Merged: Qantas Engineers Set to Strike

[sickofqf]

or maybe meet with some despots to find out how to 'off' lots of unsavoury characters without getting into trouble........

he could also be heading to a meeting with his MAS counterpart to apologise for trying to steal all their staff.....

[wanty]

From today's crikey.com.au

LOL, Just ask Geoff, he doesn't care,your only a passenger.

He is still getting his bonus.

[Short_Circuit]

From the other thread abot QANTAS
Any truth to the rumour Geoff Dixon is off to Asia to secure his new job as head of
an Asian MRO to take over Australian Engineering work with all his Inside Knowledge,
to the determent of Australian workers and conditions?
By the timing of his imminent departure from QANTAS and his so called retirement, it does
not sound so far fetched..... :=

I hope the Mr Kevin Rudd is watching this one VERY carefully.

[Bolty McBolt]

Any truth to the rumour Geoff Dixon is off to Asia to secure his new job as head of
an Asian MRO to take over Australian Engineering work with all his Inside Knowledge

As far fetched as it can get.
GD is always in Asia.

You need to be a "Bumiputra" in Malaysia to be boss of anything.

[Acute Instinct]

This time its the ABChttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/breakfast/stories/2008/2246480.htm Just hit download audio. Great Job Fed Sec

[Konehead]

First it was “the Asian financial crisis”, then came “9/11”, then it was “SARS”, and then “bird flu”. Now Qantas’ Chicken Little CEO is screaming the sky will fall in because of high oil prices. Whatever. We’ve heard it all before Geoff!

Granted, there is the usual panicked bleating in the media about high oil prices. But read a little deeper than the headlines and you’ll find these gems:

“BOEING believes oil prices will come back to a longer-term trend of $US70-80 a barrel.
The US aerospace giant does not itself analyse fuel trends but said the long-term view of its advisers was that the oil price would decrease.”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23741779-23349,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23741779-23349,00.html).
And…
“Economists, however, believe crude could soon fall back to $US100, taking pressure off petrol and aviation fuel prices.” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23744412-23349,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23744412-23349,00.html)

My point is, GD would have the best analysts in the business looking at fuel price trends, so he knows that these high oil prices are a speed hump and that they will eventually fall. He is using that knowledge and the current blip in prices to drive down wages.

A few more interesting points:

Qantas and Jetstar aircraft are flying slower to save fuel. “The unannounced moves, which follow similar actions by US airlines, are expected to save the carriers millions of dollars and reduce upward pressure on airfares… We have been conducting a trial where aircraft flights are taking a bit longer and burning less fuel. Early indications are that we are seeing positive savings in terms of fuel… This practice has led to fuel savings and lower carbon emissions without any significant impact on flight times." http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23744412-23349,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23744412-23349,00.html). Once those procedures are locked in, does anyone sane think a company would willingly relinquish those savings? And does a passenger really care if it takes 6 minutes longer to get to Perth. Indeed, it could be a selling point if QF badges it as “a green-house gas reduction measure”.
Qantas is increasing airfares. I quote an article in today’s Australian Business Backpage entitled “Dixon may be lucky buyout failed”: “The oil prices might be higher but so are airfares… so long as Dixon can get people paying higher fares and keep travelling, he is fine.” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html). (This is a very interesting article and I urge everyone to read it in its entirety. I have quoted from it further below.)
We are experiencing massive growth in air travel in the Asia Pacific region. Higher airfares may cut a few percentage points off this growth, but so what. There is that much growth in the pipeline that airlines simply can’t keep up. Not in capacity, nor pilots nor engineers. This growth will more than compensate for any drop-offs in demand from the US slowdown/recession. And keep in mind that the US is still an economic behemoth, so there will always be demand to a greater or lesser extent for air travel from that market.
The $200 million compensation from Airbus for A380 delays, and Qantas’ own forecast that compensation from Boeing for the B787 delays will be greater than that of the Airbus compensation; http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23741631-23349,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23741631-23349,00.html).
The possible sale of 40% of the Frequent Flyers program: another $1 billion. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html).
Qantas breaking into the next emerging market: Vietnam/South East Asia with its stake in Pacific Airlines.We all know Qantas is investing in increased capacity. With increased capacity comes the ability to fly slower and save fuel. New aircraft with lower maintenance requirements will provide savings per aircraft once the older fleet start getting retired. Also, the airlines are working with Air Services Australia, the EU, the FAA etc to streamline flying routes to save fuel. And AA is joining UAL to charge pax for baggage. How long before other airlines including QF follow their lead?

