend we had reports that the $100,000 6 month wage for strikebreakers had been increased to $140,000 due to the reluctance of LAMEs to accept the contracts and this may have created a divide within the alternative workforce. Strikebreakers would be aware by now that there is intense media scrutiny of their movements and they may find themselves identified through the media. We understand that a number of strikebreakers have withdrawn their services.

Our office has received some calls today from members complaining that they heard of the latest developments from the press before we had issued a notice. Quite simply, if a notice had been issued first, we would have lost our advantage in the public relations battle. Members will continue to receive ALAEA advice and notifications when they need it.

Press reports that the ALAEA has backed down and are now talking about the acceptance of a lesser offer are false. We are seeking a 5% pa wage rise and your continued pressure from overtime bans will assist this process. Now is the time to remind Qantas that they have been overzealous with their redundancy programs and rely too much on our goodwill to keep Qantas planes on time. Goodwill should flow both ways and until it does, ours has been withdrawn. Members should continue to expect the unexpected.

Today’s decision was a significant move in winning public and political support for our objectives. Members should be aware by now that this dispute is not taking place in a vacuum and will not be won overnight. The ALAEA is receiving advice and support from all quarters and will continue to play our cards at the right time.







STEPHEN PURVINAS
Federal Secretary

[maui]

Cjam and Yikes

All you need do is to apply the tech log and MEL rigorously in compliance with the regs. No more no less.

That will give the engineers all the ammunition and leverage they need.

No union directive or initiative required. Just stick to the rules. If it's sus, write it up. Don't move until it's fixed or MEL'ed. Quite simple really, and it's a no jeopardy situation. A union with half a ball would back you if some company thug tries to heavy you, (but then again we are talking about AIPA aren't we:))

Maui

[wanty]

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Minimbah]

Qantas engineers call off stop-work action

Posted 3 hours 28 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 19 minutes ago

Around 1,500 Qantas engineers were planning to walk off the job. (File photo) (Getty Images: Cameron Spencer)

Audio: Qantas, union trade lying allegations (The World Today) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/twt/200805/20080515twt02-qantas-action.mp3)
Related Story: Strike set to cause Qantas delays (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2245281.htm)
Qantas aircraft engineers have called off stop-work action which had threatened to disrupt domestic flights tomorrow.
The engineers are locked in a dispute over a wage deal, and had accused Qantas of recruiting strike breakers to thwart industrial action.
But Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU) president Sharan Burrow says she has asked unions to postpone tomorrow's industrial action.
She wants Qantas management to come back to the bargaining table.
"This is not a backdown for these workers, they're prepared to put on the action, I don't want anybody left in doubt about that," she said.
"When I got up this morning and looked at the situation I decided that it would be best for everybody to get a much broader discussion through the unions.
"You can't do that in a few hours."
Ms Burrow says she will write to Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon this afternoon to ask him to come back to the negotiating table.
"It would be very hard for the Australian public to actually understand why Qantas would threaten their job security, would refuse to sit at the table to bargain for a very simple request, which is just a maintenance of living standards," she said.
"I think even Geoff Dixon would say that's a reasonable request."
Steve Purvinas from the Licenced Engineers Association says it will meet with other unions next week and in the meantime will continue with overtime bans.
"I don't think this is [a] backdown, I think it's a responsible step that needed to be taken, he said

[The_King]

GD got a little bit angry on that audio link. The pressure must be getting to him

[Mr Pilot 2007]

To put their requested pay increase in perspective

2006
Likewise, Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon received a package worth over $6.4 million. Last year, Qantas relocated cabin crew jobs overseas to reduce its wages bill and threatened the jobs of maintenance workers unless they made substantial concessions to cut costs.

Link here http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jan2006/ceos-j26.shtml

[satos]

This is not a backdown for these workers, they're prepared to put on the action, I don't want anybody left in doubt about that," she said.
"When I got up this morning and looked at the situation I decided that it would be best for everybody to get a much broader discussion through the unions.
"You can't do that in a few hours."
What do you mean Sharon that you can't do that in a few hours.
Qantas has had over a year to negotiate with the union (if you can call it that)and they still wont budge from their appalling 3% offer.If this isn't backing down then I don't know what is.
My fellow engineers we must do the hard yards in order to get what we deserve.

[Capt Wally]

This guy (GD) is one cool customer, he didn't get to the most hated by the QF employees for being a nice guy. I feel he has a card or two up his sleeve, this guy ain't gunna give away a thing without taking down someone with him. These business types think their so far beyond the natural law of decency because of their percieved power that they now live in a vacuum insulated from the man on the street. If & I truley wish this happens that the engineers can succeed in getting even 0.5 % more than what GD will offer will be a huge move forward a slap in the face for the GD's of the world & will be a win for the decent hard working folk out there, the ones that keep GD well heeled in his overly padded chair of life! It would be a sign, a sign for all to rejoice.

Again as said numerous times here, good luck although you guys don't really need it & even if by some slight chance the 5% doesn't get up then that doesn't mean yr worth less, it means that GD is worthless!:)

At the end of the day GD is older than most wishing him gone. he can't last 4ever & he can't take his ill gotten wealth with him, he can't ever hurt anyone like he is now after he is gone & he leaves a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths that will haunt his family & friends long after he has gone. I don't with this upon his family nobody would am sure but it would be nice if nothing else if his close friends(if he has any!)/family could take him aside & simply say, is it or was all that money/power really worth the legacy you have shamefully left us?:bored:


CW:ok:

[Acute Instinct]

"GD on the ABC radio this morning said that shareholders were more important than the QF employees and derserved the money as dividends before the workers got 1 cent more than 3% offered".

Delta 4, I also commend your post. May I add one possible solution to GD's problem. He take a 50% pay cut down to a miserly $3.35M, yet still remain the highest paid Airline CEO in the World, then invest the relinquished $3.35M to an engineers fund. Unbelievably, his sacrifice would cover the 1600 LAMES pay request. Now that's an investment in Qantas' future.

GD, did you have any idea how repulsive this level of greed could be to the rank and file. Let alone your grab for $60M with APA. You do now!

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Good Luck to the ginger beers, hopefully this can play out without the forecast doom and gloom from the usual suspects and you people get what is FAIR in todays CPI. Anything less when the profits are soaring, there is a shortage of your skills and fuel is "surcharged" is just plain rude. As PAF would be hesitant to point out supply and demand means you are now worth more coz there's less of you, even with the "trained strikebreakers". Interesting to see how that would play out with the right media spin.

The most interesting thing in all this is the continued angst from a range of big Q employees from across the board. I have a conehead mate who left to go to the Q recently and gets paid a bit more, staff travel, had all the ratings and is a very good LAME. After 6 months he wants back on less money with more work. He's well fed up with the culture in management. I have another couple of mates who are pilots with Q, who again enjoy their workmates, but hate the management and without getting too specific aren't exactly keen on the classics.Same with the MAM's they aren't exactly happy campers (no pun intended) from what I'm told.

It's sad to see what was once considered the pinnacle of aviation jobs in Australia turn into a bit of a curse. Good luck to the LAME's and well done with the PIA, good way to get them to listen without putting others out too much.

[727ace]

i believe from a very good source that there are about 24 engineers on contract on a similar deal of $10000 per month ( 38 to 44 hrs per week ) with no end clause!!! and were recruited from QF's own ranks over the last 10 months.:uhoh: so be aware of your own!!!!!

