Pilots who overshot Hawaii runway fired, face FAA action

[FlyingWay]

HONOLULU — Two pilots suspected of falling asleep on a flight from Honolulu to Hilo in February were fired last week by the airline go!. The pilots also may face Federal Aviation Administration sanctions.
Paul Skellon, vice president of corporate communications for Phoenix-based Mesa Air Group, go!'s parent company, issued a statement yesterday confirming the firing.
"After a thorough internal investigation into the incident on Feb. 13 in which go! Flight 1002 overflew the airport at Hilo, Mesa has terminated the employment of both pilots involved," Skellon said by telephone from Phoenix.
The pilots were not identified.
Flight 1002 was headed for Hilo Airport at about 10 a.m. local time but overshot the airport by 15 miles before returning to land safely. A radar track of the 214-mile flight provided by the website www.flightaware.com (http://flightaware.com/) shows the plane remained at 21,000 feet as it flew past Hilo before returning to the airport. Air traffic controllers reportedly were unable to contact the pilots for a while.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2008-04-25-go-pilots_N.htm?csp=34

[airfoilmod]

Early on in Thread it was reported both crew admitted to NTSB investigators that they had slept at controls several times before.
See "Asleep, Fatigue Thread" same forum

Airfoil

[airfoilmod]

I appreciate your loyalty and justice for the aircrew, I may have placed too much credence with the report. Knowing the Union actively defended them at the outset, and the termination happened so quickly, one expects the worst. As a personnel issue, it is likely the "report" will not be available, for obvious reasons; the NTSB report having a different goal (safety) probably will be made public, but not for some time.

Airfoil

[airfoilmod]

I would say to avoid exposure to a possible Libel action. I think Mesa employees are Contract personnel, and must be terminated for cause. Since the Airline has released them, one assumes cause was found, sufficient to avoid any repercussions from the Union and or the Individuals.

[airfoilmod]

Had an 02 problem in the Lear (35?). But in that case, all died well before crashing. F-16 reported Thick ice on the Inside of the A/C windows. In this case, the Pax did NOT fall asleep or die, and they are somewhat pissed. I think it's a closed show, Pick your battles and all that.

Out

[captjns]

I’m curious to know if the cabin crew, or passengers felt light headed or head achy, or even more fatigued, thus suggesting a problem with the pressurization system.

Checking the GO website, http://www.iflygo.com/ the flgiht schedules don't appear to start too early or end very late. Wonder what kind of rest they are given between daily rosters.

Oh well... yawnnnnn.... I guess these two lads will have all the time to sleep on the beach.

[chrisbl]

I want to try to be completely fair to professionals.

Not professional enough it seems.

[FREDAcheck]

PPL with a question:

If you've had a heavy roster, feel yourself uncontrollably nodding off, and the guy next to you is doing likewise, what should you do?

[Intruder]

Maybe you should have gone to bed instead of the cockpit...

[anotheradam]

In this scenario, I'd guess 1st check the rest of the crew and passengers, if they're also feeling tired- - - - -there's a problem, and the need to get clean fresh air in the plane would be a priority. If it's just the cockpit crew, order some strong coffee.
Cheers

[aussiepax]

How the heck do you fall asleep on such as short flight ? Long haul I could imagine, but this...... !?!

[Pimp My Ride]

This does raise an important topic, Is it ever OK to sleep, power nap, rest ones eyes or simply rest whilst the other crew member takes over all duties?

I must admit that sometimes I feel very sleepy on flight duty, and just to explain that I do fly short haul. Sometimes asking ones colleague if its ok to shut ones peerers for a few mins (10-20) seems like the best solution.

As far as I am aware medically I'm fine, no blood sugar issues, I don't party or drink but I do suffer from disturbed nights due a few squealers at home. Normally the first sector is OK but I can get really tired all of a sudden. I rise to the ocassion when required and when its quiet I can get tired.

Am I normal? I've never had a colleague express any concern or make any objection to my request for a few minutes rest. Perhaps they do have uncommunicated reservations, and I do feel a bit guilty for needing the respite in the first place.

Its a pity that this issue is not really addressed in the short haul sector, pilots have fallen asleep before and it will probably happen again.

Your creative or constructive opinion would be appreciated.:hmm: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzz

[4PW's]

Not sure how or what happened enroute Hilo, but in answer to the second last post, how's this for a bit of perspective:

During the First World War, British and allied soldiers on sentry duty in the trenches were not to fall asleep. Those that did were executed by firing squad. Many were shot, yet, still, soldiers on sentry duty inexplicably fell asleep.

The body will sleep if severely fatigued, regardless of the perceived consequences.

It is therefore very important to power nap if you cannot stay awake in the cruise. Failure to do so is to invite micro-sleeps on final approach when falling asleep for even a second can be devastating.

Other than that, you may want to visit your doctor for specific advice on determining whether or not you suffer sleep apnea, and what to do about it if so.

[airfoilmod]

Then you must remember the Banyan Tree at the end of the runway at Kona Village? I've had Leaves in the wheel wells flying out of that spot. One guy put a 182 in the bay after hitting that tree. It's in 80 ' of water and fun to dive on. I had a bud later fly Bank Paper up and down the Sac. Valley in the 402. "TurboSystem" they was. Sleepy after Eating? At my age I feel sleepy after everything.

[Tree]

How the heck do you fall asleep on such as short flight ? Long haul I could imagine, but this...... !?!


Quite easily actually. Imagine 8 very short very busy sectors a day x 18 days a month = cumulative fatigue. Up very early with massive doses of caffeine. About mid-morning finally have a chance to inhale a 3 minute "breakfast".
Caffeine now wearing off and food finally in the stomach. Top of climb and autopilot on and warm sun shining in cockpit.
Been there done that. Both of us. More than once.

[RMC]

A couple of related questions.....

