Merged: 457 Visa

[ACMS]

ok, time to keep it civil and nice like:ok:

Lets bring it on chaps.......................


And don't lock the thread Tid

[ACMS]

Let me be as succint as I possibly can Tidbinbilla:

As an Aussie working O/S for a Legecy carrier ( cx ) I have no intention of coming back to work for an Aussie airline, ever

I took my skills overseas after 1989 to keep in a job. My skills were required because they couldn't get any locals to do the work, FULL STOP, end of story. I'm still here

I TOTALLY object to Non- Aussies being GIVEN 457 Visa's or other such things to come to MY country and TAKE MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS jobs.

there is absolutley no evidence that there is a shortage of SKILLED PILOT's in Aussie to do the job. YOU KNOW IT, WE KNOW IT

so to all those foreign Pilot's just champing at the bit to TAKE A job from my family and Friends I say................NO WAY

Get a Visa FIRST................come to Aussie.............THEN APPLY.

It's a very fair system if you care to use it.

Care to use it?

or do you want to short cut the system instead?

[tail wheel]

Sorry Mate - had enough of you in the last thread regarding 457 Visas! :mad:

And I don't think Tids needs your advice on Moderating threads in Dunnunda! :yuk:

Not that you can see either this thread or my post! :}

Tail Wheel

[GE90115BL2]

WHAT?

You must be kidding us TID

This is an extremely important subject effecting ALL Aussie Pilots and probably you and you sweep it under the carpet?

YOU WILL HAVE TO GIVE A BETTER REASON THAN THAT FOR BANNING ACMS.

90% of us agree with him.

What happened to freedom of speech and truth in Aviation hey?

[tail wheel]

Oh, dear........... Siamese Twins!!!!! :mad:

Tail Wheel

[GE90115BL2]

yes that right it me.............

you still haven't given a reason for banning me??????????

still waiting Tid man

[tail wheel]

Neither of the Siamese Twins, ACMS or GE90115BL2 are banned but are, for the present, excluded from this thread.

Tail Wheel

[Pedota]

Good call moderators . . . thanks!

[Spotlight]

ACMS

Amateur's!

Why bother with them, it seems?

[Kangaroo Court]

It does not seem fair to restrict valid arguments because you don't happen to agree. In fact to not have a good blue once in a while with a mate might seem somewhat, "unAustralian".

There's too much banning going on. This isn't the same PPrune it used to be. Are you all scared of lawyers?

[Kangaroo Court]

I actually agree with the 457s in principle, but where are they going to come from...

[dodgybrothers]

I have friends that are qualified (large quantities of jet time) and are in oz that are trying to get into one star. They cannot get a look in either through colllusion by the airlines or some other event that occured some years ago.

Either way, there are people here that can do the job, how does the govt justify the automatic giving of visas when all the resources have not been exhausted? It was only a few short months ago the airlines were denying there was a shortage, now they have cried poor and the govt have knee jerked without any research or justification and given them what they want.

There is also one undeniable fact, for 10 years (probably more but lets say 10) no airline has spent any more money on training than they legislatively had to. Now as the old grey mare is making her way slowly out the gate, the airlines move to shut it, by opening tin pot academies that are in more sh!t than a Werribee duck, MPLs and cadet programs that wont bear fruit for years.

The mining sector have realised that to get quality people they have to pay top money. How many 457 visas have the mining industry requested for their basic operations? None because they still get people by paying the right money.

Groups such as AIPA and AFAP should be putting the same amount of pressure on the govt as the airlines are and trying to stop what has already started.

[ferris]

PAF.
I think that the article quoted actually reinforces ASMS' argument. It describes REX's shortage as due to pilots LEAVING. So they used to have enough pilots, yet the question of WHY they are leaving or WHY they cant attract replacements is studiously ignored?

You continually quote dry economic theory which,, I am sure, most readers here can see through. As T&Cs have fallen to the point where a career as a pilot is not seen as desirable anymore, the result (according to your own arguments) is that T&Cs should rise until the supply and demand is balanced. What is actually happening (and this is where the real world infringes on theory) is that an attempt is being made to use 457 visas (or whatever version they are particularly called in this case) to manipulate the supply side of labour by increasing the labour pool using said visas. If you cannot see the problem with that, then further discussion is pointless.

For Kangaroo Court; if you use 457 visas to cherry pick which parts of the labour market you will manipulate, those particular professions suffer manipulation that distorts the market forces which operate in them. ie. Pilot T&Cs are artificially suppressed at the expense of aspiring/existing pilots for the gain of foreign nationals wanting to change their address (a non-economic gain). IMHO, that only exacerbates the problem, perpetuating the barriers to entry of that profession for Australians, and fails to address the cause (a symptomal solution). Ultimately, detrimental to the country on a number of levels- not the least of which is the delaying of the correction in ticket pricing (which must come sooner or later- maybe PAF can tell us why, although with the selectivity applied to theorical argument, I am not so sure).