Airfares have been jacked up in Aus, as they have in the US. Chicken Little is also pointing to the US airline industry as a warning to us all. Job losses, mergers, bankruptcies, capacity cuts. But there are big differences between the US and Australia and their respective airlines:

The US is heading for or in recession.
The US airline industry is a bloated dead man walking. It needs structural adjustment to survive. So many of the airlines are flogging a dead horse by persisting with flying non-profitable routes with thirsty, expensive older aircraft. Change, downsizing etc is inevitable. Contrast this with Australia and Qantas.

We are ideally positioned to cash in on the new driver of the world economy, the Asia-Pacific region. Boeing says that 90% of its aircraft sales are to this region. Clearly, it’s where the growth is! The US is losing its position as the sole engine of the world’s economy.
QF “going forward” will be flying fuel-efficient aircraft types. QF has made the biggest order of B787s, after all!
QF has Jetstar to pick up lower profit routes.If, worst case, Qantas has to cut capacity well, OK, is that such a bad thing? “American Airlines has cut its by 12 per cent and the US industry association forecasts 20 per cent cuts across the industry. Given his domestic dominance, Dixon, in theory, has this angle covered as well, because his fleet is varied in age, which means much of it is completely written down in value. This makes it easy for him to shut down capacity by as much as 14 per cent without costing a cent. Then, of course, he has a low-cost carrier in Jetstar to pick up marginal routes.” http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html).

Well how many times has GD said he is angling for capacity growth, not reduction? Orders for 65 B787s,12 A380s, umpteen A320s/A321s and more B737-800s to come.
And as you can imagine, like trying to claw back interest rate falls from the banks once they start falling, once airfares go up, they’ll probably stay up. The world airline industry will want to recoup some of those profits lost to high oil prices, so Qantas will benefit from that aspect of “competition”.

My point: all these factors will help pad Qantas’ bottom line. Both lots of compensation from Airbus and Boeing alone could pay for a 5% pay rise for ALL Qantas staff over the next few years and still leave the company with tens of millions in change. In a few years time, the US will be out of recession and helping drive the world economy; India, China, indeed the whole region will still be booming; our new fleet will be operating very efficiently both in terms of reduced maintenance costs per airframe and fuel, and things will be on the up and up for Qantas.

Has anyone heard QF announce forecast profit falls lately? Exactly. The silence is deafening.

And MY bottom line? I think QF can afford 5% for everyone, not just us.

[Sunfish]

Nice post Konehead.

I was always taught by accountants that when your business is making money hand over fist, you shut up about it and whine about taxes and suchlike.

The farmers have got this down to an art form over the years, and Mr. Dixon appears to have learned well from them.


...If it rains: "we can't get into the paddocks" and "All the long grass means an increased bushfire risk."

...If it doesn't rain: obvious.

...If meat or wool prices go through the roof: "we can't afford to restock."

...If grain prices go through the roof: "Too many people will plant next year and we will have a glut of grain and rotten prices."

That's right Mr. Dixon, whine with the rest of them.

[Sweet Reason]

We hear that the ACTU are going to "fix" it for you - good luck!:ugh:

[amos2]

You lot have gone to water, just like the balpa pilots!

You're wimps, like they are!

[jakethemuss]

Friday night.

Here come the drunks again with their bravado!:E

Started early today amos.