- Does anyone remember the South American airliner that overshoot Brazil (1980's)? My vague recollection of the story was that the pilots were woken by the cabin crew asking why the ETA had passed and they hadn't landed. Horrifically they were over the ocean with not enough fuel to make landfall?
I never read anything about this pesonally but was told that it was the catalyst for the cabin crew's 20 min check of the flight deck? In the version I was told I think it was a VARIG aircraft.

- Another second hand story which should be easier to confirm....some long haul operators have an SOP for controlled napping. It involves taking turns to sleep whilst a member of the cabin crew (hopefully opposite sex) keeps the other crew member aroused. Is this true?

[Brian Abraham]

In a mailing I received from AVweb today it commented that WFAA-TV, a Dallas TV station, reported in 2006 that Mesa's mainland operational schedules were so tight that some pilots camped in their aircraft. (my bolding) Fatigue? Not possible :ugh: :oh: ALPA has filed a grievance with the airline on the pilots' behalf.

[CALB756]

In a mailing I received from AVweb today it commented that WFAA-TV, a Dallas TV station, reported in 2006 that Mesa's mainland operational schedules were so tight that some pilots camped in their aircraft. (my bolding) Fatigue? Not possible :ugh: :oh: ALPA has filed a grievance with the airline on the pilots' behalf.

Here's that report:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=109169&catId=104

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa061108_mo_tiredpilots.1b6739d3.html

[angels]

(hopefully opposite sex) keeps the other crew member aroused.

Hmmm.

Couldn't this add to the problem? I often fall asleep as a result of having become too aroused....:eek:

[Finn47]

As an update on this, seems the pilots have admitted falling asleep and having tried to cover it up:

Go! pilots admit dozing in flight - News - Starbulletin.com (http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20081226_Go_pilots_admit_dozing_in_flight.html)

[JJflyer]

Moi

Never fallen asleep while flying, especially not over South America on the way to Buenos Aires from Miami. Nor have I ever dozed off over the Indian Ocean or the Atlantic :eek: NOT

Me thinks that there are no long haul pilots that have not dozed off during flight. How many actually?

I had a very simple way to control tirednees and fatigue. I did controlled cat naps of 15-20 min if we didn't have augmented crew. Cabin crew was checking on us every 20 min so that sequenced the nap well. Some airlines it is compulsory to have a rest during the flight and CAA publishes a note on inflight rest.

Hawaii is not the best place to be falling a sleep though, especially in a short range jet and the incident could have potentially had very dire consequenses.

What worries me is that the management culture and attitude of FAA/CAA what have you, towards pilots having done a mistake or erred in some way as increasingly punitive. This attitude is counterproductive to safety. How many incidents and near accidents will go unreported by pilots in fear of being fired or punished?

[captplaystation]

To go back to the first post. . . . "Vice president of corporate communications" :cool: nice to see he is continuing the trend he started 10 years ago in VEX in BRU i.e. inventing your own job title. Candidate for bullsh1tter of the year if ever there was one. Obviously followed the discredited disgraced ex VEX U.S "management := " across the pond. Not quite far enough away, but it will do.

[Murexway]

Anyone who hasn't seen another pilot nod off, or fought to avoid doing so themself, hasn't flown much in the middle of the night. A little time on the nose hose can help clear the cobwebs before an approach at the end of an all-nighter. I would presume it works in the daytime, as well.

Seems I remember a west-bound 727 crew that overflew LAX years ago in the late afternoon. I think the FE woke up first. Forget how far out over the Pacific they were, but they made it back.

I thought I'd heard that at one point the FAA was investigating the concept of allowing catnaps in the cockpit for one pilot at a time, as long as there were two other people in the pit who remained awake.

[TeachMe]

I learnt somewhere along the way that the body sleeps in 45min cycles, and thus a nap of 45, 90, or other such multiple was better. Of course individuals are different so it my be 35 in some and 60 in others.

Based on this piece of (perhaps false) learning what is the rationale for it being 20 minutes? Would that not have you wake up more tired than when you fell asleep?

TME

[jackharr]

I often fall asleep as a result of having become too aroused....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
Too long ago now to remember if I used to.

Jack (aged 70)

[JJflyer]

20 min was the interval that Cabin crew would ring the doorbell and wake me up. There's the rationale.

[StudentInDebt]

I'm not a professional pilot, hence don't want you to take this the wrong way, but your sleeping habits strike me as extremely dangerous. So you're an expert on human physiology specialising in a sleep related field? No? Oh in that case I think I'll continue to listen my flight ops management who've implemented a controlled-rest program following advice from specialists who conducted studies into the subject of sleep deprivation and alertness in flightcrew and whose conclusions are that controlled rest is vital to combatting the effects of fatigue.

NASA statement (http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/legaff/mann8-3.html)

[mono]

Controlled cat-naps make perfect sense to me and the UK CAA has published a paper on the subject.

The rational behind 15-20 mins is such that one sleeps but does not enter REM (or if you like dream) sleep

Research suggests that waking up from a short nap leaves one rested and the sleep to functionally awake duration is short. If the sleep duration is too long and REM sleep has occured then most likely the subject WILL wake in an extremely groggy state and further, the sleep to functionally awake period is much longer.

edit for speeeeling

[BigHitDH]

I mean honestly, how can anyone expect people that might already be tired due to work, to sit in a hot stuffy seat, for hours on end, with little to do for long periods of time, not to nod off? How many accidents have we had over the years attributed to fatigue?

Maybe one of the regulatory authorities needs to come up some guidelines on this. I'd rather have someone up front who was fresh and rested than falling asleep, who knows what might get missed. The theory (as mentioned elsewhere in the thread) of power naps is a well established one, why don't the regulators embrace it? (I suspect passenger fears).

I can buy a car that will alert me if I nod off and wake me up, can we not have a system for the cockpit?

[Obie]

45 yrs in the trade from Instructor, Charter pilot, Airline pilot and Sim instructor and never nodded off once!

