Matz Crossings

[Mad Girl]

Go easy on me guys (& girls)..... I "should" know the answer but don't.

I'm a student who normally flies at the weekend when MATZ are shut so I have very little experience of asking for a crossing...

When I ask to get across a stub... Am I asking for a "MATZ penetration" or a "Zone transit"?? Also.. If I want a FIS - do you want that request at the same time as asking to get across... I'll be approx 5 miles away when calling...

Also.... As my home airfield is within a MATZ and circuit departure rules say I have to get to the VRP at circuit height before I climb.... Can I say that I'm at 1100 ft but climbing to 2300ft on QNH XXXX or do I need to stay down??

Also.... Just to make sure I practice this.... I intend to do a NAVEX which will take me through a MATZ ( a different one) rather than just the stub - Is that the same call as the one in my first question??

Hope you can clarify, as I'm flying tomorrow wx permitting.

Thanks
MG

[Tamar217]

Although I am only a student Pilot, I think this answer is good enough!

I'm going to use my home Matz and aircraft for an example

Me: 'Benson Zone GWACG request matz transit and flight information service'

ATC: 'GWACG Pass your message'

Me: GWACG is a Cessna 152 from Wycombe to Gloucester via oxford overhead. 1 mile south of Stokenchurch at 2000ft on QNH 1021, request MATZ transit and flight information service'

ATC: GCG squawk 3061 Matz transit approved 2000ft on Benson QFE 1011, flight information service

Me: Squawk 3061 MATZ transit approved at 2000ft on 1011, flight information service GCG


Later

Me: GCG is clear of the MATZ switching to Oxford Tower on 125.325

ATC: GCG squawk 7000 good bye

As I said this is only an example for crossing a MATZ, you can find a template for this inside your PPL RT book (which i assmue you have)

As for your airfield being located inside a MATZ i imagine you have a process unique to your airfield, probably to do with booking in with the RAF before you leave. But i recommend asking an instructor there before you leave.

Hope this has been of some help

[Mad Girl]

Thanks for that :ok:..

I passed all my exams last year (including RT :O) and am ready for test, but as I've probably only come up against an active MATZ twice in my 2 1/2 years of flying... I wanted to be sure that I was going to do it right when flying during the week (MATZ open) rather than my usual weekends (MATZ shut)..

Slightly reassured that I'm not going to cause myself any problems now...

[Chilli Monster]

Me: 'Benson Zone GWACG request matz transit and flight information service'

ATC: 'GWACG Pass your message'

Me: GWACG is a Cessna 152 from Wycombe to Gloucester via oxford overhead. 1 mile south of Stokenchurch at 2000ft on QNH 1021, request MATZ transit and flight information service'

Tamar - why are you asking twice? It's not necessary - if you've done it once, don't do it again. Sounds pedantic, but will make you sound slightly more proficient rather than making out you're reading from a crib sheet.

[anotherthing]

CM - a bit harsh I think, at least he's asking instead of blundering through like some pilots!! He's a PPL for goodness sake, it's a hobby, not a profession.

That's coming from me, more than :ok:a bit of a pedant when it comes to R/T myself

[NeoDude]

Me: 'Benson Zone GWACG request matz transit and flight information service'

ATC: 'GWACG Pass your message'

Me: GWACG is a Cessna 152 from Wycombe to Gloucester via oxford overhead. 1 mile south of Stokenchurch at 2000ft on QNH 1021, request MATZ transit and flight information service'

ATC: GCG squawk 3061 Matz transit approved 2000ft on Benson QFE 1011, flight information service

Me: Squawk 3061 MATZ transit approved at 2000ft on 1011, flight information service GCG

Just to save you some RT time. You shouldn't really put a request in with an initial call. Try the following...

Me: 'Benson Zone GWACG'

ATC: 'GWACG Pass your message'

Me: 'GWACG is a Cessna 152 from Wycombe to Gloucester via oxford overhead. 1 mile south of Stokenchurch at 2000ft on QNH 1021, request MATZ transit and flight information service'

Although I stand to be corrected. I'm only just getting to grips with the lovely Seaton :ok:

:)

[FinDir]

On my radio license course, it was drummed into us endlessly that if a MATZ penetration is to be requested, it must be on the first call to the unit. Repeating the request at the end of the next call with your full details does actually make it seem to flow nicer, especially with the request for flight information at the end.

[Bertie Thruster]

Hope this helps;:)

Initial Call - VFR Flight
Normally, the initial call to an ATS unit should only include the minimum information
needed to establish:
a) the service that an enroute flight requires, or
b) the clearance/information that a joining or departing flight requires.


