National Jet T&C

[aerocom]

Can some one give me some info on the current Pay and monthly hours crew are doing on the 717 at the moment. Also is it a good place to work and what is the time frame for a command. Thanks in advance.

[Green gorilla]

The 146 is 62 I would think the 717 would be more ,people who can leave have left they say in the latest drive lifestyle but on that money you could not buy a house in Perth. I think at least a few years to command.

[XRlent100]

And with Qantas starting up a 737 base in Perth and reportedly taking over alot of 717 flying there may not be much progression at all soon.

[AerocatS2A]

couldn't help but laugh when I saw this thread was moved to GA
GA & Questions old chap, I suspect this'd be a question.

[7chooks]

Tis funny you know, cos when I worked with them many moons ago before the advent of Mr Boeing, a 146 FO earnt around 65k base from memory. Could it have gone down?:ooh:

[Gear in transit]

^^^^^^^

Well it IS National Joke after all.....
Just when you think you've hit rock bottom, out comes the offer of a 'b scale' := Hmmmm hang on it'd have to be an f scale by now wouldn't it?

[RU/16]

The quoted $ are Bscale.
Things are getting desperate, still think they will get pilots unless you say you want A scale or no start!
I think you will still end up with the job but on proper conditions (77k FO). Not a bad gig on that money. 50 hrs a month weekends off on the 146.

[tio540]

RU/16, check your F/O B scale figures.

It's about 20k less than you claim, on the 717, following pay cut last year.

[KRUSTY 34]

tio540,

HOLY SH!T!!!

Goodbye National Jet.

[cunninglinguist]

Yep Cat, a question about a GA company ;)

And with Qantas starting up a 737 base in Perth and reportedly taking over alot of 717 flying there may not be much progression at all soon.
Yesterday 07:57
I believe they are not overly happy with the bent 717 either :{

[Capt Claret]

Bunch of farkin' pessimists some of you lot.

So the 737 is going to provide extra capacity on some routes and you lot think that QF will just park the bloody 717 by the fence???? Maybe, just maybe, it'll increase capacity or frequency on other routes.

Now wouldn't that be a novel idea! :D

tio540, perhaps you should check your facts. Last year an improvement in conditions was won for B Scalers, not great but an improvement. The biggest improvement will happen when wannabes stop accepting the offer so that demand forces the price up. Oh, but then wannabe might miss out on the jet-jobbie! :ugh:

Aerocom as much as my hair's gone white, and I get frustrated beyond belief at times, the next paddock has the same ****, just a different shade. $62ishK to start, 4 years to Level 5 pay, if you come over, you perpetuate the belief that the pay is acceptable.

[DirtySanchezcousin]

Claret, just for the record it wasn't the wannabes who started the rot at NJS by driving the price down. It was people like yourself who initiated the original 5 year deal to protect your own little worlds. The reason you stay at NJS is because no one else wants you and as always you look to blame others for your own doing!!!

[F111]

Back to aerocom questions.

Are the T & C's that bad at NJS that no one will post the figures here?

[RU/16]

62582-78228 after 5 years F/O
104304-130380 after 5 years Capt
For new entrants. No pay for endorsement but bonded.
Bout to be increased for CPI
Stand your ground and the top rate will prevail they need crews bad!
Not a bad GA job:ok:

[Green gorilla]

Go to Virgin:ok:

[Capt Claret]

Aw gee Sanchez, I'm so hurt by your mean nasty parstie words.

Come on back when you know what you're talking about. :rolleyes:

[BPA]

RU/16,

Are those figures A or B scale?

How many O/N's per month and what allowances are paid?

How long to command on the B717 and if you have FO time on jets above 40t would you be fast tracked to command?

[tio540]

Dear Capt Claret.

Your pay improvement definition must be different to mine.

B717 F/O was $75K two years ago. Dropped to under $58K, for new recruits.

Now $62K after 5 years, see above post.

How do you see this as an improvement?

I have nothing against N.J. personally, but applicants need to know.

[BPA]

If it's 58K for new FO's that would the pay lower then what Alliance are paying for the F100 and would make NJS the lowest paid jet pilots in Australia.

I believe Skytrans are paying 50-60k for a Dash 8 FO.

