They're assing about with my licence again!

[Hireandhire]

Being a CAA PPL(A) and RT licence holder, clinging on to all my lifetime grandfather rights until EASA licencing completes all seven of Dantes "circles of hell", I have today received another masterpeice of bureaucratic s**t from the CAA, complete with a new licence.
Not being fluent in SRG-speak I am having trouble interpreting the letter.

Apparently I have been assessed (without my knowledge) as having only Grade 4 English language proficiency. Level 6 would be expected of us native speakers, but to attain this I have to get some b******s assessment done within 3 years by who knows whom? using form SRG/1199......

Who can do this? I am hoping my instructor at next bienniel revalidation?
What happens if we don't do it? Who pays?

What "mass transfer" of licences in the letter does this refer to?

This would be funny if it wasn't so bloody expensive for the taxpayer to fund. For the love of God cannot the CAA be either put back in charge OR removed completely from it's stance of EU toady? Or better still (and I know this is not a new idea) can we have the FAA please?

Right, that's off my chest then. But if the CAA SRG want a dose of good clear Anglo Saxon without the constraints of Mods, they know where I live.

HnH

[Rugbyears]

Sorry this is all new to me. Ok - you're English correct, and for whatever reason they have deemed to classify you at Grade 4 - Oh my goodness, I'm from Newcastle, a Geordie, I will be amazed if I am able to attain Grade 2..!

[DFC]

Who can do this?

It says who and how in the letter as well in many other documents which all pilots hould be familiar with!

Perhaps you would have preferred to have to do the test now before being permitted to do any more R/T?

Is it your complaint that you are not tested now but have 3 years to do the test and obtain your level 6?

Perhaps a 3 would have been more appropriate? ;)

Regards,

DFC

[Ivor_Novello]

yeah here at NATS at the Air Traffic College we have to do that too, ICAO English language assessment.

The funny thing is that we get assessed by a Russian who speaks like Borat ! :)

[eharding]

I'm from Newcastle, a Geordie, I will be amazed if I am able to attain Grade 2..!


Best strategy is to use the Geordie Phonetic alphabet.

e.g.

"Affirm" = "Yankee India, man."

[flybymike]

Apparently the assessment must be done by an examiner ( not an instructor) . The examiners I believe, are all deemed to be fluent in English regardless of their country of origin and without themselves having sat any formal English test ...:rolleyes:

[Mariner9]

English proficiency assesment is an ICAO requirement. Good excuse to have a moan at CAA and EASA though. :mad: :E

[Lurking123]

I believe you may have missed an apostrophe at "Dantes". That has to be worth at least one de-merit. :O

[theyounglaird]

I am with the CAA. Your English is clearly not as good as mine, so am happy that you are a 4 rather than a 6. When my day comes I'd much prefer to be speaking to a 6 on the radio rather than a nPPL in a 30 year old 152 who cannot grasp the basics of English. I would suggest that you should have to stick large L plates on your aircraft so we can avoid you.

[rjay259]

I do agree with most comments but to be told I only have a grade 4 by the CAA because that is what they have been told by EASA, by many of whom I belive may not be fluent at the English language and only attain level 3 if that.
I had heard that the French and possibly the Italians will contest the ruling.

I do wonder as to why we spent a good few years at school learning reading and writing of the English language taken several exams of the subject most of us then pass the exam to level C or above to be told, "you only speak level four not six till you pass an exam".

Surly the examination boards of the UK schooling system are a better judge of our grasp of the English language than those in Europe.

Next they will tell us how well we walk and breath and how well our bodily functions are.

Oh well.

259:suspect:

Ps sorry if there any spelling mistakes, nice little caviat there.

[Sam Rutherford]

"I had heard that the French and possibly the Italians will contest the ruling."

How do they know how good your English is??!!


Ps sorry if there any spelling mistakes, nice little caviat there.

- this addendum is either unfortunate or comic genius!