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF

[Jumbo Driver]

When I ask to get across a stub... Am I asking for a "MATZ penetration" or a "Zone transit"?? Also.. If I want a FIS - do you want that request at the same time as asking to get across... I'll be approx 5 miles away when calling...


Hi MG,

If you are seeking to cross any part of a MATZ, be it the main part or the "stub", you ask for a "MATZ Penetration". If you are seeking to cross Class D airspace (e.g. Lyneham, Brize Norton, Southampton or Bournemouth) you would request a "VFR Zone Transit".

AIC 9/2001 (Yellow 39) (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/EG_Circ_2001_Y_009_en.PDF) (you will need to log in) is entitled Military Aerodrome Traffic Zones and contains all you wanted to know about MATZs (but were afraid to ask), including the ATC exchanges required.

Para 2.2 deals with the service you will get - it will be a RAS (IFR) or a RIS (VFR) and should be provided automatically, without you having to ask for it. If you are any doubt, simply add "request Radar Information Service" to your second, detailed call.

Hope this helps ...


JD
:)


PS Even more information is provided here (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/EG_ENR_2_2_3_en.PDF) in ENR 2.2 of the AIP.

[niknak]

Anotherthing,

Don't be too harsh on Chilli, due to the bizzare winter/spring weather, he's come out of hibernation for the fifth time this year today and is grumpy because someone nicked his stash of sweeties, ale and tabs.:p

[Chilli Monster]

Although I stand to be corrected. I'm only just getting to grips with the lovely Seaton

Consider yourself corrected - service requested / crossing request in initial contact (CAP 413)

Anotherthing - not harsh, just a genuine comment. You only need to ask once

Niknak - it gets worse when the sweetie shop is shut airside (but the Polish beauties of Cafe Ritazza make up for it :) )

[Grabbers]

JD,
Is it wise to advise a PPL to ask for RAS or RIS not knowing of his qualification to fly either?

MG,
For my tuppence worth It sounds much more professional and can be more effective if the GA enthusiast:

a) Listens for a sec on the freq before transmitting.
b) Speaks at a reasonable pace, not too fast or slow, including all relevant info.
c) Thinks before Tx. Reduces the err's umm's etc.
d) Is patient. A busy MATZ/visual cct/CTR or CTZ can require some negotiation to get you through safely.
e) Sends a beer or two at Christmas if you do this sort of thing regularly.

Good luck

[Jumbo Driver]

JD,
Is it wise to advise a PPL to ask for RAS or RIS not knowing of his qualification to fly either?


Why not? What special qualifications are required to accept a RIS?

It beats me why so many people ask for the standard FIS when RIS (subject to radar cover) is a superior service and often available just for the asking ...


JD
:)

[FinDir]

It beats me why so many people ask for the standard FIS when RIS (subject to radar cover) is a superior service and often available just for the asking ...


Every time I have flown and requested FIS from an approach/radar unit, I have been given RIS anyway. I think it is just as easy for the controller to provide that.

[anotherthing]

When I flew for the military we were taught PHAIR - so you give initial call i.e.

"Fightertown Radar ABC123 (request MATZ penetration)"

"ABC123 Fightertown Radar pass your message"

"ABC123 a C150 overhead Glastonbury, heading 170, Altitude 2500' on 1012, routing Yeovil, Dorchester, Chard, requesting (MATZ penetration and a) FIS"

It flows well, and you can put the bit about the MATZ penetration either at the beginning, the end or if you really feel you must, at both sides...

It makes no difference to the controller when you mention it - as long as you give enough notice. MATZ penetrations, like entry into CAS are more readily obtained if not requested last minute.

You can fully expect to be told a specific route to cross the MATZ i.e. "MATZ penetration approved routeing north to south, 3 miles west of Fightertown at 2500'"

[Mad Girl]

Thanks one & all :ok:..........especially for all the references.....;)... I didn't get to fly yesterday due to wx - so unfortunately couldn't "have a go!" - Story of my life this year...

Think back to when (if) any of you were doing your PPL test.... Now just suppose you'd had LOTS of :ugh: cancellations, for months........... and in desperation had decided to try to do it mid week rather than your usual weekend (MATZ Shut).

Wouldn't YOU want to check, and DOUBLE check, everything you knew you were going to encounter - especially if you'd not actually done it "live" in your training.......... and the first time was going to be within minutes of departing your home airfield whilst on test....????

Hopefully any MATZ controllers won't know it's me 'cos I "may" actually sound like I know what I'm doing now :D ;).

