LARS, Farnborough

[Ken Wells]

Just got back from a tour of NATS, LARS operation at Farnborough arranged by Dept CFI at White Waltham.

Fascinating place. New Tower is very impressive and so was the team that explained the increased LARS range , now extending as far north as Cambridge and as Far East as just west of Lydd, soon to be extended all the way to the coast covering Southend and Manston.

Very helpful controllers and a very informative and great tour.

[jollyrog]

If only they answered the radio when you call them.

I tried a couple of weeks ago to use them for the first time. Actually gave it a few more calls than the prescribed three I should have before I gave up (wanted to give them a chance) and even called Headcorn to check that I'd written the frequency down correctly, which I had.

When I landed, an Instructor and another pilot said that they'd both tried to use them earlier in the week with no success.

I tried.

[tmmorris]

I'm afraid I had the same experience as Jollyrog - called them three times, then called the old Farnborough freq. to be told 'try Luton'. Not very helpful. (Luton was helpful, but they shouldn't need to be...)

Tim

[Duchess_Driver]

...whilst the service is good and very welcome, there have been a number of notams about the issue of service outages at short notice due staffing.

I'm sure once it settles down the service will be crackin!

Top effort.

[Three Yellows]

I'm sure once it settles down the service will be crackin!



Only on quiet days..... when the sun is shining and everybody is out then a request for a RIS is often met with FIS due controller workload/radar clutter/poor radar performance or some other random excuse.

Sorry to say that the days you really need it, when the sky is black with PA28s out of EGTB and EGLM, you don't get it.

Sorry to rain on the parade. I'm sure everyone is doing their best, its just it never works out quite how you need it.

[jollyrog]

On the day in question, I had checked my NOTAMs. Nothing mentioned.

If they're going to be unreliable, I'd much rather stick with the reliable FIS we get from Shoreham, Lydd and Manston.

[Duchess_Driver]

Jollyrog....

Never used East, just North and Classic and have to say whenever I've wanted them to provide a RIS always been there, sure there are times when they're busy and Sunday afternoon with all the weekend traffic isn't the time to talk to them.

Would have much preferred the '0013' Luton approach where I know they're watching and they know I'm listening. :D

"Only on quiet days..... when the sun is shining and everybody is out then a request for a RIS is often met with FIS due controller workload/radar clutter/poor radar performance or some other random excuse.

Sorry to say that the days you really need it, when the sky is black with PA28s out of EGTB and EGLM, you don't get it...."

Sounds like Brize, Benson and the reason why Luton stopped LARS service. :(

[TheOddOne]

Excellent service when it works, but so far, really unreliable and not necessarily NOTAM'd in time.

Coming round the zone from Biggin-Denham the other day, called Thames Radar who said 'Negative FIS, contact Farnborough Radar on...no, hang on, I've just been told thy're off the air, you have Flight Information Service'
I said 'Flight info thanks, I can't work out when Farnborough are available'
'You and me. both!' he said.

I've tried using the service when instructing. Great when transiting to and fro the training area, but when you're doing stalling & trying to talk to the student etc it just gets in the way. We do most of our upper air work north of Aylesbury, on the edge of their cover anyway. I usually call Halton there so I can find out what glider traffic might be about, difficult to spot visually and tends not to show up on Radar anyway.

TheOddOne

[SilentHandover]

Glad you enjoyed the tour, :ok: the manning is on unit for the full operation of all the LARS sectors but training needs to be done to get all the extra staff, me included, valid on all the sectors before we can open all the time I'm afraid.
As for the comment about wanting to be left alone whilst doing your stalls etc fair comment, my main instructor is making it very clear to me that when you ask for a FIS that's what you want, hopefully the culture will spread out more across the unit.

[2close]

No complaints here. Had the service each time its been requested and I usually tell them its a training sortie, general handling between Aylesbury and Westcott up to 5,000' so they know I'm going to be going up, down, left, right and inside out and without warning. They've always assigned me a squawk and provided an excellent service so keep up the good work, guys (not heard any gals yet!).

[TheOddOne]

(not heard any gals yet!).

There's at least one I've talked to.

TOO

[AlanM]

SH - when will it be fully manned?

A lot of people rightly commented about the no-notice closures that mean that they don't call anymore, already.

