C206 PIC or C208B co-pilot ?

[flyinggoose]

This is a bit of a hyperthetical question,but has been playing on my mind for a while.
I am just coming up to finishing my com and may be fortunate enough to have the choice of either going onto a 206 or a Van.
With the 206, i should get comand pretty soon,(with the opportunity to get onto the van later), but with the choice of going onto the van imediately i will most likely sit as co for some time,possibly 500hours.

I know there are lots of other factors that come into play but trying to keep the question simple to start with..in terms of experience for a fresh com pilot,is the PIC 206 beter than sitting co on the van,even though its turbine?

Thanks for any advise..

[VortexGen300]

My opinion:

Turbine time is worth its weight in gold ?
Just be careful for the co-pilot time will only count if you and the PIC have MCC and it is required by the rules to have a co-pilot (IMC / Night / more than 9 pax etc).

PIC time you will need it anyway?

Good luck

VG300

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Nothing special about turbines.

Multi command time is what counts.

[VortexGen300]

Hi Twotter

Yes I will agree 100% that Multi P1 is better, but the question was 208 or 206 and then 208 is better in comparison?

Very few guys will let you go PIC on a Multi before 400 - 600 hours TT - and even then it will be tough. A lot of the commercial operators' insurance have 600+ TT and 50 hours on type to go P1 on a multi engine.

So some will have to drive 200 - 400 hours in singles to get there.

The other option would be to go contracting where some guys will take one at 300 TT as P2 on an Embraer 120.

So yes this is again just my input.

VG300

[flux]

Hey flyingoose, glad to hear you have some options. In my personal opinion, I would take the Van job. Not sure who it is for, but I think it has two advantages. Firstly once one has finished a comm (although a big deal) there is a huge amount to be learnt. Being a P2 has the advantage of learning some of the little lessons from a skip who has already frightened the S:mad:t out of himself. And secondly most of the Van jobs doing the rounds operate not only out of small ****ty strips, but also major airports. My two cents. Hope it all works out for you, good luck with the last bits of the comm.

[Malagant]

Agree with Flux, its good experience on the C208 with someone that has been around and you can just about do with a Van in the bush than you can with a 206..if you go the 206 route you might be held on the 206 if the company is short of skippers on the 206 and then you battle to get on the 208..and Federal operate 208`s in SA so you can come back here and fly in SA but no one operates 206`s in SA..Good luck..:)

[hjmemon]

well i am new here,,,,i have FAA CPL/IR single and multi engine with some 910 hours (only 25 multi) n CAA(pakistan) cpl/ir......any chance to get a job around africa on the aircrafts mentioned in the post....
Thanks

[The Hill]

Go to Maun, best flying you'll ever do!! Start on C206, end up on Van

[hjmemon]

@The Hill
any website and/or contact deatils pls???????
btw Thanks.

[Agaricus bisporus]

On the other hand, what the hell can a P2 on a Van actually do? What on earth is the point???

I suggest you'll be ready to shoot yourself with boredom and frustration within a month.

Turbine time, as you said, will come. Well, then let it! But do something useful in the meantime. I can't see what 1,000 hrs as P2 on a Van is worth to a future employer, less than 100 as P1 on a 206 IMHO.

[big buddah]

My 2 cents worth.
There is actually no such thing as a P2 on a caravan. So be very careful going this way. As many future employers and foreign CAA will not count this time towards your total.
Better in my opinion to get the P1 time on the 206 then go P1 on the Van.
Also If you going to be sitting next to someone in a Van they probably don't have a high total time which can actually do more damage with bad habits to your flying than being by yourself.

BB

[dartagnan]

go for van job, after 500 hours, u will go as PIC.many operators worldwide here looking for van pilot with good experience.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Yes I will agree 100% that Multi P1 is better, but the question was 208 or 206 and then 208 is better in comparison?

My point being multi time and command time are more desirable, in that order. Turbine time is nothing special except to those who like to wave their willies at their piston driving friends and colleagues. If it was something desirable, there would be a column in your logbook to note that time (unless my old logbook is out of date and there is such a column these days).


A well known SAA training captain terminated the interview of a fortunate young lady who claimed she didn't need multi piston time in her logbook as she did her initial multi engine rating on a B200 and was now flying that. Skipping steps in the natural progression may have consequences that could bite us later.

