I am the CPT so you do as i say
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I am the CPT so you do as i say
Hi guys,
Recently myself and my colleagues came across some very... let's say not CRM aware CPT's.
One example would be when this particular CPT said to the PU : " This is my aircraft, i am the CPT so you do as i say!" or "You need to change your attitude this is no way to speak to your CPT" (note that at this time he was addressing to one of our most senior and respected PU's)
I'm just curious, when things go out of hand, and you come across to people like that, what do you do? Imagine the worst, imagine they call you names or they have a rude attitude or you name it... Do you report them? Do you try and talk to them?
I look fwd to see your opinion
Recently myself and my colleagues came across some very... let's say not CRM aware CPT's.
One example would be when this particular CPT said to the PU : " This is my aircraft, i am the CPT so you do as i say!" or "You need to change your attitude this is no way to speak to your CPT" (note that at this time he was addressing to one of our most senior and respected PU's)
I'm just curious, when things go out of hand, and you come across to people like that, what do you do? Imagine the worst, imagine they call you names or they have a rude attitude or you name it... Do you report them? Do you try and talk to them?
I look fwd to see your opinion
Abusing_the_sky
At a first glance perhaps the Captain wasn't being very nice - but that doesn't mean he/she is not CRM aware - CRM is not about being nice to people, though IMHO it helps. Anyhow it is difficult to comment without knowing the full context of the conversations you refer to. If the Captain was p**** off over his Tea then maybe "I am the Captain" may not be appropriate, on the other hand if his authority was being directly challenged over an operational matter then his/her comments may have been more necessary.
I'll give you an example..On one of "my" flights recently one of our very experienced and senior colleagues in the Cabin was being particularly and deliberately obstructive over a particular issue. He was way out of line, and in clear breach of Company procedures. I tried the good guy, "please" bit for a while, then the, "I'd quite like you to.."..... Finally I had to resort to " You will do X and I'll happily take it into the office with you when we get back to base"... So yes, I have used the "I am the Captain, do as I say" line, but sadly IMHO it needed using.
Please remember that firstly, like it or not someone on the aircraft has to be the Boss, otherwise there would be anarchy. The Law of the land says that person is the Captain, and often in flight there isn't time for a committee meeting or gentle debate. Secondly, not all the ****oles on an aeroplane are the Flight Deck side of the locked door, there are some ( in my experience very few) ****holes working in the Cabin, and they can be a real pain to deal with.
I'll give you an example..On one of "my" flights recently one of our very experienced and senior colleagues in the Cabin was being particularly and deliberately obstructive over a particular issue. He was way out of line, and in clear breach of Company procedures. I tried the good guy, "please" bit for a while, then the, "I'd quite like you to.."..... Finally I had to resort to " You will do X and I'll happily take it into the office with you when we get back to base"... So yes, I have used the "I am the Captain, do as I say" line, but sadly IMHO it needed using.
Please remember that firstly, like it or not someone on the aircraft has to be the Boss, otherwise there would be anarchy. The Law of the land says that person is the Captain, and often in flight there isn't time for a committee meeting or gentle debate. Secondly, not all the ****oles on an aeroplane are the Flight Deck side of the locked door, there are some ( in my experience very few) ****holes working in the Cabin, and they can be a real pain to deal with.
Last edited by wiggy; 4th May 2008 at 10:29.
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Well at least he's of a dying breed.
I once gave a Captain a copy of Zoo Magazine and as I shut the flight deck door i saw them (Captain & Fo) fighting over it.
I'm glad we don't have people like that in our workplace. Maybe at worst a watered down version of that!
I once gave a Captain a copy of Zoo Magazine and as I shut the flight deck door i saw them (Captain & Fo) fighting over it.
I'm glad we don't have people like that in our workplace. Maybe at worst a watered down version of that!
I remember 40 years ago when working first class on a VC10 I could only speak to the Capt through the Senior First Officer. "Would you ask the Capt if he would prefer Consome or the Cream of Chicken" back came the answer "chicken" Then came the Dulux colour chart to ensure the right shade of tea, all via the SFO of course.
One particular Captain used to put on white gloves and run his finger on every 1st class seat to make sure it was clean. If it wasn't he would delay the flight, call back the cleaners and bollock the cabin crew.
We were also told during training at Cranebank that Some Captains thought they were special because they were nearer God at Flt350!!
I could write a book about what used to go on in those days. Sadly some of my colleagues still say there is an element of this going on today.