Otherwise, keep up the good work. When it is open the resulats speak for themselves, pilots get a better service, TC Approach frequencies are more manageable and airspace infringements are being prevented which helps everyone.

[SilentHandover]

Alan it depends on if the trainees are brilliant or muppets like myself! :E

[Mikehotel152]

I diligently checked my NOTAMs on Monday and no mention of Farnborough East being off the air, but it was when I needed it...:suspect:

[DC10RealMan]

This is another example of NATS triumph of style over substance. The LARS service is announced with great publicity and fanfare implying the possibility of a RAS or RIS around the London TMA which is certainly a very worthwhile idea. The service as it is at the moment is not good enough. It closes at very short notice sometimes without NOTAM action. If it is open it will only provide FIS as its main rationale is to stop infringements of CAS around the London area not to provide a RIS or RAS as advertised. If you ask for any information (Weather, Danger area activity, etc) you are told to contact London Information who have all that information to hand. I have also been given an instruction to turn or to climb or descend by Farnborough when being provided with a FIS in Class G airspace when returning to Goodwood, How does that work?
I know that this is none of the fault of the staff who are working under the control of accountants and all that that implies.
Given the clear inadequacy and erractic opening hours of the Farnborough LARS the obvious conclusion is that pilots will not bother using it even if it is open which makes me think why did they bother?

[Wycombe]

In my experience, Farnborough LARS will sometimes ask in a "can you accept?" type of way if you wouldn't mind a temporary heading/level change, if it will help de-conflict you from their many IFR arrivals and departures (some of whom don't have the best English or understanding of the difference between a RIS and RAS, for example!)

Having also visited them and sat with the controllers on a sunny Saturday afternoon, I can well see the challenge of vectoring jet traffic through very busy class G, lots of it not talking to them, not squawking (or even if they are, not verified etc).

Hope the SSR still doesn't drop out fairly regularly like it kept doing on the day I visited as well (just to make life easier ;))

[Mikehotel152]

"I can well see the challenge of vectoring jet traffic through very busy class G"

Are you serious? You make it sound like we're all playing in the same big sandpit. I'm sure it would be an issue if Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, Stansted and City didn't have CTA/R protection and NATS deemed it essential to ensure separation, but they do have their own airspace to play in!

It's not as though we currently have jet traffic buzzing around below the London TMA at 2000' mixing it with the Cessna and Piper traffic! :confused: The only stuff I sometimes hear/see is going into Southend.

[Ken Wells]

Mike Hotel, you forget we also have an increase Heli traffic in the SE.

LARS now uses primary amd secondary Radar.

Quite frankly they do a great job with a very small team!!!

[Roffa]

MH,

It's not as though we currently have jet traffic buzzing around below the London TMA at 2000' mixing it with the Cessna and Piper traffic! The only stuff I sometimes hear/see is going into Southend.

EGLF has annual movements of around 28,000 per annum at the moment, the bulk of which are jets and which have to get in to and out of the airways system to and from EGLF outside controlled airspace... so, err, there is rather a lot of jet traffic up to 737 size buzzing about below the TMA in that neck of the woods.

Oh, and Lasham has quite a few jet movements as well.

[Three Yellows]

What Roffa says :ok:

But I think that EGLF has just had permission to double its movements... so MikeHotel152, keep your eyes open!

[Mikehotel152]

:confused: I thought this discussion (and hence my earlier comment) was about the intermittent nature of the new Farnborough LARS services North and East of London. In our neck of the woods, we don't have much low-level jet traffic but we do have the occasional helicopter at 800' where Farnborough probably can't see them!

Don't worry chaps, I always keep my eyes wide open, especially around the south-west of London! :sad: I flew Compton Abbas to Fairoaks and Biggin the other day and Farnborough West were very busy due to a heck of lot of light aircraft, gliders and microlights around West and SW London. I can imagine getting a Citation through that lot might have been interesting!

[CaptAirProx]

Silenthandover,

I must admit that as much as Farnborough are generally always helpful and always very busy I do feel that quite often they are TOO helpful.

I spend many a day briefing my students as to the facets of FIS and then when working Farnborough they often use R/t phraseology that sounds very similar to a RIS.

Such as "G####, you are identified, traffic similar level passing down your righthand side altitude un-verified, Flight Information Service......."