What's with you guys that do? :=:=

[StudentInDebt]

What's with you guys that do? Just a shot in the dark here but I reckon they're tired :bored:

[Obie]

...should have stayed home then! :=:=

[criss]

Yeah sure.

At my airport several airlines arrive in the evening, around 22LT, just when I finish my shift. I'm not elligible to work until next afternoon shift, starting 14LT, but they depart between 5 and 6LT next day, same crews. How much sleep do they get - 3, at most 4 hours? Do you want to say "they should have stayed at home"?

Sure, if something goes wrong, they'll get fired, and the business will continue, just like in the case we discuss here.

[JJflyer]

Anyone saying that he has not nodded off is either lying or full of c.rap or perhaps has not flown consecutive mostly night rosters involving long haul flights with time difference several years in a row employed companies with some of the less restrictive flight and duty time limits.

Another option is the "Super Pilot" so abundant on this forum who makes no mistakes and is second to god only (If that).

Or after 45 years cannot remember nodding off anymore. Regardless I am going to go and nap before working.

[Murexway]

"45 yrs in the trade from Instructor, Charter pilot, Airline pilot and Sim instructor and never nodded off once! What's with you guys that do? ...should have stayed home then! :=:="

We fly at night and aren't Super-heros, as obviously, you are.

[G-DAVE]

DominicYPGV, to quote you;

I'm not a professional pilot, hence don't want you to take this the wrong way, but your sleeping habits strike me as extremely dangerous.
"Sometimes asking ones colleague if its ok to shut ones peerers for a few mins (10-20) seems like the best solution." What would be the consequences if the other pilot was to also fall asleep, or suffer disabling conditions due to an illness. Who would be flying the plane? With all honesty if i was tired and thought i could fall asleep i wouldn't step into that cockpit. Perhaps i am ignorant though:rolleyes:. I have heard that lot's of case studies are under way to find out if the noise generated by engines and instruments can sooth someone to sleep. Very interesting topic i think...http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

No, your obviously not a professional pilot. If one asks for a few minutes shut eye, the other pilot will agree if he/she knows they are ok. If not, they will deide between them the best course of action to take. Knowing the other resources available, the best decission will be made. This is called CRM, which also utilises the non flying crew members as well. This is real world commercial flying. It's in may SOP's, that ALL proffesional pilots adhere to.
In your ideal, i.e, not stepping into a cockpit feeling tired, tell me any airline in the world where pilots NEVER have to start off being tired and I will give you a months salary. With all the planing in the world, you can never forsee EVERY aspect that may stop a crew mwmber from being tired the night before a duty.

[stilton]

'Obie' is full of it :8

[Two's in]

Another option is the "Super Pilot" so abundant on this forum who makes no mistakes and is second to god only (If that).

There is a good forum for reading about Super Pilots who make no mistakes here;

Air Accidents Investigation: Home (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/home/index.cfm)

[Pedalz]

Actually I don't think Obies full of it. The times of 6 day slips that we find only now on extended lay overs, if your on long haul, on the right fleet and have enough seniority are gone, im sure it would've helped with fatigue, and Obie would have been around then and I don't hold it against him, they were great times.

Today the fatigue and pressure from the upper echelons wear you down, part of the job, but I don't think it's being looked into enough by most airlines and aviation administrations. My airline did sleep testing on the crew a few years ago where we recorded our sleep with PDA's provided by the airline, but this is all I've heard of. Im not sure if it's rest hours being to short or the ways in which the rosters are constructed but the airlines need to start getting smarter about this one way or another.

[Obie]

Well, I've just checked my log book, considering you young turks seem to be put out, somewhat, that someone should question your modern day "wimpy standards"!

Started in May 1959 and retired in Sept 2005, 46yrs and 4mths total time, according to my maths!

Hey, lay off the booze, get a good nights sleep, act professionally and you'll get through it like I, and many others did!! Before you soft lot came along!!
:=:=:=:=

[bop319]

Hi Obie,

might I ask how many flight hours you've actually done in all those years?
I still hope I'm gonne make so many years of service, but I sometimes doubt it in the current conditions. I'm fit, but the body just can't take so much anymore, hence tiredness. And I know I'm not the only one.

Amount of landings might also be interesting.

I feel that there are so many study cases about tiredness with pilots, but mostly aimed at long-haul duties. Where as short-haul pilots (like me) spend the same time (or longer sometimes) a day in an aircraft doing 4 (or more) take offs and landings and also doing this multiple days in a row with minimum rest. Not many studies found about this...

[Obie]

15,000, bop, plus another 2k on sim work (back of the clock)
Domestic short haul plus international short/medium (also back of the clock), but no long haul.

No big deal...just plan your life around the roster! Not the roster around your life!!

Otherwise, get another job!

[Capt Pit Bull]

Well Obie, here's the thing...

17K hours over a 46 year career isnt really very much at all. 370 hours a year in fact. In the current environment short/medium haul pilots will do at least double that at most operators, indeed many will be up towards 900 hours a year which is 2.4 times more than you managed.

So, yes, clearly the current crop of pilots are a "soft lot" :rolleyes:

pb

[JJflyer]

Yeh when my old man was flying times indeed where great, not so more. Min rest at all stations and CAA required mandatory days off no more no less.

Long haul, time difference night all the time. I didn't like the look of the face staring back at me in the mirror so I took a shorthaul day job.

Don't plan my life around roster unless is it absolutely necessary. Too many wasted days sleeping for or after a long flight. Missed parties and celebrations, friend, wife's you name it.

I work to LIVE not live to work. I have a life outside the job and as much as I like flying thats all this is, a job.

As for finding another job. Lets have a reality check here. Not an option really now is it.

As for being soft. Well I am glad that most of the hard guys with the ego that could hardly fit in an empty 747 have retired. If being hard is being stupid as it seems, I rather be soft and smart :} in my modern ways.

