Any news from Eclipse 500 Jets operating in EU?

[warmkiter]

HI

Any news about EASA approval for the EA500? Have you got infos about operating in EU? Got some friends still considering to buy one, and with the dollar plunging its getting cheaper every day...
I would appreciate if you have first hand experience, you can also PM me
thanks for infos
Lars

[gr8shandini]

To be honest with you, I think the EA500 is a poor choice. There's nothing wrong with the airframe, it's the avionics system that stinks. They've painted themselves into a corner by promising an integrated avionics suite and full FMS at 1.5m (actually, closer to 2m with options). But if the company is going to be financially viable, they're going to have to start hiking the price to the point where a Mustang or Phenom isn't a much bigger investment for a lot more airplane.

Also, even if it gets certified tomorrow, I wouldn't expect an airplane any time soon. They'll tell you that there's a two year wait, but even if they meet their revised production estimate of 250 airplanes a year, simple math says that it'll be 10 years before they burn through the 2,500 orders already on the books.

[No RYR for me]

google eclipse aviation and go to eclipseaviationcriticng.************* which tells it all :rolleyes:

[gr8shandini]

As with anything on the net, be careful about what you read on the critic site. There's a lot of uninformed opinion there as well as some true accounts. Of course, whatever Eclipse tells you should be taken with a very large grain of salt as well. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[Stratocaster]

A-hem...

EASA: New VLJ Certification Requirements Possible
By Glenn Pew, Contributing Editor, Video Editor

The European Aviation Safety Agency may put very light jets through additional scrutiny, adapting requirements beyond those of basic certification and addressing an aircraft's specific performance envelope and complexity, according to Flight International. Considering that the Eclipse 500 VLJ can cruise at 41,000 feet, but has no spoilers to facilitate an emergency descent, EASA has suggested that it may devise regulatory requirements to address that and other issues -- regardless of the 500's (or another given aircraft model's) acceptance by the FAA. Such requirements may include tougher testing for software or hardware used in advanced heavily integrated avionics suites often found aboard VLJ designs, tougher checks for backup electrical power, and perhaps a requirement for demonstration of more precise navigational capability that may include a requirement for Mode S transponders. Eclipse is hoping for EASA certification of its Eclipse 500 by late 2009. EASA seems to be setting the stage for the potential introduction of some additional hurdles.


Source: http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/EASE_VLJ_Certification_197688-1.html

And I can still hear the voice of the Eclipse rep. saying "we're on track for an EASA certification late 2007".
:hmm:

[warmkiter]

hi

thanks for the replys. the eclipscriticsgblog has very little informational value. just a bunch of egos trying to make a point. most of them got very little clue about aviation.

i have flow the plane in ABQ and was quite impressed. the price is very low with the $/EUR rate now and a delivery slot is available suiting our needs.

you are right about the avionics system. sad its not a Garmin. but there is some movement towards a new solution.

would have appreciated some comments of guys who operate allready or are considering to get one.

Lars

[Denti]

Is it certified for known icing yet? Haven't really followed the progress lately. But without that i would think usability in european weather is pretty low.

[gr8shandini]

It's still not certified for FIKI so far as I know and I wouldn't expect it to be until next year at least. But that one isn't really Eclipse's fault. The FAA has rewritten the regs to the point that I'm not sure that any new aircraft with inflatable boots will ever pass. I think their best bet is to go with a TKS system, but maybe they can talk some sense into the FAA.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I spoke to a very senior aero guy at (A large aircraft manufacturer in Wichita) who did not have an commercial axe to grind (This guy had a tufted PC Monitor!), who expressed a concern with the tail surface areas and Cof G issues at light weights.

Apparently they got their measurements from a scaled picture of the aircraft at an early development stage and managed to get measurements by scaling the pilot. Figures for the EA500 were not good so somebody was sent to stand next to the pilot in the picture to properly assess his height to make sure that the initial sizes were correct!!

[trainer too 2]

the price is very low with the $/EUR rate now

A low price should only be a consideration if:
-It is a proven product
-It is a certified product
-It is a stable manufacturer
-There are no oustanding items

Currently that is a NO for all 4 so not sure if it is a low price in the long run..


a delivery slot is available suiting our needs.

Not a single aircraft has been delivered on time and all slots have been moved many times so that is a useless offer. To prove my point look at AVBUYER to see the following aircraft offered:

Year: 2008 TTAF: 0 S/N: 522
Reg: Price: Make Offer
Location: NM, USA
(Feb 2008 delivery!)

They have just delivered S/N: 175 :ugh:

Take the critic website for 50% for what it is worth but maybe read something from a fellow german Jan Brill the Managing Editor of pilotundflugzeug on April 20, 2008 4:02 PM.... quite shocking....

[Stratocaster]

Any chance of finding a translation or a summary of that article on the web (I guess it's written in German) ?

G-SPOT, I read your post at least three times and I'm still not sure I understood correctly. Say again, please... slllloooooowwwwwwlllllllyyyyy ("my brain hurts") :)

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Errrrrrr, yes managed to confuse myself - happens frequently.