[BAE146]

Hey Sanchez you can always tell when you get old Claret on the back foot - he gets personal. I reckon you know very well what you're talking about and the Captain don't like it ! That's the CIA culture at NJS.

tio 540 very observant and a totally correct assessment.

I left this mob some time back and have watched it slowly implode. Pity really, because it had incredible potential had they been managed properly.

[aerocom]

RU/16 thanks for the figures.

[Mr. Hat]

Wow

B717 F/O was $75K two years ago. Dropped to under $58K, for new recruits.

I don't even have words for this one. Hang on yes i do.

It sounds like a John W Howard wet dream.

What you need in these situations are balaclavas and baseball bats....

[AerocatS2A]

I think the $58K is after salary sacrificing the endorsement.

[tio540]

I think the $58K is after salary sacrificing the endorsement.

It wasn't at the time of introduction, things may have changed.

[AerocatS2A]

So they were paying $58K less the endorsement and people were still applying? Crazy.

[RU/16]

Figures quoted are 2008 ECA.
Start at the lower rate increase to higher after 5 years!
QF interline for 717 pilots.
Time to command......how longs a piece of string?
717 contract only until 2012!

[DirtySanchezcousin]

BAE146, Your right. I do know a bit about what happens at NJS. To listen to guys like claret is sickening. I recall on several occasions sitting down to dinner with the man and hearing his philosophy on how accepting the initial deal was the only option for him at his stage of life. Which happens to be so inconsistent of what he says on PPRUNE.

Beware anyone who wishes to join NJS there are a number of people who will throw you to the lions as soon as the going gets tough!!!!

[Capt Claret]

Poor old Sanchez and his sidekick 146, knickers all in a twist and blood pressure going through the roof.

If you want to sling some ****, at least include a modicum of truth. The last job I recall applying for and not getting was the Kuwaiti national airline in the aftermath of Gulf War I, and haven't applied anywhere for 13 years or so.

As for crediting me with the introduction of all things bad, even I have to be a little humble and say that you credit me with far too much omnipotence.

I'd be quite interested to see evidence of a personal attack, credited to me, on these fora; that's what you're talking about Mr Black, sorry, 146, isn't it?

Did we really dine together on several occasions? I don't recall dining with such vitriol, ever. :D

[BAE146]

Come on back when you know what you're talking about.

Definitely personal and not nice Capt.
If you want to sling some ****..............

Definitely not nice !


Poor old Sanchez and his sidekick 146, knickers all in a twist and blood pressure going through the roof.

Argumentative and presumptuous.

I don't have my knickers in a knot, nor do I suffer from high blood pressure and I am not Sanchez's side kick. With your impeccable command of the English language you must concede that statement was personal.

I consider most of your posts to be reasonable and well balanced Claret but on this occasion you have got it wrong. The NJS culture, as I recall, was kiss as many CIA bottoms as you can to get up the ladder and f%#k anything and anybody else!

From reading the posts (re: NJS) on other threads, I can safely assume - NOTHING HAS CHANGED!:=

My apologies for the thread drift. I believe it was about NJS's T & C's.

[cunninglinguist]

717/146 F/O starts on $62.6k increasing every year to $78.2k after 5 years.

Capt start on $104.3k increasing yearly to $130.4k after 5 years.

Gee, so in 5 years time, a Nat Joke FO will only be 20% below what a VB Effo gets currently, ( 25% in a capt. case ).
That must have taken some damn hard negotiation, I mean Gee whiz, where talking painters and dockers stuff here :yuk:

QF interline for 717 pilots. This would be news to the NJS drivers, unless it happened recently. If it did, great !! Only taken 15 years to get what Air North have had from ( I think ) day 1 of their association with QF :mad:

[RU/16]

Cunning, dont want the facts to get in the way of a good whinge!
20% less than Virgin and 50% less work particulary on the 146. Also no overnights, park at the door, no security, weekends off, most days single return etc etc.
If you are not climbing the ladder to suck cess its a good casual job in Perth that leaves you time to have a life, somthing most aviation jobs dont allow!