Now wea are all human and I would suspect if I was sat at the scope, my natural reaction would be to tell pilots what they may not see themselves. Its all part of duty of care etc. However this does semm to breed a culture amoungst us pilots that a FIS is more than it is.

Maybe if LARS units made an uncomfortable stance by NOT telling pilots of other traffic "on radar" etc then it may free you up to give genuine RIS to people that request it?? At least us pilots would then be getting a FIS "as advertised". Don't get me wrong I love all the info - thankyou very very kindly. However it maybe doing more harm than good.

I have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!

[Talkdownman]

Any information regarding relative bearing obtained using a radar set is Radar Information. If such radar information is provided as a service then that service is a Radar Information Service. The Pilot/Controller agreement is required to reflect that. It is perfectly clear from definition that Flight Information Service is a non-radar service. Why, then, are the two services confused so often by air traffic service providers? Do some not understand the difference? If they do and elect to upgrade the service at their own instigatation then the service should be upgraded accordingly for the duration of the upgrade no matter how long or short. Either it is a radar service or it is not. There should be no doubt as to which service is being provided either in the mind of the service recipient or the service provider.

[chevvron]

Flight Information Service IN THE UK is supposedly non - radar, but according to ICAO and some European countries, radar can be used.

[Bath]

have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!


Fact to many pilots head down GPS tracking, the Cirrus effect, lovely glass screen but for God's sake LOOK OUT THE GOD DAMN WINDOW

[SwanFIS]

"Flight Information Service IN THE UK is supposedly non - radar, but according to ICAO and some European countries, radar can be used."

This is still a grey area even in the proposed new ATSOCA names and procedures coming soon.
:confused:

Basic Service - Controllers and FISOs may provide a Basic Service. Controllers may utilise ATS surveillance system derived information in the provision of a Basic Service.

[chevvron]

Still a grey area IN THE UK because the powers that be choose to ignore the guidance in ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11, which descibes the use of radar in the provision of both Flight Information Service and Air Traffic Advisory Service.

[Lurking123]

In the traditional British way, the CAA consulted to death rather than just implement the international standard/recommended practice. Go to various places in Europe and get a FIS which, remarkably, resembles our RIS. :\

[jollyrog]

Tried them again yesterday. Nowt.

One day, one day...

[TheOddOne]

They were working well today, though they couldn't upgrade me from FIS to RIS due to the Heathrow RADAR head being down for maintenance. (Was doing an IMC detail, in the soup, so RIS would have been more appropriate). Having said that, I was given a few contacts to be aware of. Another a/c in the area also had me on their TCAS. I guess we could have just had a chat amongst ourselves and sorted out which bit of the cloud layer we each wanted to use!

I try to use the service every time I leave the circuit, provided it's within their watch times. I just wish everyone in the area would call, so that the service is comprehensive. I happened to mention the other day that it was fairly quiet, the resonse was
'there's a lot out there, but not talking to me'.
'Shame', I said.

TheOddOne

[chevvron]

At various times today I worked a total of 4 Hawks, 2 Gnats, 1 Strikemaster, 1 Hunter, 1 Tornado and 1 Harrier all doing more than 250kts. With traffic like that flashing about under the LTMA, it's in your best interests to give us a call!!

[jollyrog]

> it's in your best interests to give us a call!!

I did, but as before, I didn't get any answer. Called 4 times, gave up and went back to Headcorn.

I wil try again next time though.

[drambuster]

Go to various places in Europe and get a FIS which, remarkably, resembles our RIS

Lurking 123 has a good point . . .fly through Germany or France and the FIS service is radar all the way (Germany is particularly brilliant - more like a personal back-up service . . . if only that were the case here!!)

Coming back from a recent trip to Hungary (radar FIS), via Austria (radar FIS), Germany and France (both radar FIS as stated), it was a real let down entering London Information (no radar) to be asked to repeat the standard mantra that "I acknowledge that I will avoid controlled airspace" etc etc. What a load of boll**ks. This is just a stupid sop instigated by their 'health & safety' advisor - but what is the point of this nonsense ?? :ugh: Either I have prepared properly for the flight and know exactly where I am and what height/route to follow or I am a total imbecile (who forgot to check sufficient fuel for flight, left the gear down, doors open, flys open etc) in which case what the hell does it matter if I confirm back that all will be fine . . . .as i'm going to bust airspace anyway !! :\

What a pleasure it was to get shot of them just past Lydd and to switch to the new Farnborough East frequency. It may not be nation wide (as it is in the rest of Europe as far as I can tell), but it was a great service gratefully received in v.busy airspace. I vote for them taking over the rest of the country ASAP and confining London Information to the knackers yard.

