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Skydrol Leak
18th Apr 2008, 19:57
Hi guys,

I am going for an assesment on a B727 sim and I have gathered some manuals and some pretty dull info, but I would like to ask any 727 driver out there for the "heads up" kinnda info they might have for a first time flyer in 727-200.
I am wondering about EPR settings and N1 for approaches ,the hidden facts about this plane and in general handling tips would be of a great help.

Thanks

hetfield
18th Apr 2008, 20:21
Oh my GOD, it's soooo long ago (20 years).

I'll give it a try.

As on most aircraft, pitch and power is the key for basic flying.

- T/O (full rated), the EPRs are about 2.10/2.12/2.10 for 15rated engines, pitch almost 20 deg for medium weight, at max about 15 deg
- CLB, EPR about 2.00/2.02/2.00 ~ 90% N1, pitch 10 deg for flap retraction,
- obtain flap speed schedule!!! From F15 to 5 look for 160kt, flaps 2 190kt, fl up 210kt (if above 70t add 10kt). If F5 T/O you should start with flap retr at V2 +20.
- Approach, 727 has very efficient speed brakes. Plan for a normal descent (height * 3) ROD about 5 * GS, if req it will go much steeper;) highest pitch will be with F5 and level, about 8-9 deg!!
- during approach with 170kt or so (F5) it may be necessary to reduce thrust below surge bleed valve rpm (~55%) a little help is to keep 1 and 3 above that value and #2 at idle
- final apprch, if I remember correct FF with F30 and undercarriage down was about 1.500 kg/h, pitch about 2.5 deg (medium weight)
- landing is a little tricky;). Get it down to below 20 feet, retard power about half, pull a little and release or even push! But that's a different story.:D Don't forget reverse, but before pull groundspoilers if no auto-sys installed.

Wish you all the best.:)

Kind regards
hetfield

fantom
18th Apr 2008, 20:32
The pitch trim switch on the control column is lethal; it's far too quick. Use the switch on the centre pedestal.

Recite the order of doing things (thrust reduction/ flap retraction speeds) in your head before getting in.

Enjoy; it's a great machine.

f

Happydays
18th Apr 2008, 20:52
When you within 20 nm from the Airport make sure you 210 knots. From 210knots its easy. Close the thrust levers.

Ask for Flaps 2. Speed 190 Knots.
Then Flap 5, Speed 160
Flaps 15, Speed 150.

At that stage you will need to apply thrust. Theres a VERY big changes in attitude from 210 Knots to Vref30+10Knots.

Use your Fuel flow. Bottom gauges as a ref. Its easier to look at. You will need 3000-4000kg if I remember correctly. if your speed it getting to low to maintain 250.

Then call for Flaps 25, Speed Vref30+10.
Flaps 30, Landing checklist.
On a 3degree glide you will have around 1500kg - 2000kg on the Fuel Flow.

Good Luck ! :)

Attitude indicator and thrust is all you need.

remember what they looking for is to see you making progress in "learning on mistakes" during the session.

Skydrol Leak
20th Apr 2008, 18:32
Thanks fellas,a good source of info. I'll let you know in couple of weeks how it went!

Cheers, SL

Happydays
20th Apr 2008, 18:35
Are you doing the simcheck on the 727 sim in Bournmouth ?

john_tullamarine
21st Apr 2008, 02:00
Sim -

Make sure that you get a good brief pre-sim and quiz the instructor on thrust/attitudes he is looking for. If the exercise is an assessment, I wouldn't expect them to be looking for too much in the way of finesse but certainly some improvement during the session.

I won't hazard any numbers as it is too long ago .. but body angles are critical and N1 is your friend. If your background is prop, be prepared for greater required throttle (power levers .. whichever you prefer) movements than you have been used to previously. If the background is jet .. it's just another early FAR25 toy to enjoy.