[delta 4]

Stay cool people,
the reasonable demand of 5% (ref ACTU sect) in line with cost of living is indeed a reasonable demand, when wages have grown at 4.8%

Given the past bragging of GD of record profits in the climate of harsh times etc, etc, surely this is what the public will hang him on especially when the general public are hurting too from interest rates, cost of living fuel costs etc.

All those record profits, no trickle down effect to the troops, and the fat cats getting fatter is real BAD for GD's case for 3%.

now consider the private equity bid, I cannot remember how many of the Qf management team were going to own a part of Qf, but it was around 1% of 11 billion when the deal was to be done (say 30 managers owning $110 million) it was to grow to 4.5% and Qf worth 40% more after 5 yrs.............soooooo

11 billion becomes 15.4 billion and the 30 odd managers worth 4.5% of that is worth 693 million, how much did GD miss out on? Is he pissed?

what do you reckon, guess he wants to kick heads

It's like a game of chess, be 3-5 steps ahead, make sure your back door is covered and every step is well thought out.

I reckon the ALAEA is doing a great job.....but it's early days, just stay cool and we'll win with logic, reason and the moral high ground

Just my thoughts

D4

[Knumb Knuts]

:} When in comes to industrials, the Lames' union has never demonstrated anything other than Knumb Knuts. :E The Lames have backed down every time.:8

[The masked goatrider]

You can't tell a bully you're about to punch him in the nose and think you will get away with it. Better to kick him in the nuts and run like .... If this keeps happening, eventually he will get the message. :ok::ok::ok:

[The masked goatrider]

When in comes to industrials, the Lames' union has never demonstrated anything other than Knumb Knuts. The Lames have backed down every time.

Wake up mate. The LAMEs are still taking action it's just been masked by all the other press. Overtime bans are in full swing and will ground new aircraft everyday.

[Toolpants]

Yup! That will win you "public" support.


Yep, I couldn’t agree more. The traveling public will be very upset that due to Mr Dixon’s management failure they are now being inconvenienced.

[Capt Wally]

I wanted to highlight this again..............At the end of the day GD is older than most wishing him gone. He can't last 4ever, he can't take his ill gotten wealth with him, he can't ever hurt anyone like he is now after he is gone & he leaves a bitter taste in a lot of peoples mouths that will haunt his family & friends long after he has gone. I don't wish this upon his family nobody would am sure but it would be nice if nothing else if his close friends(if he has any!)/family could take him aside & simply say, is it or was all that money/power really worth the legacy you have shamefully left us?:bored:



CW

[Capt Wally]

PAF I was refering to the ones GD is acting against (the workers) rather than acting for. Their the 'true' share holders of QF just not in money terms, which is the root of all QF's eveil!:bored:



CW

[spanner90]

Righto PAF,

I'm a shareholder in the company that employs you (as we all are), aren't you lucky you don't have to rely on your "union" to get a pay rise every couple of years! Just a bit of out-sourcing (CSP), productivity increases (sqn name changes), yup, that'll do it, another pay rise thanks!

Spanner (cynically)

[AEROMEDIC]

Are you talking about the same shareholders (of which I am one) who were almost sold down the river with the takeover deal. The deal endorsed by Dixon and the board giving themselves millions of dollars in shares. ???
Are you talking about the shareholders that would have seen the company debt/equity ratio go from 25:75 to 75:25 ???
When a board blinded by greed fails to carry out checks on a consortium that is attempting the takeover to see if they are adequately and properly financed in a manner that is in the interests of the company, then that's failure of their fiduciary duty.
ASIC is legally obliged to step in, charge, convict and jail these morally bankrupt persons.
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[spanner90]

No thanks, I did that gig for over 20 years.

I have a job that I enjoy every day. I earn a fair salary (less than when I wore spotty uniforms). I am not a member of a union (don't even know if one would have me?). I live in the same house as my family (finally), and can even take them with me when I go away for work.

I think engineers have been suffering from a little too much BOHICA recently!

Spanner

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Quote from PAF
"What I do point out is that striking should be illegal, and those that do strike are morally bankrupt. Willing to deliberately harm others to achieve their aim."

This is a VERY immature statement Mr Frozo. The primary intention to take industrial action is to improve ones working conditions when ALL other avenues have been exhausted. To gain a fair increase on the standards of living as prescribed by the CPI is not that extreme an idea. It is not to harm others and if it does it will illustrate the importance of any worker group in an organisation and hopefully gain that fair and equitable CPI rise. Don't spruik your idealistic, perfect world scenarios to people who just want a fair deal and have asked for that reasonably by an intransient management group. You always seem to blame the workers. Why is that?

Your comments about leaving for other jobs is just plain offensive. Some people want to work for companies and in certain cities, they like their jobs and unlike you, money might not be their primary motivating factor in staying somewhere, maybe they are proud of the company and it's history. I get well fed up with short term managers who say "if you don't like it leave" Guess what econ 101 MBA master managers are emloyees too and if they don't like it they can leave too and generally do when their short sighted policies fall apart in the real world. It's arrogant to the extreme to treat employees this way and this attitude goes some way in explaining some of the main problems in previous industrial relations in Australia.

If you treat your employees well you'll get more out of them. If you did your MBA you may have done the management course that outlines the very specific differences between Australian employees as opposed to other cultures. In Australia micro managing doesn't work, we like to be left alone to do our work. Aussies work best when empowered and independent, trust them and treat them well and production will show this. Your style of yelling and take what you get is old thinking and hopefully Q and others will discover this before it implodes and if you want the examples of companies that succeed by using my model just do a couple of searches on these pages. If not go back to your books or maybe a current working successful company.

Sorry for the rant punters but the old industrial action doom and gloom scenario gets boring and anyone who's put in the position that means they even have to consider it has to put up with the PAFs of this world who assume they are the red raggers, want to destroy the company and are not intelligent which in this case is certainly not true. Ahhh, cliches are the domain of the unimaginative.

Game on

[NAS1801]

Go easy on old PAF..... it takes him a lot of time to type out his messages with only one hand on the keyboard.

I gather he sees it not unfit for the workers of this country to be returned to the dark old days of no rights?

Look at is this way PAF, Dixon and co are on top. We are down below, the pillars holding him up. If we are not taken care of, we crumble and what we hold up, will come crashing down.

Let Dixon destroy the pillars of Qantas if he wishes..... he will deserve the fall that follows.

[primethius]

Lets face it you ALAEAs members are not Union members.
The expectation the Federal Executive have for a starwart group that agrees with the Federal Executive is sadly misplayed.
Have a look at the first ideal against the man how long did it take to falter.

[jakethemuss]

Mate, are you Osama Bin Drinkin?

[chemical alli]

will paf and lame 380 put out their hands to accept the money fought for by lames ?
you bet they will

[arkmark]

PAF you are the kind of person that other people make moneY from. The perfect prolotariat. Well done.

For other LAME's who realise that their preferred profession is underpaid I say FIGH FOR WHAT YOU ARE WORTH.

ONCE YOU REALISE THAT FIGHT IS NOT WORTH THE EFFORT, TAKE YOUR SKILLS TO ANOTER PLACE WHERE YOU WILL BE BETTER REWARDED. IN SO DOING YOU JUST WON THE FIGH AND ALSO MOVED TO GREANER PASTURES.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOUR BOSS TOOK YOU AND YOUR FAMILY OUT TO A FINE DINING MEAL? MOVE ON AND GO TO BETTER PLACES.