[Point0Five]

I must admit, this stike has nearly brought the nation to its knees. Does anybody remember the actors strike from the early nineties? No episodes of "Fire", that sort of thing... I don't really think that the public cares.

[breakfastburrito]

Konehead good post, I just want to highlight something from the Australian article (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23743151-5013408,00.html)
THIS time last year, Qantas boss Geoff Dixon was still recovering from the bitter disappointment of having his management buyout at $5.45 a share rejected.

In case you didn't catch it the first time:
"bitter disappointment of having his management buyout"

Now the dirty little secret is of who he has really been working for is revealed for all to see, and openly canvassed by journalists.

[rudderless1]

POF,what strike? Have we had one yet?
Wait til we do.:E

[dr skydrol]

i think our best stategy if the ACTU has no effect is to wait,stick with our OT bans (they are working great) then when the TWU and AMWU EBA's run out we all have rolling 4 hour stoppages 1 after the other every day. What a sight that would be.

[Capt Wally]

.....bugga the thread has gone all quiet, just when I'm allowed back after the nazi's sin binned me to:{
I'm still hoping for a miracle for the engineers, maybe a certain CEO will find God!:) Then again I didn't believe in that guy who walked on water either!:E

CW

[Bolty McBolt]

i think our best stategy if the ACTU has no effect is to wait,stick with our OT bans (they are working great) then when the TWU and AMWU EBA's run out we all have rolling 4 hour stoppages 1 after the other every day. What a sight that would be.

Not sure which unions but I beleive that 2 EBAs end in June. Pilots Short haul? JPC ? TWU?
Can anyone shed any light?
Will be interesting to see if the company has the LAME EBA wrapped up before the others come due.

I doubt the company has the infastructure or the people to fight more than one battle at a time.

[Short_Circuit]

PS

2 DMM at SYD Base ACS have pledged allegiance with Strike Breaker Force 1.

Crush Those Young LAME's. they said, :oh:

Credibility, goooooone.. :=

Do you want to play a game (Dr Falcon)?

Oh, Yes Please!

GlobalThermonuclear War?

No, EBA VIII ... !!!

[Rak-a-san]

shame those DMM's , hav already forgotten where they came from...... tut tut tut.:=

oneday they might want support for something and they themselves might get crushed .............. not necessarily from younger LAME's either. Engineers have long memories

[Nepotisim]

Nice post from the blue fluid. I would hate for any young LAMES to be crushed. I expected better from at least one of the DMMs. The younger of the two has been walking over people for years.

[Rak-a-san]

Hey nepotism, I have an idea, put those 2 DMM's in for an excell award after the stop work meeting, at least that way us interstaties will get to their faces in the next issue of ETOM's just in case they ask me for a favour in the future ......... like I said tut tut tut

[2p!ssed2drive]

Just been watching the updates on the news... causing a few headaches out of sydney. brissy and melbourne to follow!

[Capt Wally]

CONGRATS TO THE ENGINEERS, for having the balls to do it.:D:D
You guys maybe the new leaders in the struggle to get fair pay.



CW

[Shed Dog Tosser]

WELL DONE !!!! for standing your ground.

GD has just been on the radio stating he will not negotiate, you make him eat those words, keep the rolling stopages going, no over time etc etc.

Again, WELL DONE !!!.

[sickofqf]

Thanks for the support.

Just be very wary of the 'replacements' when they arrive in your cockpits, most haven't seen an aircraft in over a decade and are VERY rusty. Not to mention dubiously still licensed........I'd like the ATSB to look into that farce!!!

We'll Fight the good, and FAIR, fight and you lot keep cheering for the right team and we'll all achieve victory of Darth Dixon the Deluded

[crocodile redundee]

I noticed on the weekend those same old tired job ads placed in the Herald by Domain agency. Surely this whole QF intimidatory effort must fall into the anti-discrimination act somewhere. As an ex QF LAME of many years ago I congratulate the current pay starved men on their campaign & wish them well in their efforts to obtain proper pay levels that have been eroded over many years. I have sold my QF shares in protest, the QF management must hang their heads in shame in not negotiating a decent remuneration for their LAMES.