(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime :ok: )

[zkdli]

Hi Drambuster i will pass your Feedback to the ATSAs at Swanwick who work the FIR position - a very profeesional bunch who are very limited in what they can provide because the CAA will not allow them to use radar to provide their service.:rolleyes:

[fisbangwollop]

Quote...."
(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime )Unquote

Thanks for the kind remarks....we are only doing the same as London but not as busy and therefore able to give a bit more time to our customers!!:ok:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[VictorGolf]

Went for the £100 coffee at Andrewsfield on Thursday and making my way back to our strip near Cambridge I wondered which of the various services to use. In the end I squawked 0013 and listened out on Essex on the basis that the airpace is down to 1500ft and I didn't want to infringe. Would I have been better off with Farnborough East, assuming they were operational?

[M609]

Shockingly perhaps, I do belive the Uk is the only country, in Europe at least, which define different levels of FIS. In my neck of the woods VFR flights can only get FIS, and it is (rulebook wise) no business of the pilot how the information is obtained by the ATSU. (In practice it does of course)

But then we have airspace structure a bit closer to common practice in the civilized parts of the world ;)

We let the airspace class dictate the service

[Climb Climb]

Thanks for all the comments about the Farnbrough LARS Service, we are working hard to fully train the last few team members and closures should reduce.

We are having some difficulties with low level RTF coverage on the North sector and our engineers are investigating it to see what we can do to improve it.

One difficulty for us is, if you call and can't be heard, we don't know. If this happens and you have the time it would be really helpful if you could drop us an email at [email protected] and let us know brief details of location, height and route please.

[fisbangwollop]

Come next April FIS, RIS and RAS will be a thing of the past......checkout your ATSOCA review briefing material!!:ok:

[fisbangwollop]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/20070607ATSOCASReviewPhase2report.pdf

[XX621]

Hi Drambuster i will pass your Feedback to the ATSAs at Swanwick who work the FIR position - a very profeesional bunch who are very limited in what they can provide because the CAA will not allow them to use radar to provide their service.:rolleyes:

I visited Swanwick recently and it included a visit to the FIS.

Those guys working London FIS are top notch. Don't fly without them if you're outside a LARS. Also, wearing a London FIS squawk can save you a lot of grief if you lost your way.

re: LARS. I've decided to request Radar Information on first contact. As previous posters have stated, the whole situation can be confusing as you often get radar traffic info anyway. Might as well ask for it from the outset. This game is expensive...lets get our money's worth.

[VictorGolf]

Sorry to bump my earlier query, but is it better to squawk 0013 and monitor Essex or go for an FIS from Farnboro East when transitting East of Stansted below the CTA

[drambuster]

VictorGolf

You are much better off getting a radar service from Farnborough than transponding to Essex that you are listening out on their frequency. I am quite sure that Essex would not blind call traffic conflicts . . . you would only hear from them if you were about to , or had, bust their zone.

It is so busy around the London TMA with everyone crammed in below 2500' that you need all the help you can get. That is why it is so great to have this new radar service (teething problems aside which appear to be nearly sorted) so don't hesitate to give them a call !

Drambuster

NB- not quite sure how far east of Stansted you plan to be, but the map can be found at: www.flyontrack.co.uk/londonnorth.pdf

[VictorGolf]

Thanks Drambuster, I'll give Farnborough a call next time round the zone.

[DC10RealMan]

I was particularly interested in Drambusters comments with regard to the service that I provide as a London Information FISO. I would agree that all pilots should be fully familar with their intended routing and airspace regulations as per the Air Navigation Order and I include myself in that as an operational pilot. I would like to add however that a least 3-10 times a day there is a pilot who is not aware of the boundaries of controlled airspace or believes that they are able to fly through class A airspace either VFR or/and without a clearance as they are allowed to in their own country. I have had quite a few instances of trying to explain to pilots the differences in law between UK rules and regulations and European/US legislation regarding airspace. I would also like to add that given these circumstances we try to "smooth the path" of those pilots whose knowledge is not as great as Drambusters. I would also add that unlike Farnborough we are a 24 hour a day service although there are occasions particularly at 3 o clock in the morning when I wished that we were not. I use London Information all the time as I am aware of the access to a great deal of weather and other pertinant informtion that they have access to. I would also like to apologise to Drambuster for daring to remind him/her of their legal requirements, but that is part of our instructions and training. I personally have no problems with confirming my intentions to London Information and in turn to the radar controllers towards whose airspace I am heading as they can then aware of my intentions and situational awareness.