[kavakid]

I have worked at number of airlines in my time. I am presently working for NJS for those who want to bag NJS and Capt Clarrie please take a look in your own backyard, I don’t believe you will find roses. Virgin way too many overnights I understand to have a home life, that’s great if single but not if family man/women. Jetstar I hear similar no over nights but plenty of long day’s minimum time off. NJS has my roster for may showing 15 days work 6 res 10 RDO's. Add to that in my many years here the number off days ive been called in on res has been very minimal. B scale I don’t think you would see any Captain or FO agreeing to it but for those of us who where here when it was introduced we had no option but to sit back and watch as per the previous work place laws. I do agree that the management has let the vast majority of us down but again im sure it’s no different to your back yard. Live life, enjoy the sunrise and sunset and just remember why YOU choose to fly if it was for the money then you are a full. I do it for the enjoyment. Well theirs my 2 cents.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

Jetstar I hear similar no over nights but plenty of long day’s minimum time off. NJS has my roster for may showing 15 days work 6 res 10 RDO's.

Minimum time off at Jetstar you say ?

I have been working average 13 days/month for the last 3 months at Jetstar.

My May (28 day block only) roster shows 12 days work (includes 2 26 hours stopovers in Singapore), 3 days res, 11 RDO's and 2 DFD's (duty free days).

This will end up being 12 days work (including 2 days off in Singapore) and 16 days off.

Longs day (@6 hrs/day) with min time off (working 20 days/month) would be impossible as that would work out to be 120 hours/month which we simply can't do.

So what were you saying about Jetstar min time off again and no home life ?

[notop]

Hey bagot sounds like your ready for a command, but i thought there where 31 days in May 16 Rdo + 12 days work + 2 overnights - ummmmm 30. That maybe why they arnt working you to hard:D

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

I am aware that 28 days does not equal a month but a 28 day roster is close enough to get a general idea of current rostering, which is what I was trying to do.

Even if I did work an extra 3 days (worse case scenario which won't happen anyway) to make it a 31 day month, it still would mean :
15 days work
16 days off

Yes NOTOP, even with working an 3 days to make a 31 day month, I don't think I would be working too hard (not as hard as some think we are).

Even this would still make me question about our min time off as some people say (which was the main purpose of my reply and not the exact number of days in a month) :confused:

[BAE146]

Hey Riddler, just keep going to the Crow's matches every second week end and telling the CEO what he wants to hear rather than what he should hear.:{

[kavakid]

Jetstar I hear similar no over nights but plenty of long day’s minimum time off
Bagot I don’t work there I herd from my friends who are there read the words that are written

You guys are clearly happy and proud to be the lowest paid jet jockeys in Oz, so be it.
Cunny you are an idiot. If it was all about the money then none of us would be flying. It must be hard being so uptight that you can’t enjoy your job. I believe the average wage for real people is about 50 to 60 k an F/O is on or above the average wage and as Captain It’s over double. There is a real world out and don’t think that you are so high and mighty that you can’t fall. Most NJS guys are happy the ones who arnt can leave Myself and most of my work mates enjoy our job and life style, Ok point taken we are not the best paid, but i dont need a 6 bedroom house on the beach with 4 cars or what ever you feel you need. I need time with my family and money to enjoy it. You are not a brain surgeon nor am I. I fly aeroplanes for love and get paid. Life is good.

[betaman]

cunninglinguist said

Gee, so in 5 years time, a Nat Joke FO will only be 20% below what a VB Effo gets currently, ( 25% in a capt. case ).
That must have taken some damn hard negotiation, I mean Gee whiz, where talking painters and dockers stuff here :yuk:

That would probably be true if you were comparing VB B737 FO to NJS B717 FO however I think the B717 (115 seats 49895/54885kg MTOW) is closer to the EMB 190 (104 seats 51800kg MTOW). Unless VB have upped the EMB190 pay recently I think NJS might just be the better deal. Particuarly in light of the fact NJS are not charging for the endorsement.;)

Same can be said for trying to compare A320 (177 seats & 73500kg) to a B717. Bit of an unfair comparison don't you think?

Cheers Beta:ok:

[RENURPP]

A Pilot who starts with NJS on the 1st July 2008 will be on $91,744 on 1st July 2012 if still an F/O and based on a guess of 3% for CPI for the future years.
If he becomes a Captain he will be on $148,453 based on the same assumptions. (ammended from$151,ooo) my mistake.

Thats on both the 146 and 717.

Now based on the Skywest Airlines Pilot Agreement 2005, and that may not be the current document, its the latest I have available at present a F100 F/O starting the same day will be on $79,010 on 1st July 2012 if inb that time he becomes a Captain he will get $121,554

Now all the above is based on BASE WAGE.

SkyWest basic hours are lower, i.e. they get paid for hours in excess of 59. Hopw many hours do the do? Their productivity rate is $108/hr for a Capt NJS is $227/hr after 75 hrs. By my calculations if a Skywest Capt flies 75 hrs per month every month he will be $14,000 behind an NJS Capt. If they both fly in excess of 75 hrs the NJS Captain will be ahead $115 for every extra hr.

An NJS Pilot will have acrued, assuming they use the same amount, an extra 22 sick days.

I don't hear the SkyWest Pilots complaing so they must be happy. The whinges seen to come from other companies. Go figure?? :confused:

I suspect Alliance is behind SkyWest, SkyAirWorld are around the same.
AirNorth are a couple of lengths behind the lot.

QF do better than Virgin who do better than Jetstar.
Thats about Pilot pay in Australia in a nutshell.

[jack red]

RENURPP you gotta be a management stool for NJS. You are quoting figures 4 years ahead my friend. On your formulae a Virgin F/O will be pulling $107500 compared to NJS F/O $91700. Virgin Capt will be on $183000.
Skywest F/Os on the F100 start on $86500. According to your formulae in reverse that means NJS F/Os must start on $81400.If that's the Pilot pay in Australia in a nutshell I think NJS has a lot of catching up to do.

[RENURPP]

Jack ****, you brainless flea,
The posts above mine refer to 5 yrs ahead. Do you have the retention span to read that many posts and recall their content?
I was putting a bit of perspective on it. If my numbers are inaccurate, then lets see the accuarte ones and a reference from where they come from, and not "my mate who knows some one who works" there type rubbish.

The following is copied directly from the SkyWest Airlines Pilot Agreement 2005. 1st year of service
F50 First Officer$52,000 Captain $80,000
F100 First Officer$70,200 Captain $108,000

I think we all expect QF and Virgin pay to be well above SkyWest, NJS etc no supprise there. I thought they may be further ahead.

Its not a formula **** for brains, with the exception that we don't know exactly what CPI will be, I guessed at an average of 3%. You can use whatever you want.
Even if the CPI is 0% or negative for the next 4 yrs an NJS F/O will be on $81,513, and thats a fact.

I can not find anywhere in my previous post that I said it was a good outcome, I simply posted what an NJS F/O will be on.

[Spotlight]

And then, Transport Weighted Index is tossed into the argument.

Stick to what you do best. And I agree, the pay at National Jet is a joke.

[MinimaNoContact]

Jack ****, you brainless flea,
Its not a formula **** for brains
Wow... little defensive... why so worked up...?

[BAE146]

Wow... little defensive... why so worked up...?

Jacky boy hit a nerve. NJS management have never been any different, say anything negative about the Company and you are in deep kim **** buddy!

I would like Capt Claret or Renurpp to answer tio540's question in post #19.

[Capt Claret]

Well, firstly tio, in post 19 should get his/her facts correct.

Dear Capt Claret.

Your pay improvement definition must be different to mine.

B717 F/O was $75K two years ago. Dropped to under $58K, for new recruits.

No it didn't. Try $61821.



Now $62K after 5 years, see above post.

No it isn't. After 5 years it will be $78228 plus CPI increments from Jul 08 onwards.

How do you see this as an improvement?

Well despite your facts being demonstrably wrong, the improvements came about by the pilot body showing unity, and working together, instead of slagging one another off, as happens here anonymously.

The B Scale was NEVER voted in, it was imposed because the IR legislation of the day allowed it to be. The same IR legislation made it illegal for anyone other than those on the agreement to take any action against the Ts & Cs while the agreement was valid.