IT IS AN EMPLOYEES MARKET RIGHT NOW, AND ANY COMPANY MANAGER WHO DOESN'T REALISE THIS IS A LOOSER, AND THEY ARE SIMPLY NOT LOOKING AFTER THEIR SHAREHOLDERS INTERESTS BY NOT SECURING THE QUALITY OF THEIR LABOUR FORCE.

GEOFF YOU HAVE STAYED TOO LONG AND HAVE AN OLD TIMERS VISION. IT'S TIME TO MOVE WITH THE TIMES OR MOVE ON.


BY THE WAY PAF -- AS A CLIENT ONLY I WHOLLY SUPPORT THE ENGINEERS STRIKE. ANY PERSONAL INCONVENIENCE IS MINOR COMPARED TO HAVING A BETTER PRODUCT AVAILABLE TO ME IN THE FUTURE.

[Managers Perspective]

IT IS AN EMPLOYEES MARKET RIGHT NOW

Not sure I agree with that bit.

Has been for a while but not sure right now with some companies re-sizing.

M.P.

[teresa green]

I am off to LHR today, but was prepared to swim. Don't let up lads, keep going and stick it to em..

[Sunfish]

I am very impressed with the "New" ALAEA management.

BTW, PAF can be safely added to your ignore lists as he knows nothing about that which he continually squeaks about.

[employes perspective]

i just rewarded my staff with a 15% to 26% pay increase for the last 18 months,they are a semi skilled workforce,and my cost has been rising also for that period(transport,cost of capital,rents,new taxes,capital expenditure),but i see my staff as my most valuable asset,oh and at there Christmas party they got a bit more than a $10 voucher.
Before long my staff will be on wage parity with a grade 3 LAME and don't forget they are semi skilled,perhaps in the near future i will be able to offer you guys a better paying position.cheers:ok::ok:

[ferris]

PAF is a troll. A stupid troll at that.

How do you reconcile your views on "the free market" with Quote from PAF
"What I do point out is that striking should be illegal, and those that do strike are morally bankrupt. Willing to deliberately harm others to achieve their aim."


How is withdrawing one's labour, against the working of the free market? Surely it is the purest form of the market in action? Striking morally bankrupt? When a plumber quotes a job, is he morally bankrupt if he elects not to do the work for less than what he quotes? A fairly idiotic position really- declaring your love of the free market but finding it's workings reprehensible. As for "harming others"- isn't the employer trying "harm" the employees by paying them less?

[Capt Wally]

There will always be the 'PAF's" of this world, they keep us on our toes. But the more you debate with this guy the more you feed him.
The fight is with GD & the ugly at the top, not with PAF, don't waste yr energy on him.


CW

[Capt Kremin]

To the ALAEA: Please confirm; the OT bans are still on and a professional and assiduous approach to defect reporting from tech and cabin crew would not cause the ALAEA professionals who are tasked with the rectification of same, any unwarranted stress at this time?;)

[Trojan1981]

PAF is a troll. A stupid troll at that
Agreed, and if he does work for defence I hope he enjoyed his recent 2.5% rise(well below inflation).
A capable person would stop making enemies find employment elsewhere.

[Point0Five]

Trojan1981 If you’re going to make misleading statements, can you at least post the correct % increase figure?

[wanty]

CaptKremlin To the ALAEA: Please confirm; the OT bans are still on and a professional and assiduous approach to defect reporting from tech and cabin crew would not cause the ALAEA professionals who are tasked with the rectification of same, any unwarranted stress at this time?



Absolutely write up 110% of any defects you see both in Techlog and
cabin cond/IFE logs. The more hold items that choke the front of ALL logs the better.

Even the slightest perception of a defect,WRITE IT UP. With NO ONE doing O/T and people away on stress leave or sick etc,pressure builds at an exponential rate.CASA don't like too many of those green coupons,as I'm sure you guys don't either.

[electroted]

I am not a union members and never have been. Having said that, I am not anti union either.

What outraged me in recent times was the 160% wage rise that Geoff Dixon gave himself and his fat cat Management buddies at Qantas.

Qantas are a typical greedy bunch of ruling class tools that take, take and take for themselves whilst denying anyone else more than a 3% pay rise.

On top of that Qanats was poised to use an alternative work force (or scabs in union terms) to do over Australian workers similar to the attacks upon the MUA 10 years ago.

If they do that Qantas can shove their Ailine where the sun don't shine!

I support the action of the ALAEA

[Short_Circuit]

You find-em

We'll fix-em

(if we had the time, manpower, license, parts, tools .....):ugh:

[Capt Kremin]

Copied.... will comply!:ok:

[amos2]

So, with the help of Sharon, Dicko wins again!

Is that how you see it? :ok:

[BLF Goon]

P.A.F The general public and people travelling will look at the facts.We arent asking for a rise that isnt fair.They will be upset that they have been inconvenienced, but the reason is that management have forced us into this protected industrial action because of its own greed.Surely you have to agree with me on this.:sad:

[Acute Instinct]

http://www.mytalk.com.au/aspx/pages/mediaplayer.aspx?t=audio&w=5751

2UE RADIO MANDATORY LISTENING! Sad isn't it? Time for a reality check!

[wanty]

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=999&catindustry=1226&catoccupation=1329

Any hackers no how to crash a web page lol

[Flugbegleiter]

What a fantastic spiel on 2UE. You guys are not being unrealistic. You're not being greedy. Nor is any other part of the company. As a flight attendant, I've seen how far the company is prepared to go to screw its staff over. We were backed into a corner and being an "unskilled" workforce, were easily replaceable. We lost our industrial fight years ago. But you guys still have a chance to make a difference - not just for yourselves, but for all other parts of the company.

As was said on 2UE, when a company is doing well, the staff should do well, too. We all had wage freezes when we were duped into believing that times were tough and we have never recovered that lost income, even after QF made record profits that year. And I'm not talking about one off bonuses of $700 after tax. All we want is reasonable pay increases when we are doing well. A 3% pay increase can be considered a 1.8% pay cut, due to inflation. And inflation has been at around the 4% mark for years now and none of us has got any more than 3%, so we are all behind.

And PAF, I hope you are not Australian, because you sure don't seem like an Australian. Our country was always about fairness, and when things aren't fair, we stand up to bring things back into balance. We have fair industrial rights, not through the kindness of employers, but by fighting hard for it. A lot of what has been fought for in the past is now being eroded. Trust me; I fly to the US often enough and I know what things are like there. We DO NOT want to become like that country, but we slowly are.

Guys, stay united. Speak to staff who can help you out: pilots, cabin crew and ground staff. Make sure they understand what this is about. It's not thuggery or greediness. That is what management is about.

[Capt Wally]

Great report, nobody who is in the know would say otherwise. BUT those almost heroic words are falling on deaf ears. We hear them & we agree but GD & his thieves are hardly going to take any notice of that or any other speach. Mr & Mrs general public share holders might think geeeez I wasn't aware that it was like that in our national airline & and after a little time they shall forget what anquish is being felt amongst the troops as long as QF's shares stay stable, the planes keep flying & some other sector of the work force gets the front pages of the editorials & it slowly dies off. To weaken the top of any structure you need to undermine the foundations, this is where I believe the engineers have the tools to do the job:ok:
I guess the engineers have got to 'test' the waters before they plan their next move. Greed is the engineers biggest enemy & it starts right at the top!


