Please listen out before transmitting!

[CEJM]

Lately I have noticed that with increasing frequency people don't listen out anymore before they transmit!. :mad::ugh:

It happens across the globe and to every airline. Not only does it increase the workload of controllers and pilots, as transmissions have to be repeated, it is also very annoying.

I would like to ask my fellow colleagues to listen out for 5 to 10 seconds before transmitting after a frequency change.

Rant over.

[Torque2]

I'm sure there is a function of 'fine tuning' on various radios that requires pressing of the Tx button in order to receive any weak signals after a frequency change, that could be part of the problem and not just a global increase in not listening. Perhaps someone could remind us of the peculiarities involved? :)

[Captain Smithy]

Ah, a common problem. I have experienced this a number of times, being in the middle of making a transmission myself when some fool barges in on-frequency without listening first.

Not sure why people just can't be patient?

[average bloke]

5-10 seconds on a busy frequency in the London TMA? You joking? Otherwise I agree with your sentiments.

[FLCH]

Try waiting 5-10 seconds when Gander and Shanwick are sharing the same HF frequncies....Pah !

[rjay259]

I agree too, I have found it odd tho as the only ones who I hear that tx straight away are the friendly folks from Germany.

Being efficient is not always the best way.

259;)

[CEJM]

Average bloke & FLCH,

It isn't that difficult to understand is it? :hmm:

After changing frequency wait 5-10 seconds before transmitting so you know whats going on on the frequency. You don't have to wait for 5-10 seconds silence before transmitting. The only thing I request from my fellow pilots is to stop transmitting immediatly after changing frequency's. There is of course always a chance that you will transmit at the same time as somebody else but that is something we have to live with. Operating out of the London TMA on a nearly daily basis and in fairly regular contact with Gander/Shanwick and I can assure you that it will work.



rjay259, I don't agree with you that it most likely are the Germans. Everywhere we operate to you hear people stepping on eachother just because they have no patience.

We were talking to the ground controller yesterday, asking for taxi clearance. In the middle of the G/C's response there is this G registred vacating the runway and blocking out the G/C. I can imagine if they both started talking at the same time, but the G/C was in the middle of his sentence.

[Ayrton]

hey It's not a problem of a specific country, all around the world there are cheeky pilots...

[rjay259]

CEJM I said from what I have heard it was those from Germany and if Lufthansa, Air berlin and Yellowcab have all relocated to some other European contry well then I take it all back.

Touchy feelings today.

259

[CEJM]

No touchy feelings at all.

It only seems a bit unfair to mention only the Germans while my experience shows that nearly every operator has pilots doing it.

Thats all.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I'm sure there is a function of 'fine tuning' on various radios that requires pressing of the Tx button in order to receive any weak signals after a frequency change>>

Probably means the squelch control needs adjusting...

[Dream Land]

Probably means the squelch control needs adjusting...
All automatic now. :rolleyes:

[bookworm]

There is a tendency, particularly among controllers who are used to having the best transmitters and receivers, to believe that if party A can hear party B's transmissions, and party A can hear party C's transmissions, then party B can hear party C's transmissions. Radio, I'm afraid, doesn't work like that all the time.

I've certainly come across situations in which the plate tells me to "Contact X on passing xxxx ft", but it's extremely unlikely that I'll be able to hear X's transmissions until I'm thousands of feet higher. Hence the only thing I'm likely to do is step on one of X's transmissions.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

CEJM is correct to highlight this problem-and it's certainly NOT restricted to any group of pilots!

There's far too many who hit the 'flip-flop' button and then the PTT a nanosecond later! FACT.

Don't do it!

Listen out for about 5 secs, and then.....

carry on as normal.

Hardly rocket science, is it? :ooh:

[fireflybob]

Of course there is a technical fix for this called Contran I believe which inhibits transmit should another station be transmitting but it costs money to fit and it would only really be effective if the majority of aircraft were so equipped.

I think the problem is a symptom of frequency congestion and the many different sectors one has to work in today's ATC environment.

Perhaps what is just annoying though are those who go rambling on (usually in a non standard way) on an obviously busy frequency. Whilst pleasantries such as Gooday (or even Hello which seems to be used as standard with a certain big airline I shall not mention) may be acceptable during quiet times, it's not standard and takes up valuable air time.