Most sims are old and the ancient computing power will lead to fidelity problems here and there. Those I have flown all had visual/control mismatch problems on visual final approaches, in particular .. suggest you emphasise (heavily) the I/F until you get the hang of an individual box. The typical problem is that the tendency is to overcontrol like you wouldn't believe and you end up going down the approach like you are on a luge.

Fly it on the clocks (think control pressure .. try thumb and finger on the controls rather than a fistful of brawny hand) ... set target attitude/N1 (or EPR) ... check response .... set small attitude change .. check response ... set small etc... and it will behave reasonably well for you ... try to wing it and you will be in for some fun you don't really want.

So long as you have a good I/F scan rate, just fly it like any aeroplane with the emphasis on thinking control pressures rather than pushing and pulling .. the latter will get you into strife quicker than you can blink twice ...

From my own experience, I went back onto the 722 after a break from the 727 of about 15 years and no flying for several years ... the first session was sweaty then it was reasonably straightforward.

Aircraft -

Be conscious of the two stage takeoff pitch sequence to minimise tail clearance problems ..

The only problem of note is landing. There are near as many techniques as pilots ... after battling with my operator's conventional wisdom and achieving nothing but disaster (the 722 was my first jet) .. I went back to a basic 172 technique .. fly it to the aiming point .. coming over the fence look long ... close the throttles as you settle. One caveat .. until you have a comfortable ability to estimate where the mains are (and they are a long way back there ..) ... close the throttles steadily rather than rapidly and then, don't flare any further as you will drive the mains into the ground .. if you get caught, pressure the pole forward .. probably get a firm touchdown but nothing to write home about. You can get some superb touchdowns when it all comes together .. it is an eerie sensation when the touchdown is an absolute greaser .. no sound, no shudder .. and the foreboding that, if it is NOT on the ground, then you are in for BIG trouble. I didn't score many of those but the few I did were great fun ... some of the other sort don't warrant much comment at all ...

Certification from memory followed min speed rather than a stall per se .. so be wary of letting the speed get below bug plus a bit ...

JammedStab
21st Apr 2008, 04:29
I went on the 727 about a year and a half ago. My first jet. I had prevoiusly done 1 sim evaluation in a 737 many years previous that was not a fun experience due to overcontrol. If your background is similar, you may experience the same. By the time I got onto the 727, I had spent several years flying a very touchy sim on the plane I was transitioning from. This made the 727 sim training much, much easier as it was a definite improvement.
If you are coming from a turboprop background with no sim, it will be a handfull. On takeoff it is easy to overcontrol on the rudders as it seems like you are on ice. Try to anticipate and not overcontrol. If you are used to a quick V1-rotate, remember that there will likely be a certain period of time betwwen these calls. Do a slow steady rotation to 15° noseup instead of the sometimes abrupt rotation of a prop. Remember to keep the rotation continuing to 15° noseup unless airspeed dictates otherwise.
The 727 has very large trim changes as the flaps are retracted. Someone earlier said not to use the thumb operated high speed trim on on the control wheel but the slow speed trim on the center pedestel. I was given this advice as well but there is a reason why each has it's name. I found the high speed to be better. But use it cautiously. Relatively short bursts or else you will overtrim. If you use the low speed trim, it will work but you will be behind the trim. Personal preference, I think.
You now have to get used to nose-up attitudes in level flight. If the nose goes on the horizon, the plane will go down. Amount of nose up depends on the configuration and speed. Scan, Scan, Scan. Get your PNF to do as much for you as possible so you can Scan, Scan , Scan.
If they are the types that give you an engine failure at V1, you do need rudder(for a pod engine failure) even though the engines are not on the wings. When airborne trim out the rudder. 4 quick turns of rudder trim work well for me. When levelling off to clean up, you really notice the nose up attitude to maintain level flight.
If you get a level off with all engines operating, speed picks up very quickly so be ready to bring the thrust levers back significantly if 250 knots is your target.
Someone earlier talked about the big attitude changes when slowing down and configuring. This is correct if you fly at the speeds posted. It does feel odd being in level flight at high nose-up attitudes at flap 15 and 150 knots. But these slower speeds and attitudes are not always flown on the line so on a typical approach you may not see this.
Getting slowed to 210 knots within 20 miles will work well for the sim eval. Then on the line you will keep it in tighter. Remember the trim changes are significant here as well. Only short burst if you use high speed trim. Slow speed trim works well here if you choose. The plane is a different animal at max landing weights compared to empty landing weights. Takeoff on a cold winter day winter when empty it seems like a rocket at 300 knots and near 6000 feet per minute climb. The a hot summer day at near max weight as it seems to just hang there and you wonder how high you would really have been over the end of that long runway if you had lost an engine at V1. Much smaller thrust lever movement required for speed corections on approach when empty it seems to me.
I found the sim quite stable on an ILS. Hopefully yours is as well. Power on approaches are mandatory with a minimum of 1.2 EPR. If you are heavy you will be well above that. When you are empty, it seems to be almost too much at times.
For the flare, remember, you are approaching at a level or even nose up attitude even though it may not appear that way out the window. Don't do the big flare like on some props. And don't chop the power at 50 feet. Power to the flare and a small flare and simultaneous closing of the thrust levers. Just hold the attitude and land. If you bounce, don't pull or push. I just hold the attitude. It is a tough gear. On the line you may do some relaxing of back pressure after the flare or even pushing. It can smooth out landings and reduce floating.