[QFinsider]

457 visas one day, promotion lists tallying up half the seniority list.... "the sky is falling" the next.

How does Scrotum have any credibility he changes quicker than the wind...?


Stay protected and keep irritating him....

[Short_Circuit]

Keep up the pressure.
World oil prices peaked and poised to fall.
There will be no sympathy for old geoff then.:\

[SCHAIRBUS]

Hold item lists are going up faster then GDs bank balance keep up the good work guys.:ok:

As for the scabs enjoy the last time you work in this industry no one will want to know you after this.:=

[obie2]

The world is full of scabs mate!

We all know them and we all work with them.

And so will you!

That's life, get used to it, don't live in a dream world!

[the dog74]

I'm not one to wish the worst upon anyone for decissions they make even if they know what they are doing is wrong towards others.
If you want to work at Qantas during these stopages that if fine,good for you.You may have to pay some really urget bills or perhaps put your kids through school maybe even afford the mortgage repayments or put petrol in the car and i like most understand what you are going through.

However so do I.

You want to be a real human being? break your contract! tell those who use you as a pawn, NO I will not hurt those who stand up for what is fair and just.
Remember KARMA can be swift.It may be you next time.

[blackhander]

Hope you sold at $6.03 (this years high) croc not at $3.40 something (this week).

[Capt Wally]

Does "Dath" (GD) look a sickly sight to anyone? He sure is looking very aged. Am sure his health is suffering. He won't be around 4ever in more ways than one, keep the pressure up & he may just blow a gasket!


CW

[Short_Circuit]

On TV last night he was a very old man. :ooh:

Wiping his hanging head. :(

Hanging in shame no doubt. :\

Move on old boy, you have lost it. :{

[The Black Panther]

I agree. My Mum even gave me a call and said "Son, that Dixon character looks like he is under a lot of pressure and he is looking very ill within."

Mum's know best I say.

[Capt Wally]

Fortunetly PAF yr thoughts are in the minority, phew

The man they really hate as you say IS showing signs of pressure & if it takes a zillion stop work meetings to bring him down then that's what must be done & I support them as almost everyone else in here does. This country didn't get where it is today enjoying what's left of a hard fought battle the likes of the Eureka Stockade by thinking along the lines of you !:bored: The real criminals are the blood sucking leaches of this society who want their cake & eat it too!


CW

[mister hilter]

I'm just guessing PAF that you were around in '89. No prizes for guessing which side you were on then

[Sunfish]

PAF:

You may not like the conditions you work under, however punishing random people in society (in an attempt to punish your CEO) should really be criminal.

PAF , Piss off and go bomb some women and children.

There's a good chap.

[numbskull]

PAF- people are logging on to these threads to get an update on the latest info regarding the LAMES dispute.

We are not interested in the ideological rantings of a naive and underworked public servant who hijacks the thread with no knowledge of what he's talking about.

People are putting 10,20, 30 yr careers and their families livlihood on the line to stand up for something they believe in. Stop trying to bait them with your ill informed dribble.

What they're doing is completely legal. If you think it should be criminal go and live in Zimbabwe, China, Burma or any other autocratic despotic regime that you choose.

BUT JUST GO AWAY!!

[AlanShore]

Sorry Frozo. Ex military myself. You'd better get up earlier to insult me.

[the dog74]

PAF- who is using the family brain cell today? Dickson also does not care about the flying public. In a recorded statement yesterday he stated that if the public have to suffer delay's then so be it. He will do whatever it takes to defeat the engineers...................oh but wait now the long haul pilots and short haul crews EBA's are up too, getting a lot harder now for him.
So piss off you dick with ears and let the people who care have a say!!!:mad:

[AEROMEDIC]

PAF has forgotten to take his medication. Please excuse him.