It's always been one of the standard rules to "listen out before transmitting".

[Pugilistic Animus]

when you switch frequencies [if you're not moving too much]--close your eyes take a deep breath while listening---then transmit with a smug look on your face---not only do you look cool doing it--- you also feel cool and you don't step on anyone:ok:

[sooty615]

Why are we bashing the Germans here? Thread creep I know, but let's also have a pop at the Spanish and Italians!

Italian frequencies operating ENE of Nice over the Alps need fixing. Those flying into Nice/Cannes are forced to descend early and as a result require squelch even at FL330. Not realising this many crews just don't hear ATC. Surely the Italian ATC must have recognised this problem so should install relay stations? Same also when trying to remain in contact with ATC flying in the vicinity of Palermo while headed down to Malta. Rome ATC just can't reach anyone below FL370 unless they also are forced to squelch.

As for the Spanish - well I'm sure they are still using microphones designed by Alexander Logie Watt (or was he the lightbulb bloke?) !!

[Brain Potter]

Just as annoying are those pilots who don't actually listen to the content of what is happening on frequency and interrupt an ongoing pilot-ATC transaction.

"X Centre, ABC 123 request climb FL370"

and in the short break before ATC can reply:

"X Centre, XYZ 456 FL310 direct Someplace"

Is it too difficult to pause for just a few moments whilst listening and paying attention?

[Finbarr]

Actually it's not "Listen Out", just "Listen". Listen and Out are two separate commands - "listen" means exactly that and "out" means something like "My transmission has ended". But please not "Over and Out"!

[Double Zero]

Just as a point of interest ( maybe ! ) this problem is common on small boat VHF too, where inexperienced / nervous or plain inconsiderate people grab the microphone and just jabber away...

Obviously boats and their problems happen slower than with aircraft - though getting out of trouble is slow too - but in ridiculously busy areas like the Solent, the Coastguard have suffered a major sense of humour failure and for instance usually won't answer 'radio checks' anymore.

This of course could be counter-productive for the odd genuine person who really needs it ! We're supposed to check with our chums now, but that's not as sophisticated as the CG kit.

In quieter areas like the West Country the CG are able to be a lot more helpful, but I sympathise with the Solent team.

An aside -I remember flying with a VERY good and experienced pilot in a light aircraft ( he was highly experienced with jet fighters in harsh environments ) - when being passed from one ATC to another he had to call the original ATC back as he'd missed the frequency, which was rather quickly & automatically read out to him, there wasn't a chance of taking notes etc.

I wonder if there is a system to display or automatically go to the frequency required, on more sophisticated aircraft at least ?

[rottenray]

I'm sure there is a function of 'fine tuning' on various radios that requires pressing of the Tx button in order to receive any weak signals after a frequency change


As someone who used to work on USAF comm equipment, let me clear this up.

After you change freqs, depending on the transceiver, there might be a second or 2 of reduced sensitivity if the previous channel was busy with lots of nearby radio traffic - think of it as a short-term hangover while the receiver heads back up to maximum sensitivity.

Hitting the PTT isn't going to help this.


Regarding fine tuning...

The transmitter section is designed to broadcast at the center of any given freq - over time, it might need recalibration depending on the circuitry chosen by the engineer.

The receiver section is designed to listen at the center of the freq, and make small temporary adjustments as needed to acquire signals that are slightly off-channel. This is why you can sometimes hear one weak signal fairly well and almost miss another equally weak signal altogether.


As far as the original suggestion of waiting a few seconds before transmitting, this seems like good common sense as well as being old school Ham etiquette.

It also reflects that we're a couple generations into the wireless phone era, where 2 people talking to each other can talk at the same time and each will be able to hear the other.

That's called "full duplex," and radio is half-duplex: You talk, I listen, I listen, you talk.

[parabellum]

From what I experienced I believe some of the problem stems from everyone on the flight deck using speakers and no one just keeping one ear in a head set. As a result radio communication gets lost in the over all babble of conversation. Our SOP was that the PNF should keep one ear covered by their headset, seemed to work.