CW

[Ngineer]

Good stuff 2UE, but what a lot of people are forgetting is what Qantas originally offered. 3% (plus 1% super for SOME) was the final outcome after 18 months of exhaustive work by the ALAEA. What we were originally offered was a package that had the potential to cut most LAME wages in half. (XPT & Def of a LAME). I think that we should also let the media know of this.

[ejectx3]

I posted this link to the editor of the Australian and Herald Sun

[blackhander]

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/ind...ccupation=1329 (http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=999&catindustry=1226&catoccupation=1329)

These ads were appearing in The Australian early last year. Is that how long they've been trying to recruit scabs for?

[Anulus Filler]

http://www.seek.com.au/jobsearch/index.ascx?DateRange=999&catindustry=1226&catoccupation=1329

Well. In true QF management style, it is not really 'cost effective' having the scabs flying around and staying in hotels while waiting in desperate anticipation of the ALAEA's next move. So some bright spark has come up with the ingenious idea of hiring the scabs and keeping them at their home base. Problem is where are they going to come from? You got rid of a heap of dedicated people and most of them with a conscience. Most have moved on and I am sure that when they know they'll be used for scabbing, they will steer clear. I have faith in them. Sure some of them may have already signed up, but they haven't stepped foot in the place,and I don't think that they will have a very likeable work environment. Is it really worth the scab money???:sad:

[amos2]

To a scab it is worth the money and there will be more of them than you can imagine...so, don't get too cocky!

[Anulus Filler]

To a scab it is worth the money and there will be more of them than you can imagine...so, don't get too cocky!

Well considering the amount of time they have been advertising, you can't imagine there would be that many takers... let's see their faces when things start to heat up.

[amos2]

The advertising is there to keep the heat on YOU!

They would have all the scabs they need, available as and when required.

You should do some homework on past disputes where scabs have been involved.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

I'll give the results of that of that homework,previous scabs in past disputes(AME's in 01-02)very few in numbers,in Sydney maybe there was at best 15 of the bottom feeders,all thinking they would have a future with engineering if they carried out the wishes of management,once the dispute was over all but a couple remained,the ones that left couldn't handle the silence,(imagine sitting on your own ever lunch time,no one to give you a hand if your stuck on a job,people looking straight through you),most cracked very quickly and left and the one's that remained also are now gone with the closure of H245...

[jakethemuss]

There you are frodo.

An answer to the question please.

Where do you think Qantas would be now had the APA deal gone through?

[rudderless1]

PAF, your an idiot!
So your saying QF and you are happy now to pay engineers $140 000 per six months. That being the case this will be over tomorrow.:ok:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Here we go again, Mr Frozo why is it you are so hostile to strikes? Why is it you blame the union/employee when this sort of PROTECTED INDUSTRIAL ACTION is taken. You always seem to think that the employees want to go through the hardship, polarisation and pain of this sort of situation for the fun of it, or to just cause trouble. What if that's all that's left to do after they've exhausted all other avenues. Ohh, that's right your idea is they should leave, bugger family, workmates, pride, quality, history or any of those other things you don't seem to think employees can have with a job.

You don't seem to find fault in a posturing manager trying to begin or prolong conflict and alienate a workforce. Your strange ideals put new style managers in the god zone as being there only for the shareholders.

If people choose to undermine their workmates conditions for short term gain then that's their business, if others choose to treat them with disdain then that's their choice also. As we've seen in the past none of this would be good so let's just support a FAIR CPI rise and forget some Manager who thinks he'll look better if he squeezes a group of employees and hope his type dissappear and managers who understand the value of long term happy employees start to get a go rather than the old, dated style of managers we've been hearing and seeing.

[wanty]

Robbed this Quote from the link below. Keep up the fight boys,stay united and jam their overtime up their arse !!!!

http://www.hpae.org/clarion0704onevoice2.htm


"In life as we move forward not often enough do we pause to look back and appreciate some of the things we have done in the past that makes it a better place to live in now"

Others can do it, so can we:

http://www.hpae.org/clarion0704onevoice2.htm

Sorry boss,I'm unavailable...............hehe

[wanty]

Overtime ban (wikipedia) :

An overtime ban is a form of industrial action where employees limit their working time to the hours specified in their contracts, refusing to work any overtime. Overtime bans are less disruptive than strike action, and since there is no breach of contract by the employees there is less chance of disciplinary action by the employer than there is with strikes. However, an
overtime ban can have a significant impact on industries which normally operate outside of regular office hours, such as emergency services,
EG (Broken plane) in a foreign port :ok:, public transport,
EG (QF) :ok:..........HEHE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_ban

[wanty]

They represent the selfish union members

You've got to be joking !!!

How is it selfish to ask for a payrise which keeps pace with inflation ???

Whats selfish is management giving themselves huge pay rises in mutiples of inflation and then tell people under them they have to tighten their belts and stop being greedy !!!


TOOL

[wanty]

- --- --- .-..

[Toolpants]

PAF: I thought GD made it clear to you already years ago, they don’t give a stuff what platinum FF or any pax think. Write all the letter you want.

As you said, QF should be able to put out the wage they are offering us to the market and see who they get.
As they know they will get nobody, they are offering twice our wage to get people and still failing.

Don’t worry. I’m impressed with your Platinum thingy, even if QF aren’t.

[Capt Wally]

Guys guys guys i've said it before ya gotta stop feeding the PAF's of the world, the more you try to get this guy to see common sense the more you feed him. If you ignore him completly (& there's an obvious way to do that) then he will soon tire & when he is no longer being fed by way of barking back at him he will die off!


CW

[Toolpants]

But CW, I really am impressed with his platinum thing.

[indamiddle]

to the ginger beers, you should be asking for a 500% pay increase to keep up with management. imagine the uproar in the press, great way to tick off the bosses and highlight exactly what is going on.... then reduce your demands to a reasonable level.
c'mon PAF, you are really AIRCRAFT aren't you? i bet you tell people at parties you are a platinum ff just to impress them.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I dont believe PAF is for real.All that he says here is just for a reaction.

Actually,PAF is the best fisherman in the world,because with not much bait,he catches alot of ppruners.........Good one PAF...hahahaha

Throw us another line,and we'll see who takes the bait,hey!!:}

[max1]

PAF,

The Qantas engineers are not asking for the world. People wouldn't mind wage restraint so much if they saw it being exercised by those preaching it. Rather than the current management greed, justified by paying the going rate.
Aligning yourself with Dixons spin does not make you some quasi Captain of Industry or put you in the club with him. GD will not meet you some day, shake your hand, and declare you his soul brother. The sooner you realise this, the sooner your recovery will start.
Take deep breaths , go for a long walk, smell the roses, maybe do some volunteer work, try to empathise with others, and then you will start to feel better about yourself.
Hope this helps.

[satos]

If Qantas was loosing money then we would show a bit of restraint,but this company has been turning over profit year after year at the expense of it's work force.The only people (if you can call them that) that have given themselves pay rises are GD and his cronies.The work force is the one that has built this company and should be shown better respect.
Many of my friends have been asked to be a scab but have told the job agencies in no uncertain terms what they think of them.
Stick together people we will triumph in the end.

[Torqueman]

Originally posted by Pass-A-Frozo

This is exactly the catalyst QF management require to outsource maintenance.