[captplaystation]

900 hours a year for a 45 yr career, no-one is going to look as good as Obie at the end of that :rolleyes:

You would think he felt rested enough to digest that simple fact after 370 hrs a year. ;)

[helimutt]

Forgive me adding my $0.02 worth. I fly helicopters in the offshore industry, North Sea UK. We have mixed roster patterns but work on average 17 days in 28. Our duties can start at 6am, which for some means up at 4.30am for getting ready and travelling. We don't fly anywhere near 800 hours a year, more like 550-600, but, it's all very short sectors, the longest being about an hour, the shortest about 15 minutes. There can be shuttling between rigs for periods of time. The constant radio chatter, vibration of the aircraft, paperwork, and sometimes p*** poor weather conditions can make that 7 hour period of time very tiring. Up to 18 sectors, landings, take offs etc.
I haven't managed to nod off yet but some mornings it can be very hard to stay 100% focussed, not good for when you're out over the sea, in winter, at 200' and 80kts, flying an instrument approach using weather radar down to a 0.75nm decision.
I don't think it;s the type of flying, ie long haul, short haul, heli's, fixed wing, I think anyone can feel tired from the job they do. All we can do is to minimise the things likely to cause it.

Oh, and I think Obie (wan? Use the force?) If you only flew 380 hours a year. You've had an easy life I think. Probably nice to be siting pretty, up there on your throne, having never done any wrong, with your no doubt full salary pension:E, which many guys these days will never see the likes of again. Lucky old sod!

[bop319]

Well, here's my point Obie (as some others also pointed out already), times have changed!
I'm flying commercially now for 10 years and have 6000 hours and well over 4000 landings. In my first couple of years of flying for a small commuter airline I flew about 300 hours a year. Now flying for one of the bigger low cost carriers I do at least 850 hours a year (880 last year). Now taking your calculations I can go for another 36 years x 850 = 30600 hours! Adding my already 6000 hours I come to the grand total of 36600 hours!! Assuming I last this long.

What people here are trying to make clear is, that it is no longer a job with perks and much deserved rest between flights. It is hard work to the max. Flighttime limitations used to be there for a guidance as it is called MAXIMUM flight times. Now this is seen by managers as a target to be cost effective and get their bonusses.

I personally think it is only a matter of time before a major accident will happen caused by fatigue. Problem is, it will just be taken out on the pilots for not taking enough rest. Private life doesn't count anymore. When you're home you should be in bed sleeping, preparing for your next flight.

This is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but I think most here will know what I'm talking about.

So to be honest Obie, your 17000 hours might have been impressive a while ago, but we're long past that era. And about getting another job?? Well, that might be better in another topic, jobs aren't as easy to get at the moment as they were and I definately don't want to be on the lower parts of any seniority list.

[Murexway]

Forget it guys. You're wasting your time.

I just read all of Obie's posts for the past three months and have concluded that he's a member of the "one-percent" crowd - guys who couldn't be more full of themselves if they ripped off their own arm and ate it.

Over the years all of us have flown copilot for one of these guys and avoided them ever after.

[Mister Geezer]

I think Obie is trying to wind you all up deliberately! :}

He sounds as if he is the sort of chap who would have Captain instead of Mr on his Credit Cards! Need I say more?

Regards

Mister Geezer (BTW - I have nodded off in flight too!;))

[StudentInDebt]

Well, I've just checked my log book, considering you young turks seem to be put out, somewhat, that someone should question your modern day "wimpy standards"!In his book "Behind The Cockpit Door", Arthur Whitlock describes fellow pilots nodding off in several of his anecdotes, the time-frame for the book would have been about the same time as your aviation career started Obie - plus ca change...

[Fly3]

Obie is another good candidate for the ingore list I think.

[Cessna120]

Some do, hell the -400 does and its 20 years old!

[Obie]

...by the way, I forgot to tell you lot that I had some health problems that resulted in the loss of my first class medical at about the 30 year mark in my career.

After sorting that out over a couple of years I spent some 7 years doing back of the clock sim work until my first class medical was reinstated. Lost about 10 years there but kept my hand in with about another 3000hrs of sim work that I never bothered logging.

What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!

You think tiredness is a problem in your career?

Try cancer!

[JJflyer]

Sad to hear that about the health. That really is my biggest concern in this business. That is, to lose the little paper that says Class 1. Cancer is something that has affected my immediate family so I am aware of the implications.

Regardless it was your intial post that prompted the less than polite replies from me and others. If you perhaps had rephrased what you wanted to say, well the replies could have been a bit different as well.

As for the industry. It is in shambles except a few and afr inbetween companies that still offer good work conditions and relative stability. Not what it was 10 years ago let alone 20 or 30.

[Murexway]

Obie:
"What kept me going?... loved the job and wasn't prepared to give it up without a fight, not like you lot who are in aviation... for what? You tell me!"

--------------------------------------------

Sorry about the health issues, but why do you question everyone else's committment to the profession? You're not the only guy who's ever "loved the job".

You seem to look down on everyone else. For every guy that blows off and builds himself up at the expense of others, there's a hundred pilots who are better sticks, who done more, have more hours, etc. They just don't run their mouths about it, that's the difference.

[tonyryan]

And tell me Obie,

If you were doing 900 hrs a years; year on year, allowing for being off for a while, how many hours would you have by now?

The reality is that, at the worst, you never worked more than one third of what is being demanded of crews now a days.

You are highly arrogant in your dismissal of the crew involved and it is apparant that the big C you encountered was not related to your a55hole since you are a perfect specimen of one.

Murexway, I've been that soldier too. Cheers to you mate.

[bill_s]

I've never nodded off as a PPL, but have come close to leaving the freeway several
times. Massive caffeine does not seem to help, but a large dose of sugar will
keep me awake for hours. Like a couple of Life Saver rolls.

A 30 minute nap works wonders, if you have the time and a place.