Imagine picture of a pilot stood next to the aircraft, pilot is 6'0

Tail height is (on the picture) 2 x height of pilot = 12'0

If pilot is 5'6 tail height is 11'0

In this case pilot wasn't known so was tracked down and his height "assessed"....... a/c measurements made of the picture now they have a reference and product threat assesment made.

Competitors dont normally invite each other to the development hangars with tape measures!, happens a lot in the automotive industry as well apparently

[warmkiter]

hi

i have to say that even if you speak fluently german, the articles written by him in the Pilot und Flugzeug are very controversially and should be read carefully. Taking in account the background and experience plus information available his articles lean a bit far out of the window.
...but very amusing..

atleast one journo fights for the aviation instead against it...

but he seems to have an axe to grind with EA, or maybe because the pages filling ads from beech in his mag, its hard to stay objective...

cheers

lars

[IO540]

perhaps a requirement for demonstration of more precise navigational capability that may include a requirement for Mode S transponders

Who wrote that piece (the context is a JET) needs his head examined.

[No RYR for me]

Warmkiter it seems that you only want to hear what you want to hear. Good luck in parting from your money and dont come back crying afterwards. :confused:

[warmkiter]

hi no RYR for me...

if you have been working for such a bad employer and you have to post in such a manner about RYR, i have to seriously doubt your decicionmaking:O

maybe this lack of general overlook also limits your view and fact gathering even today:}

blue skies

lars

[No RYR for me]

if you have been working for such a bad employer and you have to post in such a manner about RYR, i have to seriously doubt your decicionmaking


My title is a statement not a CV :ugh:

But lets do some fact gathering: when is the slot due that perfectly fits your requirements?

[warmkiter]

2Q 2009

besides. if you have nothing to say, stay away. this is facts gathering, not asking for a decicion made by you...

cheers

lars

[No RYR for me]

Which s/n roughly? Purely for fact gathering?

[gr8shandini]

G-SPOT,

The Eclipse has plenty of tail. The CG envelope was restrictive on the early aircraft due solely to trim tab effectiveness. Even then, you could only get that far aft when you're single crew with a very light weight pilot. The performance mods that go along with the bigger tip tanks include a re-designed trim tab and the CG envelope has been expanded.

Interesting spy story, though. I would think that unless you had someone standing directly next to the tail, it'd be tough to get accurate numbers. Even then, you'd have to know your exact distance to the camera and the exact focal length of the lens. If it was a zoom, that'd be nearly impossible.

[airfoilmod]

The original Eclipse was to have been an all-composite Williams powered breakthrough. It quickly became an all aluminum standard technology compromise with some initial hype blending into its eventual certification and release. Of course its a fine aircraft, but there are myriad disappointments related to PR and marketing.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Shandini

Indeed, thought it was strange, the lack of accuracy (in the story) could well be down to me it was some years ago. I was far more interested in bullying the guy into the corner and making him explain why the whole arse end of my aircraft had to be festooned with Vortex Generators !!!!!!


Best Regards

[gr8shandini]

I'm not doubting the veracity of your story. I was just pointing out that it's tougher than it sounds to do that kind of comparison and that's probably why they got a smaller number than expected.

Oh and your mention of VGs reminded me of another reason for an apparently low tail volume. While your VGs were probably a fix to something found late in the test program, for some inexplicable reason, the Eclipse tailfeathers were festooned with Gurney tabs straight from the drawing board. The aero mods I mentioned earlier included 86ing the Gurneys and increasing the chord of all the control surfaces by about 3". That reduced drag quite a bit, but the effective tail volume is about the same.

On a side note, I wonder how much money Dan Gurney would have made had he patented his idea?

[Stassiebal]

It is not a perfect aircraft.... in fact... there are many well documented issues with it as we all know....

But... how many aircraft in the world can do Blackpool to Amsterdam Schipol in 1:02 burning 552 lbs of fuel?

I'm not going to go on and on trying to defend it, because I know that is a lost cause on this or any other forum....but it certainly has some good points.

D Spot..... you know where one lives.... come round some time... I'll show you a few of it's bits and pieces.... You can stand next to it and we can measure the tail and I'll even show you some C of G figures.

Stassiebal.

[cldrvr]

Gurney did not patent it as it was already patented by Zaparka in 1935, before Gurney was even born:
http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=RE019412&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p% 3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526 r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3DRE19412.PN.%2526OS%3DPN% 2FRE19412%2526RS%3DPN%2FRE19412&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

Should really be called a Zaparka flap.

[JP27]

was amazed to hear it can barely cope with hand luggage. Was talking to a US operator for a quote the other day, who told me that a very small duffle bag is all the Eclipse would manage. Not even a small overnight bag each for 3 pax?! Don't think I will be chartering this jet much...

[plinkton]

onecharter (http://www.onecharter.co.uk/) are offering one of these from January 2009. Also their website offers a Cirrus SR 22. I heard a little about it but wondered if this ever started commercial ops?