[flux]

Solid Rust Twotter, I normally agree with your posts, but not this one. The world has changed. In the old days pistons were a necesarry step, why now? If I was employing someone, I dont think I would give a rats about a 210, or 206. It has a little more power than what you trained on - So what? I would imagine VFR operation, never having to look in the books for WAT limits, weight and balance, etc etc. I still believe that the Van job is the way to go, and as for a 1000 Hrs in the right seat, it will never happen. You will look at 500 hrs at most - Most operators swap seats - So it makes no difference. And as I said before, you have the benefit of I guy in the seat next to you that has seen weather etc, and has some knowledge to pass on to you.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Fair enough. However, I find that those who have done the hard yards as commander of light piston singles and twins rather than the instant low time right seat heroes on turbines, do tend to have a better grip on the realities of the job and are more confident without being cocky. They also have superior engine management skills and tend to be better at operating without supervision.

2c worth...

[flux]

I still don't agree whole hartedly, but you may have a point. Keep the blue bits on the top. :ok: Cheers flux.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Have to agree that SRT's posts are usually very wonderful and well written as well!
However, would like to raise a few points which will probably do nothing but muddy the lower reaches of the Limpopo.

The 208 is usually operated as a two crew aircraft although it is certified for single crew?
flyinggoose's 208 is operated as a two crew machine, otherwise he wouldn't be sitting as co-pilot on it.
Two crew operational experience and the necessary CRM that goes with it is quite important in the career path.
Turbine handling is almost a prerequisite to transitioning to the simpler operation of jet engined aircraft.
From about the end of May this year, the SA CAA is, I think, going to require any ATPL initial flight test to be flown on a multi crew aircaft over 5,700kgs.
The stepping stone from a 208 to a Beech 200 is slightly smaller than it would be from a 206.
Any girl who told me at an interview that she didn't need piston time would be classed by me as being equally as arrogant as am I, although a damned sight more stupid, and rejected on the spot.

Would flyinggoose not be able to suffer some more and get an Instructor Rating while he is fresh in study mode? Thus would he acquire command time. There are a lot of opportunities for instructors in SA at the moment.
How can one be a co-pilot on a Cessna 206 (974kgs) ? How long would it take in the circumstances to rack up 500 hours on the 208 before possibly advancing to command? How old is flyinggoose and can he afford the time?

One final small but quite important little possible clincher in all of this might be which aircraft would provide the more amusing sort of flying?

It's got to be the 208 and a Grade III in one's spare time?:eek:

[Malagant]

Old days there were many pistons around, Barons, Senecas etc was the norm and you could only dream of getting on that B200, now not many companies operate them, pistons that is..now B200 are easy to get on and B1900`s are getting to be utilized and taking over from the B200, and alot of EMB 120 Brazilia`s are finding their way into the market, so unless you really intent on flying a piston go the Maun route, but if you get on a Van you not goiing to be sitting right too long.. if you have piston time you goiing to start right seat anyway on the Van..so why waste the time on piston..and whoever mentioned that turbine time doesn`t count for much it does and actually count quite alot..:=

[Solid Rust Twotter]

One final small but quite important little possible clincher in all of this might be which aircraft would provide the more amusing sort of flying?

C206 in the swamps without a doubt, but then again I'm a Luddite.

Most respectable interviewers are more interested in multi and command time. There's no mystique about turbines and the initial rating is easily carried out while being type rated. These days the first few hours on turbines are carried out in the right seat in any case so it's all pretty moot. I get the idea it's the quickie-twice-around-the-patch operators who want turbine time to avoid having to pay for an initial rating while bonding you till your wallet squeaks.

2c worth. Use, don't use. :hmm:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

An interviewer in the future would just view the fact that one had no piston time and that one's first job had been on a turbine as nothing more than good luck.
There is no rule that says one must go out and suffer as did the forefathers, I, and no doubt, some of the better pilots around the globe.
Trouble with being stuck in the swamps is that so often one never hears what is happening in the jungle until another tiger has eaten your nilgai.


My $2 bill's worth. Definitely to be passed by untouched!:suspect:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Quite so. However, it's not about piston or turbine time. It's about command time and later on, multi time. The turbine time is merely a sideshow as it's not something deemed of sufficient gravity or relevance to be reflected in one's logbook.

At the end of the day, the original poster should do whatever brings him naches.











(Nilgai - Deer, oh deer....:}:ok:)

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

CAP 407.
Civil Aviation Authority (UK)
Personal flying log book
(aircraft operating crew)

Holder's operating capacity.


P/UT.....Pilot / Underslung Turbine?:confused:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Question asked in a South African context IINM. Don't think there's a column for engine type in the old TV 2/126.

