Legal aspects of withholding tech-logs

[Mags21]

Can anybody possibly advise as to the legal standpoint of maintenance organisations withholding the tech-logs of a privately owned aircraft undergoing a civil dispute with the engineers?
I have subsequently recovered my aircraft from the airfield where she was being held to ransom, after a magneto was removed from the aircraft without any prior notice, permission or public notification after the fact. Maintenance work has been charged to the aircraft which has not been carried out and the engineer now refuses to return the logs. Is this legal?
Also is the removal of the magneto legal, presumably somebody could have been seriously injured had the aircraft flown and a moagneto failure occured.

Any suggestions or advice greatly appreciated.

Mags21

[411A]

In the USA (just for information), smart aeroplane owners absolutely do not surrender their aircraft maintenance logs to a shop, but instead supply photocopies.
The maintenance release, after work is completed, is printed on a separate page, which is then inserted into the respective log by the owner.
Standard procedure with many FBO's/shops.
Further, should a shop have been found to have removed any part from the aeroplane due to a payment dispute, the FBI is promptly called, and the perp faces federal charges, which specify a $250,000 fine and a twenty year prison term, if found guilty.
The normal recourse for a shop/mechanic who feels that they have been shortchanged by the aeroplane owner, then can file a mechanics lien against the airplane, so that it cannot be sold/legal title changed, until the lien is satisfied.
Further, if a mechanic files a false mechanics lien, they can be prosecuted in civil court in the specific state where the action occured.

Take a part off, any part, withhout proper authorization, is go-to-jail time.
This is strictly enforced, big time, due to safety of flight issues.

[IO540]

In the USA (just for information), smart aeroplane owners absolutely do not surrender their aircraft maintenance logs to a shop, but instead supply photocopies.

I don't disagree, and here in the UK (on G-reg) it is too common practice for maintenance documents to be typed up on a loose sheet which can then be (at the owner's discretion) stuck into the airframe or engine logbook, but the practical side of things is that if you get some work done, and there is a dispute over the payment, the firm that did the work is just not going to give you that sheet in the first place.

As regards records of previous work, the firm is not entitled to withold that, but IMHO the owner has only got himself to blame for not having got copies of it earlier.

So, after you get say an Annual done, when you pay for it, get photocopies of the whole work log, or bring a camera and take photos. You are 100.0% entitled to a copy of this stuff.

You will need it when you come to sell the plane, by which time the company that did Job X 5 years previously may have gone bust and all their records vanished....

[2close]

No, he has no right to withold your tech logs. They are your property and must be returned to you.

The matter of payment owed is a civil dispute and he must take the appropriate action to secure any monies owed to him. The first action would be to send you an invoice which you can then dispute. If you cannot settle the matter between yourselves, further action would be needed (and this should not involved either party suffering fractured femurs). A letter from his solicitor would probably follow, demanding payment within a specified time period and stating that failure to pay up would result in formal legal action. Thereafter, it goes down the County Court route and it will be up to the Court to decide who has acted reasonably or otherwise and who owes who what.

Nevertheless, he must return your log books (correctly completed) because until he does he has not completed the work as required and can't begin to ask for any payment.

On the flip side, you can claim in a solicitor's letter that he has not completed the work (no log books returned) as required and demand return of the books within a specified time, after which you will take appropriate legal action to secure your property and seek restitution to have put right any defects with your aircraft and its documentation.

All very ugly and doesn't resolve anything satisfactorily, apart from putting cash in solicitors' pockets.

These questions are so common it makes me wonder why we never seem to learn from the experiences of others (and I am just as guilty!). Ask for a Scope of Works and Quotation (+/- x%) with provisors that no unauthorised work may be undertaken without the prior written consent of the owner. How many times have we heard 'You wouldn't put up with it from your car's service station'.

[Mike Cross]

Lots of answers that purport to be definitive but no-one's mentioned the contract. Most places have standard Terms & Conditions which you accpet when you authorise the work. It would not be at a all unusual for them to contain a clause saying that the goods would not be released until payment in full has been received. It's a lot easier to hang on to the logs pending payment than the aeroplane, which is rather more difficult to hide away securely.

This isn't a comment on rights and wrongs, but it's a common sense precaution for any business. It doesn't make any difference to the legal position, it simply sticks the onus on the owner to instigate action for recovery of his goods rather than the maintenance organisation for recovery of the debt due to it.

[Grob Driver]

Mags,

I'll do my best to answer some of the questions you have raised.

As Mike Cross states, much if it is dependent on the terms and conditions of the contract that you entered into. Presumably you didn't give you aircraft to a maintenance organiation without entering a contract?

If there is an unpaid bill on the aircraft, then the maintenance organiation is well within their rights to withhold the aircraft until it is paid. Put it like this... You decide to go and buy a new car, your car arrives at the garage, but you don't pay for it. Even though it's your car, or at least it's going to be your car, it's not yours until it's paid for.

I dont think that 2close is exactly right in what he says. When a maintenance organisation does work on an aircraft, they have the right to keep the aircraft until the work is paid for. You dont take your car from the garage before the work is paid for, and it's the same with an aircraft. I presume that the magneto was removed because it was one of the items that wasn't paid for? While you may not like it, it sounds to me like you have effectively stolen property. Even if it's as significant or insignificant as the oil in the tank, or time spent on the aircraft... If it's not paid for, then it's theft, and the maintenance organisation would be will within their rights to report it to the police.

As for talking about a magneto failure... Under what circumstances are you talking about? You presumable fitted another magneto before you took your aircraft? I assume that the new magneto was fitted by an engineer? So therefore they must take responsibility for that part? If you just turned up and fitted the part yourself, and then flew the aircraft, then more the fool you. As the pilot, you have duty of care and it sounds like you failed in that duty.