[Kangaroo Court]

I like your agrument also...

I don't think there are many immigrant pilots to be had with a worldwide shortage though. I am working overseas right now and we can't seem to find the "right" people either.

[ferris]

That is a big part of the problem with the way these visa are being used- you WILL attract pilots, but not on economic grounds. South Africans, for example, will avail themselves of the opportunity for reasons that have nothing to do with economics, thus pure economics is not at play. The real world is like that, hey PAF?

[parabellum]

It has to be remembered that QANTASLink will want pilots that will fit into their operation smoothly and they will set their requirements accordingly going to great lengths to avoid being accused of discrimination. Simply because there is an Australian pilot with a CPL and 500 hours of bush flying doesn't mean that they have to take this lad ahead of a 457 with relevant type and weight and hours experience who fits the advertisement. I think that our two banned colleagues were suggesting that the Australian CPL should get first crack at the job, even if not qualified, very unrealistic.

[RedTBar]

The basis of the problem that we face is inadequate management from past and present Government's at both Federal and State levels.

The shortage we face not only in pilots but other skills as well shows a serious lack of forward planning.

An insurance assessor on Thursday told me that within 5 years there will not be enough Panel and Smash repairs to do the work that is required in Australia.There is also a huge shortage of diesel mechanics not to mention Doctors,nurses etc.

Bringing people in on a 457 visa to work may be a short term solution to our problem but it is not the long term answer.

If we continue this way within 20 years Australia will not be able to produce anything more sophisticated than a toasted sandwich from the corner shop.

We will be a nation of consumers

[Capt Wally]

This country is in a lot of trouble aviation wise (otherwise as well) it's so obvious & we all pretty much know it so I would suggest (& this is just my opinion only) whilst we self destruct that everyone hang onto what job they have & dig in, I feel we ain't seen the real effects of this total 'swept under the carpet' problem. The likes of ACMS although very direct is just an Eg. of how some pilots feel, no more no less.
The allowance of 'imports' by this Govt thru commercial pressure (the ones that own the Pollies) has effectively ruined many an industry in Oz (fruit for one) & i feel that we are heading down the same track now in our very fragile industry. Remember the likes of GD & the senior Pollies have nothing to fear their approaching the end of their careers (if where lucky), it's the ugly legacy left behind we must flounder in for many years yet.

And no I don't have an answer to all this and nobody else in here has shown likewise either, if I did have the answer I'd be richer the 'tricky dicky' !:bored:

Just my opinion obvioulsy


CW

p.s..'dodgybrothers'.....couldn't agree more with yr post, I know a few too that simply can't get in to the airlines and are currently flying very responsible jobs, yep there is no pilot shortage just a shortage of forsight!

[ferris]

PAF. You are very adept at avoiding the reality that pilot T&Cs must rise.

If, as you say, it's a people shortage driving this issue, why then not bring in lots more people. Not PILOTS on 457 visas, just more PEOPLE? People with/without skills who can fill jobs at the 'bottom of the market'.

If there is no skills crisis, just bring in immigrants, full stop. There should be no need for 457 visas, as the market will function and provide T&Cs that will attract the right applicants at the bottom of the aviation industry (or even at a level commensurate with modern thinking ie directly into jet cockpits).

[desmotronic]

Frozo,
This is not about protectionism. If any pilot wants to secure residency or become an Australian citizen and have legal right to work in this country then they are completely free to apply and jump through all the hoops like everyone else. Spare us the first year neo classical economic drivel. Why should airlines be able to import type rated foreigners just so they can save a few bucks on training their existing workforce? There are plenty of Autralian pilots here and overseas to fill any positions.

Parabellum,
Simply because there is an Australian pilot with a CPL and 500 hours of bush flying doesn't mean that they have to take this lad ahead of a 457 with relevant type and weight and hours experience who fits the advertisement.

If there are no 457 visas they will. Either that or employ one of the more experienced Aussies trying to get a look in. Non sibi sed suis.
Qantaslink would solve all their crew problems and save themselves buckets of cash if they provided a career path into mainline. Sorry mate but you reek of skygod syndrome. Howzat for provocation?

Moderators,
If you are going to ban anyone it should be Frozo. He claims to be a pilot by occupation yet clearly is not. 2000 posts from a walter mitty without a life is more than enough.

[RedTBar]

With unemployment at around 4% it's not a skills shortage, it's a people shortage.
Like all statistics the unemployment figure such as today's of around 4% does not show the entire picture but is one that politicians love to boast about.
You can bend anything to your way of spin if you want to.Is the government helping by education and other means to put Australians in the jobs that matter or that they really want.

A friend of mine who lives in NSW has a boy that wants to be a diesel mechanic.His son has to travel something like 400 km's to go to TAFE,spend a week or two then travel 400 km's back home to work where his apprenticeship is located.