:eek: :uhoh:

[max1]

PAF,
I'm still attempting to get you to answer what would be your advice to the Founding Fathers of the largest capitalist economy in the world in the 1770s when they had had it up to here with their masters and decided that they wouldn't take it anymore

[the dog74]

MAX1 I can answer on behalf of PAF he would say bend over and use no lube.

[upsidefront]

Hi PAF

I PMed this to you to be sure you read it. It is also posted for all to see so that you can not cry foul and say you are being attacked personally.

It is clear from your posts that you are (used to be?) a military aviator of some sorts. I salute, applaud and thank all military types out there for putting their lives on the line to make this country safe.

It takes a special kind of person to fly a fast jet in a "hot zone", knowing there are numerous people on the ground and in the air with missiles aimed at your jet pipes. Whether you fly fast jets, helicopters or transport does not matter, the risks are the same. The reason why it seems to work is that the military is based on a culture of "SIR YES SIR" and whatever the highest ranking officer said goes, no questions asked. If you wish to not comply there are ways and means of dealing with that ie. court marshall and so on. The military is no place for the individual and thats why it runs like clockwork.

I can therefore understand that it must be hard for you to look at the Q and see that it does not operate like clockwork. In fact it looks like chaos most days. From the posts I have made, you can clearly see that I am a militant unionist and I know that it is at odds with your point of view. I will be the first to admit that the union protects the weak and holds back the strong. It does however also give a voice to the small people out there so that big corporations can't just walk over them.

There's a thread running on pprune about RAAF pilots leaving at the moment. I think these people are voting with their feet as you suggested, if you don't like the conditions. There are many pilots left, I am sure, who like flying fast jets that much, that they stick around and eat the crappy conditions with a hope of these improving some time.

Now, many of the LAME's I know, myself included, thrive on the challenge of seeing a jumbo bucket of bolts arrive at the gate with numerous defects. We enjoy the challenge of applying our knowledge and skill to see the bird flying again and on time. We enjoy it that much that we are sticking it out in the hope that the conditions improve. More than waiting we are doing something about it. I know you do not agree with our actions but you don't have to.

This thread is a discussion/info forum for the Q LAME EBA. You do not have to agree with the views and you are entitled to your own (opposing) view. This thread is not about whether we are right or wrong and therefore you can not change the LAME's point of view.

I ask that next time you post you bear this in mind. I will not try to tell you how the military is run or should run. (I have no idea and don't care) I ask you to please not tell us that our actions should be criminal and so on. We are dealing with our issues the way we we see fit. It is still legal for us to do so.

You will have the opportunity to say "Told you so" when it all goes south. I hope the LAME's don't say it when they win.

Stand strong LAME

[Ngineer]

I've just logged in to see if anything interesting has happened today in the Qantas network, and all I am reading is PAF this and PAF that, then some snipes at the health of our CEO.
Guys, please see the writing at the bottom of this page (in red ink) and remember that those standing on the outside looking in maybe forming an opinion based on our integrity. I am sure that during these negotiations, there will be others deliberately trying to bring the worst out in us.
Although we are obviously in disagreement with our CEO and some of his personal issues, I would more than welcome him if he did come round and decide to work with the QF workforce for a more happier and productive work environment.
But until then, in the words of the Fed Sec, I wish him well in his retirement next year, and may the best man win!

[wanty]

You know what stands out to me and others now most of all.

During the stop work meetings,management had some of thier own "SCAB MANAGEMENT" leave thier current posts to attempt to fill the positions of LAMES to keep limited operations.

Who was doing thier normal jobs in this time. NO ONE.

This tells me that an airline can easily get by with out MANAGERS but it CAN'T get by without LAMES.

Now who really contributes the most to the smooth running of this company.

Work that one out.

[Capt Wally]

PAF nobody in here is expecting the flying public to be going along with what the engineers are trying to do. Of course they will be p*ssed off 'cause of the strikes, so is everyone else when the petrol tanker drivers used to strike, the brewery went on strike but they got what they where fighting for beacause they where left no alternative & we still survived the dissruption of their actions. The flying public only see/hear GD not the engineers, their too busy working for a bowl of rice, it's the head fool that's out front getting all the attention & sympathy from the public.
As usual pretty much all the posts here believe yr in the minority, I think yr fighting a loosing battle, only hope yr not sent to the front, then again we can only hope I guess:E!