By remaining united 146 & tio, & sanchez, we (the pilot body and Pilot Group Committee) managed to get the incentive hours scheme revoked, slightly better pay, refund of payment training contributions, a flat 2% per annum pay increase changed to CPI. These are all improvements won in 2007, last year.

Now what did you guys do to help?


ps, 146, your post (#21), you must have a very thin skin if you think what I've written is personal. :D

[RENURPP]

146, I am not supporting the company. I simply advised what the guys are really on, and then some dip**** reckons by telling the truth you are management stool. Surely you would rather have the facts then some crap that is way off the mark.
By the way i am not worked up, thats just how I see it. :)

[RENURPP]

For 146's benifit. The B Scale conditions that were bought in are definitley not an increase. I doubt you will find a post where I have suggested that B scale is a good thing.
They were introduced against the wishes of pretty much every Pilot.
The IR legislation at the time allowed the company to introduce AWA's on th terms on offer and if accepted there was bugger all any one accept the Pilot who was being offered the conditions could do about it.
The problem being, Pilots conitued to que up and accept the crap conditions. Whilst they are on offer and not many people leave the company will keep offering them.
Contrary to idiots like Minima No Contact stating that masses of Pilots were about to leave months ago, it hasn't happened. Again if they did the pay issue would be addressed. NJS has a lower Pilot turn over than QF/Virgin and JetStar, (at the moment) go figure.:confused:
His and some of his ilks, total input was to Log on to PPRUNE and throw stones at the people trying to change things. He doesn't have the brain power to come up with a single idea, yet he will get on here and slag the people that are trying, thats his mentality.
I can tell you for a fact that most of the know it alls on here have absolutely no input to improving current T and C's. If they did they should have put their hands up and assisted. They were all toooooo busy. :yuk: tooo busy talking **** on PPRUNE, or thumping their hairless chests in the crew room. CC stated there have been improvements on the initial B Scale, to the point where it is similar to SkyWest, Alliance, Air North and Australian Express Frieghters, but I agree with you it is still hopeless. After 4 yrs it is better as I indicated above.
The A scale, (lack of a better term) is not too bad and is much better than the above.

[XRlent100]

RENURPP,

Your facts are indeed wrong. From the Skywest Pilot's Agreement 2005.

1st Year F100 F/O $70,200 plus 3% per annum which means;
1st July 2006 $72,306
1st July 2007 $74,475
1st July 2008 $76,709
1st July 2009 $79,010
1st July 2010 $81,381
1st July 2011 $83,822
1st July 2012 $86,337

Also, if your F/O becomes a Captain after 5 years He/She will be on a 5th year scale which in 2012 will be $140,205

so for someone who is so keen on accurate figures I think you need to hit the calculator again......

[RENURPP]

XRlent,
Yes you are correct. i didn't add the 3% for this year or looking back to 2005, it wasn't intended to make the numbers look good or bad for either side.
I was only working on 4 years.

So thanks and the accurate comparison after lets make it to 1st July 2012, i.e. 4 yrs -
SkyWest F/O 1st July 2012 $86,337
NJS F/O 1st July 2012 $91,744
SkyWest Capt 1 st July 2012 $140,205
NJS Capt 1st July 2012 $148,453.

Now the intention isn't to make one sound better than the other as you need to consider ALL the T&C's not simply a base wage. If we did the calculation starting on the 1st July 2008, and made them cumulative for 5 yrs I come up with the following.SkyWest F/O $407,259 and NJS 381,977.
Both companies have there good and bad points. Some of the above were advertising it as the worst paid jet job in Aus, well thats simply not true. The first few years it may be but if you intend staying it changes.
As some one said earlier on, prospective employees have every right to know what they will get.
I want to dispell the crap that wasn't being written as fact. We all make mistakes. Some do it intentionally.

[tio540]

Capt Claret, you are quite correct. $62K is better than the $75K a few years ago. What was I thinking?

[Moniker]

and that's the point 55 - the AWA apparently capable of being a individually negotiated instrument, had in fact been 'collectively negotiated' for the individual - leaving no room for an individual to negotiate.

Hats off to CC and Renurpp and the others who stood united - they did make a difference.

As an aside - how do you think those fantastic figures appeared for the pilots in the other NJS company?

