UK Stars and Sids

[ollycopter]

Hi All,

Can someone explain why the Stars in the UK are overly complicated? I mean, with places like Vienna and Munich (for example) having fantastically basic RNAV arrivals that make everyone's life easier, why the UK is not following suite? Why is it everytime we depart somewhere in the UK, rather then get on with the Star we get a heading?? Everytime.. We even get put onto heading which keeps us on the star.. Am sure there is a logical explanation but "because we have been doing it for so long" is a cop out.
:=
Copta

[VectorLine]

I'm not surprised you're confused if you're trying to follow a STAR on departure. :}

[Defruiter]

There is a possibility that aircraft on SIDs/STARs could come into conflict with each other or other aircraft within the TMA. Two aircraft that are locked on suitable headings should never come into confliction - As simple as that.

You depart Heathrow for example, on a DVR departure. If you don't want to get higher than 6000ft, then by all means, remain on the SID. If you want to get higher, which I'm sure you would like, expect to be turned off the SID (The DVR SID tracks underneath the BIG stack - If that's full, you wont be going any higher)

The airspace in the UK, the London TMA especially, is incredibly congested. You should try to organise a visit to the UK area units then you can see first hand, the problems that can be experienced. I am sure you would get a lot out of a visit :)

[Defruiter]

And to add, you may be locked on a heading but appear to be tracking the SID/STAR anyway - Aircraft on own navigation can deviate from the SID/STAR (I have seen it) whereas, when locked on a heading, they can't (or shouldn't). If someone is being climbed through your level 3nm (or perhaps sometimes further) offset from the SID/STAR track, expect to be locked on a heading so that this can be done. (Aircraft can wander off... ;))

Cheers,

DF

[ollycopter]

Damit, how did I miss that... :O Having said that there is hardly a difference between the two.. As I said, you get a heading after T/O anyway..:rolleyes:

[ollycopter]

I have been put on a heading out of luton numerous times and not been allowed to climb until we get to DVR, at least not been allowed a significant climb. I know the airspace is congested, but if the stars and Sids were in the form of the ones in Munch, Frankfurt, Vienna etc they would not have this problem... Or am I missing something??

[ollycopter]

I have to say, if you are saying that two aircraft on Sids and Stars could come into conflict within the TMA then is that not making the point that the Sids and Stars are rather poorly thought out??

[coracle]

You get put on a heading when flying on a DVR out of Luton so that we can get the London City inbound through your level and down to altitudes and/or to parallel you off with the Stansted DVR departure which always seems to get airborne at the wrong time. You then get climbed to "Min Stack" which is FL70 or 80 depending on the pressure.

As I'm sure you are aware, the Luton DVR SID takes you underneath the LAM holding area for Heathrow which is the busiest for Heathrow which is why you don't get climbed above FL70 (or 80) until I suggest DET not DVR.

[transsonic2]

I was hardly ever put on a heading inbound or outbound Paris. You´re expected to strictly follow STARS and SIDS and you´re almost always requested to follow the altitude restrictions published on the plates. STARS and SIDS seem to be perfectly synchronized among each other and as a result there is 50% less noise on the radio.
It´s true that traffic over London is dense but it´s hard to imagine that the way it is currently handled is the best one.

[cossack]

"Tunnels in the sky" anyone?:E

[nzav8tor]

Without being on the otherside of the scope its hard to make to much comment but it does get frustrating being vectored on your track heading for 5 mins then told to resume on nav to the point you were going to anyway.

Or when making first contact with London on arrival across the channel you are instantly told to fly a heading, then turn right 5 degs or something.
This just doesn't happen anywhere else around europe.

If an aircraft is supposed to be flying LNAV and it deviates from track then that is a pretty serious equipment or crew error which should be reported.
But the majority of other european controllers have sufficient faith in our on board equipment to let us fly the SID or STAR ourselves.

Also, this step climb business has always created confusion and I still have to check two or three times to make sure I've spotted the correct initial altitude.
Most clearances on the continent are issued "... Fly PZR3B departure, 5000 feet, sq 6969, QNH 1013"
And it states clearly on the chart above the written instuctions of the SID the initial altitude.

The UK SID's have that many cross this point at this height but not below that one or only here at this height and so on that its any wonder there are level busts and traffic conflicts.

I appreciate its a tough job to manage the traffic in the airspace but I agree that it seems that ATC makes more work for themselves and the pilots by taking on too much responsibility and not having clearly defined and seperated SID's and STARS.

I'd be happy to get airborne, blast off to the west, climb up to FL150 or more then head east over the top of it all. Inbound traffic is that low that early that surely thats feasible.

8tor

[Medway Control]

ladies and gents, I really think you should come to LTCC for a visit on your next days off... We'd love to show you some of the reasons why you are put on heading in the TMA... Suffice to say, we'd love to leave you on your own navigation, it would be so much easier for us. And if you fly around the TMA at quieter times, you will be left on your own nav... But between 6am and 10pm, headings are our bread and butter... Headings mean expedition... Simple as that! No heading equals step climbs.. And we hate a step climb as much as you...

The main reason is congestion... Name another TMA that has 9 major airfields within 50 miles of each other... Name another TMA that has 15ish major airfields with 100 miles of Heathrow... This equals congestion...