CW

[rudderless1]

PAF maybe one of those that gets accidentally shot by his own side!:sad:

[PIOT Bord]

“To date, we have not experienced any significant issues as a result of the union’s overtime bans,” (Dixon. smh.com.au 28May08)

Spare a thought for the Qantas Engineers in Perth, they have had a very busy day trying to cope with those insignificant issues that Geoff was talking about. Qantas Domestic departures over the entire day averaged 1 hour 21 min late. That does not include the 4 cancelled flights.

To you, Geoff, this is of no concern because you were not inconvenienced, only Qantas passengers. Unfortunately for them, they could not dump Qantas to catch a British Airways flight like you did. What was your quote again Geoff? Something like 'I don't care if passengers get disrupted, I'm not giving the engineers anything'.

Your leadership is on display, it's not a pretty sight!

[Anulus Filler]

PIOT BORD

Spare a thought for the Qantas Engineers in Perth, they have had a very busy day trying to cope with those insignificant issues that Geoff was talking about. Qantas Domestic departures over the entire day averaged 1 hour 21 min late. That does not include the 4 cancelled flights.

They're still bitter and twisted over the 8hr debacle... More to come I guess:ok:

[rmcdonal]

PAF maybe one of those that gets accidentally shot by his own side! Thats not funny. Somethings are best not said. :oh::suspect:

[HotDog]

Unfortunately, that is an aussie trait. If you don't agree with the mob, put the boot in and kick him in the head!:(

[Konehead]

Sad but true, Some also call it "egalitarianism, which many think has made us the country we are today.

Now, when someone makes the following statement:

You may not like the conditions you work under, however punishing random people in society (in an attempt to punish your CEO) should really be criminal.

...it cannot be left unchallenged. So should it be criminal to refuse to voluntarily work on your days off? PAF, what kind of country do you want to live in exactly? Tsarist Russia? Pre-Civil War USA? We are not serfs or slaves to be horsewhipped if we don't work more than we agreed to in our contract of employment.

PAF, you're air force. Thank you for defending my right to free speech and the laws of our land, under which thankfully, we can both say as we please within reason and I can refuse to work on my days off and not be a criminal.

While I may disagree with your sentiments I do not think you should be cast as a criminal for expressing them. I would request the same from you.

[Konehead]

Silence was the stern reply...

[obie2]

We're not exactly hanging on to every word you utter, mate!

[hannibal lector]

This thread is going nowhere. Shut it down:ugh:

[Ultralights]

the ONLY way you will get any more than 3% is you all walk for good. the company knows that will never happen.

[Capt Wally]

'ultralights' sadly it's shaping up to be that way. But if they (engineers ) all walked for good that might very well do the trick but the aftermath of it would have lingering effects for many years to come. (see WW3 aca 1989).


CW

[employes perspective]

no need to walk for good ,it looks like the OT bans are already starting to bite hard,give it a few more weeks,then a 2day stoppage should just about do it:ok:

[Snollygoster]

no need to walk for good ,it looks like the OT bans are already starting to bite hard,give it a few more weeks,then a 2day stoppage should just about do it


You know the old saying boys - "Dreams are Free"::rolleyes:

[wanty]

Keep up the overtime bans indefinately until Dicko is ousted by the rest of the board. All we want is whats fair Geoff. 3% is below inflation.

