Lancasters and 0.50 Cal Machine Guns

[beefix]

Here's a fast ball for all you experts out there. During WW2 were any Lancasters ever fitted with 0.50 cal machine guns? The reason I ask is quite complicted but it has something to do with mid air collision over Ruskington Fen in 1944.

[alvin-sfc]

Yes they were.They were used in the Rose turrets,as opposed to the usual Frazer Nash turrets which had 303 inch caliber guns.

[EGGP]

I recall seeing a photograph in one of the Ian Allan Lancaster at war series of a rear turret with two .50 calibre guns in it.

However this website says only a few upper turrets had these fitted.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/airgunners3.html


EGGP:8

[chiglet]

AFAIK the turrets were "Rose-Rice" pieces of kit. [That is according to an ex-colleague of mine]..who was a Lanc tail gunner...in a RR turret :ok:
watpiktch

[DucatiST4]

I think they were only ever fitted in the rear turret (two of them instead of the 4 .303's).

[forget]

Late in the war, the Lancaster's lack of defensive armament finally began to be corrected. Aircraft began to arrive with two 0.50 Cal. machine guns located in both the Rear and Mid-Upper turret positions. Although, the 0.50 caliber had a far greater range and more destructive hitting force than that of the 0.303, it still did not equal the German 20mm (0.75") cannons which were installed in most night-fighter aircraft.

http://www.ian.com.au/contact/lancaster5.htm

[clunckdriver]

Sugest you read "BOMBER OFFENSIVE "by Sir Arthur Harris, he goes into great detail on the problems of getting the 50call gun into service, during my time as a sprog on various RCAF outfits I was privaliged to listen to acounts from various ex Bomber Comand crews on the subject of the British "pea shotter" 303 guns, including the only Air Gunner "Ace" in the RCAF.

[Lancasterman]

Late in the production line of Canadian Mark X Lancs, the top turret was replaced after structural modifications with a Martin 250 turret.

[Brian Abraham]

The use of the .50 had been considered in the Air Staff’s 1938 “ideal bomber” paper. The supply of .50’s was never sufficient to allow changes on any large scale prior to 1944, when some Lancaster Is and IIIs were fitted with Frazer-Nash FN.82 or Rose Brothers tail turrets, mounting two of the American weapons. When Austin Motors became the last company to commence Lancaster production it was intended to produce a new version, the B.VII, with .50 guns in the dorsal (Martin turret) and tail turrets, the former being moved further forward than on earlier versions. The shortage of heavier guns (.50s) led to some aircraft being completed as B.1 (Interim) types with the existing turrets in the new position, but a few B.VIIs were completed before the end of the war.
Some Lancaster units (particularly the Canadian 6 Group) discarded the H2S in favour of ventral guns, either the original turret, or using either a single manually operated .50 or .303
Experiments were carried out with 20mm Hispano cannons in May 44.

[beefix]

Gentlemen. Thank you for all that information, it's been a great help. Now for the next question. Were the Lancaster's that had these 0.50 guns fitted allocated to certain Sqns within Bomber Cmd or were they issued to all and sundry? I'm trying to sort out what aircraft were involved in a mid-air collision over Ruskington Fen (near Lincoln) in 1944. A grand old gentleman I know witnessed the crash (he was about 13 at the time) and he maintains that it was two Lancasters. After that crash site was cleared he managed to pick up a few bits and pieces including a 0.50 round of ammo. Someone has now told him if that's the case then one of the aircraft involved must have been American as they were the only Air Force that used 0.50 guns. Hmm, I now know that's not the case. The gentleman seems to remember that one of the Lancasters was from East Kirby. So now I need to find out which Sqns had these guns fitted. My son has a Robert Taylor print depicting a 101 Sqn ABC (AirBorne Cigar) Lancaster at Ludford Magna, it appears to have only two barrels in the rear turret so I suspect these must be 0.50 guns.