[rigpiggy]

Last year I only did about 600 hrs, prior to that averaged about 850+, my company at the time scheduled 2 13:55 duty days with the last 2 at 11:55 hey it met the Cars, didn't mean I was a functioning human being.

Company's response when told we were fatigued, was a threat to get the AME to pull our medical.

[Obie]

You lot still don't get it, do you?

It's not about me and my career, it's about you, enjoying the job and appreciating how fortunate you are to be in the position you're in!

And most of you bomb out badly because on your own admittance you don't enjoy the job, complain all the time and obviously don't appreciate what you've got!

So, why do it? :bored:

[JJflyer]

Fortunate or not and by who's measure?

Fatigue is a big issue these days and it is you Obie who does not get it. Not the same job it was 20 years ago. Obviously the Captain of that flight had a serious health issue, the sleep Apnea. For the FO the condition certainly was not that. He was most certainly fatigued. Would be nice to see what he flew and the rotations and times in the year preceding to the incident. I am qurious about the sleep apnea as well. How common is this with pilots. I know 2 pilots personally who lost their medicals becaues of the illness and know of 3 more, all long haul pilots. Could this be something that is work related or partially caused by the job?

I repeat: I work to live and not live to work. It's a job. Enjoy flying as much as I ever did, but I hate to see where this industry is going.

Now Obie, be a good boy and take your pills and try to get it that its not the same cup of tea anymore.

[400drvr]

Dominic,

I will try to shed some light on the sleep issues for you. I just left home yesterday, east coast of the USA. I arrived at my base in asia 14 hours later. I slept to 2 am local time and went back to bed at 6 am to try to get some sleep before my assigned trip back to the east coast of the USA. My departure time is 1930 local time which will be 0530 as far as my body clock is concerned. Spend 12 months a year, over a career at this and it's hard to tell when the body might want to sleep. I know it does not explain the short sector issue but I was once a commuter pilot and flying 6 to 10 short legs a day which is much more difficult and has it's own set of issues. The body requires sleep and when you work on someone else's schedule the need for sleep and the time available do not always coincide.

Rgds

Ed

[El Supremo]

Hey, With the rostering practices that are outrageous, and airlines that work their crews to the bone, it is any wonder we are seeing more of these types of incidents. Remember no Captain or co-pilot ever goes to work to blatantly break the rules. Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Obie]

...as I said, you lot oughta get another job!...

especially you, JJfluffy! :bored::bored::bored:

[Capt Pit Bull]

It's not about me and my career,

Well Obie, you are the person that introduced your career as part of your arguement that fatigue is a non issue. Since you are not comparing like for like this is a fatal weakness in your argument.

pb

[JJflyer]

Ignore function first ever use. Guess who's got the nr1 spot on the list :} It's the one who didn't take his happy pills this morning :E

Back to business. Having mostly flown the back side of the clock the last few years it is the rest times and requirements that needed changing not how many hours one flies per year. The new Subpart Q is a big improvement in this area especially changing the rest time to count before the next FDP and not the end of the preceding. A small change on paper but big difference in reality.

Not flying long haul anymore, I find that my sleep patterns are slowly returning to normal, I sleep well during the nights (Not sitting at FL350 staring into the darkness) and wake up fresh, even if it is an early morning. I presume the quality of long haul flying greatly depends on the company you work for and their routes as well as their rostering system. For me flying short sectors seems to have worked quite well.

FAA pt121 rules are much less stringent than those of UK CAA or JAA/EASA. This could be one of the reasons to the incident in Hawaii.

[Obie]

That's a good point, Pit Bull. We may not be comparing apples with apples, as you suggest!

Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!

No!... thought not.

You lot are really starting to bore me with your soft, poncy attitude!

Go sell used cars...and I bet you bitch like buggery about that too!!

[The Trappist]

Pilots nodding off, particularly on long haul, is a perennial problem. Maybe the proper solution is a pragmatic approach. :ok:
One of the guys at the Orval recalled a certain European airline, engaged mostly in trans-Atlantic flights, that addressed the problem by fitting a loud egg timer to the overhead panel.
Apparently rest periods of about 30 min. were recommended and, coupled with standard cabin staff visits every 20 min., seemed to work very well. With all crewmembers arriving at destination maybe tired, but not fatigued. :)
Crew are not automata, legislation up to the eyeballs will not provide solutions.

[Jimmy Do Little]

Is it ever OK to sleep, power nap, rest ones eyes or simply rest whilst the other crew member takes over all duties?


Unless your company has an approved "Flight Deck Rest Policy" then the answer is no, it's not OK.

Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!


Yep, been there..done that!

[Capt Pit Bull]

Obie,

Ever flogged around on DC3s for 12, 13 or 14hr duty periods? Middle of the night, numerous landings, low level, rough as guts, no radar, no food, hosties gone to pieces and pax throwing up!


Well, having lead an interesting and varied aviation career, the answer to all of the above is Yes, with the exception of having flown the DC3.

Although I have seen them.... dissolving into heaps of corosion ,parked around the edges of various backwater airfields.

But if the crux of your arguement is that you've flown a type I haven't I'd say you need to try a lot harder. Essentially all you've done is illustrate - yet again - that your career happened at a different point in the development of the industry.

I don't really see where you're coming from. There are various pro's and con's in the way the industry has developed in the time I've been associated with it. No question about it - some things have definitely got easier. For myself though, there is no doubt that rostering practices and to a degree total time flown have made this a more tiring job than it used to be. Doesnt mean flying isn't fun, or that tiredness can't be mitigated by lifestyle, to a degree at least.

For me, the real eye opener was losing my medical temporarily. Fortunately nothing as serious as your situation, but I was grounded for a few months. I wasn't on sick leave though, I took a deskjob on an avionics project. So I wasn't rested because I was having a lot of time off. I was working regular hours and eating regular meals; and I can honestly say the difference was astonishing. I felt 100% more alert, far better able to focus, and I lost half a stone as well.