He does not live out the back of Bourke but on the coast not far from the Queensland border not far from major regional centres.It is insane that there is no TAFE college closer than that.However,cost cutting from successive governments have put paid to that.

Perhaps it is also time we look at the financial requirments for Uni both from the students side and of the uni's operational side.The uni's are allowing students to have a lower HSC pass mark if they pay up front because they need the money and then cashed up overseas students grab a spot that could have gone to an Australian.

Population does have an impact but education and Government assistance has a bigger impact.With Australian airlines sending aircraft overseas for anything from maintenance to a spray of paint it is not difficult to see the demand for trades and skilled people in Australia diminishing.

The 457 Visa solution is short term but another approach is needed for the longer term.

PAF,maybe another solution is to encourage people to have more children if we have a people shortage.

Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.

[Capt Wally]

..........................Other countries look 20 years or more down the track but all our politicians seem to do is look no further than the next election.


That is so true 'RedTBar' Well said.

We Australians are clever people & passionate but we need strong leadership in all area's of social & economic structure, that takes time & foresight to put into place & complete. Probably longer than any one Govt would be in power for. For this country to be prosperous we will have to hurt, hurt a lot more tha we are now I believe.



CW

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Why do you guys/gals even bother responding to Frozo (Troll IMHO)

I can not see how wanting Australian Pilot jobs to go to Australian Pilots is such an issue.

If these Aviation companies are trying to fight presenting sustainable market rate packages to qualified Australians, stuff em, let them go broke.

Where has ones sense of national pride gone ?, we should not under any circumstance be importing skilled labour into Australia whilst ever there is a willing and able Australian ( by birth or immigration ) to do the job.

Same should go for foreign aid, why should we send our money overseas in the form of foriegn aid when Australians are sleeping on the street.

[blade root]

A few years back I was on the EBA committee for a National company.

The company's operation had been having difficulties securing new pilots due to pay and conditions, so to help retain and secure new pilots we submitted a pay claim.

The result, company imported pilots who wanted to gain Australian Visa's and the pilot group got screwed over.

I don't have a problem with importing labour if they do it for the same money and it doesn't impinge on the pay and conditions of current employees.

I think the government should freeze company 457 applications if that company is undergoing EBA negs.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Frozo, as an 'economist', you make a really good military pilot.:D

I'll say it again - life on civvy street is going to be a real eye opener for you.:ugh:

[Chronic Snoozer]

PAF - you sound like an academic. Chock full of theory - of no practical use. Get rid of your military blankie.

I agree Capt. Wally - the Summit 2020 is barely the future. Blink and we're there. I'd be more inclined to go for the 2050 or 2100 Summit - more time to discuss what to talk about.

[desmotronic]

military pilot

That explains everything!

Frozo,
Simple classical theory is only one very narrow way to look at the labour market. There is also large bodies of work on human relations, industrial democracy, judicial and statutory determinism, technological determinism, bargaining and importantly distribution of power and conflict resolution. You can check out Marxist theory on the labour market, he had a few ideas too. :}

[Another Number]

Okay, before this thread crashes and burns, I'll give up being subtle and state the obvious:

A large part of the community made it clear recently that putting up with reduced pay & conditions in the name of "shareholder value" should not be a national goal.

Too often Australians, maybe because we don't have a feverish nationalism, accept the practices of other countries, whilst pretending there is such a thing as a "level playing field".

Sure, other countries will, at times, beg for Australians to join their workforce ... and at other times, or in other countries, Australians won't be given the time of day.

But that doesn't mean we can't employ fully qualified Australians first - especially when the only reason he's not getting a look-in is that he wants at least a slight semblance of fairness, and perhaps the maintenance of decent conditions.

I've seen it in other professions too... open the floodgates, the shareholders love it for the short term ... then, the inevitable overcapacity and plunging conditions.

{You'll note however, that some, such as the legal profession, are smart enough to regulate and control supply ... they don't bow to nonsensical arguments about economic rationalism and the level bloody playingfield!}

And I think a few of us recall that the aviation industry is bloody notorious for its cycles, peaks and troughs. Crying wolf in the name of a few cents higher dividend (and a few mil extra for GD) may be so beautifully timed as to coincide with a global downturn - and what will that mean?

And yes ... those crying about the "lack" of pilots could spend (invest) a few cents per share now in improving the training situation (including cost) and get a better long-term result.

Or maybe outfits like ASA do have the right idea when they gallivant off around the world, rather than looking in their own backyard and actually spending on training, and trying not to completely alienate their bemusingly loyal workforce!



... or, of course, we could once again join the race to the bottom! Sure suits the CEOs ... I feel another big bonus coming on!