[Hireandhire]

Ah well, my main gripe was about the sheer inefficiency of the change process. It is adding cost but not value to the exercise of my lifetime privileges, having passed a live Rt examination for my licence in the first place and I object to being sent obscure and incomplete information written in crap english.

DFC, theyounglaird: sure have a go at what you guess to be my literacy from forum posts, it's fair game on pprune. Neither of my degrees is in English as it happens, but when I do write contractual documents as part of my professional life, you'll have to take my word that my English usage is far clearer, more concise and simpler language than the CAA letter. And If I don't add enough value to my business, I expect to get sacked - how can we get rid of the Gatwick Gravytrain?

regards
HnH

[flybymike]

On a more general note, Hire and hire makes a fair point with regard to the slow but sure erosion of the former privileges which we CAA licence holders used to enjoy, by both JAA and now EASA.

The deal I struck with the CAA some 25 years ago was that I would pass the exams, pass the flying test, keep my medical current and do at least 5 hours flying every 13months. In return they would leave me alone for the rest of my life.

Then along comes Johnny Foreigner and says "Oh No" to all that stuff. Far too easy and dangerous. From now on we would like some money from you every 5 years just to keep your former lifetime license valid ( and to keep us in employment) . You must retake what is to all intents and purposes a flying test every two years, you must take an MEP test every year, you must now do 12 hours in 12 months ad nauseum....And all of this despite the recent CAA study which showed precisely zero safety improvements since implementation...:ugh:

[Talkdownman]

Why does one have to undertake separate English Language Proficiency Assessments for a CAA Pilots licence and a CAA ATCO licence when they both have the same CAA reference number? Why can't they be transferable?

[julian_storey]

I am not normally one in favour of European interference. I am also surprised to learn that a British person is only assumed to have a level four (out of six) grasp of English.

The one silver lining to this cloud is that there are a small number of foreign pilots and air traffic controllers whose grasp of English is so poor (anyone who flies airways in some parts of 'Southern Europe' will know what I mean) that safety could potentially be compromised. If they were forced to brush up their English a little bit, it might be no bad thing.

[neutron]

I too hold a lifetime CAA licence but my new licence came back with: XIII Remarks Language Proficiency-English Nothing above the level at all!

[dublinpilot]

Have a listen to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWDEIvjwaFU) and tell me that you don't think testing in English is a good thing?

The fact that you've only given level 4 is simply a matter that your English has never been assessed as being anything more than just meeting the minimum standard.

If you now prove that your English is perfectly fluent, then you'll never have to be tested again. If you English is somewhere between barely scraping through, and slightly less than fluent, then you'll need regular testing to make sure that you don't end up like the guy in the above clip.

I for one think it's a good idea, so long as it's carried out correctly. If guys like the one in the above clip get level 4, then it makes a mockery of the system. Lets how that isn't what happens.

dp

[Lister Noble]

dublinpilot,
That was scary,was he Irish?
;);)
Seriously ,I don't have a problem with language grades for pilots,although I'm not sure how they grade people just because they are UK residents,how does it work?
Lister:)

[flybymike]

Many people have made the point ( with which I agree) that the outcome of that particular RT exchange could have been far more satisfactory ( and safer) if the controller concerned had been a little less short tempered and full of himself, and had shown a little more tolerance and understanding.

[Lister Noble]

I wonder how he would have managed in Mandarin?;)

[microlight AV8R]

Can't decide whether to be amused or horrified! The ATC at JFK rattle off instructions in a way which is hard to discern. If you're familiar with the airport it's probably not a problem, but they seem very garbled. It reminds me of the joys of MATZ penetration calls around Mildenhall. :(

[jollyrog]

I think it was foolish of the controller to use words that he wasn't offering as clearances or instructions in the exchange.

The Chinese pilot kept saying "November", but ATC replied with "November" in the sentence.

Likewise, he kept asking "have they cleared you into the ramp/gate". The question should have been "What clearance have you received" (or such like).

The controller made a bad situation much worse.