I should also point out that I've had more tiring jobs than as a line pilot... but not by much.

Bottom line is this - within my circle of experience, fatigue has become more of an issue in recent years. You can say not - but if you're haven't flown 800+ hours under 'modern' rostering practices for several consecutive years you can't really speak with any credibility on the subject.

pb

[Murexway]

Obie has got to be jerking everyone's chain in this thread. :)

NOBODY could possibly be such a jerk and so arrogant towards everyone else in aviation (?)

Either that, or he's one of those for whom the job was his entire life and he's so lost and bitter and resentful in retirement that his brain is hardening.

[flyboymurphy]

Well, to get back to what happened here. The remedy was to fire the two pilots concerned. Thank God that has solved the problem. It will of course never happen again. A bullet dodged. Well done FAA , Mesa and the NTSB.
The public can rest assured.

How ridiculous was this lynching ?

This happens. And knowing quite a few regional airline pilots in the US, I know that they run them ragged 90 % of the time. Although I am not familiar with the rest times for these guys, the odds of them having a good roster is very very small , trust me !
We can debate back and forth whether it should happen or not, whether pilots now are wussies (Obie !) . Irrelevant.
It does happen, and should be addressed in an adult way by the authorities, SOPs etc. to minimise the risks and ensure safety is #1.

This case will send future incidents underground and does nothing to deal with the issue. The NTSB has had fatigue on their wish list for many years and it comes up on their reports an alarming amount of times.
But as expected in aviation companies these days , for good PR, fire the pilots, proclaim everything ok and stick your head back in the sand.


The FAA needs to grow some B!@#lls and start acting like a governing agency.

[Junkflyer]

Tracking the pilots' path
This is a time line of events involving the pilots of go! Flight 1002, who fell asleep on a flight to Hilo from Honolulu on Feb. 13. The time line begins the day before.

Feb. 12

» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. and bought a fast-food breakfast. He reported for work at 5:40 a.m. The first officer said he woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m.; he reported for duty at 5:40 a.m. Their flight together was delayed because a flight attendant was late. They flew eight flights together and got off duty at 2:47 p.m.

» The captain said he went to bed between 8 and 9 a.m., after having arranged for the first officer to pick him up the next morning. He described his sleep as "pretty good."

» The first officer said he went to bed at 9:30 p.m. and described his sleep as "good."

Feb. 13

» The captain woke up at 4 a.m. but did not eat breakfast because the first officer was late in picking him up. The first officer woke between 4:50 and 5 a.m. and ate a pastry. They both reported for work at 5:40 a.m.

» Due to a flight attendant scheduling error, their first flight departed 30 minutes late. They shared a package of cookies on that flight.

» 9:16 a.m. - Flight 1002 departed Honolulu Airport.

» 9:30 a.m. - Captain informed the FAA's Honolulu Control Facility (HCF) that Flight 1002 was climbing through 11,700 feet to its cruise altitude. HCF confirmed communication and cleared flight to designated area near the Big Island.

» 9:33 a.m. - HCF confirmed previous instruction. Captain acknowledged transmission.

» 9:40 a.m. - As Flight 1002 crossed Maui, HCF instructed pilots to change radio frequencies. There was no response.

» For the next 18 minutes HCF attempted to contact Flight 1002 but got no response.

» 9:51 a.m. - An HCF controller asked another controller to try contacting the plane using a different frequency. The controller did so, with no response.

» 9:55 a.m. - Flight 1002 passed Hilo and headed out over the ocean. HCF asked another go! flight to contact Flight 1002 on a company radio frequency. The other flight crew tried but got no response.

» A Continental Airlines flight tried to contact Flight 1002 on an emergency frequency but also got no response.

» The first officer then awoke, checked the fuel gauge and woke up the captain, telling him that air traffic controllers were trying to contact him.

» 9:58 a.m. - Flight 1002 captain contacted air controllers, but the transmission was unintelligible. HCF asked whether there was an emergency. The captain said no. HCF then issued instructions to return to Hilo.

» 10:15 a.m. - Flight 1002 landed at Hilo Airport.

» Shortly thereafter the captain told the FAA via telephone that they had lost communication because they had selected the wrong radio frequency. FAA personnel said the incident would be reported to Mesa Airlines, the parent company of go!

» Pilots discussed whether they should fly the next flight back to Honolulu. They decided it would be "safe to do so because they were feeling very alert as a result of the incident."

» 10:29 a.m. - Flight 1044 departed Hilo for Honolulu.

» During the flight to Oahu, the pilots decided to remove themselves from duty upon arrival in Honolulu.

» 11:18 a.m. - Flight 1044 landed at Honolulu Airport.

Source: National Transportation Safety Board

[Obie]

Hey! Pit Bull, you're not listening to what I'm telling you, none of you are! You're hearing what you want to hear!

Like all of you I've flown many consecutive years at 800+ on the same equipment that you're flying now, including my final year at 842hrs 3yrs ago at the age of 65!

Didn't affect me so why does it affect you? :=

[HEALY]

The time line does not really give any real indications on why they BOTH fell asleep. It indicates that they both had maybe 7 hours of "good" sleep prior to the flight so doing 2 early wake ups is fairly much the norm for most shorthaul pilots.
It seems that there lies a more complicated and fatigue induced timeline maybe building up for the last week, month or 6 months. Not just the work related issues but you have to dive deeper into other "life" factors that may have had an influence.
As far as Im concerned the timeline shown gives NO excuses for what occured and a more detailed lengthy timeline should give a more clearer picture with maybe what these pilots faced.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Thousand years ago a 4 eng. prop. jet aircraft ( Vanguard ? can't remember, doesn't matter, slowish, anyway ) departed Bristol, UK around 08.00 am and crashed making an approach in bad, snow, weather, near Basle around 1.5 hrs. later ( pls. don't pick me up on details - doesn't matter.) I was driving home after a New York - London overnight sector, when I heard the Mg. Dir. of the airline being asked on the BBC if fatigue could have been a factor - not at all, was the reply, the flight left at 0800 ( approx ) so what could possibly have caused a fatigue problem a couple of hours later ?

Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off.

At prop.jet speeds, work it back yourselves, the crew would have reported for duty around 03.00 - 04.00 for the pre-flight prep. and two sectors before arriving at Bristol for an 0800 departure, so what time did they get up to drive to Manston ? 01.00 ( ish ) ? So what time did they go to bed in a normal, family home, kids, T.V., to try to sleep ? And what time did they get home the previous afternoon, after maybe 3 or 4 holiday charter sectors around the Med ? And what had they been doing for the three or four days previous. Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?

I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P. before reaching home, and 'explained' a few facts of airline life to him - to his surprise, and he 'promised' to bring it up with the then "Aviation" Minister. Was subsequently invited to lunch in The House, with said M.P. and put my case to the "Minister" . Not a lot has changed, tho'

[JJflyer]

Hi ExSp33db1rd

In that sense not a lot has changed, just gotten harder as companies push to the limits. I found the report for the accident in Basle Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/11_1975__g_axop.cfm)

However I do believe that you are referring to an earlier one where one of the reasons mentioned was crew fatigue ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 951 Vanguard G-APEE London-Heathrow Airport (LHR) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19651027-0&lang=en)

Happy and safe new year 09

[Obie]

...and from me, too!

Hope you lot grow some balls in '09!

[Capt Pit Bull]

Hey! Pit Bull, you're not listening to what I'm telling you, none of you are! You're hearing what you want to hear!

Well, I'm reading what you're saying, you viewpoint is very clear, but the logical arguement behind it is weak. Watch python - contradiction is not an arguement.

Like all of you

Not me! The most I personally have ever managed is about 750, thank god. Although under some pretty unhelpful rostering circumstances and with a lot of positioning thrown in. And likewise you're hearing what you want to hear, as I clearly mentioned in my previous post this is more to do with rostering practices than total time.

I've flown many consecutive years at 800+

No you haven't. You may have done some, but even with 10 years out for illness, you simply can't have done many years at 800 and only manage 17K in your career.

on the same equipment that you're flying now,

I very much doubt that.

including my final year at 842hrs 3yrs ago at the age of 65!

Fair enough, you actually do have some credibility after all. But.... based on what your saying the ammount of work you've done has clearly picked up over the final decade. This is consistent with what the rest of us are saying to you.

Didn't affect me so why does it affect you?

Well, if had ramped up to 850 when you were 30, and you were looking at another 35 years like that... maybe you'd feel differently.

Then again maybe you wouldn't; fact is there are a lot of individual variations in this kind of thing. Maybe you're off down one end of the bell curve - in which case, good for you. But flight time limitations need to be good for the 95 percentile. Face it, the clear majority opinion suggests that fatigue is more of an issue than it used to be.

(p.s you'll notice I've addressed your points one by one, and either conceded them or made a counterpoint. That's an arguement. Simply repeating the same point,

Hope you lot grow some balls in '09!

with some insults thrown in, does not qualify as such, so I'll bow out at this point.

pb

[The Trappist]

Re Post #76

Yet again, so wrong, so wrong! Indeed, so wrong you could even be a journalist?
It is really too shameful to spread such utter, misconceived, drivel.
There are still people (a couple at the Orval) who have intimate knowledge of the events of the sad day to which you allude. You may not lightly tread on their toes!

Quote: "Thousand years ago…" Actually 1973
Pity that you did not take the trouble to read the official report (Air Accidents Investigation Branch: 11/1975 G-AXOP (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/11_1975__g_axop.cfm))
Before lurching into erroneous print…

Quote: "Turned out that the aircraft left Manston, and flew via Bournemouth before landing at Bristol to refuel and load the pax for an 08.00 take off."
To save your wrinkled gray cells here is an excerpt from the official report:
" On Tuesday, 10 April 1973, the aircraft G-AXOP, a Vickers Vanguard 952 belonging to the British company Invicta International Airlines (Invicta), was used on charter flight IM 435 from Luton via Bristol to Basel. 139 passengers were taken on board in Bristol. It took off for Basel at 0719 hrs with Captain A Dorman in the left-hand and Captain I Terry in the right-hand pilot's seat."

Quote: "Not fatigued because they started the last, fatal, sector at a 'normal' start-work hour ? Who says ?"
Well actually, the official report says:
" Captain Dorman's rest periods before commencing the flight from Luton amounted to 27 hrs, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 23 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."
Of Capt. Terry: " The pilot had had a rest period of 13 hrs 20 mins before commencing flight IM 435 in Luton, his duty period up to the accident was approximately 4 hrs 45 mins. He had flown 17 hrs 25 mins in the last 7 days."

Fatigue a factor? Not according to the official report. The MD naturally had a position to defend, however, calmer minds concurred.

Quote: " I was so incensed at the flippant reply, that I drove straight around to my local M.P." Well bully for you!
Based on such limited knowledge you obviously just needed an excuse to bully and badger some poor unsuspecting soul.

What actually happened is in the official report. However, those were the days before CRM had become such an integrated part of training.

[captplaystation]

JJflyer,
thanks for the two links, they make sobering reading (and the Invicta accident should be required reading for anyone brought up on the latest generation of EFIS aircraft as a lesson on the necessity of situational awareness without a TV)
Interestingly, there appeared to be no hesitation in apportioning some of the blame on tiredness in the BEA accident ,as they had made several approaches & it was now 0123 in the morning (doesn't say in this abridged version how long they had been on duty, I assume they had done at least 1 previous sector Northbound prior to the accident flight ? )
However, the Swiss didn't seem to think a crew @ 0913 who had been on duty (never mind travel time to work etc) for 4hr45 already, would perhaps be feeling less than bright eyed & bushy tailed.