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Ferris, thanks for your first couple of responses, very insightful. You can call it a skills shortage or a people shortage but if you look at the jobs generation Z want to do I don't think flying jets is up there. There are no doubt many reasons for this but T & C's would be a significant part of it.To address the problem by reducing T & C's seems a rather strange way to attract newcomers and this has happened recently with a number of the advocates of 457's.

The problem with 457's as others have pointed out is they are generally a transient group, they may not like it here and leave, may move jobs within the country or chase bigger dollars in the next shortage hotspot. Either way your best way of gaining and retaining a skilled workforce is to use people who live where they work and pay them enough to not want to go elsewhere and have a lifestyle that they would like.

[hoss]

VOTE 1 DODGYBROTHERS representative of Australian Pilots.

ps.Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower, I really like your thinking as well mate but dodgy beat you to the 'submit reply' and I can personally vouch that he is a top bloke.

:)

[parabellum]

If they are recruiting in South Africa and offering a 475 visa you can bet on few, if any, ever going back to SA. 90% will be New Australians within a few years.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Izzit oke, Oz is lakka man. Yes the Afrikanners would stay and why not if they move to YPPH they can continue to call it the eighth province.

[The Wawa Zone]

Yo...

Money. Yep, pilots want it, management wants it, shareholders want it..
And whoever has the power gets the money.

The government's position (justified by the best economic theory available) is that anything that prevents wage increases is good as that prevents inflation, whether it be pilot's wages or plumber's wages. So, there is little scope for writing to your MP about the issue, although try it and see what sort of concise reply you get.

Should companies be concerned about pilot turnover and pilot shortages ? Of course - the more of both the better, folks !
Turnover allows the pilot's next company to offer him/her a B scale or similar package; lack of turnover prevents this opportunity plus creates a more cohesive pilot group, and you don't want those outcomes as that would prevent the lowering of the benchmark for the entire "industry".
Shortages are what appear in a market at A PRICE, as someone pointed out, but the low number of purchasers allows the perception of a shortage at ANY price. The fix is importing labour, increasing supply, and clearing the market at a lower, lower price !

So there ya go; 457 visas - good for the industry, good for the shareholders, and good for Australia. So, back to the first paragraph; who has the power ? And who's going to get the money ? And who does it (the plumbing trade, I mean) because the just love it ?

Me, cynical ?? Never !

xx The Zone.

[Spotlight]

I think ACMS is vindicated, by the discussion.

[Capt Wally]

I've just been gazing into my crystal ball here.

Today: say about 40 years from now.(Typical)

ALL pilots currently flying where trained thru the new system at the time (2008) MPL & Cadetship. They are all on low wages, work for Co's with shocking T&C's not unlike slave labour camps way back in WW2(current population only ever read about that one) & fly A/C that are superior in techno stuff to the point where the pilots (now actually called system minders) are slowly being removed as they are technically no longer required.
All sounds fanciful I know, but back at the start of the 19th Century flight itself sounded pretty much the same to!:bored:

What I believe we are seeing now these days is the 'cross-over' period where we have the old (current experienced pilots) who came up thru the ranks the traditional way & are used to having a structured career path & being paid for it. And now the new pilots (MPL & Cadets for Eg.) who are entering this field a different way because the world as we know it is changing know no difference, & are the future. Like that saying in the film "Howard Hughes"..................."the way of the future", enter the likes of GD & his 'in the pocket Pollies' !

Food for thought, but for now we must continue the pressure the best way we can until that future is with us by making sure the boys at home are 'fed' first! It's a cruel world, survival of the fittest in the animal kingdom is the single most important gene that makes up all of us!

Personal opinion only as usual


CW

[Rabbitwear]

What a joke , there is many guys overseas who could take all the pilot positions in Aus. At the moment not enough are coming home , so what are the airlnes supposed to do, all the guys i know who want to go home are doing so the pay is much better in Aus than the ME and asia , if you dont come home now you probably never will so the 457 visas will be used for jobs that you could have had.

[bushy]

Maybe those who want the jobs with Australian airlines should go to govt job search agencies. That way many people would learn more about the real situation.

[desmotronic]

i say again you are not a pilot

[obie2]

I'm not that sure that Desmos attitude is all that good either for "the next and curent generation of locals!" :=

[desmotronic]

it's spelt champagne petal

[desmotronic]

Mate i was just trying to show you that there is more than one school of economic thought in this world. They all have something to offer if you really want greater understanding. :zzz:

[Trustworthy]

Forget Marx or the uninitiated, would have thought 457's or any other measures designed to increase the skills of all pilots down under made sense for all.

[ferris]

Aaaahh... how exactly do 457 visa entrants "increase the skill of all pilots"?