:ugh:..QF DAY 1
:ugh:...QF DAY 2
:ugh:....QF DAY 3
:ugh:.....QF DAY 4
:ugh:......QF DAY 5
:ugh:.......QF DAY 6
:ugh:........QF DAY 7
:ugh:.........QF DAY 8
:ugh:..........QF DAY 9
:ugh:...........QF DAY 10

....... = Delays

Notice a pattern here Geoff, the red stonewall is QF engineers. Every aircraft you try and get passed us just gets blocked by defect after defect. God bless the "PPM"

Oh yeah, in case you didn't work it out,notice the delays getting longer and longer and longer. :ok:

PS

:ugh:....................................................... ..................................QF

CITY HOTELS RUBBING THIER HANDS $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

:=

[rmcdonal]

PAF how do you propose Qs Engineers solve their pay and condition issue then?

From what I can see negotiations with the company are at a standstill as Q does not wish to pay more then 3%, and the engineers want more (fair call from my perspective). They have given Q plenty of warning that the stop work and lack of overtime where going to happen and yet Q did nothing. As far as inconveniencing the public, the public have been condoning the underpayment of engineers by purchasing Q tickets. It is now biting them back and if they have issues with this then they should be prepared to pay more for their tickets to cover the TRUE cost of flying in safe and well maintained aircraft.
As far as being illegal it is up to the government of the time to set the law, and they have set out that these stop work meetings are legal.

[rmcdonal]

If all the engineers quit for greener pastures then I think you would find that the effect would be slightly more inconvenient for the public then just striking. The last time the aviation group had a mass walk out the government was called into fix the problem…. You never know PAF, you may get called into work on the Qs aircraft to keep the country running. :eek:

[Ultralights]

so where does the delays caused by lack of staff come into the "i dont condone action that effects the traveling public" equation?

its not ok for striking staff to cause inconvenience, but its perfectly fine for management and execs to cause inconvenience through delays caused by no investment in equipment, maint or staff?

[Short_Circuit]

Ultralights, you have summed the situation up very short & to the point.

For the past 5 years the public have been increasingly inconvenienced

by poor & worsening departure times, delays and cancellation even though

there has been unlimited amounts of overtime & people there working it.

It has not been created by LAMEs but by the company, it is just worse

now because we have burned out by over working but enough is enough.

If QF wants us to go back to doing ridiculous amounts of overtime they

had better reward us with some of the spoils we have made for the

company ie 5%. It has not been made for the GREEDY few at the top. It is

to share amoung ALL the staff that make it happen (and I mean not just LAMEs)

[Sunfish]

PAF continues to produce exactly the same flawed argument over and over again:

My problem is the ethics behind the decision to harm the general public by the Engineer's union. I have a problem with how you are dealing with your problem!

You may make arguments that management have done the wrong thing by you, but an ethical decision making process doesn't support your decision to harm others in your attempt to harm management.

You always conveniently forget to reverse your own argument and apply/impose the same requirements on management that you prescribe for unions..

The Management of Qantas has no compunction whatsoever about "harming the General Public", whether by industrial dispute or normal operational practice. Nor do they engage in the "ethical decision making practice" you wish to foist on Unions.

Qantas, even without industrial action, cancels flights at will "harming the general public" in the process. In fact CASA neatly sidestepped one of the requirements of an RPT licence for both Ansett and Qantas around 1979 - by specifically allowing "yield management" (cancellation of under loaded flights), which in theory is not allowed by the terms of the licence which requires airlines to operate to schedule.

You even have the CEO of Qantas, Geoff Dixon, reiterating that his one duty is to Qantas Shareholders, no mention of a duty to the general public there.

Qantas saw this dispute coming. They were warned, they were pleaded with, yet they still did nothing to avoid it, even foregoing the opportunity of further meetings and negotiations. They have deliberately and coldly f**ed the LAMES around for Eighteen months. That's not "ethical" under your prescription.

As for your nonsensical suggestion that people just walk and find a new job, that's just stupid in the short term. In economic terms its a lose/lose situation. Qantas has to incur costs for recruitment, selection and training, then incurs further costs as its new staff start at the top of "the learning curve" and have to work their way down to reach peak efficiency (you are aware of learning curves I take it?). Similar costs obtain for the employee who leaves.

The obvious solution then, in Frozo land, since no one wants the public to be harmed by strike action and mass resignations are damaging to both company and employee, is to appoint an independent arbitrator whose decisions are binding on all parties.............