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

You guys are clearly happy and proud to be the lowest paid jet jockeys in Oz, so be it

From the above posts, both NJS and Skywest seem to pay less. :confused:

You are wrong again :ouch:and don't seem to have any idea, so be it. :ugh:

[betaman]

Gee what happened to 55's post?

Was one of the better ones which explained some of the history behind the issue.:confused:

Cheers

[Mr. Hat]

Lets see the rank 1 to 4 of the lowest paid jet job in oz:ugh::}

[aussie027]

Does anyone have a link to the new 2007/08 NJS pilot contract/EBA or a copy(pdf) please????
A net google search found nothing and despite spelling out the companies full name the :mad::mad::mad:search function here keeps telling me "jet " has only 3 :mad::mad::mad: letters and wont show any search results!!!:mad:
This may help clarify some conflicting numbers posted here for a start.
Any info appreciated, thanks.

[KRUSTY 34]

An observation guys.

The stated payrate for a 100 seat Jet F/O at SkyWest in 2012 will be approx what DJ are paying a 70 seat Jet F/O in 2008! And the rate for a DJ E-Jet F/O is nothing to write home about.

If those at SkyWest are happy with that lot, then fine. It appears to me however that we still have a long way to go!

[jarjar]

Remember guys, Skywest's agreement was signed in 2005, back then the rates of pay were considered "adequate" for the time. Since then alot has happened in the industry, and XR's agreement comes to the table again shortly.
JarJar

[Capt Claret]

What was I thinking?

Well buggered if I know. Your first post was factually incorrect.

An improvement was won last year. I repeat, it wasn't great but it was an improvement. People keep accepting it, perhaps you should become the protector and stop them.

As an aside, Virgin and JetStar did/still do require one to pay for an endorsement, or already be endorsed on type. NJS doesn't. The $$ amount the "B Scalers" are behind is close to what an A320 or B737 endorsement costs.

[aussie027]

If what Capt Claret says is true re B scale, and I assume it is then pilots are effectively paying for the endo in which case a 3yr/30K should not apply.:ugh:
If you start on full A scale rate and you dont pay for any of it then fair enough with the bond.

[F111]

Alliance F100 FOs start on $66000 with a 2 year bond. They are paid this from day one, no training wages. Captains are on $106,000.
I've heard Skyairworld are paying $135,000 for Captains and $80,000 for FOs

Most new pilots joining Virgin on the E-jet will start on level 1 pay which from July 2008 will be $76,640. After gaining 500hrs on type they will move to level 2 pay which is $83,608. Based on flying 75 hrs/month they should reach this after 8 months (allowing for ground schools etc in the first month). So their base first year pay would be $78962.66. Less the $30000 for the endorsement makes a base of $48962.66. Using the same 75 hrs/month would also give them 4 hours of overtime per month and based on 10 months of flying would be an extra $3616 for the first year, throw in 10 o/n per month once again based on 10 months of flying gives an extra $11505 per year. So an E-jet FO at Virgin could earn approx. $64083.66 for the first year. In their second year they would be on a min of $83608 and throw in overtime and o/n allowances and they could earn just under $100,000.
Now if the FO is still an FO in 2011 (when the current EBA expires) they would be on a min. base of $98,974. If the FO gets a command slot in 2011 they would be on a min. base of $152,267.

So for the first year there may not be much difference between the two companies, however once entering your second year at Virgin you start to pull ahead of the NJS FO. Having said that, the B717 sounds like a nice aircraft to fly (much like the F100), it’s a shame the pay is not higher.

[Capn Bloggs]

10 o/n per month once again based on 10 months of flying gives an extra $11505 per year

Thanks but no thanks. Oh and minus half of that $11505 in drinking and eating costs.:)

the B717 sounds like a nice aircraft to fly (much like the F100)

There is one essential difference - the 717 is a jet, whereas the F100 is a F@kker. :E

[Icarus2001]

$62K for a jet FO position. Most turboprop Captains would be taking a pay cut to take up this position wouldn't they?

[AerocatS2A]

Some turboprop F/Os would be taking a paycut.

[Green gorilla]

I cant see the reason why FOs are paid so little I think 15 years ago they would be on around 100 thousand more think things are going down hill fast.