[DeeCee]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but who is Essex Radar? I've seen this mentioned before.

[Fuji Abound]

Well they were called Stansted approach which gives the game away.

Low level they may provide you with a service around Stansted, City, and Biggin and will handle IFR approaches to these.

The service provided is always excellent but their capacity is often stretched.

Southend "overlap" with their LARS service and are often a better bet low level but their coverage is often poor south west of the Thames due to the location of their head and lack of a direct feed from NATS.

[drambuster]

DC10RealMan:
I would also like to apologise to Drambuster for daring to remind him/her of their legal requirements, but that is part of our instructions and training

There's really no need to take it so personally. As far as I'm concerned your instructions and training on this point are flawed and it is the legal advice behind this that I find so irritating. I am not having a go at you or your operational colleagues personally. However, I am unimpressed with your lawyers as this verbal exchange, whereby you extract from me an acknowledgement that avoidance of controlled airspace is my responsibility, is so pointless. Let me explain why:

* You are a non-radar service so you are never going to be able to see where I am. I think 99.9% of pilots understand the limitations of your service as it never varies. So why do you insist I acknowledge the fact that you don't have radar ? I know that as the situation never changes. Why not just advise the pilot that you don't have radar rather than insisting that he/she repeats back the blindingly obvious? (if you have to draw attention at all to this permanent feature of London Information)

* Contrast your situation with a radar service such as Farnborough: the performance of their equipment varies depending on the weather etc. Therefore it is important that all parties understand if there is a limited service that day - and so a read-back confirming the status is essential AS IT VARIES.

* If you (and by that I mean your managers/lawyers) feel it is so important to get me to confirm the obvious, then why not ask me to verify that I have sufficient fuel for flight and have checked the weather at destination? If buggins the barrister feels it important to intrude on my responsibilities as PIC then why just stop at airspace intrusions ? Why not go for the whole hog and take over the flight?

As a general overview I have to reflect on why Scottish Information works so well but London Info does not. The answer is quite simple - the density of air traffic in the south east, all crammed in at low level, renders a background info service of limited value. The biggest threat is from other aircraft and I have often thought when dodging traffic in bottle necks such as Biggin Hill . . . what the hell am I doing listening to some bloke giving a five minute position report over Cheltenham with you getting clarification of his next six turning points . . . when I should be talking to a radar service and helping everyone keep safe !! - and now I can with the advent of Farnborough East/North etc. hallelujah :}

Scottish works because the threat of imminent impact with other aircraft is probably a factor of a hundredfold less, so other matters such as weather reports, inhospitable terrain, military exercises, divert options etc etc become the predominate interests. I find the service up there is a genuine aid to flight safety and the lack of radar is not a problem.

So this comes down to a matter of traffic density . . . and not a personal criticism of you. As a pilot I am duty bound to express my opinion which is that London Information is no longer fit for purpose without radar equipment. As a tax payer I would be happy to fork up :)

happy flying

[fisbangwollop]

The main reason why we at Scottish have a little bit more time to talk to our customers is that Scottish Information on 119.875 only provides a service at and below FL55. Above those levels you will recieve either FIS or RIS from a very busy radar sector. I know my opo's at London info operate a greater area and up to FL 195 so therfore the traffic density is greater and the available time to pass info is more accute....that said I am sure they provide as good a service as the service you say you recieve from ourselves here at Scottish.:ok::ok:

[ATCO Two]

Fuji Abound, it is Thames Radar that provide the approach radar service to London City and Biggin Hill, and handles their instrument approaches.
Essex Radar provides the initial approach function for Stansted and Luton. When Luton inbounds are clear of conflicting Stansted traffic, Essex transfers them to Luton Approach.

[Fuji Abound]

ATCO Two

Sorry, yes thank you for the correction you are of course right.