I am the CPT so you do as i say

[Abusing_the_sky]

Hi guys,

Recently myself and my colleagues came across some very... let's say not CRM aware CPT's.
One example would be when this particular CPT said to the PU : " This is my aircraft, i am the CPT so you do as i say!" or "You need to change your attitude this is no way to speak to your CPT" (note that at this time he was addressing to one of our most senior and respected PU's)

I'm just curious, when things go out of hand, and you come across to people like that, what do you do? Imagine the worst, imagine they call you names or they have a rude attitude or you name it... Do you report them? Do you try and talk to them?

I look fwd to see your opinion:ok:

[rmac]

Easy to solve, you could get yourself an ATPL and a type rating, work a few years and get promoted to captain, then you can call the shots ;)

[wiggy]

At a first glance perhaps the Captain wasn't being very nice - but that doesn't mean he/she is not CRM aware - CRM is not about being nice to people, though IMHO it helps. Anyhow it is difficult to comment without knowing the full context of the conversations you refer to. If the Captain was p**** off over his Tea then maybe "I am the Captain" may not be appropriate, on the other hand if his authority was being directly challenged over an operational matter then his/her comments may have been more necessary.

I'll give you an example..On one of "my" flights recently one of our very experienced and senior colleagues in the Cabin was being particularly and deliberately obstructive over a particular issue. He was way out of line, and in clear breach of Company procedures. I tried the good guy, "please" bit for a while, then the, "I'd quite like you to.."..... Finally I had to resort to " You will do X and I'll happily take it into the office with you when we get back to base"... So yes, I have used the "I am the Captain, do as I say" line, but sadly IMHO it needed using.

Please remember that firstly, like it or not someone on the aircraft has to be the Boss, otherwise there would be anarchy. The Law of the land says that person is the Captain, and often in flight there isn't time for a committee meeting or gentle debate. Secondly, not all the ****oles on an aeroplane are the Flight Deck side of the locked door, there are some ( in my experience very few) ****holes working in the Cabin, and they can be a real pain to deal with.

[cargoattendant]

Well at least he's of a dying breed.
I once gave a Captain a copy of Zoo Magazine and as I shut the flight deck door i saw them (Captain & Fo) fighting over it.
I'm glad we don't have people like that in our workplace. Maybe at worst a watered down version of that!

[crewmeal]

I remember 40 years ago when working first class on a VC10 I could only speak to the Capt through the Senior First Officer. "Would you ask the Capt if he would prefer Consome or the Cream of Chicken" back came the answer "chicken" Then came the Dulux colour chart to ensure the right shade of tea, all via the SFO of course.

One particular Captain used to put on white gloves and run his finger on every 1st class seat to make sure it was clean. If it wasn't he would delay the flight, call back the cleaners and bollock the cabin crew.

We were also told during training at Cranebank that Some Captains thought they were special because they were nearer God at Flt350!!

I could write a book about what used to go on in those days. Sadly some of my colleagues still say there is an element of this going on today.

[Sean Dell]

Sadly some of my colleagues still say there is an element of this going on today.

I've never seen it. Not once.

[easynick]

I am cabin crew and in my opinion the captain is the captain and i'll do as he says, it's all about respect for your colleagues and seniors, and it's just the way it is, captain has final descision on everything. Too many PU/Seniors these days think they are special and like to go on power trips, and forget who it is that really calls the shots.

[speedrestriction]

While I don't believe there is ever any reason to be rude or obnoxious, there is times when the softly softly approach is inappropriate and authority must be exercised in a robust way.

[wobble2plank]

The Captain is the crew member, delegated by the company, to be in overall charge and accountable for the safe, professional and timely conduct of the flight. He/She is required to uphold issues of corporate policy and safety.