[Talon1]

SRT
Well said. Command time should be priority... turbine, piston, single or twin, it does'nt matter what, or how many donkeys are pulling the cart... your decision making skills and command experience/potential will benefit the most. Especially for future employment.:cool:

[judy the rudder]

P1 time is king on whatever it is - down the line you may end up missing an opportunity because you dont have enough p1 time well thats what I think anyway.dd

[flyinggoose]

Thanks to all for their opinions,verry interesting.

I find the discussion was initially focusiing on the ac type and now on the importance of command time! Great.
Then to me it would seem that going on the 206 for a while with the possibility to move up to the van a bit later mite just be the beter option. Im not old, but at the age where i dont want to be wasting time if i can avoid it.

Im sure doing some time on the 206 would then also make my transition to the van a bit easier, aswell as reducing my time i would sit as P2 on the van before getting command of it?
Maybe getting onto the van a little later on,by going the 206 route first,but having a good couple hundred hours as PIC under my belt may be beter than going P2 van from start,leaving me with verry few PIC hours.

Thanks again...:ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

The C208 is a single engine, single crew, light weight puddle jumper.
For the purposes of your log book I really cannot see why you should not simpy log all the time you spend in the aircraft as P1. I am sure that you can log the time you actually handle the machine as P1. Perhaps you could give SA/CAA a telephone call or drop round there and have a word with a Flight Ops Inspector and see if such a scheme would be realistic even if it might not appeal entirely to the hour counting purists.
In any event, the best of luck with your plots and plans. The patter part of the instructors rating is easy enough and FTS at FAGC have an excellent book on patter technique which they sell for some no too outrageous price.
:)

Was there not a sudden change of posts just above?

[flyinggoose]

Yip
Sorry Cavortingcheetah, i hadnt read all the posts before submitting,bit new at this game.
Agree with your idea of the instructing,especialy part time,buiding some PIC,however dont think it would be possible in the near future with the extra cost implication,but may be a work in progress.

Thanks for your ideas.Hope i didnt mes you around with the posts. Cheers

[cavortingcheetah]

:)
No worries and good luck.;)

[Sir Osis of the river]

Came to this thread a bit late.

Recently transitioning from one widebody to another, with over 10 000hrs in the logbook, had to fill in the paperwork and TOTAL PIC time was one of the requirements, but there was no column or block for turbine time.

That should tell you something.

Safe flying.

[Contract Dog]

SIR OSIS! its been a while! I thought that river of yours may have finally dried up:E

As for the 206 and 208, I have 1000 hrs on each and If I were to do it all over again, I would not change a thing. I flew the 206 up to 1300 hrs total time (about 1000 on type) and then did the Van rating, because of my total command time I did 2 months on the Van and then got command on it. So as a result I have managed to keep a very high command time versus P2 time which as a result means that getting command on the next machine never takes.

The 206, though piston, was the most fun I have ever had flying and tought me a lot about myself and aviation. You dont have room to cock up because there is only you and the machine and no one to baby sit you. Granted, you wont fly IF and night, but that will come in time.

Then look at some of my 300hr Van co pilots, they had to do 1200 hrs in the right seat (time that your log book makes no provision to log toward total time) before they could get command. By the time they got command, they were so bored of the Van that they went and got 200 or 1900 ratings and then got P2 positions on them. The problem with that is that on contract, you will never get command until you have at least 3000 hrs, so by flying vans now, you are setting yourself up for 3000 hrs of p2 time.

Dog

[skytops]

208: vote.

[Rude Boy]

Go for the 206. All the reasons stated above in favour of the 206 are extremely valid. The main point being that the earlier you develop your own judgment ability through your own experiences and mistakes the better. You won't achieve this as effectively by sitting next to someone else, regardless of what anyone says. Although the van may be a slightly larger aircraft and be turbine powered, the benefits of the 206 experience are still abundant, as subtle as they may be.

[lowbypass]

Go enjoy the 206, it has very good ventillation!
P1 comes first...

[Malagant]

Not many crew I know that has 3000hrs sitting on a Van these days and not everyone at for example Federal Air has to have 3000hrs to fly P1 on the van, who is flying their 1900`s then, 6000hr pilots? Just too many jobs around, many crew flying P1 on 200s with like 1500 to 2000hrs..! With 1500hrs and ATP writtens you can just about get into Nationwide. Know some guy`s flying co-jo on Lear 35 and Citation with just over 1200hrs. Maybe you didn`t have a block in the logbook that says TURBINE time but most companies will ask you how much turbine time you have..500 hrs turbine counts lot more that 1000hr piston, if you flew around the pattern instructing or flew around Maun..ok you might have bush experience but some companies don`t like that kind of experience..so its a a question what you keen to do or what is best for your career path you

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Sort of on topic...