luddite
24th Apr 2008, 14:14
God's own aeroplane! You'll love her! :ok:
Bit of talk about the trim - perceived wisdom from those happy days was to use the thumbwheel during flap retraction/extension (lots of trim very quickly) and the centre pedestal trim wheel when clean (not so quick).
All powered controls so just think pressure rather than heaving and pulling.
And the greatest thing ever, voice activated throttles! From the point of calling 'set takeoff thrust' to top of descent the wonderful flight engineer will do all the work. Established on final just give yourself a total fuel flow of 10000lbs, 3300 per engine if all three are running, 5000 each if only two. No-one would be so unkind as to give you a single engine approach on an asessment! Although it wasn't as fraught as it sounds.
And - most of all - enjoy!

beachbumflyer
25th Apr 2008, 22:52
That´s a real airplane. :ok:

JammedStab
26th Apr 2008, 01:29
Somebody mentioned earlier about a 3 to 1 descent. For a straight in landing at max landing weight and little wind I have been doing close to that but if we are empty I take off 10 miles and then another 10 miles for each 50 knots of headwind at altitude with consideration for what kind of wind to expect below 10,000 feet.

I don't have a huge amount of crosswind experience but it seems to be a bit of a handful when empty. Very responsive in roll at this point as you have all four ailerons operating and spoilers as well. I was told to use the wing down method because if I misjudged the crab method it could put the aircraft in a situation wher the captain could not recover for landing. Remember to add some power when transitioning to a wing down-opposite rudder attitude. At higher x-winds, I think a combination may be necessary. I am sure others have different opinions. 100 apparently can handle more crosswind.

Try not to have too much wing down at touchdown as you can get a wingscrape, on the flaps I believe. Minimize flare as the greater the flare, the less wing down necessary for a scrape. 7° roll at 7° nose-up with a firm landing will give a wing scrape I am told.

Into wind aileron is used for takeoff and held throughout the rotation. Seems a bit odd as now you have spoilers partially extended during liftoff.

con-pilot
26th Apr 2008, 20:26
Actually you can land the 72 in a crab, I'll try and find the limitation, because to be honest I have forgotten the limit. I have operated the 72 in very strong cross winds with little trouble. On a few occasions full rudder and aileron application on takeoff was insufficient and I had to nudge the nose wheel steering tiller until the airspeed got over a hundred knots to stay on the center line.

The heavier the 72 is the easier to land in cross winds.

For approach fuel flows on final in landing configuration (flaps 30) on the 100 series at normal weight it seemed that around 3,000 PPH was the target setting, on the 200 series around 3500 PPH was needed. Set the power at those settings and then make minor adjustments to remain on the landing profile.