In that role the Captain will, almost certainly, delegate roles to key members of the crew, i.e. cabin security and conduct to the No.1/CSD/PU etc, 2nd in command to the SFO. This might well be done transparently through company procedures, however the buck stops with the Captain. The Captain has the ability, written in JAA law, to override ALL decisions made within the aircraft if he/she feels there is a need to do so. They don't even need to justify it to the crew member, but probably will have to on the ground to the management.

In the event of an incident/accident the Captain is accountable.

There are many, many ways to skin a cat, personally I think I get the best out of people when they are on-side to my cause. I am also very willing to listen to the advice of those who have worked in that environment for years. Unfortunately this doesn't always achieve the desired result as there are belligerent people out there. At this point I would have to use the authority invested in me by the company. If that comes down to the " I'm the Captain, you will do it this way" then so be it. It would take a long time to get to this point but it may well happen. Far from being a poor CRM example, it probably comes up as a good CRM example when you factor in that all other approaches had been made and it is the only possible way to achieve your aim.

You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.

If you are unsure of this, re-read your manual and find the definition of Aircraft Captain, it states it all in there.

[woftam]

Quote :"You need to change your attitude this is no way to speak to your CPT"

It doesn't sound like this exchange was without some provocation or ill chosen words on the part of the PU.
If that was the case then the Captain has every right to put the PU in their place.
As other posters have alluded to, a little bit of respect goes a long way. It sounds like this PU may have over stepped the mark and got the "tug on the chain" that they deserved. :ok:

[wingbar]

Well, sorry cabin crew's.

You need to know that the Captain has spent years in training as an F/o and has been through the severities of the flight training system, proven himself to his company and others. No matter what you think of him/ her, his opinion counts, and is the FINAL word.

I'm an F/o having spent years in training to get there, I listen to my captain and respect his authority, unless it's something safety related that should be challenged.
So with that in mind, as cabin crew, you should remember the rank order on the aircraft. It starts at the front, and tails off at the back. Sorry but thats the way of it, NOT my 'bad' CRM!
Some of the cabin crew and indeed the flight deck, don't really know what Crm is, and it gets used as an excuse for certain people to do what they want, an attribute that to CRM.

And by the way, if you don't like this having a boss, a leader, a captain, go and find a job where you don't have a boss, very difficult to do these days!

I did some time as cabin crew too, and I can say that the folks up front 99% had earned that position through hard graft, dedication, and years of personal investment and sacrifice.
If you want a position like that, then like one of the above posters said, go get your self an atpl and go through the fun and games of getting there.

Rant over!

[easynick]

So with that in mind, as cabin crew, you should remember the rank order on the aircraft. It starts at the front, and tails off at the back. Sorry but thats the way of it, NOT my 'bad' CRM!


I'm Sorry but i don't exactly agree with you on this one. I do agree that everybody needs to use a little bit more respect, and that flight deck go through years of training, But as other previous forum users have suggested it's bad attitudes from flight deck that can cause a loss of respect.

Remember it's easier to lose the respect of others than it is to EARN it. And it never comes automatically.

[SecurID]

Straight from the Ops Manual:

Cabin crew are responsible to the Head of Flight Operations and to the assigned Commander.

Now, would you like me to post the complete responsibilities of the Commander and the Cabin Crew?

[monkeybusiness2]

Don't think anyone is disputing that the captain is the one in charge, after all thats why they earn large salaries to go with the large amount of responsibility they have to deal with.

However sometimes its not what you say, its the way you say it. Remember why CRM was introduced? Because of the Kegworth incident in 1989.

[3Greens]

err i think you'll find that the concept of CRM was around a long time before Kegworth. :ugh:
Whether it was effective or not is another matter...

[clicker]

Thought it started after the Trident crash at Staines, perhaps in a different form/name but CRM all the same.

[monkeybusiness2]

errrr no don't think so.

The concept may have been around but the findings of the(Kegworth) crash found that CRM played a major part of the incident and CRM training was introduced into cabin crew SEP etc.