THIS IS DEDICATED TO ALL WHO FLEW IN RADIAL ENGINE POWERED AIRCRAFT

We gotta get rid of those turbines; they're ruining aviation and our hearing ... A turbine is too simple minded, it has no mystery. The air travels through it in a straight line and doesn't pick up any of the pungent fragrance of engine oil or pilot sweat.

Anybody can start a turbine. You just need to move a switch from "OFF" to "START" and then remember to move it back to "ON" after a while. My computer is harder to start.

Cranking a radial engine requires skill, finesse and style. You have to seduce it into starting. It's like waking up a horny mistress. On some planes, the pilots aren't even allowed to do it.. .

Turbines start by whining for a while, then give a lady-like poof and start whining a little louder.

Radial engines give a satisfying rattle-rattle, click-click, BANG, more rattles, another BANG, a big macho fart or two, more clicks, a lot more smoke and finally a serious low pitched roar. We like that. It's a GUY thing ...

When you start a radial engine, your mind is engaged and you can concentrate on the flight ahead. Starting a turbine is like flicking on a ceiling fan. It is useful, but hardly exciting.

When you have started his radial engine successfully, your crew chief looks up at you like he'd let you kiss his girl too!

Turbines don't break or catch fire often enough, which leads to aircrew boredom, complacency and inattention. A radial engine at speed looks and sounds like it's going to blow any minute. This helps concentrate the mind! Turbines don't have enough control levers or gauges to keep a pilot's attention. There's nothing to fiddle with during long flights.

Turbines smell like a Boy Scout camp full of Coleman Lamps. Radial engines smell like God intended machines to smell.

[Malagant]

Can see that came staight from the heart..but not many true radial engines still around..so if you have it, lucky you..but look after that horny old mistress..many around who would like to get their grubby little hands on her..hehe..:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Unfortunately down to a couple of DC4s, DC3s, Spammies, Yaks and the odd crop duster.

Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted...:ok:

[dnk]

My 2c - I did 206 work in Bots - got 1000hrs PIC there now Im flying P1 on the Van.. I wouldnt give that PIC time up for anything!

Plus flying a 206 around the Okavango was one of the best years of my life!

[Propellerpilot]

Go fly the 206 - reasons plenty above. The only thing operators are interested in are their insurance premiums and that is why they want pilots with thousands of hours PIC operating everything that is worth more than a million U$. The Van is just as easy to operate as the 206 - a 210 is apparantly more difficult. Flying is not rocket science, but we all have to prove ourselves and the best way to do that is to fly PIC as much as possible.

Don't want to hurt anybody's feelings but flying the Van as P2 is a waste of time. Also tend to agree with SRT - PIC time and then a bit of MEP to transition to MET.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Seems as though the options are more or less as follows.

Fly 208 as co-pilot.
Fly 208 as co-pilot and do Grade 111 for command time experience.
(Not feasible economically apparently.)
Fly 208 as co-pilot and log all hours as P1.
(Might raise an eyebrow.)
Fly 206 as Pilot in Command.

Having read all the posts from so many distinguished luminaries of aviation and while still advocating the instructor route, have to be swayed and say that the 206 P1 route does seem the better option of those available to you.
If you can get to Maun to fly the delta, that would be an experience and would add lustre to your baseball cap. Don't foget to keep a very succinct and pithy diary of your time there. No one seems to have worked out that the memoir route is as available to pilots as it is to politicians and prostitutes. Pack a decent camera too, something like a Leica R 6.2 which is impervious to dust, heat or shock drops. Second hand, expensive and film loading it's still by far the best working camera available anywhere for Africa and the bush.
:D

[flyinggoose]

Lots of valid reasons for the 206.
Seems like the PIC time and the experience from doing things and geting some things wrong sometimes on your own,is really worth while in terms of the experience gained, and makes sense to me.
Think PIC should come first at the moment to create a good platform of experience to then upgrade from.

Cavortingcheetah,im still writing the next instructors exams,about 2 weeks to go so gota pull finger a bit, so will be keeping the instructors rating in mind but think ill most likely be packing my camera.

Thanks to all for their advise and ideas :ok:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

It's been very interesting all round.
Best of luck with the exams. Don't forget, RTFQ!
Twice over.
CC

[fastnreckless]

Go for the 206!!!!!!
The 208 co-pilot time counts for absolutely zero. You will get there in the end anyway. A 208 is not a 2 crew aircraft and would mean the same as 206 time in the right hand seat. Forget the turbine it will come. People are forgetting the value of making a decision on your own in a light piston.

Trust me it helps in the long run, and also means alot more towards that ALTP. Enjoy the 206.