[forget]

Try this Gold Mine! http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1073

Lancaster LM162 Information
Type Lancaster
Serial Number LM162
Squadron 50
X1D VN-Z
Operation Stuttgart
Date 1 12th September 1944
Date 2 13th September 1944

"Serial Range LL617 - LM296 This aircraft was one of 450 Lancasters ordered from Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Apr42 and delivered as 100 Mk.11 with Hercules XV1 engines and 350 Mk.1s with Merlin 24 engines initially installed. LM162 was a Mk.1 and was delivered to 50 Sqdn Jun44. LM162 took part in the Key Raid on Secqueville 7/8Aug44. when lost this aircraft had a total of 253 hours. Airborne 1852 12Sep44 from Skellingthorpe. Returned to base and whilst preparing to land was struck by another aircraft. The collision occurred at 1,200 feet in the Skellingthorpe circuit and the Lancaster crashed 0233 13Sep44 at North Greetwell, apx. 3 miles NE from the centre of Lincoln. F/O F.H.Hickling Sgt J.M.Nash Inj Sgt E.W.Glossop F/S D.C.Watson F/S A.C.Thompson Sgt W.H.Ponton Inj Sgt R.C.McCallum "

[forget]

Lancaster/Lancaster mid air in Lincoln area - but 1942.

http://www.doverwarmemorialproject.org.uk/Casualties/WWIInot/SurnamesG.htm

Edward Arthur Gardiner, 625967, was a Flight Engineer Sergeant in 9 Squadron, RAF.

He took off in Avro Lancaster W4182 WS-B from Waddington, Lincolnshire at 18:15 hours on 20th December 1942, for a raid on Duisburg, Germany. Soon after taking off Lancaster W4182 collided with another Lancaster in the darkness. Both bombers fell from the sky out of control and crashed on Bracebridge Heath, about 2 miles south of Lincoln. In a moment, 14 RAF airmen lost their lives.


Also; http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Aircrew%20Notice%20Board/aircrew%20notice%20board%2027.htm

1318564 Sergeant (W/O) E B (Ted) Cachart is looking for anyone who might remember him.or his crew members. Ted was involved in a mid air collision when their Lancaster III serial JB231 code EA-N from 49 Squadron took off from RAF Fiskerton at 2346 on 1/2.01.1944 on Ops to Berlin. As Ted put it they were extremely lucky as they survived a head on collision with another Lancaster, both with a full bomb load and approximately 65 % of the fuel load - unfortunately, the other crew were all killed as far as Ted knows. There were no collision reports from any survivors of aircraft lost or damaged that night.

[beefix]

Gentlemen,thank you for all the information. I will now wrap up this thread. On the night of the 2nd March 1945 (yes 1945 not 1944) two Lancasters,carrying out a fighter affiliation exercise, collided over Ruskington Fen Farm, Lincolnshire. Sadly there were no survivors. The aircraft involved were: ME 473 belonging to 207 Sqn from RAF Spilsby and ND 572 belonging to 57 Sqn from RAF East Kirby. This was the crash witnessed by my old friend.
The 207 Sqn aircraft was a nearly new Mk 111 which I am told had 0.50cal guns fitted to the rear turret. In 1995 the site was excavated and some human remains were recovered. This discovery allowed the positive identification of some unidentified remains that were recovered during the post crash clear up of the site in 1945.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Soon after taking off Lancaster W4182 collided with another Lancaster in the darkness. Both bombers fell from the sky out of control and crashed on Bracebridge Heath, about 2 miles south of Lincoln.

How ironic that B H was an AVRO repair site.

[Dan Winterland]

The Rose-Rice Turret

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/Rose16.jpg

It was fitted to Lancasters of 150 Sqn for testing in 1943. It subsequently enteres service in 1 Group being used by numbers 83, 101, 153 and 170 Sqns. About 180 aircraft had them fitted. It had improved hydraullic systems and gunsights over the standard Fraser Nash turret and the stopping power of the .50 cal. However, it had considerably less ammunitin and was very cold due to the large openening in the perspex. But it was popular with it's operators as it was roomy, and was easy to escape from. The operator just had to roll out of the hole. Also, the operator could wear a back pack parachute whereas with the Fraser Nash turret, the gunner had to clip on a seat type parachute to bail out.

Fraser Nash subsequently fitted twin .50 cals to it's turrets, but these didn't enter service until after the war.

Another developement of the Fraser Nash was the 'Village Greeen' or AGLT system where a gun laying radar guided the operator.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/180px-Village_Inn_AGLT_FN150_Turret.jpg

These turrets were also fitted to 101 Sqn Lancasters. 101 got special treatment because it carried the ABC or 'Airborne Cigar' jamming system. transmitters on the aircraft transmitted either engine noise from a microphone in the cowling or 'spoofing instructions' from an extra German speaking crewmember. 101 Sqn had particularly heavy losses - partly because they flew on nearly every raid.