I was warned that PAF was a troll, and after this last piece of obsfucation, I have to agree. I thought I'd gently shown you that an economic purist would abhor the concept of 457 visas, as all they do is delay the inevitable workings of the market (as evidenced by the quoted studies showing immigration has no effect on what would've happened anyway). The REAL WORLD impinges on reading theories, studies and data analysis etc ....and I'll be very clear about this, because this is the bit that you learn in the "big school", not the lecture hall.........because studies such as those quoted are only meaningful when looking at large samples over long periods.
THAT MEANS you are not thinking about the young people in the next year or so, who may only number 50, who will miss out on a career as a pilot because some overpaid airline executive arsehole decided that 457 visas might earn him his bonus this year.

But those 50 young people will remember. It's not communism, smart alec, it's humanism. Maybe only on a small scale, but clearly some people are passionate enough to still care about the bigger implications.

Here endith the lecture.

[excellr8]

QF advert on an emplyment website for SIM instructors. Interesting note contained within ad.

Extract:

'We will assist to sponsor you on a 457 Visa'



look up the job ID number 12530386 on seek.com.au.......Globalisation works both ways!!!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Isn't 'open shop' a gymnastic move identified by the inimitable Roy and HG at the 2000 Olympics, and is closely followed by flat bag?

[4PW's]

Question for the moderator: what defining line enabled you to assess ACMS as a threat to this thread, while maintaining PAF's privileges?

I think you're playing favorites, and you don't like hearing that.

------------------------------------


You just don't get it! :ugh:

ACMS was not sanctioned for the opinions he holds, but for his abusive, childish posts. He has since acknowledged he could have stated his case in a more acceptable manner and is free to post in all threads.

PAF has an opinion and stated his case in a non abusive manner. He has not "crossed the line" but if he does, will receive the same sanctions as ACMS, without fear or favour.

Perhaps you need to understand that each of our quarter million PPRuNe users hold varying views and some of those views may be vastly different than your own. It is for this very reason PPRuNe is the success it is.

Whilst PPRuNe is not a democratic free-for-all, I have no problem with your claim of Moderator bias. I trust you have no problem with me simply ignoring your claim?

Tail Wheel

[desmotronic]

A recruitment survey has found a critical shortage in professional occupations could lead to wages growth of 5 to 7 per cent in Australia in the next year.

The survey by the global recruitment firm Michael Page International has found there are not enough professional workers to satisfy demand, despite the lowest unemployment rate in more than 30 years.

The firm's managing director, Phillip Guest, says the tight labour market is part of a global trend.

Mr Guest says employers are losing valuable professional staff to lucrative overseas markets.

"Ninety-one per cent of them are saying their staff numbers will remain constant or will increase in the coming year, so essentially what's happening is that competition for skilled workers is intensifying," he said.

"As a result of that added competition, employers are having to address salaries as a way of retaining employees."

Mr Guest says government and business need to offer better incentives for staff to stay in Australia and avoid a further tightening of the labour market.

"We're seeing a particularly high pressure in the professional occupation groups and they can range from a variety of different sectors or occupation groups," he said.

"The key ones are obviously accounting, finance and management, IT and sales and marketing."




............ and many pilots are still getting paid a pittance.

[desmotronic]

Dark Side Of Guest Labour - 457 Visas Are Loose And Open To Abuse
Type: Union News Subject: Nursing Issues
4 October 2006


Labor's immigration spokesperson Tony Burke The use of temporary skilled migration, especially the use of the so-called 457 Visa, has become a hot public issue, with frequent media expos`s of workplace exploitation. This darker side is also found in nursing but with a chronic labour shortage these visas also fill a need.
Unions have voiced concerns that the federal government's handling of its temporary worker visa program is creating a tier of second-class workers in Australia who have no rights and are vulnerable to being underpaid, mistreated and abused.

In one case, unions exposed unsafe and exploitative working conditions for around 50 Chinese workers at Wetherill Park in western Sydney. The workers were building a $60 million tissue-paper mill.

They used equipment that did not meet safety specifications, they did not have the appropriate licences to operate vehicles and were allowed to carry out dangerous tasks. One man was seen welding a pipe he was tied to while swaying high in the air dangling from a crane.

Union concerns are backed by researchers at the University of Western Sydney's Centre for Innovation and Industry Studies, who have published a highly critical report of the temporary skilled migration system. Among its concerns are:



the government is using the scheme to push down local wages
the principle of equal work for equal pay will be undermined
overseas temporary workers are in a difficult position in the event of industrial conflict between employers on whom they are completely dependent
restrictions on the movement of 457 Visa holders is dangerously close to 'bonded labour'.
The report details the dramatic rise in the use of the visas.

40,000 people are expected to be granted 457 Visas this year, up 43% on 28,000 visas last year and a 66% increase on 2003-04. There are now 75,000 people in Australia working on these visas.

Although employers must pay award rates or set minimum wages of between $41,000 and $51,000 per year, depending on location and skill level, they are not obliged to pay Australian market rates and they no longer have to advertise locally before they recruit overseas.