Your ignorance of this industry is astounding. You should try working in this industry.

CATALYST. Good one!

They have what's called an AGENDA to dilute this skilled workforce to the point where there is no option but to send the work off shore.

Get a life PAF. When you have become more enlightened, feel free to comment.

[Short_Circuit]

PAF said
I'm happy for Engineer's to be paid what the market rate is.

And that is all we want also.

DickCoxson does not agree with that and QF engineers are now the lowest paid in AUS.

So what are you going on about PAF.

PAF says give up and leave if you dont like it,

Does the ADF have the same attitude? I think NOT.

QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT :cool:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Capt Wally I can appreciate what you say about PAF's baiting tactics but I have a problem with his style. When he is winning a discussion or had valid points he will shout from the rooftops and cry foul if you go the man. If he starts to get bettered or finds he's out of his league, he resorts to the stereotype baiting style. He'll harp on about his learning and throw stats and links about, but when he's confronted with real experience or modern thought he again becomes disingenious with the taunts.

There is a very specific psychology involved with people like our PAF and I don't expect him to listen to my opinion. I understand he has no empathy or a significant social conscience. He believes he's right and no amount of logic or theorising will change that, he thinks what he's read 5 years ago is the way it's done and that's all there is to it. That style of thinking lacks forethought, it's narrow minded and often gets people into trouble , myself included. In the end I just feel sorry for him because of what he misses out on because of they way he writes.

He may have his own reasons to feel and behave this way, I don't know him, just what he writes and the way he does it. He may have good reasons for the anger he seems to spew about. What I do know is he claims to be in the ADF and that's a good thing because that's a service to all of us and he deserves respect for that. As to me not jumping to the bait I just can't seem to stop, I find it fun and it gives me something to think about which may be his intent in the end.

So to the LAME's who've had their thread hijacked by me and others rebutting PAF's ego I'm sorry, and you have my full support for your worthy and fair protected industrial action. Good luck and if my diction is too much, chuck me on your ignore list and my little essays will go away too.

[shitthatsbig]

Just a special thanks to the ALAEA and all Engineering saff for holding off on the Strike action. We were coming up a little short on those strike breakers and we still have to get the numbers distributed around the network. This extra time will certainly help. Thanks

WELL THATS WHAT THEY WILL BE SAYING UP IN M'S OFFICE.

I am sure you could rephrase that:ugh:

The following appeared on Seek on Friday......... The same mob that offered me a job on 100k+ 6 months ago to standby for action.

Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

Heavy Jet Experience


We are currently seeking Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers ( LAME ) with heavy jet experience.

Successful applicants will be rewarded with an attractive salary package to ensure we attract the best. Appropriate training will be offered to successful applicants.

All applications should include work history and experience including appropriate currency of licences. You must be CASA licenced.

For further enquiries can be made to David Kosoric in Sydney on +61 2 9375 2127.

Please apply online at

:ok:

Just back it off a notch thanks...and enough of the names unless public domain...as in the last part of your post.

Much Ado

[600ft-lb]

market rates ?? like virgin blue's market rates of ~$100k per single engine and airframe license. yes please!


how about jetstars... ~$100k per single engine and airframe license ???

yet qantas $1023/week per single engine / airframe license until you wait for 4 years when it goes to $1100, or you get some training..... which is in abundance eh ???

im all for market rates too. i might even buy a new car if i get paid market rates, or go out for dinner for once... although one can dream

[Much Ado]

Guys this thread is garnering just a tad more attention than we'd like from the PPrune powers that be.

Can you please just cut out the thread drift...put PAF on your ignore list rather than debate him here...and enough of the scab label...come up with something a little more creative.

Some of you need to take a lot more care with what you post. If you wouldn't say it to the people's concerned face for fear of a libel suit then it certainly doesn't belong here...you're not that anonymous

Nobody wants to see this thread closed/deleted so just calm down or it will be.

To potential posters not directly involved, or the serial thread drifters like captain wally, if you have nothing meaningful to post then dont.

Good luck to all.

[17S switch]

Much Ado, we are happy to have the attention of the powers that be at pprune, and I for one hope that the wider public are also aware of this.
Closing this thread wil not solve any problems. It may force the debate out into a more public forum, but people will still find a way to express their emotions. Do you not want to be a part of that?
Paf, Capt Wally et al, I think we can handle. And if I ever meet them I will be sure that whatever I say on here, they will hear in person.

[grouter]

good on ya 17.
I know all the guys in my port were pissed off the 4 hr stoppage was cancelled. They would be happy for a 48 hr exclusion. What say you?

[17S switch]

Well grouter, it's only 2 days without pay. Vive le revoloution

[Sunfish]

Please add PAF to your ignore list.

What he always talks is rubbish. My guess is that he is a bored indivisual with access to a high school economics textbook and an old one at that.

e.g:

The fact remains. Action like what you discuss effects other people.

I'm happy for Engineer's to be paid what the market rate is. The problem is that a certain collective of people (a.k.a. union) are debating what the market rate is. Union's don't represent engineering staff. They represent the selfish union members. An attempt to demand monopolistic labor pricing. If unions can shut the labor supply down to demand wage increases, then companies should be able to lock out workers and hire others who will happily work for those wages.

Absolutely disgraceful behavior.

This is exactly the catalyst QF management require to outsource maintenance.


He simply ignores the fact that there is only one way to set market rates. Offer a price and see if people are prepared to trade for the price asked.

If they aren't, well, you had better raise the offer price hadn't you?

What the LAME's are telling Qantas is that their offer is too low - and they are doing it in the most efficient manner by withdrawing part of their their product (labor) temporarily.

That in effect is a "price signal" to QF that if they don't raise their offer the Labor will be withdrawn permanently, and of course, when experience is taken into account, that is a "Lose/lose" result.

As for outsourcing, that is never, ever decided on price alone, since outsourcing inevitably adds to business risk.

[17S switch]

Sunfish, I would not add paf to my ignore list as I enjoy a good laugh when he/she posts.

[sniggiH]

I agree with you PAF you raise some very valid points.

[Sunfish]

New Troll = Sniggi

[indamiddle]

sniggi, the only valid points raised by PAF is adjacent to his cats a&$=.
all we need now is aircraft back.... the 3 amigos.
p.s. qf 1 running very late again

[Flugbegleiter]

PAF and sniggi, I understand that people like you have a different ideology. In a perfect world, it would be as easy as you suggest, but unfortunately, when you work for a greedy corporation like Qantas, the only language they understand is this industrial action and money.

Look at school teachers, years ago in NSW and just recently in VIC. Their pays had slipped way behind what they once were, mainly because of years of minimal pay rises, causing them to slip behind while inflation forged ahead. Finally, these teachers said "Enough is enough" and started to take industrial action. The government finally agreed and now these people will be paid the wage they deserve - no more, no less.

It is not different with the Qantas LAMEs. For years now, they have seen this company make record profits. The whole time, they have received minimal pay rises that were always lower than inflation. A few years back, they even voluntarily took a wage freeze for 18 months, because the company claimed to be in trouble. That year, managers still took healthy bonuses. On top of that, they are working harder and longer than ever, due to staff cuts and tighter flight schedules.

This industrial action has not just come about overnight. And for now, there are only overtime bans. They are not breaking any contract or doing any wilful damage to the company. They are merely agreeing to work their standard hours, but nothing more.