The AGLT was not the same as the 'Monica' rearward facing radar fitted to some British bombers. this was not too successful as the Germans developed a receiver able to home in on Monica radars.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

From: http://www.tmquinn.net/airgunners/memorialroom/fn82.jpg

http://www.tmquinn.net/airgunners/memorialroom/fn82.jpg

[beefix]

Gentlemen, what can I say apart from thank you very much. I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made? I don't really want to kick this thread off again but all this is really interesting stuff. My old friend will donate the round to the small RAF Metheringham Museum located on what's left of the old RAF Metheringham airfield near Metheringham, Lincoln. My son (an RAF Regt Reserve NCO) will ensure the round is made safe. Here's the link to the ME 473, the 207 Sqn aircraft. Click on search and then type in ME 473, then click on find.

http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
A very interesting thread...I recall reading an anecdote whereby Harris is said, after the umpteenth delay to the procurement of 0.50 turrets, because of an argument about payment, to have told his staff, "Order 'em.They'll get paid anyway!"(or thereabouts) and Rose Bros began to churn them out.
regards
TDD

[S'land]

beefix:

I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made? I don't really want to kick this thread off again but all this is really interesting stuff.


In the few months that I have been a member of this board I have been amazed at the knowledge to be found here. I even at one stage thought of taking a screw (threaded type) off an aircraft and posting a photograph of it in this forum to see if anyone could identify it. I decided not to as I am certain that such a challenge would only last a few hours at best.

Joking aside, I feel sure that members of this forum will be able to give you full chapter and verse on the round in question.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made?".

Easy one. At the St Louis Ordnance Company, in 1943.

The .50 Cal has a long history. Designed at the end of WW1 by Browning, it uses the semi-recoil principle designed by Maxim. Too late to enter the war, it didn't enter service until 1923. It was used extensively during WW2, and is still in use in many countries. It simply can't be bettered in the support fire role. Almost universally known as the M2, it's known as the HMG (Heavy Machine Gun) in the British Army. There was recent footage of prince Harry firing one in Afghanistan on the telly.

It's so accurate, it was also developed into a sniper rifle during the Vietnam war. Also, in WW2 the standard .50cal ammo belt was 27' long. This is where the expression "The whole nine yards" comes from. If you give someone the "whole nine yards", you press the trigger until the gun stops firing.

[beefix]

Dan
Thanks for that. It's amazing to think that the round was made 65 years ago and it still looks as good as new. My son reckons that 0.50 machine gun is a really fine weapon. The ones he used in Iraq ( he's just returned after a six month tour at Basra Airbase) were of a 1940s vintage but as good as new, they are so accurate that you don't have to zero them in. Talk about a show stopper, imagine getting the " whole nine yards"
Well that about wraps it up. Thanks again to everybody, my old friend is so happy that it's all been sorted out, he remembers it as the night that the sky rained fire, machinery and men.
Kind Regards to all
Steve H

[Brian Abraham]

Every thing you want to know about .50 cal and head stamps here http://www.biggerhammer.net/barrett/faq.html

[Mike7777777]

With hindsight, removal of all guns (and gun crew) from the Lancs and provide support from Serrate Mossies was probably a more effective option than 0.5'' turrets. Grand Slam Lancs minus the Grand Slam were supposed to be a bit of step up in the performance department. Ah, the benefits of hindsight.

[Brian Abraham]

Mike - You raise an interesting point but as they say there is nothing new under the sun. The whole question of the effectiveness of defensive armament was raised in a paper in the Operational Research Section of Bomber Command in 1944. Essentially it argued that the defensive armament and gunners were simply heavier and created more drag than they were worth, and that the speed of the Lancaster could be increased by 50 mph by dispensing with guns. Its payload would also be increased, so fewer aircraft would be needed to carry the same tonnage of bombs, the faster aircraft would be less liable to interception, and casualties per aircraft would be lower when they were destroyed. On this question, as on many other technical matters, it was simply impossible to gather enough data in wartime to present a convincing case for change to the hardline bomber enthusiasts in Command HQ at High Wycombe. There were numerous crews in Britain whose gunners had saved them by driving off an assailant, or more commonly by spotting the attacker in time for evasive action to be effective. Many more crews had found the protection and observation of the gunners inadequate, but often these men were not in Britain - they were in Germany, either in captivity or dead.
(The Great Book of WWII Airplanes)

[Load Toad]

I'm trying to remember where I read it (I thought it was Bomber Crew by James Taylor and Martin Davidson) - but I recall something about Bomber Harris saying that fitting heavier firepower was not worth it as gunners could only see a certain distance anyway... Further I recall reading that gunners usually preferred to spot a night fighter and advise the pilot to take avoiding action - rather than risk firing (and drawing attention) unless absolutely necessary. Sound feasible?