[haughtney1]

Monkey, whilst I don't disagree with you entirely, I have to say your comment about Kegworth is a little naive, certainly the teaching of CRM in a formalized structured environment was introduced as one of the lessons learned, but it was in no way absent for many many years as merely doing the job..wherever you operated as part of the crew.
Just because something is now taught in a classroom does not mean it didn't exist as more than just a concept previously.

[monkeybusiness2]

I'm not saying it didn't exist before Kegworth what I am saying is that Kegworth was a prime example of what can happen when communication breaks down between the two groups.

I have been flying for 22 years and pre Kegworth CRM was hardly discussed or talked about. Post Kegworth and its all about joint excercises at SEP etc.

I have lost count of the amount of times Kegworth is talked about when the whole conversation comes up about CRM.

Kegworth I feel, was the incident that emphasised the need for good CRM on both sides.

[13 please]

The concept of CRM was extended to cabin crew mainly because of Kegworth. Of course it was around before, but many crew had never heard about it, were never spoken to about it, it didn't involve us. We were included in the loop after Kegworth, because that, apparently, highlighted the need for good CRM and communication between Flight crew and cabin crew.


Monkey, sorry, didn't mean to virtually copy you! Man, I'm a slow typer..

[haughtney1]

Flying 22 years?


Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: london
Age: 30
Posts: 23
You need to update your details.....

Mayby Monkey its a company thing.....
NASA used to called CRM "the loop" be it the cockpit loop or crew loop...and to the best of my knowledge its been in existence since WW2 and was used in a military context by heavy bomber crews.
Down the years its been modified..refined..redefined into an airline environment etc etc and has certainly been part of at least two Legacy Carriers training programmes under the banner of "crew co-operation" for the past 30 years :ok:

[Dan D'air]

Abusing the Sky,

All you need to know is that CRM means:

Captain's Right Mate

As rmac stated so succinctly, get yourself an ATPL and a Command and then see how easy it is.

I am not getting at you, just stating that there are whole world full of things which you may not know about, need to know about or even have dreamed of, which impact directly on the FC before the CC and that even though you may think that someone is being unfair, un cooperative or even ignorant, you can rest assured that there are a host of very good reasons for someone operating an aircraft in the way that they do.

[monkeybusiness2]

Blimey wish I was 30! I am 46.

Joined BMA as it was then in 1986.

Left in 1990 to join BA.

I was the FSM onboard G-OBME.

[FireLight]

As the FSM, there is no question about your direct experience regarding FC versus CC responsibilities, and the importance of the whole team in terms of maintaining safe flight operations, especially when conditions go sideways. This incident is one which helps puts the whole FC/CC relationship in perspective.


Safety Recommendations
4.15 Training exercises for pilots and cabin crew should be introduced to improve co-ordination between technical and cabin crews in response to an emergency (Made 30 March 1990).

From here: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502831.pdf


Tough situation to be in. The loss of life was tragic. The only saving grave with these incidents is that the aviation industry learns and makes changes which improves safety for future flights.

[Abusing_the_sky]

Impressed with all the replies and took my pen and paper and started taking some notes...
Guys, i have no problem with having a boss. In this case, my boss is the CPT. I look up to my CPT and respect his/her title and job cause i know it took a long damn time to get there (for those of you advising me to become one to taste the power, sorry, i am far too weak, pretty confortable with being a hostie, not being locked up in the f/d for hours on end, sorry, it's just not me). I can even accept that, according to some, he is GOD in that a/c. What he says, goes. However, surely that doesn't mean i have to accept being treated like something he stepped in?!....
To be honest, i'm the one who's humble, smiles, says "yes sir no sir" and is more than happy to comply.
But as i said before, imagine the worst case scenario: he/she has a bad day, woke up on the wrong side of the bed, his/hers boiler broke down so he/she had to have a cold shower, starts shouting at you. Then he/she starts calling you names cause you dared to move the pen from here to there... And this happens again in about 1 week when you're rostered to fly together again... And so on and so forth. Then what do you do? That's what i am trying to find out.