.....Oh wait! ..........We had that!

[Anulus Filler]

Well said Sunfish...Another top post which is the balanced truth.:ok:

[Konehead]

Find a better paying job. Apparently there is a skills crisis? In this thread people have argued that that QF engineer's are poorly paid and ill-treated. If that's the case then apply for jobs in other companies. If you don't wish to change companies or work locations then you have made a financial decision not to do so. QANTAS are not a monopsony.

I dont want to leave QF. I am proud of it's history and the part Engineering has played in it. The current situation is temporary, so is the management regime. They are both in stark contrast to anything I have seen in my almost two decades of service. I'm going to hang in there in the knowledge that the current crop of managers are on borrowed time and the perhaps vain hope that things improve. If they don't then I know it's time to move on. You'll be the first person I tell "You were right, I shoulda left long ago".
Further, I want what I was promised. Simple. That is, to be "looked after when times are good" in return for the sacrifices - both financial and non-financial - I made for QF.

I agree, it is unfortunate that a four hour stop work meeting will inconvenience passengers. But please keep in mind that we offered to have a one hour information meeting with skeleton crews to maintain the operation. GD refused. Does that refusal constitute the legal obligation to negotiate in good faith? Is that showing goodwill to the passengers? Granted, innocents will suffer. C'est la guerre. Collateral damage is a fact of life. But we didn't trigger the 4 hour stop work meeting. And as GD says, the disruptions were minimal because we gave three days notice. The schedule was amended as necessary to produce the minimal delays. The real delays are being caused by a lack of manpower.

I know what you're thinking: "why did you need an information meeting? Wont emailed notices suffice?" Well, I guess you had to be at the meeting to understand the importance of dialogue.

[Pappa Smurf]

In reality ,the majority of Mr Joe Publics wouldnt even know whats going on apart from reading odd bits that flights are delayed because of engineers wanting a pay rise---events that always look bad for unions.

Maybe a bit costly ,but why not put half page adds in the major newspapers,explaining the reasons for actions.
excellent safety record due to a qualified team of workers
offshore work coming back faulty
Dixons record bonuses ,pay rises etc
the 3% offer behind inflation.
Qantas,s record profits
The threat of bringing scabs in at much higher rates of pay
etc,etc,etc

"are we really inconsiderate to keep you flying safely"

[another superlame]

P-A-F
I have read your posts for a while now and all I can say is that you are an ill advised MORON. Until this EBA affects you and your family personally pull your head in, you seem to be the lowest common denominator.

[SCHAIRBUS]

The wheels are starting to fall off, there's talk of heavy maint work work being pushed back so that MEL items can be cleared to keep planes flying, also a 767 is being grounded tonight in MDT due to too many MELs don't think it will be flying for awhile.
All non essential work is being pushed back but there are some A cks looming so they are running out of options.:{

[chockchucker]

Don't forget, Fog forecast for Melbourne again tomorrow. :ok:

[indamiddle]

pappa smurf, if they do adds don't forget to include that about 5 years ago we didn't get an annual pay rise to help out the company due to bird flu, sars, terrorism etc etc etc

[cartexchange]

3 Jun 2008
QF 566

PER
Depart: 4:15 PM
Delayed: 9:40 PM

SYD
Arrive: 10:15 PM
Delayed: 3:25 AM
Gate: T3

[cartexchange]

they must have, that is what the web site stated. I pasted the information direct from flight stats.

here you go

http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlight.do;jsessionid=AC68DE6BB7B9D5E088146F282 29A0EAA.ned:8012?airline=%28QF%29+Qantas+Airways&flightNumber=566&departureDate=2008-06-03&x=14&y=14

[FlexibleResponse]

`softly softly catchee monkey'...

[zoics88]

QF21 YSSY-RJAA cancelled tonight due tech problem, knocked back on dispensation and PAX unloaded at 2330'ish.

another storming of QANTAS club?