Your posts here are pointless. You have a different view to almost everyone else here and your posts won't achieve anything, apart from making people angry. You cannot change our views, because you do not live our lives.

[NAS1801]

I'm not trying to change your view. I'm simply pointing out where I think you are wrong.

and 81% of LAME's think YOU are wrong PAF.

I temporaraly removed you from my ignore list to see what you have to say. You're still true to form. Back to ignore!!! Bye Troll!!

[NAS1801]

oops... did somebody say something??

This message is hidden because Pass-A-Frozo is on your ignore list.

[wanty]

Whilst you blame management, why should someone like a small import company be punished because you are upset with your management? What have they done to you, other than give business to the company you work for?


Thats just too bad for the Qantas brand then isn't it.
Why should't I do something to affect their brand and profit margin as thier actions,try to keep me and mine behind inflation.

I won't loose 1 wink of sleep at all.

Your forgetting it was Dicko and his cronies who inflamed this situation to begin with.

[max1]

PAF,
Do you believe that Qantas management has done anything wrong?
Is QE properly staffed i.e. From reading these threads do they have enough bodies on the floor to do the work that is required in an airline of this size.
O/T is a cheaper option than employing full time staff, it seems O/T is the norm to keep things running. Should these engineers continue to sacrifice their families to continue the running of this airline and deliver large profits and management bonuses and not share in the rewards.By simply leaving themselves vulnerable to O/T bans have GD and co. stuffed up?
Is this the very best management crew Qantas can have, Have there been stuff ups in regard to aircraft selection and configuration, and not opening up new routes, have their been price fixing cartels that have cost alot of money?
I have a wise friend in business who always said that any petty larceny or stuff up that one of his workers made was a drop in the ocean compared with the howlers that can be made from above.
How did the 'worlds greatest managers' let it get to this? Sure you've got to feel for those being mucked about, but don't hang it all on the engineers.

[satos]

Pass-A-Frozo

Whilst you blame management, why should someone like a small import company be punished because you are upset with your management? What have they done to you, other than give business to the company you work for?
In case you have been living in another planet Pass it is a cruel world out there and sometimes you have got to stand up for yourself and fight for what you believe in.
I have done nothing wrong to business's contracted to Qantas. Dixon is the man you should be directing your questions at.
Unless you have worked for Qantas kindly keep your opinions to yourself as you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

[jakethemuss]

Whilst you blame management, why should someone like a small import company be punished because you are upset with your management? What have they done to you, other than give business to the company you work for?

Is this the same import company that Qantas management stiffed through price fixing?

The employees of Qantas are not taking industrial action because they want to. When was the last time LAME's took significant action at Qantas? They have been pushed to the point that they have no other choice.

Oldmeadow Consulting, Geoff Dixon, and his bunch of thugs have been stealing the pay rises of Qantas employees for years and the employees have finally said ENOUGH!

By the way, why don't you answer the question?

Where do you think Qantas would be now if the APA bid had been successful?

You have an opinion on everything else, let us all hear it on this issue.

[numbskull]

Go away Frozo,

no one cares about a public servant and his text book ideology.

The LAMES actions are completely legal and for you to say that they are immoral just shows the depth of your naievety.

[Acute Instinct]

Pass-a-frozo, I may not care what it is you have to say, but what I do care for is this country and it's rights. The A in Australia was put there by our ancestors taking action, providing our standard of living by doing what we have belatedly got around to emulating. Time to pull our pants up a shout, no more! And as for your grievances due inconvenience, "you'll fly when I'm good and professionally ready", do you get it "when I say", and before you react angrily, I dutifully remind you, that's the law. Take a comfortable seat and relax, with the rest of the passengers, just wait for the message! This action will land itself! On runway 05!

[Toolpants]

PAF. It is a free market.
If you don’t like the service (QF management or lames) are giving you, take your business elsewhere. That’s your right.
That is action that is in your control.

BEST of all...It will make you feel better.
Crying about your problems on pprune will not make you feel better or solve any problems.

[The Black Panther]

Have you seen the quote by GD going back to last year. "Customers and employees do not matter, only the shareholders are important" So if you didn't realise it because you are a customer (or who you are representing) GD doesn't give a hoot. Join the queue as we try to shake the cage of CEO Buffoon of the Year.

I recall a lady ringing up John Laws late last year. She complained that she had booked a Qantas flight to Hawaii, toward the end of the booking period she was pushed by a customer service rep that she needed to pay to get her preferred seats etc. She paid the +$2500 . In less than one week Qantas advised her that the flight was now a Jetstar flight with no business class. There was no mandatory refund and if she wanted to cancel it would set her back $300 as a cancellation fee. Cheap tickets were being sold on that service for less than that.
She was given a full refund after the John Laws intervened. Sounds familiar, she wasn't a shareholder, so who cares, not GD.

GD's God is money. If you get in his road as he tries to accumulate it look out.

[Toolpants]

PAF, I have never said I don’t like my job.
I love every minute of it. Even now.
As I’ve said on a previous post,
They have to pay me loads of money if I stay, or if I’m sick or if they want me to leave. I’m happy with all options and I’m loving every minute of it.
How does the add go... "Priceless"

You (on the other hand) are not happy QF are inconveniencing you. Take you business elsewhere. Problem solved.

[amos2]

Now look, if you lot are really as serious about this as you make out to be...

why on earth don't you do something about it?

Anybody can talk the talk...

about time you blokes walked the walk!

[Wizard of Oz]

All

PAF want's it both ways ..... he wants a capitalist system where only managment and sharehoders act in their best interests ..... only workers it seems should be concerned with the inconvenience suffered by customers if workers use there LEGALLY approved means of Protected Industrial Action to advance their cause.

It isn't wrong to disrupt passengers ... Jetstar and QF management seem happy to do it every other day!!

It isn't illegal to strike ... it is protected industrial action.

And Frozo since when has "morality" had anything to do with the capitalist system of looking after ones self .... no one gets paid a "morality bonus"... just ask QF management.

Bleat over ... for now

[Wizard of Oz]

Agree AMos ....

But methinks it's not a bad strategy to have QF management running around planning around stop works that don't arise ...... wear them down real slowly ....... nothing RASH ..... all those folks (sc*bs) ON CALL will slowly get disgruntled .... all those support staff running around for nothing ..... remember it's a dish best served cold!!

[Collando]

Frozo, You say that taking PIA, ie stopwork meetings is immoral. Actualy it is quite lawful,and as such engineers are working well within the moral guidelines that this countrys laws allow. For all your distain, you have for this action you have never once offered an alternative to the PIA that will bring the company to negotiate. This management offered us 3 % 18 months ago and have refused to negotiate further hourly rate increases.(Dont want to spoil their bonuses no doubt)This is not negotiation. The offer of 1% extra super is the equivelent approx to another 1/2% (of which we wont see untill we are 65 or so.) Given that the Government has mooted the idea of raising super contributions to 10% anyway, this is something that we are likely to get down the line weather GD likes it or not.\
Hats off to the manangement for the hard ball they play,But like any good team they wont stay on the top forever. Theres always another team that will knock them off their perch just when they think they are invincible:eek:

[amos2]

"Remember it's a dish best served cold!" :(

What sort of nonsense is that?

Are you guys for real or not?