Your posts are very much appreciated, thank you all:O

[wiggy]

Absuing..

Thanks for coming back. OK, I must admit what you describe doesn't sound right or reasonable. Do you know if he/she behaves consistently in a similar fashion with other crewmembers on other flights? Has he/she always behaved like this or has his/her behaviour changed of late? If you are sure the behaviour is consistent, it happens frequently and that it is detrimental to the operation of the aircraft then IMHO you are going to have to talk to one of your managers about it ( Standing by for incoming from some of my Flight Deck colleagues).

My opening line would probably be "I don't know if it's just me, but I'm not getting on very well with one of our Captains", and take it from there. Be very careful about what you say and personally I wouldn't even give the Captain's name until/unless asked. Above all be factual, do not use hearsay (e.g. "she told me that the Captain told her" ) or express too much in the way of personal opinion ( e.g." I think he/she is a *****") just describe what was said to you and events you personally witnessed. Then let your manager suggest a course of action.

Do also bear in mind this Captain may have personal issues that may be effecting their behaviour so don't rush to judgement - you never know what lies beneath.

[Tight Slot]

Very good post Wiggy. Everyone has good and bad days be it a C4 or a Capt. Victimisation is never a good thing being six miles over our lovely planet or in the crew room.

That said, the skipper, once the doors are closed, is the BOSS. More so even than the CEO of the airline. He/She calls the shots - period, UNLESS its unsafe to follow their orders.

CRM - yes, but a democracy it isn't.

[woftam]

CRM = Captain Remains Master :D

[Bobcanfixit]

All so true.

But please remember that the Engineer is GOD, and when in the air delegates some responsibilities to the Captain :ok:

[FireLight]

ATS

To follow up on wiggy's comments, a few thoughts.

As a general rule, it seems to me that the ideal course of action would be to bring up the subject directly with the Captain. Assuming he/she isn't of the "Captain Bligh" school of management, he/she may be open to a discussion if it's approached properly and at the right time. I think going to the Managers first, if you haven't tried to sort things with the Captain first, has some risk of escalating the situation.

There may be a time to request a minute of the Captain's time, especially if its adversely affecting the performance of the CC. In order to have this discussion it would be preferable to have it away from the flightdeck so he/she isn't preoccupied with flight operations and it's a private discussion.

Ideally, the discussion would be respectful, professional and serious. It would affirm the authority of the captain. It wouldn't be accusatory, otherwise the discussion may end quickly. If would identify the objective of the discussion as something along the lines of effective, efficient and harmonious flight operations. On those terms the Captain may be prepared to identify what he/she would like to see from the CC which would ease stress. This dialogue would at least offer the potential of identifying the important issues.

Good luck :ok:

* No money back guarantee on this though.

[BANANASBANANAS]

I did my 'CRM' course on the VC10 in the RAF too many years ago. It consisted of a 30 second chat from a senior instructor along the lines of:

"Never upset anyone who you think might ever be in a position to buy you a beer, save your life or tiddle in your coffee."

It's worked pretty well for the last 28 years or so.:ok:

[JJflyer]

I just wonder what promted the Captain top react the way he did. One could think that PU said something that was offensive. Perhaps it is the PU and that side of the story that needs to be looked into. Rather than calling this thread "I am the CPT so you do as I say", should we perhaps call it the " Unruly and rude PU verbally abuses the CPT" thread?

[stilton]

Agree with that, as Captain I treat everyone with politeness and respect.

It is really, the only way and precludes, 99% of the time my having to even mention my authority.

This attitude is usually reciprocated.

But I spent nineteen years as a Second and First officer so learned the meaning of humility
quite well !

[indamiddle]

the captain is god on the plane and if you cannot abide by what he directs you to do your only other alternatives are to stand yourself down from the sector or report the captain. both options can be dire so make sure you are not in the wrong. by standing yourself down the captain also knows that he, along with you, will be off for a meeting with the chief pilot and cabin manager. this can, sometimes, cause a rethink by the captain. think very very carefully before trying this

[Right Way Up]

the captain is god on the plane and if you cannot abide by what he directs you to do your only other alternatives are to stand yourself down from the sector or report the captain

2 scenarios:

1. at destination the runway is closed due to an incident with delay indefinite. You are now at minimum diversion fuel. The captain is deperate to get to destination so tells the first officer that we will hang around as the delay should not be too much longer.

2. The senior crew member reports to the captain that the headcount does not match the manifest. The captain says we are going anyway as we need to make the slot or we will go out of hours.

In these cases is the Captain a god? IMHO the most important people on the aircraft are the f/o in case 1 & the senior in case 2. Before anyone asks, both these events have occurred with at least one of the Captains being sacked!

Again IMHO, the problem with Captains tend to be the perception of a Captains role by both crew and the captains themselves.

[JJflyer]

Captain is not the god or a god.

However what the Captain is responsible for all the crew and their actions onboard the aircraft as well as the safety of the flight. The Captain bears the responsibility for a heavy landing of a first officer, an altitude bust of an first officer. Captain also assumes the responsibility for what go's on in the cabin. Blown slide, people hurt. Who files an ASR and whos details are there in the accident investigation report.

Wether some people like it or not, Captain is in charge and bears the reponsibility. Sometimes being a Captain calls for unpopular desicions. However occasionally these have to be made. I've made em and asked myself many a times, would I have done something differently? A few times in retrospect, yes I could have, but then again a Captain bases decisions on the information available at the time and hindsight, well we all know how easy it is to judge from an armchair.

Again people have bad days and sometimes it is extremely difficult to keep personal feelings in the background.

[av8rboyz]

I would like to ask the flight crew out there.
How would you approach a captain who has contravened safety and security regulations laid out by both the CAA and FAA?
Inviting a young lady up to the flight deck to visit on a flight out to the states, after the cabin manager objects he tells the cabin manager that he is the captain and he will do what he likes on his aircraft. And that he can make things difficult for the cabin manager if he reports it to the company.
The F/O keeps his head down and gob shut!
What would you do?

[legion319]

unfortunately there are many of them outhere, remenber you don't have to like the guy you just have to work with him, the important thing to remenber is that your ticket is on the line as well , so in some case you have to speak up and be a little more assertive , be sure that you don't cross the border.
I always include in my brief with new FO's that I am open to communication and positive criticizing, after all we are all humans and make mistakes.
cheers

[legion319]

We had two captains fired for that, this goes beyond stupidity, due to TSa regs, the FO should have say NO , Captain comes with privileges and responsability, how about if a pax would record it and disclose that to the media, this was the case here in the states.
cheers
jc

[CP Fox]

Hi there,

if this was me as a cabin manager i would report it to the company because a CPT cannot invite a pax up to the flight these days as the door is locked and no-one has access inless its the operating crew members.

If the CPT invites a pax that he fancys a bit of in the flight desk and the Cabin Manager says tries to say no its aganist the rules then the CPT pull out the good old phrase i am the CPT you do what i say. then says to the Cabin Manager if you report this he would make you life hell.

Then this is a threat and should be report to the company because next time he does it you may not be as lucky. That why there is a locked door theses day to prevent unauthorised access.

so next time do not just put your head down and walk away think about all them pax lifes you have oboard plus your crew.

[CP Fox]

for those of you that think the CPT is a god.

yes there is chain of command but at the end of the day we are all a team. in some cases stated in this tread the CPT will have to make the desicion and then the cabin crew must obey. but other case the Cabin crews desicion would be best to listen to.

To be a good boss you been calling the CPT you should be able to listen to all the advise in some situations or all people and then make the overall decision. Don't just assume that you decision is always the best. plus in some of these cases why are the FOs not making decisons are the captains using the phase on them to.