'The program should be overhauled to force employers to seek Australian labour before looking offshore, and to pay market rates,' said Labor's immigration spokesperson Tony Burke.

Immigration Minister Amanda Vanstone has admitted that importing foreign workers helps keep wages down. She has publicly defended the foreign guest worker scheme saying it stopped unions from pushing excessive wage demands.


............

[desmotronic]

Fixing the 457 visa for temporary foreign workers
Published Friday, 8th September, 2006
by Bob Kinnaird
The subclass 457 visa is Australia's main temporary work visa for so-called skilled workers. The visa has become a highly contentious political issue. The Federal Labor Opposition and the ACTU vehemently oppose this visa in its current form, arguing that it threatens jobs and training opportunities for Australians, undermines wages and working conditions and exploits foreign (non-resident) workers. Both portray 457 visas as part of the government's broader industrial relations strategy.

Growth in 457 visas has been so rapid that in 2006-07, for the first time in Australia's history, there will probably be more temporary skilled 457 visas granted than skilled permanent residence visas. This is a deliberate Federal government strategy. It has frozen the permanent skilled migrant intake at 2004-05 levels, and opted to aggressively promote employer-sponsored temporary visas as the best way to meet Australia's skilled labour needs.

The projected number of 457 visas granted in 2005-06 is around 40,000 primary applicants and 71,000 including accompanying family members. This is a massive increase of 43 per cent over 2004-05, with even more likely in 2006-07.

457 visa impacts on jobs and training opportunities in ICT

The 457 visa program (along with other factors) has contributed to greatly reduced demand for IT graduates since 2001 and poor graduate job outcomes leading to plummeting enrolments by young Australians in IT courses.

Since 2001 the proportion of Australian computer science graduates unable to find full-time work has been at record or near-record levels (25-30 per cent) and enrolments by Australian students in university IT courses have fallen by probably 50 per cent, to less than 9,000. There are now fewer Australians commencing IT courses than in 1996 when the Howard government first came to office.

On June 30 2004, there were an estimated 5,000 foreign nationals on 457 visas working in ICT in Australia, including 2,200 people under age 30 working as computing professionals. At the same time, some 2,000 computer science graduates and postgraduates were unable to find full-time work. On the available evidence, some of these ICT workers on 457 visas have become substitutes for Australian IT graduates.

457 salaries and market rates

If 457 wages and salaries are undercutting market rates, these visas are not only putting downward pressure on Australian wages but are effectively a government subsidy to some employers, giving them an unfair competitive advantage.

It is not possible to determine if actual salaries paid to 457 visa-holders are undercutting market rates. This is because the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (DIMA) does not even collect information on actual base salaries paid by employers to 457 visa-holders through its compliance monitoring system or any other regular means.

The DIMA 457 compliance monitoring system only asks employers whether 457 visa-holders are being paid the original base salary determined when visa nominations were first approved.




.............

[desmotronic]

Transport Workers Union of Australia News and Updates


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Commonwealth refuses to act on 457 visas

When presented with evidence of 457 visas being used to lower wages for Australians, the Commonwealth Minister for Workplace Relations today pledged only to ‘monitor’ the issue.

At a Workplace Relations Ministers’ Council in Melbourne, Kevin Andrews heard concerns expressed by NSW, Queensland and Western Australia, but refused to take effective action to stop the rorting.

NSW Minister for Industrial Relations, John Della Bosca, said the combination of 457 visas and Work Choices was being used to;

· lower wages,
· exploit overseas workers who were unaware of Australian wages and conditions, and
· allow employers and the Commonwealth to escape any responsibility to train our workforce.

“The number of temporary workers increased by 45 per cent in 2005/06,” Mr Della Bosca said.

“The Commonwealth Minister was clearly unaware of his own Government’s agreement to allow AMEX to import Japanese speaking personnel at nearly $6,000 below the Commonwealth’s gazetted minimum salary.

“Kevin Andrews’ claim that this is an immigration matter is buck-passing.

“These people are not immigrating, that’s the whole point. They are being brought in because they will work at rates below the Australian market for those skills.

“The reason AMEX can’t attract Australians is because they want skilled people to accept a salary $15,000 below the average – and the Howard/Debnam Work Choices system is helping them to rob Australians of these jobs.

“457 visas are being used here just to undercut the going rate.

“People working in Australia should get Australian rates of pay,” Mr Della Bosca said.

“Without this fundamental standard, overseas workers are exploited, we lose local jobs and there’s no incentive to train Australians,” Mr Della Bosca said.

“The combination of Work Choices and 457 visas is bad news for Australia and for the low-wage temporary staff brought here to do a job cheaply and then shipped home.

“Before Work Choices, there were decent minimum standards that could be enforced.

“Nurses on 457 visas employed by the NSW Government have pay and conditions supported by a state award, backed up by the powerful Industrial Relations Commission.