[Wizard of Oz]

Post #257 is a crock .... M&M Poposition I is a crock ..... why have all those debt laden companies been slashed and crashed in the last 6 months ........ you guessed it ... their capital structure!!

That's what QF would have been under ALLCO and friends .... a debt laden bucket unable to refinance its debt ...... really good for share price ... and ongoing surviveability ...

PAF ...... you really need to get into the real world.

[jakethemuss]

Frodo,

You have no idea what you are talking about and appear way out of your depth. I suspect you are probably still in school or should be given the response to the question about Qantas.

You are definately a troll and should be given no further fodder on this site.

Boycott PAF, he is way out of his depth in here.:=

[ejectx3]

PAF said

All I have said is this:
One post mentioned "market price" - if QF's deal was so bad you wouldn't have to worry about people taking your job.

One problem PAF. That's BS. The people who Qantas have ready to take the jobs are being offered significantly more (100k for 6 months plus 40k incentive?) what the current lads are being offered. It's just GD trying to break another union. Get your facts right fool.

[F-Class]

C’mon Pass-A-Frozo, don’t be so critical of the engineers. They haven’t caused any hardship to anyone.
There is only a ban on overtime on days off. Hasn’t even been a stopwork meeting as yet..........
The ALAEA is not what you’d call a “Militant” association. The last time there was any industrial action was in ’89, by the International LAME’s, over a safety issue. Time before that was in '77 or '78, this time the Domestic LAME’s over a superannuation issue.
There’s been a couple of stopwork meetings in the last 20 years, but we’ve always maintained a skeleton crew on to keep the place running.
No one wants to go on strike; no one I work with knows anything about strikes! It’s all new ground for us.
It’s all to do with Adequate Staffing Levels. We have been running below minimum numbers for a few years now. Even with guys in on overtime each shift, we are still below minimum.............
Now guys are getting sick of doing so much overtime, and it’s getting harder to get them to come in. April last year MEL ACS retrenched quite a number of engineers, although a lot of them are still here waiting to be let go, but cant, because we don’t have the numbers............... A few personal hardships there, as a few have sold their properties here, to retire somewhere else, and now have to find alternate accommodation.
As you can see, QE management don’t really give a stuff about their front line employees.
Management have been flogging us too hard, and for too long, and we want adequate compensation.
We are under staffed, and under resourced as well. Guys are getting sick and fatigued due to the amount of work being carried out by individuals, when we should be working as pairs due to safety issues.
Again, not enough numbers............. Personally, I’m getting sick of doing 6, 7, or 8 hours straight into a 12hr shift without having a break, especially on night shift, when we are doing our most critical work. And most nights we only have enough man hours available to carry out the overnight servicing, without getting in to the called up maintenance. Hope that’s getting done somewhere................
I wonder if the ex Ansett guys are having thoughts of Deja Vu.
We waste so many man hours each shift just towing aircraft around, because there’s not enough concrete around to park them on. The overnight aircraft usually out number the engineers on duty.

So PAF, we haven’t, and will try not to cause hardship to any one. We are just struggling to keep our part of the business viable at the moment.
Regards...............

[Sunfish]

PAF is a troll pure and simple, with an old economics 101 textbook. His arguments are rubbish although they sound impressive when he drops in the odd words like Modigliani and Miller.

For the record, PAF, we are not addressing the capital structure of Qantas, the reason the APA bid was rejected was because of the Valuation of the company.


As for your line:

* You will not win Public support with *any* kind of IA that results in a cost being realised by people who have nothing to do with your argument
* The utilitarian approach of "I don't mind if my action costs other innocent parties, so long as it costs Qantas" is immoral. Especially where you prevent others from performing the work you would (if you went on strike) refuse to do for that wage. One post mentioned "market price" - if QF's deal was so bad you wouldn't have to worry about people taking your job.
* Taking action where you partially withdraw the Labour you agreed to provide (i.e. not resigning) should be illegal and a breach of contract (4 hour stoppages or full strikes)


If you look at any transport contract in the world, whether by road, rail, ship or air, you are NOT and NEVER HAVE been guaranteed delivery of you or your goods at a particular time at a particular destination.

FURTHERMORE, QF practices yield management (or whatever it is now called) and are perfectly capable of cancelling a scheduled flight, ruining your travel plans, because it doesn't have enough Pax and rescheduling them onto another flight.

Your assertion that striking should be illegal is also nonsensical since the argument between employers and labourers is as old as the hills and the debate would simply be recast to satisfy legal restrictions, for example "going slow" is not strikiing.


Please stop putting up spurious posts that add nothing whatever to the discussion otherwise I think I'm going to call the umpire.

[upsidefront]

I have spoken to a fair lot of our brothers and sisters involved in this PIA and one thing that strikes me, is how much energy everyone has out there. We as a collective should use this to max effect. Too frequently do I read notices by our exec telling us this is OK and we can do that and so on, these people are doing a great job! However with all the bad things we have to deal with everyday, the exec's notices should be saying, "Easy people you are hurting them and be aware of this, don't do that and so on..." Why, if everyone is so disenfranchised, do we still need encouragement to take the fight to the big red Rat? Come on let's make it as hard for them as it is for us, that will bring them around to our way of thinking.

P.S. Don't feed the PAF and the likes by debating him, read his post shake your head say a few :mad: :mad: :mad: and move on, he will get bored and move to some other thread to piss people off.

[hannibal lector]

I too have spoken to many brothers out there and are becoming nervous with this situation. All is not that rosy, maybe its time for commonsense to prevail. Are we heading down a path we don't want because af 2 idealistic men ( GD and SP )???? I am in for the long haul but it may be detrimental to my future

[Toolpants]

I am in for the long haul but it may be detrimental to my future


NOT taking action NOW; will be detrimental to your future.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The current CPI figures are what...4.7%?

The CPI does not include housing, food or transport...its a Govt con job.

Real inflation probably hovers around double the CPI.

For decades management and Govt have done an impressive job at restraining wage increases (for everyone else, not themselves) to figures that are less than CPI and WAY less than real inflation.

You guys have been negotiating for 18 months now?

So, if you get this 5%, you're probably 2% behind where you were 18 mths ago just on the CPI and probably 5% worse off than you were 18 mths ago in reality.

And this has been ongoing for decades.

You guys are not fighting for a wage rise you're fighting to minimise the pay cut.

Ignore morons like PAF.:ugh:

Good luck:ok:

[DrBenway]

hello,

first time poster, long time reader.

i just felt like saying a few things as a qantas engineer;

I feel a lot of people (especially managerial desk jockeys) consider the company they work for just a stepping stone until something bigger and better comes along.

Dickson will leave after a few years with a massive payout, (weather or not the company is doing well) and he wont even care what happens to Qantas as long as he has a fat wallet to move onto the next company.

However as an engineer I feel that this is a job, and a company that I would like to work for for the rest of my life (until retirement anyway).

To say "if you dont like the working conditions then leave" is very easy, however a lot of us have seen many geoff dicksons come and go,(with various forms of success, but always with a nice payout) and probably consider Qantas is more 'our' company than any one else's as we will be here for a long time yet.

To just "pack up and go" and leave Qantas to rot would be a very hard thing to do for a lot of us, and we would rather stay here and fight for better wages and conditions, which in turn will improve the quality of the company, than take the easy way out.

I feel sorry for people who think that it is such a small thing in their lives to just switch their jobs so easily, your overall job satisfaction must be very minimal indeed, but hey, at least you get to drive around in a merc and impress your friends right?