What is more scary is that the aircraft went into somewhere for maintenance... According to you, that work wasn't done, but you still flew the aircraft out. You say that the magneto was removed to disable the aircraft. How can you be sure that other parts weren't removed before you flew.

There is way to settle disputes like this. It involves the legal system, and taking an aircraft that has been in for maintenance and clearly has parts removed is irresponsible and down right dangerous.

To answer your question, YES, there are will within their rights to withhold the logs until the bill is settled.

[IO540]

The thing is, I'm pretty certain that the replacement of a magneto is a 'loggable' entry into the aircrafts log book, and as you didn't have access to the log books, that is also (possibly) illegal.

Not so. There is no legal requirement to make an entry into the engine logbook. A loose sheet is sufficient. Whether the owner later chooses to glue that sheet into the engine logbook is up to him, but it isn't necessary.

[Winco]

So what I said about it being 'logable' was in fact correct then was it IO540??

Somewhere, there has to be a piece of paper signed/stamped by the engineer to say that the magneto has been replaced, and all the details of the replacement magneto is logged? ie form1 or whatever? And it should then be inserted/glued into the log book, which he doesn't have?









The Winco

[Fuji Abound]

Mike is correct.

The old fashion term was the excercise of a lien, still common in the States, but usually more precisely defined in the contract in the UK.

Never the less in common law the right to excercise a lien over someones goods on which work has been performed, but not paid, is a mechanism for the mechanic to secure his fee.

Whether the log books form part of the whole, or not, is debatable but if the engineer did not have the log books perhaps he would have excercised his lien over the aircraft instead.

It is an unpleasant course for the engineer to have follow, but equally if he feels he is not going to get paid he might feel it is justified.

You may wish to take account of both sides of the argument. I have seen circumstances were a dispute arises but the amount in dispute is no where close to the entire bill. Never the less the customer believes these are grounds for paying nothing. If this is the case it would be far better to volunteer to pay the undisputed part of debt. If the engineer is still not satisfied you might agree to pay the undisputed part and get a solicitor to hold the amount in dispute with an agreement that if you cant resolve your differences and the case goes to Court the sum will be released in accord with the findings of the Court. It would be very unreasonable of the engineer to with hold the log books in these circumstances and more than likely that he may be liable for the loss of use of your property if he did.

Cases like these, if they have to go to Court, can often be settled very quickly and cheaply before the small claims department which minimises the costs for both parties.

[IO540]

Somewhere, there has to be a piece of paper signed/stamped by the engineer to say that the magneto has been replaced, and all the details of the replacement magneto is logged? ie form1 or whatever? And it should then be inserted/glued into the log book, which he doesn't have?

No, the insert does not ever have to be glued into the engine logbook.

It is entirely legitimate for maintenance records to be a collection of loose sheets. You don't have to keep a bound "logbook".

Or they can be writtne on the back of a pig (the most common scenario :) )

[A and C]

On the bottom of all log book certificates you should find a statment that the certificate should be attached to the aproprate log book page.

LAMS and now LAMP require that you use some form of record keeping as IO540 states they can be a pile of paper records but in the long run using the "industry standard" logbooks will save you time and trouble.

I find the whole practice very messy and logbooks with years of these certificates are very hard to read, some may go missing and handwriten entrys are even worse (my handwriting included). For me the answer is the large sticky lable, entrys cant go missing and every one can read my typing not to mention the spellcheck!

As to the origanal subject of the text if MAGS21 would like to PM me I will try to advise him on a way forward that will result in an outcome that both himself and the engineer can live with.

[411A]

Case in point, from the shops perspective, in the USA.
The aeroplane, a Beech Duke, BE60.
The owner requests an oil change.
This is accomplished.
Then, the owner mentions that...the left engine is running slightly rough, and asks the shop to investige.
Compression checks are carried out, and one cylinder needs to be replaced.
This is accomplished, to the aeroplane owners complete satisfaction.
The shops bill is paid by credit card.
So far, so good, and the aeroplane departs, to Canada.

Then, once the aeroplane is in Canada, the owner disputes the credit card payment, and the credit card company promptly deducts the payment from the shops account...including the oil/filter change.
Fraud of the highest order, from the owner of the aeroplane.
Result?
It takes two years to collect payment from the aeroplane owner, with much legal expense for the shop.

I say, pay for the work, and if you are not satified, discuss the issue with the shop, prior to departing.
Fair?
You bet.
For both parties.

[IO540]

Then, once the aeroplane is in Canada, the owner disputes the credit card payment, and the credit card company promptly deducts the payment from the shops account...including the oil/filter change.
Fraud of the highest order, from the owner of the aeroplane.

Anybody can do that, like it or not. Credit card payments are not 'cleared funds'.

[Winco]

Post Deleted


Mags21 asked for advice on a specific point.

He did not give names or any other information identifying any of the people involved in the dispute.Outing users or posting information intended to identify the IDs behind usernames is not permitted and may lead to a ban.
PPRuNe Admin

[Grob Driver]

Post Deleted


Mags21 asked for advice on a specific point.

He did not give names or any other information identifying any of the people involved in the dispute.

Outing users or posting information intended to identify the IDs behind usernames is not permitted and may lead to a ban.


PPRuNe Admin

[Grob Driver]

Mags,

If you have received work on your aircraft, the until payment is made, then the maintenance organisation is entitled to keep your aircraft. If you have taken the aircraft without paying, then you are on dodgy ground. You need to be talking to solicitors, not fellow prooners! But to sum up, the maintenance guys are well within their rights to hold on to your log books until payment is made.