Take one VOR in the london tma... Brookmans Park. All of you regular London flyers know and love the park... But do you realise how many aircraft actually fly around BPK... Here's a short list (forgive me if I've forgotten any, there are quite a few)

EGLL BPK depts
EGGW DVR and CLN depts
EGLC/EGKB BPK and CPT departures
EGMC BPK and CPT departures
On easterlies EGLL Buzad Departures (within 3 miles of BPK)
EGLL arrivals (within 3 miles of BPK)
EGSS/EGGW/EGSC/EGTC Arrivals through lorel
EGLC/EGKB/EGMC Arrivals from the north
EGWU CLN/DVR departures
Leavers from CAS to airfields below the tma
Overflights below fl120 travelling anywhere beyond the london tma
EGKK Lam Departures

So at BPK at any one time, there can be a plane at 3A, 4A, 5A, 6A, Min stack, and any of the levels above...So how we are meant to seperate all of these without radar headings, you tell me. In fact, dont tell me, tell NATS operations, because they can't answer that question, and they are air traffic experts... The way it is handled now isn't perfect, but its tried and tested, and works well! We shift a lot of planes, with very little space to do so, and i think we do it pretty well lol!!

As for luton DVR departures, well they are probably the worst SID in the TMA. Mainly because we cant get you major climb until DET... The lambourne stack for heathrow (the busiest stack in europe) is your main problem... If there is nothing in lambourne, very often we will have you at FL240 by DET, but if lambourne is full, Min stack is the most you can hope for!

Oh and olly, the sids and stars are seperated, all of the departures above are seperated for radio fail procedures... But the minute we climb you above the sid levels, seperation is no longer ensured... So heading make that seperation happen...

I liked someones idea of climbing west from Luton and then going east... But if you wanna know what traffic is west from luton, there is another long long list of sids to miss...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Medway Control. An very sensible response if I may say so.

[Medway Control]

I aim to please... Thanks HD

[bookworm]

The daftest thing about UK STARs is the naming. Everyone else manages to find the starting point of the STAR and name the STAR after that, but we can only look as far as the hold at which it terminates.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Fly PZR3B departure, 5000 feet, sq 6969, QNH 1013

They must have very special transponders in Europe ;)

[Radarspod]

damn right, these transponders would do away with the Mode A codes shortage overnight! Where can I get some?

[Defruiter]

Thanks Medway - I was hoping someone from the area side would come along and add something :)

[Denti]

You can't compare London to Frankfurt or Vienna. London has more active airports nearby than the other two.

And to be honest, as a pilot i don't mind vectors one bit since it transfers the whole responsibility of staying where i should stay to the controller. If something goes pearshaped i can blame him and be done with it, whereas otherwise it is my responsibility if i follow a SID/STAR or not.

Sure, it is sometimes weird when you do a stansted glasgow flight without using your on board equipment except for the first 5 seconds in the air and the ILS because your on vectors the whole flight, but thats just the UK way of doing ATC, not a real biggie in my opinion, especially in view of the very high professionalism of the ATC system.

[Funnel Cloud]

but it does get frustrating being vectored on your track heading for 5 mins then told to resume on nav to the point you were going to anyway.


Why is that so frustrating. I operate in the London TMA every day (maybe I'm just used to it), but all you do is press the 'HDG SELECT' button and just follow ATC headings. Life can't be much simpler than that?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Denti and Funnel Cloud.... Breaths of fresh air after some of the comments on here. Thanks. If you guys were around when I was still working I'm sure we got on famously.

[bookworm]

Sure, it is sometimes weird when you do a stansted glasgow flight without using your on board equipment except for the first 5 seconds in the air and the ILS because your on vectors the whole flight, but thats just the UK way of doing ATC, not a real biggie in my opinion, especially in view of the very high professionalism of the ATC system.

When I first started flying I thought it was obvious that ATC would want me on my own navigation using navaids rather than having the trouble of issuing headings. These days, I think I've worked out that if UK ATC could have a remote interface to the MCP, they'd gladly use it every time for every aircraft to avoid having the pilots in the loop at all. ;)

Will the trust level improve with P-RNAV when RNP-5 or worse becomes RNP-1 or better?

[Inca_Gold01]

nzav8tor (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=170962) , i feel i should explain why over the south coast you are turned by 5 degrees and then released, seemingly without any benefit, it is mainly as my colleague medway control put it to avoid step descents, for example EGBB and EGSS arrivals route via the same airway coming over the south coast, the EGBB arrival has to be descended to FL250 an the EGSS to FL190, as generally the EGBB arrival comes above the EGSS sounds like no problems. However, if left on own nav the aircraft will be on top of each other the whole way down and this will result in a high workload for the controller and the pilots concerned. If both aircraft are turned by 5degrees then very soon there is 5nm between them and both can be cleared all the way down. it saves time and because it reduces the amount of level instructions is basically safer.

[ollycopter]

Okay, I have to clear something up. The London Controllers are fantastic. I have no quams with them and am sorry if I did not make that clear. Its purely a SID and STAR bashing exercise:E

Someone said that the beginning of the Stars is not clear, its a good point. Is it the Loral 2Q arrival that starts at Gurlu?? WHY?? The first time I entered London Airspace I was frantically looking for the arrival and wading through all the possibilities. And when I found it and got it all set up, we were put on a heading. I would love to visit the centre and will at some point. But I still think there are better ways to sort the mess, which is what it is. A few Zig Zag turns would give space possibilities.

To clear another thing up, I love flying in London as it is a challenge and a rush. I started this debate to get an insight and it is serving it's purpose very well:D

[nzav8tor]

Appreciate comments and feedback and have alot of respect for you guys down there sweating it out in the dull green glow.

Looks like we'll continue to see improvements and changes to procedures as experience and technology advance to cope with the ever increasing demands placed on the airspace.