It is actually a very easy aircraft to fly. I enjoyed the 7,000 hours I have in the 727.

(Well, most of them anyway. :p)

Oh, one note of caution. A lightly loaded 727, crew only and less than 10,000 pounds of fuel, will float like a Piper Cub on landing if you let it, so be careful when light.

Mäx Reverse
26th Apr 2008, 20:44
And when ATC asks for your Speed, don't forget to reply:

'We have three-eighty, we can increase' :ok:

Must have been a hell of a plane,

Regards MAX

SOTV
26th Apr 2008, 20:55
Many apologies for the intrusion but I spent a very happy couple of hours some years ago at Almeria airport watching a DHL (I think) 727 doing touch and goes, missed approaches, full stops and other exercises. Even the flight deck crews of stabled aircraft had their cameras out.

Also, I must have been on one of the last Dan Air 727 flights before they were grounded in about May '89. Excellent tool.

:ok:

JammedStab
27th Apr 2008, 04:39
There are 7 panels on each wing to kill lift 5 of which can be used in flight so if you need to get down fast, normally you can. An emergency descent with gear down and speedbrakes extended, you descend like a rock. As someone said....you are never too high. But that may not always be true. In icing conditions you have to keep the thrust up at 55% N1(70% in heavier icing) and at lower altitudes, the rate of descent is quite slow(500-1000 fpm). With an ATC restriction of speed below 200 knots, you can't use speedbrakes, so extending some flaps seems to work. Only two of seven leading edge devices on each wing come out at the first selection of 2° but all slats and Krueger flaps come out with the 5° selection.

Looking at the wing when on the ground an flaps fully extended, it seems like it makes almost a half circle from lowered leading edge to aft trailing edge. All spoilers extended make it look even more impressive.

My manual does talk about not taking crab out for landing in crosswinds on very slippery runways but cautions about reverse thrust drifting the aircraft toward the downwind side of the runway when not aligned with the runway.

con-pilot
27th Apr 2008, 21:26
but cautions about reverse thrust drifting the aircraft toward the downwind side of the runway when not aligned with the runway

Very true, I had to take the controls away from a new pilot in the 727 once because of that very issue. There have been a few accidents because of improper use of thrust reverse on contaminated runways.

One other thing, pay very close attention to the 'Brake cooling charts' on this aircraft. There has been at least one 727 literately blown out of the sky due to hot brakes and a few more severely damaged in flight.

JammedStab
28th Apr 2008, 16:08
Keep in mind that the Mexicana plane that crashed due to an exploding tire had been seviced with air instead of nitrogen.

The horizontal tail has three degrees anhedral. It is interesting to note that none the tail has provision for anti-icing at all. The wings do on the entire leading edge except for the one Krueger flap on each side that has the landing light in it. The forward part of the very inboard top of the wing is anti-iced as well, I would assume to provide extra protection for engines 1 and 3. The VHF antenna on the roof also receives bleed air for protection of the #2 engine.

One thing I have found odd as a passenger on the 727 sitting at the far aft of the plane with a window seat where you are right beside the engine inlet, is that when thrust is applied for takeoff, you see a condensation trail that looks like a rope coming from the area between the engine and the fuselage going forward and curving 180° and going into the engine intake. Have seen it a bit on the MD-80 as well.

hetfield
28th Apr 2008, 16:15
A very helpfull site:

http://www.boeing-727.com/

kind regards
hetfield

con-pilot
28th Apr 2008, 19:35
Keep in mind that the Mexicana plane that crashed due to an exploding tire had been seviced with air instead of nitrogen.

Very true, however, the same thing happened to a Braniff 727, fortunately that aircraft survied and the crew made a successful landing. That aircraft had been serviced with nitrogen.

However, after rereading the first post I now realize that Skydrol Leak is just going for an evaluation flight in a 727 simulator, not actually flying one on the line.

Oops, I guess we got carried away. :uhoh:

Sorry about that. Good Luck Skydrol Leak. :ok: