Alpa Voted Out Of Usairways

[sevenstrokeroll]

April 17, the NMB announced that ALPA IS OUT at USAIRWAYS and USAPA is in...500 vote margin.

[beerdrinker]

Standby for the smart ass remark from 411A. (Smart ass for colonial cousins, smart arse for the Brits)

[tkdmasterdon]

USAPA is the association of choice now and I am sure that with a little time they will far exceed ALPA as the association of choice and hopefully will work for the pilots and not for themselves.
American West Pilot threatened a USAirays pilot in Pheonix the other day when the pilot said USAPA instead of USAirways. The pilot of the USAirways jet corrected himself immediately but then the America West Pilot responded with a threat to meet the pilot outside as in a fight threat./ Little does the America West Pilot know that the USAirways pilot was a Master in Martial Arts and a past National full contact champion. I guess we all have to be careful who we threaten.:O

[411A]

Just for beerdrinkers benefit...

ALPA, it seems to me, has not truly represented its associated pilots for quite some time.
Instead, it appears that ALPA's primary goal is to collect dues in order to keep its top officials in high clover for the rest of their natural lives.

This perhaps was not true thirty years ago, but certainly appears so, now.

However, having said all this, it would appear that while ALPA was representing the original USAirways pilots (USAirways east, if you will), the union, and a majority of their pilots agreed to binding arbitration, with regard to the integration of the two pilots senority lists.
I wonder if the original USAirways pilots truly understand the term binding.
I suspect not
In any event, as can be clearly seen with the two companies 'merger' the relative merits of this fact will remain quite a battle for the forseeable future.
If we look at this from a truly objective perspective, it is rather obvious that had the 'merger' not taken place, and the original USAirways not been bought (or as the original USAirways pilots like to call it, a merged) by another carrier, they would have been long out of business, ALPA/USAPA notwithstanding.

[Huck]

They're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, unless oil goes back down....

[411A]

They're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, unless oil goes back down....

And, while all that shuffling of chairs continues, Americans will just have to realise that they will ,at some point, need to pay a reasonable, cost-effective airfare, to travel from A to B.
Otherwise, American air carriers will go....kaput.

[Wino]

Just to clarify,
Its not that the USAir pilots agreed to binding arbitration, its that ALPA mandated it after a certain point.

That arbitrator (Nicalou) then made a mistake (actually a couple of them) and the problem with binding arbitration is that there is no avenue to correct mistakes once they have been made. (APA experienced this with a sick arbitration vs AA)

The two mistakes were that the east seniority list was incorrect. ALPA national could have corrected it, but prater did not. The other mistake was that basically no fences were put in place. The fairness of a merger is determined much more by the fences then the actual seniority number that you receive.

A fence around what you brought to the merger provides the fairness. Instead West basically grabbed all of East's retirements. For a guy that spends 20-25 years waiting for some asshole to retire, that's a pretty tough nut to swallow. West could have fenced philly off and saved the deal (even after the award) but nope... They got greedy.

It is not at all clear what this means in the future. The list will stand, but just what the list is used for may very well change. As you know there are many different ways to look at things, and Longevity could be used for bidding rather than seniority...

Cheers
Wino

[sevenstrokeroll]

I didn't think you made a smart ass comment.

I do however think your understanding of this merger might be flawed...as was alpa merger policy and its execution in this situation.

I also think that there is enough information available to show that america west was very close to liquidation too.

Strangely enough we do agree that alpa has been more interested in getting dues than doing things for pilots. and the pay rates for alpa executive officers is HUGE.

and if BINDING arbitration was truly binding, why has ALPA been campaigning to find a solution to the arbitration?

No, this was a flawed application of the merger policy. Indeed, even the pilot list seemed to miss a number of pilots.

I wish the very best to USAPA. I voted for them and sent them money. The victory was not a narrow one. Almost 500 votes. Their principles seem to be guided by what alpa once was.

I also remind all that the mechanics union and flight attendants union both opted for date of hire for seniority integration. This seems to counter any of the incorrect rumors about the entire merger "saving" usair.

[GlueBall]

But the big ALPA pow-wow will take center stage when the fly boys from DL and NW slug it out. :eek:

[sevenstrokeroll]

United and other airlines may be reconsidering ALPA as their agents. United and Delta came up with the idea of throwing out date of hire...they may live to regret it.

They might even follow the usair example.

[sevenstrokeroll]

america west pilots might be screaming about careers...and I understand.

you see, I was promised captaincy in less than 5 years and I was paying for it then with the "B" scale.

but we got into the first gulf war, a downturn in the economy, and a bit of skulduggery.

so, careers...where does career protection start?

[Huck]

so, careers...where does career protection start?

'Tis one thing for outside forces to wreck a fine young pilot's hopes.

'Tis quite another when one pays dues to someone who throws a massive spanner in your works.

We've got ~150 over-60 pilots who were over 60 the day the rule changed. We didn't want them back up front. The company didn't want them back up front. ALPA national didn't want them back up front. No other MEC wanted the back up front. But our chair got it done, thus costing me about another two years in the right seat.

I can take the rule change, I guess. Those "outside forces." But not the retro. I've got the privilege of paying the salary of the man that did that one to me....

[5030N]

Wino,

Your post clarified nothing. It simply parroted the USAPA party line.

The east Merger Comm had 18 months to negotiate a senioity list. They refused to budge from a Date of Hire proposal that would have effectively stapled 2/3 of the AWA seniority list below pilots who were furloughed at the time. They then were afforded mediation in an attempt to craft a merged list. That failed as well, due to their continued insistence on DOH. Arbitration followed, before a panel that they helped select. The east stuck to their DOH stance throughout the proceedings, even after being told by the arbitration panel that it was patently unfair, and would not be the rationale for a Merged list. They went for broke, and got their dose of reality.

The seniority list submitted during the arbitration process was vetted by the MEC selected Merger Comm and showed pilots at subsidiary Mid Atlantic as being in a furlough status. In order to have been eligible for a job at Mid Atlantic, you had to have been furloughed from mainline. The affected pilots claim that Mid Atlantic was a part of the mainline seniority list, and thus their status as "furloughed" should be in question. That claim will be determined through legal proceedings, but I wouldn't wager the farm on their claims being upheld.

Have you read the Nicolau award and opinion?

It might clear up some of your misconceptions about the alleged "mistakes". Fences were included the award, BTW.

The award followed the ALPA merger policy exactly as required.

The policy only became "flawed", the arbitrator "senile", and the seniorty list "bogus" when the award was published and the east didn't get their way.

Until that happened, they were perfectly happy with the policy, viewed the selection of Nicolau as a plus for their side (due to his previous rulings), and had no problems with the seniority list.

At the time of the merger, AWA was taking delivery of new airplanes, hiring pilots, and was not in bankruptcy.

US Airways was shrinking, had over 1500 pilots on furlough, and was in its second bankruptcy.

Any reasonable person would have to come to the conclusion that the career expectations of the group were vastly different. Nicolau acknowledged these differences, and accounted for them in the award.

The USAPA movement has absolutely nothing to do with the "failings" of ALPA, or any lack of representation.

It is nothing more than an attempt to circumvent an arbitration decision, disenfranchise the west pilots, and impose the tyranny of the majority.

It's nothing more than the reaction of petulant chidren who didn't get their way.

[pakeha-boy]

WINO QUOTE.....West could have fenced philly off and saved the deal (even after the award) but nope... They got greedy.

WINO....crawl back down the hole you came out of....

[sevenstrokeroll]

there is so much more to this situation than 5030N might have you believe.

USAIR east is getting more widebody planes. Has recalled all furloughed pilots. It has options for more narrowbody aircraft too.

Taking a picture of an airline on one day can show many things.

I recall a day or two in the history of America West airlines where you could say:

the airline was bankrupt.

the airline was having trouble with the FAA over maintenance issues ( a personal friend wrote up the rudder on a 737 and it was removed from the mx log and never fixed)

And that America West Pilots went to Australia to scab.

ALPA is out. Fair and square. The Nicolau award, a flawed document and currently contested in court, has not been implemented.

The majority of all usair pilots voted for USAPA and its hallmark is seniority is by Date of Hire. That is it.

I can take a picture of your airline on any day of my choice and prove that you don't have the right to be a captain.

BUT who would you rather have as a captain. Someone with 20 years of service or someone with 3 years of service?

[5030N]

Sevenstrokeroll,

Your posts are such a perfect example of the alternate reality mindset so prevalent on your side, that I hardly know where to start.

Can you show me one example of the Nicolau award that did not conform to merger policy? It's funny how you USAPA types are so fond of screaming about that, yet you can never cite a concrete example except for the nebulous "windfall" argument.

Your assertion that AWA was "close to liquidation" is ludicrous. You might try reading the pertinent SEC 10K's for the reporting period just prior to the merger announcement. But that might be a little too much reality. Your continued inability to come to grips with the diminished value of your career expectations as a result of your company's poor financial health is at the root of all this.

As for binding arbitration, you, Seeham, and the rest of the yellow lanyard gang will soon come to the realization that "binding" means just that. Of course, "binding" arbitration was quite allright with you guys, as long as you could impose DOH on the west, right?

As for "career protections", a good place to start would be the day before this merger was announced. The expectations to be protected were vastly different, and were accounted for in the Nicolau award.

As for USAPA's "principles", the only "principle" they have is to subvert the seniority award. If USAPA doesn't exist solely as a vehicle to screw the west, then why not give up the quest to reorder the list?

They can't because that's the only reason they exist.

"Senority Matters" but so does integrity, and so far, your side has shown a real lack of it.

[sevenstrokeroll]

I can see that 5030N has a real axe to grind.

We will not solve the problems here on this forum. It will probably go to the courts.

ALPA is no longer at USAIRWAYS. A federal authority says so. Courts are likely to give this situation weight.

My date of hire was june 20, 1988...just for fun, what is yours?

I got my ATP in 1981. Just for fun, when did you get yours?

I was a captain on a 737 on Sept. 11, 2001. Any downturn at usair was largely due to this tragedy. DCA was closed for many weeks causing a huge problem.


Are you taking advantage of a national tragedy and its effect on an airline?


I hope you answer the above questions concerning your atp and doh.

[5030N]

Sevenstrokeroll said,

there is so much more to this situation than 5030N might have you believe.

Actually not much more.

All that's going on is a blatant attempt to get around an arbitration decision that you don't like, an arbitration that you willingly entered into, that gave you ample opportunity to present your arguments, and that was decided before a neutral third party that you selected.

USAIR east is getting more widebody planes. Has recalled all furloughed pilots. It has options for more narrowbody aircraft too.

And all that has taken place post merger.

Was any of that true the day prior to this merger?

Taking a picture of an airline on one day can show many things.

But only one day counts, for integration purposes, and that is the snapshot date on which the PID is implemented.

On that day the relative career expectations of the two groups were vastly different.

I'll review them since you seem to have a great capacity to ignore them.

AWA was solvent, accepting aircraft deliveries, and hiring pilots.

US Airways was in its second bankruptcy, was shrinking, and had over 1500 pilots on furlough with little expectation of recall.
I recall a day or two in the history of America West airlines where you could say:

the airline was bankrupt.

the airline was having trouble with the FAA over maintenance issues ( a personal friend wrote up the rudder on a 737 and it was removed from the mx log and never fixed)

And that America West Pilots went to Australia to scab.

All of the above is true, and is completely irelevant in the narrow context of this seniority list integration.

ALPA is out. Fair and square.

The Nicolau award, a flawed document and currently contested in court, has not been implemented.

It's a "flawed document" because you didn't like the outcome, and for no other reason.

The ALPA Executive Council judged it to be without material grounds to be withheld, and no court, irrespective of what your dubious new lawyer is telling you, will overturn a federal arbitration case without compelling evidence of fraud.

The majority of all usair pilots voted for USAPA and its hallmark is seniority is by Date of Hire. That is it.

Not that big a majority. There are only about 1600 AWA pilots, 98% of whom voted for ALPA; yet ALPA garnered 2200 votes. Where did those other 600 votes come from?

And I'm glad that you admitted that USAPA is about nothing more than DOH.

You do know why Nicolau told your Merger Comm that DOH was not going to work in this case, right?

It was because the institution of straight DOH would have egregiously disadvantaged the west pilots and removed from them those real, identifiable career expectations that existed for them on the PID.

Yet, you deem it quite alright for USAPA to attempt the same thing.


I can take a picture of your airline on any day of my choice and prove that you don't have the right to be a captain.

But again, the only date that counts is the snapshot date.
See above.

BUT who would you rather have as a captain. Someone with 20 years of service or someone with 3 years of service?

Ahh, the "rookie" argument.

Somehow I knew that would come out. It always does when you run out of facts. (There are no 3 year CA's on the west side, and there won't be under Nicolau)

Actally, I'd like to have as captain someone who's integrity is not in question, who doesn't let emotion rule their thinking, and is firmly grounded in the reality of their situation.

So far, I've met damn few easties who meet that criterion.

[5030N]

Sevenstrokeroll said,

I can see that 5030N has a real axe to grind.

Nope. No axe to grind.

I've offered civil (as civil as I'm able to) refutations of some of your more absurd arguments and reflections on the situation at US Airways and the Nicolau list.

The idea that someone should dare refute your assertions seems to be a problem for you.

We will not solve the problems here on this forum. It will probably go to the courts.

It has already "gone to the courts", and will likely do so repeatedly until the splinter group you call a "representative union" is bankrupt and gone.

One can only hope that, then, in the full light of day, it will be shown for what it is.

ALPA is no longer at USAIRWAYS. A federal authority says so. Courts are likely to give this situation weight.

Not as much as you have been led to believe.

My date of hire was june 20, 1988...just for fun, what is yours?

Ahh, the old "I'm out of arguments, let's measure willies" response.

I wasn't at AWA in 1988, but my major airline career started in 1989.

I got my ATP in 1981. Just for fun, when did you get yours?

1986.

What's your point?

I was a captain on a 737 on Sept. 11, 2001. Any downturn at usair was largely due to this tragedy.

The downturn at every major airline in this country can be traced back to that day.

What are you saying, that you and the east pilots should now be exempt from the effects of this?

That you should be able to recapture the careers you had prior to that day by disadvantaging the west to make you whole?

That sense of naked entitlement, that you are somehow "owed", is what led to your inability to reach a negotiated list, you know.

Sorry your career has been difficult.

But it is not incumbent upon me or any other west pilot to make you whole for what you lost.


DCA was closed for many weeks causing a huge problem.


Are you taking advantage of a national tragedy and its effect on an airline?

"Taking advantage of a national tragedy"?????

That's not even rational.

News flash for you-- neither you, I, nor anyone else in this industry had the same career expectations in 2006 that they did in 2000. Make friends with that idea. Nicolau and the arbitraton panel did, and so should you.


I hope you answer the above questions concerning your atp and doh.

[sevenstrokeroll]

It is interesting to note that you didn't put down your date of hire at America West. Because of this, I will discontinue the argument and leave it to the courts and laws.

if you are former TWA, you have my sympathy.

if you are former USAIR, quit and went to America West, you have my sympathy.

If you are one of the founders of the america west protective group...I understand.

over and out

[skyryder]

It is in someways a sad day. While I don't have a dog in this fight, I have in the past and probably will in the future. I will say this, "former" ALPA members will see what all the dues money went to pay for, and I suspect it will be a rude surprise. Who knows if they will allow them to reopen the award, I wouldn't think so, but you never know in front of a judge.
I do know that the legal fees will be expensive, and good luck collecting an assesment from those that are "happy" with the award. There is a lot of precedence that says if won't happen. The U.S. Air merger committee did everything but spit in the face of the arbitrator, given that even after being told not to focus on senoirity issues, their case did exactly that.
I also know that historically the U.S. Air MEC has been a bit of a wildcard. At a BOD meeting a few years ago they gave their word to vote for a certain canidate, only to change at the last minute.
I wonder if U.S. Air got a little of what they started with the way they treated the Piedmont and Empire mergers.
They next few years will be interesting to watch, I suspect the new union will tear itself apart, most of the time peace is much more difficult to win than the war to obtain it. I believe this may turn out to be one of those, be careful what you ask for......but hey I could be wrong.

[picollo]

I understand that the US Air pilots have had a tough career, I understand that they have been run over quite a few times,

But I fail to understand why the America West guys should subsidize the careers of the US Air pilots.
How is this a "Union" if they are willing to steamroll the west pilots?
I had heard that career cancer was not transferable, the east guys just proved that theory wrong.


Good Luck to all

[Wino]

5030,

I read the award cover to cover!. Have you? The fence was a joke and fell the instant age 65 went through.

The fairness of a merger is NEVER determined by DOH. NO one is EVER satisfied with that (unless they are made the absolute top banana) as it does nothing to protect what you brought to the table (unless of course you are made number 1, which over the long term is what was EXACTLY done for the AMwest pilots, since the USair pilots will retire en masse in a very short period of time)

The fairness of a merger is determined by fences. Even if they had fenced off only philly and not the rest of the USair operation there would have been something approaching fairness. Then you could have stapled the USair pilots and they would still have had what they brought to the table as far as their career expections. They would have had a chance of rapid upgrades due to retirement, and still would have born the full risk of furloughs, WHICH is exactly what they brought to the table.

And America West (which wasn't as rosey as you paint it) would have had relatively fewer retirements and less risk of furlough. Bland safe and stable. Exactly what America West had before.

Instead the westies let a few geezers past them on the list, but they will be retired very soon, so it doesn't really effect them, INSTEAD, they got to benefit from an enourmous wave of retirements that was never theirs to start with. They were granted with the stroke of a pen, the equivielent of 15 years of service.

The westies absolutely won the lottery. Watch em all go east be captains soon. They had no experience with mergers and got very lucky from a very poor arbitrator. The Easties and done integrations before, (piedmont-allegeny, allegeny-mohawk, Usair-trumpshuttle) Binding arbitration in the USA is a travesty, because there is no avenue of appeal when a mistake is made, and I have seen several mistakes lately. ("Sick if needed" arbitration at AA had a result that has no grounding in law, and didn't even look at the sections of the contract provided by either side, but there is no avenue of appeal) If it had gone the other way around the westies would have been squealing.

Cheers
Wino

(Disclaimer, I have NEVER been a USair or America West pilot in any capacity or for any subsidiary or feeder, IOWs, I am the closest thing to a true neutral party here, I have been an ALPA member twice, a teamster twice and am in the APA. I am a strong supporter of ALPA, but not in this case. They were wrong)

[5030N]

Wino,

You contend that fences determine the "fairness" of a merged list.

We have been operating operating seperately for two years now, with a "virtual fence" in place that isolates west and east operations. Since the merger, every new aircraft on the property has gone east. Every bit of growth has gone east. All of the furloughees have been recalled and hundreds of upgrades have taken place, all on the east. The west has upgraded fewer than fifty people, has taken delivery of no new aircraft, and has shrunk in every measurable metric. The result has been complete stagnation of the west.

These are not the result of the east's much vaunted "attrition", but the systematic shifting of corporate resources to the east in an attempt to capture the higher yields that exist there.

If you are looking for the proverbial lottery ticket, there it is, and the west doesn't hold it.

There was/is no reason to believe that this will not continue.

What you propose as a fence to "protect" the east would, in reality, be a fence that would restrict the west to an ever shrinking domicile and reserve all growth for the east; all in the name of protecting the "attrition" that was of dubious value the day prior to this merger, and denying to the west what were their reasonable pre merger expecations of growth.

As for the "rosiness" of the situation at AWA, what I posted was factual.
At the time of the merge, AWA was solvent, adding airplanes and hiring pilots. US Airways was not. What part of this is spin?

As for the granting of "the equivalent of 15 years service", consider that 15 years of service at the pre merge US Airways bought you a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. Post merger, it bought exactly the same thing, a junior FO position on the bottom of the list. At pre merger AWA 3 years service bought you a junior FO position at the bottom of the list. Post merger, the exact same thing. Who's got more, the guy with $1.50, or the guy with 1 Euro?

If any west pilots "go east" to be captains, they will be west pilots whose seniority level would have allowed them to upgrade at pre merger AWA, and whose pre-merger career expectations included the reasonable expectation of that upgrade.

I disagree with your opinions expressed in your last paragraph, inre arbitration and this particular arbitrator. Just because you don't get everything you ask for doesn't make the process flawed. (Not speaking to the SIN arbitration, only arbitration in general)

Thanks for the civil discourse.

[Wino]

Well, if the growth is in the East, it would appear then that the EAST pilots brought the more valuable network to the party, would it not? Kinda blows a bunch of holes in the whole who "brought what to the party" arguement. No airline is abandoning ANY profitable flying these days. IF your side is shrinking, it would seam to indicate that it is not profitable. However, this is not a pissing match I am looking to have, its more about the relative age of each list.

But tell me, HOW MANY RETIREMENTS happened on each seniority list during that period. That is what you are flat out refusing to credit, and for people who live and die by seniority lists, the age of a seniority list is of tremendous value, and that was completely disregarded. While an Eastie guy may have been on furlough, he still could have been 2 or 3 years from upgrade. Retirements were happening that fast.

What was the time to upgrade for the last person upgraded the day before the merger? Compare that with from Furlough to left seat on the East and that gives you a better idea of the relative fairness...