One particular Captain used to put on white gloves and run his finger on every 1st class seat to make sure it was clean. If it wasn't he would delay the flight, call back the cleaners and bollock the cabin crew.
We were also told during training at Cranebank that Some Captains thought they were special because they were nearer God at Flt350!!
I could write a book about what used to go on in those days. Sadly some of my colleagues still say there is an element of this going on today.
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I am cabin crew and in my opinion the captain is the captain and i'll do as he says, it's all about respect for your colleagues and seniors, and it's just the way it is, captain has final descision on everything. Too many PU/Seniors these days think they are special and like to go on power trips, and forget who it is that really calls the shots.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
While I don't believe there is ever any reason to be rude or obnoxious, there is times when the softly softly approach is inappropriate and authority must be exercised in a robust way.
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The Captain is the crew member, delegated by the company, to be in overall charge and accountable for the safe, professional and timely conduct of the flight. He/She is required to uphold issues of corporate policy and safety.
In that role the Captain will, almost certainly, delegate roles to key members of the crew, i.e. cabin security and conduct to the No.1/CSD/PU etc, 2nd in command to the SFO. This might well be done transparently through company procedures, however the buck stops with the Captain. The Captain has the ability, written in JAA law, to override ALL decisions made within the aircraft if he/she feels there is a need to do so. They don't even need to justify it to the crew member, but probably will have to on the ground to the management.
In the event of an incident/accident the Captain is accountable.
There are many, many ways to skin a cat, personally I think I get the best out of people when they are on-side to my cause. I am also very willing to listen to the advice of those who have worked in that environment for years. Unfortunately this doesn't always achieve the desired result as there are belligerent people out there. At this point I would have to use the authority invested in me by the company. If that comes down to the " I'm the Captain, you will do it this way" then so be it. It would take a long time to get to this point but it may well happen. Far from being a poor CRM example, it probably comes up as a good CRM example when you factor in that all other approaches had been made and it is the only possible way to achieve your aim.
You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
If you are unsure of this, re-read your manual and find the definition of Aircraft Captain, it states it all in there.
In that role the Captain will, almost certainly, delegate roles to key members of the crew, i.e. cabin security and conduct to the No.1/CSD/PU etc, 2nd in command to the SFO. This might well be done transparently through company procedures, however the buck stops with the Captain. The Captain has the ability, written in JAA law, to override ALL decisions made within the aircraft if he/she feels there is a need to do so. They don't even need to justify it to the crew member, but probably will have to on the ground to the management.
In the event of an incident/accident the Captain is accountable.
There are many, many ways to skin a cat, personally I think I get the best out of people when they are on-side to my cause. I am also very willing to listen to the advice of those who have worked in that environment for years. Unfortunately this doesn't always achieve the desired result as there are belligerent people out there. At this point I would have to use the authority invested in me by the company. If that comes down to the " I'm the Captain, you will do it this way" then so be it. It would take a long time to get to this point but it may well happen. Far from being a poor CRM example, it probably comes up as a good CRM example when you factor in that all other approaches had been made and it is the only possible way to achieve your aim.
You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
If you are unsure of this, re-read your manual and find the definition of Aircraft Captain, it states it all in there.
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Quote :"You need to change your attitude this is no way to speak to your CPT"
It doesn't sound like this exchange was without some provocation or ill chosen words on the part of the PU.
If that was the case then the Captain has every right to put the PU in their place.
As other posters have alluded to, a little bit of respect goes a long way. It sounds like this PU may have over stepped the mark and got the "tug on the chain" that they deserved.
It doesn't sound like this exchange was without some provocation or ill chosen words on the part of the PU.
If that was the case then the Captain has every right to put the PU in their place.
As other posters have alluded to, a little bit of respect goes a long way. It sounds like this PU may have over stepped the mark and got the "tug on the chain" that they deserved.
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Well, sorry cabin crew's.
You need to know that the Captain has spent years in training as an F/o and has been through the severities of the flight training system, proven himself to his company and others. No matter what you think of him/ her, his opinion counts, and is the FINAL word.
I'm an F/o having spent years in training to get there, I listen to my captain and respect his authority, unless it's something safety related that should be challenged.
So with that in mind, as cabin crew, you should remember the rank order on the aircraft. It starts at the front, and tails off at the back. Sorry but thats the way of it, NOT my 'bad' CRM!
Some of the cabin crew and indeed the flight deck, don't really know what Crm is, and it gets used as an excuse for certain people to do what they want, an attribute that to CRM.
And by the way, if you don't like this having a boss, a leader, a captain, go and find a job where you don't have a boss, very difficult to do these days!
I did some time as cabin crew too, and I can say that the folks up front 99% had earned that position through hard graft, dedication, and years of personal investment and sacrifice.
If you want a position like that, then like one of the above posters said, go get your self an atpl and go through the fun and games of getting there.
Rant over!
You need to know that the Captain has spent years in training as an F/o and has been through the severities of the flight training system, proven himself to his company and others. No matter what you think of him/ her, his opinion counts, and is the FINAL word.
I'm an F/o having spent years in training to get there, I listen to my captain and respect his authority, unless it's something safety related that should be challenged.
So with that in mind, as cabin crew, you should remember the rank order on the aircraft. It starts at the front, and tails off at the back. Sorry but thats the way of it, NOT my 'bad' CRM!
Some of the cabin crew and indeed the flight deck, don't really know what Crm is, and it gets used as an excuse for certain people to do what they want, an attribute that to CRM.
And by the way, if you don't like this having a boss, a leader, a captain, go and find a job where you don't have a boss, very difficult to do these days!
I did some time as cabin crew too, and I can say that the folks up front 99% had earned that position through hard graft, dedication, and years of personal investment and sacrifice.
If you want a position like that, then like one of the above posters said, go get your self an atpl and go through the fun and games of getting there.
Rant over!
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So with that in mind, as cabin crew, you should remember the rank order on the aircraft. It starts at the front, and tails off at the back. Sorry but thats the way of it, NOT my 'bad' CRM!
Remember it's easier to lose the respect of others than it is to EARN it. And it never comes automatically.
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Straight from the Ops Manual:
Cabin crew are responsible to the Head of Flight Operations and to the assigned Commander.
Now, would you like me to post the complete responsibilities of the Commander and the Cabin Crew?
Cabin crew are responsible to the Head of Flight Operations and to the assigned Commander.
Now, would you like me to post the complete responsibilities of the Commander and the Cabin Crew?
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Don't think anyone is disputing that the captain is the one in charge, after all thats why they earn large salaries to go with the large amount of responsibility they have to deal with.
However sometimes its not what you say, its the way you say it. Remember why CRM was introduced? Because of the Kegworth incident in 1989.
However sometimes its not what you say, its the way you say it. Remember why CRM was introduced? Because of the Kegworth incident in 1989.
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errrr no don't think so.
The concept may have been around but the findings of the(Kegworth) crash found that CRM played a major part of the incident and CRM training was introduced into cabin crew SEP etc.
The concept may have been around but the findings of the(Kegworth) crash found that CRM played a major part of the incident and CRM training was introduced into cabin crew SEP etc.
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Monkey, whilst I don't disagree with you entirely, I have to say your comment about Kegworth is a little naive, certainly the teaching of CRM in a formalized structured environment was introduced as one of the lessons learned, but it was in no way absent for many many years as merely doing the job..wherever you operated as part of the crew.
Just because something is now taught in a classroom does not mean it didn't exist as more than just a concept previously.
Just because something is now taught in a classroom does not mean it didn't exist as more than just a concept previously.
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I'm not saying it didn't exist before Kegworth what I am saying is that Kegworth was a prime example of what can happen when communication breaks down between the two groups.
I have been flying for 22 years and pre Kegworth CRM was hardly discussed or talked about. Post Kegworth and its all about joint excercises at SEP etc.
I have lost count of the amount of times Kegworth is talked about when the whole conversation comes up about CRM.
Kegworth I feel, was the incident that emphasised the need for good CRM on both sides.
I have been flying for 22 years and pre Kegworth CRM was hardly discussed or talked about. Post Kegworth and its all about joint excercises at SEP etc.
I have lost count of the amount of times Kegworth is talked about when the whole conversation comes up about CRM.
Kegworth I feel, was the incident that emphasised the need for good CRM on both sides.
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The concept of CRM was extended to cabin crew mainly because of Kegworth. Of course it was around before, but many crew had never heard about it, were never spoken to about it, it didn't involve us. We were included in the loop after Kegworth, because that, apparently, highlighted the need for good CRM and communication between Flight crew and cabin crew.
Monkey, sorry, didn't mean to virtually copy you! Man, I'm a slow typer..
Monkey, sorry, didn't mean to virtually copy you! Man, I'm a slow typer..