This is not for me, we are not looking for a massive payout so we can buy a new car or apartment, we are just looking for a fair pay rise to cover the increased cost of living.

Managers come and go, but Engineering is for life.

[wanty]

See that is my real point. You feel hurt because in your opinion you have missed out. What you want to do is hurt others who have nothing to do with your beef with management.

Stoppages and strike action send people out of business. Hence a point I made earlier in thread - what expense are you happy with? 10 small businesses and their employees going out of business? 20? 30? I'd be interested to hear how much pain you are willing to inflict on others to achieve your goal? Why should they suffer that?

Not too many people in society agree with secondary boycotts. The problem with the industry you work in is that your actions cost many many people in other industries (similar effect to a secondary boycott). Hats off to Wanty for being honest saying he doesn't care if it costs. I don't agree with it but at least he's being honest that he doesn't care if the QF Brand suffers (due to the suffering of others).

Thats not entirely true,I do care for the people whose business's are affected. But Qantas are to blame for the following reason.

If Geoff had of being paying his workforce realistic wages for the last 10 years,he wouldn't have been able to "offer" freight services for example, to the public, quite so cheap and hence wouldn't have gained so much work for Qantas in the first place.

So in affect,Joe Bloggs,the man on the street, who chose Qantas to do his business with,unbeknown to him,has been getting services from Qantas on the cheap,at the expense of the workers GD has employed,all while lining his own pockets with HUGE profits.

GD and his cronies fault these businesses are hurting now.

THE BUCK STOPS WITH GEOFF

[Toolpants]

Fantastic post DrBenway.

I received that “2ue talkback radio” file from the asn today. Couldn’t we pay someone to play it through the terminals.

[Teal]

From today's crikey.com.au
Qantas trip a Fawlty Towers fever dream

Disgruntled Qantas passenger John Sneddon writes:

Last week I was prepared to give Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon the benefit of the doubt when listening to his opposition to a 5% pay rise for engineers. However having attempted to fly from Brisbane to Sydney on the 10.15am Qantas flight (QF517) on Saturday morning I am not so sure. My experience was like a Fawlty Towers fever dream. Upon arrival at the airport nice and early with 2 excited children (aged 5 and 3) in tow, my wife and I were notified our flight would be delayed 20 minutes due to the late arrival of our aircraft. Initially we didn't mind the short delay as we had the opportunity to ensure we were all seated together and calm down our excited offspring. However the delay was quickly bumped out another 20 minutes for good measure. We were then told our plane had arrived but we would be delayed another half an hour while they repaired a water leak in the luggage hold. After 30 minutes we were told we would be delayed further while they "sourced" (their word) a replacement piece of hose. We were then told Qantas needed a new plane which would arrive in 20 minutes "or so". The next announcement informed us the new aircraft would leave in 1 hour and ten minutes or "perhaps a little longer".
Passengers who had connecting international flights were understandably irate and had to deal with a cynical spokesandroid sorely lacking in PR skills (who incidentally, bore a striking resemblance to the Steve Vizard Qantas steward character -- he didn't hum the opening bars to Les Miserables, but you get the picture). My wife was informed that no refreshments would be provided to our young children, because they didn't deserve it "yet". She was urged to "Read [her] contract. We just agree to get you from A to B, not get you there on time." I must remember to look for that line in the next "I still call Australia home" advertising campaign.
When the plane finally arrived, several flights were squeezed onto the one aircraft, creating mayhem with the boarding passes. Passengers who finally got to the departure gate were sent back to the aforementioned spokesandroid to get new boarding passes; a technicality which had not occurred to management until they invited passengers to board the aircraft.
When we finally got our new boarding passes, I discovered the kids and I were seated about 20 rows from my wife, which had the potential to cause a few difficulties if one child needed the toilet mid-flight. When I pointed this out I was informed by a frustrated screen jockey there were no vacant seats around me and I would have to "deal with it". By now I regarded this inconvenience as the least of my worries, and happily agreed to do so. But once the aircraft's doors were closed I was amused to discover an empty seat right next to me which the long-suffering flight attendants permitted my wife to sit in once we were airborne. Not that we got into the skies in a hurry. We had to sit on the tarmac for another 20 minutes because (wait for it) ... they couldn't get one of the jet engines started! (I swear to God I'm not making this up) When the cabin crew announced that they needed to find some gizmo called an "air starter", the entire plane erupted in hysterical laughter. It was a touching moment. The passengers had bonded together in the face of almost comical adversity. By now we were beyond caring and actually starting to enjoy the show. The next announcement was a classic.
We were told to not worry about the smoke off the starboard bow because that was just the exhaust from the elusive "air starter" and not a sign that the plane was on fire. Even the cynical amongst us started to belly-laugh. One wit seated near me asked if we were actually bound for Yogyakarta. I know the joke was in bad taste but I guess you had to be there. Eventually the plane took off 3 hours late. You may regard this as just another whinging passenger story but it was so comical as to be a cause for concern. I heard one man complain that his earlier flight was delayed and he was bumped onto our farcical flight. So that was potentially 2 or 3 flights merged into one. I assume there is some sort of cost benefit in that, but there was no suggestion of this being shared with the frustrated passengers.
My wife also overheard the cabin staff saying rolling delays were being experienced as a result of fog at Brisbane airport, but the fog had certainly cleared when we arrived at the airport at 8.30am and we were never informed the situation was the result of bad weather. The cabin crew were understandably pleased that they only had to make 2 flights that day instead of 4. Whether the farce was caused by fog, the late arrival of our aircraft, a leaky hose, insufficient spare parts, a boarding pass stuff up, or a jet engine that wouldn’t start, remains to be seen. Perhaps it was a combination of all of these factors. The messages we received were so conflicting that I will honestly never know.
Whatever it was, it was a PR nightmare, and its timely proximity to Geoff Dixon's assertions that a 5% pay rise for engineers was something he was prepared to descend into the trenches for made the experience all the more difficult to swallow.
There was however a positive for Qantas management to consider when they review this incident (assuming they ever actually do so). The flight attendants were marvellous. The poor wretches had to handle the antagonism of frustrated passengers and present a smiling face when confronted by the prolonged and embarrassing incompetence of their employer. When the passengers laughed at Qantas, they laughed with us, and who could blame them? They handled their job with aplomb and calmed the situation down admirably.
If only the spokesandroid had been more like the cabin crew.

[numbskull]

Oh well , the shareholders should be happy that they crammed 3 flights into 1!!. Think of the cost savings.

I guess GD would ask whats the problem!!

[Galley Raider]

Speaking of GD. He was supposed to fly out this afternoon on the qf5. It was late coming out of the sheds so he changed his flight to the BA instead.
How's that for loyalty?

[blackhander]

What's GD doing leaving the country? Hasn't he got a meeting with Shazza selling 3% and super for some?

[numbskull]

Probably off to SIN to find some LAMES.

Good Luck!!

[Going Boeing]

I'd be surprised that he would go on the QF5 as it doesn't have First (P) Class. The QF31 departs 1 hour later with a 3 class configuration.

There have been quite a few services late coming out of SYD during the last week so it looks like the "overtime bans" are having an effect.

[The cougar]

Wouldn't matter which one he got on they both don't have first class.But the BA has a much better IFE.
Maybe He is going to Singapore to have a look at his burnt out A330!