“In contrast, workers who fall under the Commonwealth’s defective Work Choices system have virtually no safety nets, no powerful independent umpire and no way of negotiating genuine Australian pay rates and conditions.

“We have local labour willing to work and willing to learn – they should not be undercut by a Commonwealth government allowing guest workers on low pay rates.”





........................:oh:

[desmotronic]

[QUOTE][Government to 'speed up' 457 visa processing


Graham Matthews
29 March 2008


On March 20, the Sydney Morning Herald reported that federal immigration minister Chris Evans had agreed to “speed-up” the processing of 457 visas, which allow bosses to hire skilled workers from overseas to fill alleged skill shortages.


The government’s move comes against opposition from the union movement, which argues that the 457 visa scheme has led to massive abuse of overseas workers. Workers on the visas are paid less and enjoy far fewer conditions than Australian workers in the same industry.

Under the scheme, bosses may apply to employ skilled workers for up to four years, providing they are paid the statutory minimum ($41,850 for most trades). Employers are not required to provide workers with award rates of pay — let alone the same wages and conditions that unionised staff in the same industry may have negotiated.

Guest workers employed on 457 visas have few rights. When the boss decides that the worker is no longer required, the worker must find an alternative employer within 28 days or leave the country. In many cases, skilled workers employed under the 457 visa scheme are highly exploited — working longer hours for less money and in much safe conditions than workers with full citizenship rights.

Speaking to ABC Radio on March 25, Professor Phil Lewis, a “labour market expert” from the University of Canberra, argued that immigration department statistics showed that workers employed on 457 visas were not being paid less than workers with full citizenship rights — “in fact the averages show they’re getting paid more”, he argued. “So what it seems to indicate is that employers are actually doing the right thing and employing people for the wage commensurate for their skill and that wage is very similar to what they’d be paying Australian workers.”

However Andrew Ferguson, NSW state secretary of the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, argues that the statistics were misleading. “It’s not the truth”, Ferguson told Green Left Weekly. “The methodology [of the immigration department study] is wrong in the calculation of average wage rates. The immigration department figures take an average across the industry, including trades people and apprentices. But these are skilled workers and should only be compared with other skilled workers.
“The study also doesn’t take account of wage variations across cities and regional areas. In many regional areas, rates of pay are lower than the cities, yet most of the [457] jobs are in the city. Workers employed on 457 visas must have higher minimum standards and rates of pay. Workers are entitled to market rates of pay rather than the statutory minimum.”

Ferguson said that “The market rate of pay that skilled workers can demand is substantially higher. Employment of workers on the lower rate undermines pay and conditions throughout the industry.” He argued that strict limitations should be applied to the 457 visa scheme, with employers obtaining the agreement of the relevant union in the industry that a bona fide skills shortage exists.

Ferguson also argued that the visa should only be available to bosses who have a history of training skilled workers in Australia. .”/QUOTE]

[desmotronic]

Frozo,
I am concerned about the troops. What is your agenda?

[Torres]

Yes desmotronic, the facts are the Federal Labour Government are expanding the 457 Visa system and expediting the issue process, in direct contradiction to their endless and generally uninformed pre election rhetoric.

Perhaps they discovered the largest user of 457 Visas is the State Labour Governments and in particular the NSW, Western Australian and Queensland Health Departments?

And the reference to the $41,850 MSL is very missleading and mischievous by the journalist. There are certain mandatory costs to be added (including in most cases, Private medical insurance), such that at the lower levels, a 457 Visa holder will earn almost 150% of the applicable Award rate of pay.

However, a 457 Visa holder may not earn less than the applicable Award, EBA or AWA which exists in a work place, therefore if overseas pilots are employed on 457 Visa, they must not be paid less than their Australian counterparts.

And on the subject of endless political pre-election rhetoric we all know the Australian Worker Agreement (AWA) legislation, Work Choices, was immediately abolished by the incoming Labour Government!

Or was it? I now have an Individual Transitional Employment Agreement (ITEA) which is compliant with the new legislation - and is simply my old AWA with a new cover sheet!! :}

What politicians say in Opposition is not necessarily what they will do in Government! :E

[parabellum]

What the unions don't seem to be taking on board is that skilled labour coming to Australia from South Africa is coming for the long haul and not just four years. I know and have worked with dozens of them, they want to come to Australia to start again, SA has gone down the tubes, especially for young families.

[Torres]

The fact is most 457 Visa workers are economic and/or political immigrants with a long term objective of starting a new life in Australia.

And if they embrace our Australian life style and values, obey our laws and ultimately seek and are granted Australian Citizenship, welcome to Australia and good luck in your future life in my country! :ok:

[The Wawa Zone]

So, Marxist theory aside, and after much peripheral discussion about everything else, can we take it as accepted that the average 737 Capt in Australia will continue to earn as much as a bloke who runs a painting business and employs a couple of painters ?