[moonburn]

Trappist,
Well deserved rollocking, there are still quite a few of us out here who were based at forward ops ( Bert and Ena's ) on that fateful day.

As a point of interest, the 'egg timers' were used on the 100 series classic to remind us of fuel heat, they had the Pratts fitted with no FCOC and so manual fuel heat was required every 15 minutes or so depending on OAT and Tank temp. Sorry to disillusion you but it would be expecting a bit much for a major carrier to acknowledge fatigue to the extent of fitting alarm clocks wouldn't it.
If the journos want a story perhaps they should be tackling the regulatory authorities who refuse to take on the powers of commerce and consistently
ignore the dangers to the travelling public posed by widely used rostering practices.( they'll prosecute you in a flash though if you make a successful go - around from a cocked up approach, while FATIGUED )

[pontifex]

I wish I had chanced upon this thread before. I think I read one truly sensible posting which revealed that humans will sleep if sufficiently tired as the poor sentries in WW1 discovered. I would now like to tell the world (including journalists and assorted laypersons) PILOTS ARE HUMAN. This is incontrovertible. At one time I flew on the bucket and spade trade with 7 day rosters comprising 2 days early, 3 days normal and 2 days overnight. Although it was called short haul, two 5 hour sectors with a one hour turn round makes for a pretty long day. If on the final two days you find yourself flogging back over Hungary or Austria at 0300 or 0400 I think you could be forgiven for feeling just a little jaded and fighting to keep the eyes open. How silly when it has been proved that a 20 minutes power nap will give you about 3 hours of alert consciousness. Of course this napping must be properly controlled with appropriate checks and balances. But how much better and safer to reach destination (possibly in grotty conditions) with both pilots fresh and alert than to have one succumb to a micro sleep on final approach. It does happen - I once had to take control from a senior training captain who fell asleep on a NPA at the end of such a sector. It taught us both lessons and the company thereafter were happy for their crews to use controlled power naps.

[Mister Geezer]

JAR OPS actually endorsed controlled rest on the Flight Deck, when crews found themselves unexpectedly fatigued. Used it a couple of times myself and I made it clear to the F/Os that it was an acceptable practice in a 'needs must' situation.

[ExSp33db1rd]

......( pls. don't pick me up on details - doesn't matter.) .........


Trappist - once again you've totally missed the point of my comment, didn't even read my post properly - see above.

I wasn't commenting on details subsequently contained in the accident report, which hadn't been produced so soon after the event, therefore I couldn't have read it, could I ?

At the time of the Bristol / Basle accident, that Fount of All Knowledge, the Great British Public Leaning Against the Bar - only 1% of whom can even spell 'aviation' - were being wound up by the Press about Crew Fatigue, and there was a suggestion that there might be more legislation, as a result the BBC interviewer asked the airline M.D. the question.

I made my complaint at the time, before any facts were known, as a result of a totally unsupported, and emphatic, off the cuff remark by the M.D. obviously trying to give an early impression that his companies' actions with regard to crew rostering were blameless, maybe in the final analysis a perfectly accurate assessment, but at the time he couldn't possibly have known that - it was the concept that upset me, not necessarily the subsequent details, which might well prove otherwise.

To suggest that there was no issue of crew fatigue JUST BECAUSE the accident happened at Breakfast Time, and aforesaid GBP would accept that that is the time -after a restful nights' sleep of snoring and fornication - when one is at ones brightest and best, was arguably devious. I used my hypothetical example at the time, to show what could quite easily have been a fatigued crew starting that flight from Bristol at 'breakfast time'. Anyone with any knowledge of aviation, be it longhaul airline or Company charter work, would agree with that.

If there was to be discussion and legislation at Gov't. level, I wished my elected rep. to know FACTS that could affect crew rostering. Whether or not fatigue was or was not a factor in that particular instance, was irrelevant - at that time it was still a possibility, and to be dismissed so lightly on a public broadcast so soon after the accident was just plain WRONG. I don't blame that M.D. for trying, that's Politics and Big Business, but I had a contrary view and made my displeasure known where it might have had some effect, it clearly didn't, but at least I tried. QED.

Make whatever reply you wish, I'm not interested, the New Year has arrived, the sun is shining, the wind is calm, the water is sparkling - I've had a good nights rest and it's breakfast time, so I can't possibly be fatigued. I think I'll go fly my microlight around bits of New Zealand.

Good Day.

jjflyer - Thank you, no I wasn't referring to the Heathrow Vanguard but the Somerset Womens' Inst. disaster a few years later - can't even remember if that a/c was indeed a Vanguard, think it was, but it doesn't matter, the a/c type was immaterial to my remarks. Cheers. :ok:

[Obie]

Trappist...you're not a monk mate, you're an idiot and a fool!

And you wouldn't even know what CRM stands for!

And you're a jerk too Moonburn, for supporting a jerk like Trappist!

Strewth, what a bunch of turkeys you pommy pilots are!!

[Mister Geezer]

Obviously the New Years booze has not worn off..... :*

[ExSp33db1rd]

Mister Geezer - in a previous post when I was attacked by the Mad Monk, he explained how his Monasterys' "clever" friends ran a Brewery ! :ok:

( where's that 'ignore' key ? )

[Robert Woodhouse]

As a matter of interest, I was due to take BLEU Varsity 417 to LHR for fog flying that night. Unfortunately, during the pre-fog flying air test, the Elsan toilet at the rear of the aircraft broke loose and spilt its fluid all over the floor so the flight was cancelled.

Had we been there, that accident may never have happened - the usual RT chatter went something like "Whose that doing circuits and landings while we are holding?" "Its the Blind Landing Exerimental Unit" - "Diversion to Manchester please".

Also, the Vanguard and Viscount had the same VSI problem as the Canberra - the VSI initially went the oppopsite way to the nose of the aircraft i.e., lower the nose and it indicated a climb.

Sad that we spilt the Elsan that day.