[S'land]

Further I recall reading that gunners usually preferred to spot a night fighter and advise the pilot to take avoiding action - rather than risk firing (and drawing attention) unless absolutely necessary. Sound feasible?


Don't know about feasible, but it sounds like common sense to me. Better to avoid the possibility of being shot at than risk being killed. Also more effective from Bomber Command's point of view. If an aircraft is shot down it needs replacing, if damaged it needs repairing. If the crew are injured or killed they also need replacing.

[Lucky Six]

It is interesting because in the Dam Busters movie there are two scenes where you can see two machine guns in the rear turret. The first is in the middle of the movie where an aircraft is being armed with ammunition being passed through the rear door (not sure if they are .50 cal) and the second is when a Lanc is flying the approach to the Eder Dam.

[Dan Winterland]

That's possibly because when they filmed the Dambusters, they used Lincolns for some of the shots. Look carefully, you will spot them. Or they were Lanc Mk VIIs which came into service after WW2 (the film was made post war) and which had the twin .50 Fraser Nash turret fitted.

[doubledolphins]

Further to what has been said I once had an old Master Aircrew Air Gunner on the flight deck on a flight back from Cyprus. He regailed us with all sorts of war stories as we looked down on his old targets on a crystal clear night. He told us that most of his "kills" (or all of them) had been using ventral fitted 50 cals. Fitted to counter the upwards fireing guns fitted in certain night fighter JU 88s. I had no reson to doubt the fellow and I will alway regard it as an honour to have flown him back from holiday.

[Dan Winterland]

Just watched the Dambusters - again! Some of the Lancs have the Rose turret, not the Fraser Nash. And when Guy Gibson is watching the aircraft arrive, the last one to land is a Lincoln. The film was made in 1955, I suppose Lancs were getting scarce by then.

[Centaurus]

and that the speed of the Lancaster could be increased by 50 mph by dispensing with guns.

As the speed of attacking fighters would almost certainly be 50 knots or more than the cruising speed of a Lancaster (especially in a dive quarter attack)then the extra speed of the Lancaster without armament would be useless.
In any case knowing a bomber was unarmed would encourage the enemy fighter to get in real close before firing. From vague memory when I flew Lincolns in 1953 with a 20mm dorsal turret and two 0.5's in the front and rear turret, there was little significant IAS differences from other Lincolns I flew with no turret and other guns removed.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

I read somewhere that the Americans tried using B17 gunships, that carried only armements and no bomb load. The idea was to have them fly in the bomber stream to give extra protection. The idea wasn't a success though partly due to decreased performance.

IIRC, they had double dorsal turrets, and it's most likely I read about them here :}

[Mike7777777]

As the speed of attacking fighters would almost certainly be 50 knots or more than the cruising speed of a Lancaster (especially in a dive quarter attack)then the extra speed of the Lancaster without armament would be useless.

If the Lanc gains 30 knots of cruising speed then the ability of the pursuing Me110 or Ju88 to overhaul the Lanc is substantially reduced; additionally, a minimal speed advantage means that the ability to move along a bomber stream picking off targets is reduced.

[Kitbag]

I read somewhere that the Americans tried using B17 gunships


The YB40 was a modified B17 intended to escort bomber packages. Only 25 were produced in two batches. The idea failed because once the bombers had dropped their load the escorts could not match their performance

[Load Toad]

Was it also the case with the modified B-17 that they were scattered across the formation? Or was it that they formed one cell within a formation? If you were an attacking fighter would you have been able to spot a 'gunship'?

[Brewster Buffalo]

If you were an attacking fighter would you have been able to spot a 'gunship'?

I suspect not. The americans claimed at the time many german fighters shot down by the B-17/B-24 gunners but I don't know whether there has been any research into the actual figures.

Certainly all those guns blazing away would have been very off putting and the germans did start to use unguided rockets before closing for gun attacks.

[Gordon Fraser]

I have just reviewed an old video purchased by me in Canada in the mid-eighties. It is called "Nightbombers" and claims to be the only colour footage of Lancasters actually filmed during the war. It was filmed and directed in 1943/4 by Air Cdre H.I. Cozens, CB,AFC and shows operations from RAF Hemswell of Nos 150 and 170 Squadrons No 1 Group Bomber Command. At the beginning of the film there is footage of maintenance on Lancasters with very detailed coverage of the actual installation of twin 50 machine guns in the tail. It actually shows the complete turret being taken out by a vehicle mounted crane to the aircraft and placed in position.