[The Wawa Zone]

Yeah well that killed the conversation stone dead, didn't it !

[amos2]

Not really!

I know a painter who employs a couple of blokes.

He earns nothing like a Virgin or Qantas 737 driver or a Jetstar 320 driver!!

You need to do some more homework! :ok:

[Hoofharted]

Afternoon PAF. How goes It? Was just wandering if you have any kids?

[Hoofharted]

And taken as such.

Nothing "sinister" in the question, just that I used to be a hard-line economic rationalist and hater of unions who from the age of 18 voted for every conservative government that I had the opportunity to vote for. However my views have "softened" substantially since becoming a father. I would hate to see my children growing into a workforce that exploits them as I believe employers have been able to do since the introduction of "work-choices".

So the question is one borne of curiosity rather than malice. :rolleyes:

[Hoofharted]

I agree with your argument to a point, infact I have chosen to take my skills "offshore" and am enjoying economic rewards that my fellow "drivers" back home can dream of but will never experience, thats my choice. However at what point do we draw the line on this issue? How far do we take this, do we become a copy of Dubia where labour is imported to work at "third world" rates and cut the grass from under hard working Australians feet. Dunno, the question is one of philosophy. Personally I believe that most things undertaken in balance have the best result.

[Capt Wally]

Not too sure about painters wages (plumbers tho aren't cheap!) But a few years ago now when I was in the oil industry refueling planes I was at the time earning roughly double what the Regional pilots where getting. I believe pilots in general are one of the lowest paid professions considering what we do risk wise although in some ways it's like being a motor mechanic, it's not really a profession you don't need a license to fix yr own car (unlike electricians & plumbers for Eg) much the same as a pilot. Sure you need a license as such but not a formal education other than basic maths & english, say form 4 or yr 10 (accept for maybe the 'rat', they want rocket scientists!).Flying I believe is only respected ( & that's fast disappearing) by the travelling public who know zip about the industry, they believe we are all RICH!:bored:
How many times have you heard, the statement after you tell someone that you fly small planes for a living.........Oh do you want to be a commercial pilot too some day!:bored:

Slight thread drift, plz don't beat me:E

CW

[ACMS]

interesting viewing...................

[desmotronic]

Must be a pretty crap painter if he owns the business with a couple of employee's and still earns less than 'em


So true.:D

[Muff Hunter]

I have it on good authority that Jetstar are about to take a whole bunch of South Africans on 457 visas...

They are slowing down recruiting (787 delay) and have all but stopped taking AUSSIES, but are going to give OUR JOBS to non-residents...

There is, apparently 30+ ready to start who are airbus endorsed..

Let me say this..........This is a farken disgrace....

How can these people do this and how can the Unions (aipa/afap) let this happen...

I urge all pilots in this country, start making some serious noise now, maybe it's not too late....

There are still too many guys wanting a jet job to be taking cue jumpers now...

Also how can the government allow this.....

A dark day in Aus Aviation if this happens..:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[airsupport]

Why do you say OUR JOBS, if you are in Somalia??? :confused:

[chimbu warrior]

When I first looked at the title of this thread, I thought it was incorrectly named; everyone knows that visas are only issued by the Department of Immigration.

On reflection however, the thread title may be uncomfortably close to the truth....

Lots of good points made here, and one of the best related how the mining industry dealt with skills shortages; NOT with 457 visas.

Consider also that as the recipients of these 457 visas will probably be bringing families with them, their kids will be competing with yours and mine for tertiary places and jobs in the future.

On the other hand, our government is reluctant to allow Pacific Islanders to do seasonal work (fruit picking etc), despite the fact that they are intending to return to their home country at season's end.

All seems a bit bass ackwards to me.

[breakfastburrito]

Airlines are seeking to employ "skilled migrants" holders because these people are VULNERABLE and/or DESPERATE.
The "Skilled Migration" programs allows employers to effectively indenture the worker, dangling the of an Australian Passport for them and their family.
Once the passport is obtained, these now free agents will be out the door like a shot pursing contracts, safe in the knowledge they have an Australian bolt hole.
I find it most interesting that with a industry (in pilot terms) roughly 1/3 the size of Australia's, South Africa can provide the solution to the "shortage" claimed by the airlines.
South African Aviation Statistics 2005 (http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/civil%20stats/Stats%20end%20March%202005.pdf)
Australian Aviation Statistics (includes 2005) (http://casa.gov.au/corporat/annualreport/appendix/appendix3.htm)

Welcome to Australia Inc, where citizenship is sold for corporate profit.

[ACMS]

Seems I WAS RIGHT.

Funny old thing...........

Good luck fellow Aussies, we'll need it.

Can't wait to listen to Mel centre in the future. Once it was Yanks now it'll be Yarpies.

GOD HELP US ALL, because if Pass a Frozzo has any say in it we're all doomed.