So at the end of the day the whole crew is a team and should pull together and then onboard you will have good CRM. thats whey in our company the cabin crew and flight deck to a crm course together so we can see both side of the job the cabin side and the flight desk side.

PS CRM does not stand for the Captain remains master.

[Glamgirl]

How CRM works for me:

Say hello and introduce myself (to the pilots) at the beginning of the day
Have a quick chat about whatever (cars, rosters, kids, family etc etc)
Give in the cabin security checks complete and ask permission to board
Ask when the pilots would like to eat
Ask what they would like to drink (and give the drinks to them)
Inform them "boarding completed"
Pass on "cabin secure" and any "specials"
Contact them at least every 30 min (usually more often) when flying
Sometimes flirt a little (if I know them well)

I have great respect for pilots, crew, and people in general. I will respect a Captain's decision UNLESS I don't think it's safe/a good idea etc. I know my job inside out, but still learn something every day.

Sometimes I get feedback from a Captain, and I deal with it. Sometimes it's not nice, but I ask if I can explain why I did/didn't do something. Usually, that's fine. I actually appreciate constructive critisism - it's the best way to learn.

I sometimes give feedback to pilots, including Captains. It's always constructive and I don't involve emotions.

I've had 2 incidents where I felt the Captain's CRM skills were not good. The first one, the Captain wouldn't listen to my worries about the head count (missing pax, so obviously worried about checked in luggage on board) and the other, I had the Captain shouting abuse at me.

In both instances I felt that a direct approach to the Captain involved would not have solved anything, therefore I went to a manager (who I know very well) and asked this person to have a quiet word, off the record.

Mostly, I find that open and honest communication does the trick. I have many pilot friends and I enjoy flying with most of our pilots. Mutual respect and knowing that pilots are humans is important.

Sorry for the long post, but I got on a roll there...

Gg

[CP Fox]

hey there,

I get what you mean about the 911 attacks that the hjackers where not invited. but what i was trying to say was that if the CPT invites some1 at random from the cabin they don't know then. You never know who that person is.

also as a PU i don't mind to board if we have no CPT as long as the FO is in the flight desk then that is cool for me. the quicker we board the quicker we arrive at our destination the quicker we get home for tea.

FOs are just as good as CPT just with less experience of flying or on that A/C type

[CP Fox]

I like the way CRM works for you, i do the same thing. but sometimes however nice you are to the CPT he just talks to you like sumthing you stepped in.

Most of our Flight crew are really great guys and we get on well but there is always 1 asshole in the company and treats you and the FO like crap.

[javafox]

None of the 9/11 attackers succeeded in their hijack because they "visited" the flightdeck. They just walked up to the flightdeck, opened the door. And killed the pilots. No invitation required.


It's my understanding that the hijackers gained access to the flight deck in part because they first murdered the cabin crew working in First Class. :sad:

[411A]

Cabin crew.
Needed?
Oh yes, for safety and service.

However, I have found, as a wide-body Captain for a very long time, that it is indeed quite easy to 'get along'.

I say to the number one CC...'you are in charge in the cabin, however if there is anything that requires my assistance, don't hesitate to ask'.

This results in, for the FD crew...
The tea make properly, coffee, too.
The crew meals are served piping hot.
And, most important, a fine attitude from all in the cabin.

Couldn't be easier.:ok:

[non iron]

What a cop out.
You ought to feel ashamed.

[non iron]

Bless, you took crm so much to heart that you tried to stiff the Skipper without telling him ?

[Glamgirl]

non-iron,

I might be completely and utterly blond here (and very tired) but I don't know what you mean (seriously, I don't).

Gg

[non iron]

On both occasions you felt that there was no point in talking to the captain, . . hence you took your concerns elsewhere.
lf you cop out what`s left ?
Old school and thick l`m afraid, sop`s applied with intelligence otherwise somebody may be hurt.

PS, no offence intended lady, l know it`s not easy.