Thanks again

MG

[Talkdownman]

"Although civil recognition of a MATZ is not mandatory, pilots are to comply with the provisions of the current Rules of the Air Regulations in respect of the ATZ."

Ref:

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/EG_ENR_2_2_3_en.PDF

[chevvron]

Bear in mind that the MATZ only exists when the station it surrounds is open for 'operational' flying ie at weekends when there's only gliding or light aircaft flying, the ATZ exists but NOT the MATZ. Having said that, bear in mind that if there's a UAS based there, they might be doing practice 'CDTC' aka QGH letdowns (which are done without radar cover) which often start above the transition altitude, so it's best not to fly directly overhead just above the ATZ.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

chevvron. Do you remember being buggered around in the former Honington Military Air Traffic Control Zone? Being vectored well off intended track for Mildenhall traffic that was so far away that you couldn’t even see it. I’m not sure it happened to you but I certainly had to remind them that I was talking to them out of courtesy and consideration for safety; not because I had to.

[chevvron]

I remember it happening shortly before 2 pairs of F100s passed down my right side opposite direction, one pair above and one pair below; but that wasn't the traffic they were vectoring me clear of!

[ShyTorque]

All this arguing about what to say! Sounds like hard work to me.

Next time I get to fly solo, if one ever gets in my way I'll just switch mode c off and go through. Mind you, my chart is so far out of date most of them have probably closed by now.

[Grabbers]

Whilst there are no special qual's required to receive a RIS, the criteria for calling 'conflicting' traffic is vastly different between RIS and FIS. An a/c is in receipt of a RIS and is advised of traffic as it is going through a patchy area of Wx/Cloud, the then more worried than normal GA dude/dudess, then shakily asks for an update. Dutiful ATC then offer a RAS to try and provide that warm and fuzzy feeling. Unsure GA dude/dudess accepts thinking this is a good idea. Vectors then take him into IMC/IFR. Very unfuzzy feeling all round, no?

[CAP493]

Next time I get to fly solo, if one ever gets in my way I'll just switch mode c off and go through. Mind you, my chart is so far out of date...
ShyTorque, I like your sense of humour.

(You were joking weren't you...??) :hmm: :rolleyes:

[Talkdownman]

If you don't call you won't have to worry about what to say.
Let's face it, a MATZ is not worth the paper it is depicted on, they don't completely protect the procedural IAPs, especially the cumbersome 'pan-handles'. A 'Government aerodrome' ATZ cannot contain a fast-jet circuit. If military operations are that desperate for protection why not give them a simple 5nm radius Class G Rule 45 ATZ and be done with it. The current MATZ dimensions and recognition are a joke as far as civil users are concerned.
I'm staggered that such a military-only requirement ever found its way into a civil AIP. The over-'control' by military ATSUs, especially outside their so-called MATZs/CMATZs/pseudo Class D, is becoming an infringement upon civil liberties. The sooner they learn to correctly provide the different air traffic services to civil aircraft the better. The 'my plane is bigger/faster than yours, get out of the way' mentality is outrageous. On FIS just pass VFR flights the flippin' traffic information. It's not difficult. What on earth are they teaching at Shawbury these days?

[Jumbo Driver]

I like your style, Talkdownman ... :ok:

Tin hats on, everybody !!



JD
:)

[ShyTorque]

(You were joking weren't you...??)

Having spent 18 years getting paid for flying them from the middle outwards, then another 14 years getting paid for flying from the outside inwards, and there is a little fish at the top of my post with those comments, what do you think is most likely? ;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

The over-'control' by military ATSUs, especially outside their so-called MATZs/CMATZs/pseudo Class D, is becoming an infringement upon civil liberties.

Many civil ATCOs are also suffering from the same malaise.

[Talkdownman]

It amounts to incompetence. It's high time the civil and mil 'Trappers' put a stop to it.

[cdb]

No need to bother switching off the mode C - you're perfectly entitled to fly in a MATZ without talking to anyone.

If you do that keep your mode C on, that way the RAS traffic will be vectored around you.

[Diddley Dee]

TDM

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you are saying (I have always been a firm opponent of over controlling - it was how I was trained) I could take exception at your comments.... are all Mil ATCOs painted with your same over control broad brush? I hope not!

Could bite further but not going to;)
DD

[ShyTorque]

No need to bother switching off the mode C - you're perfectly entitled to fly in a MATZ without talking to anyone.

If you do that keep your mode C on, that way the RAS traffic will be vectored around you.

Yes, but if you leave it OFF you tend to get far better vertical separation. :)

[Dunregulatin]

"the trappers should put a stop to it"

:ugh:

The smiley says it all! Oh god, how we tried.

[Warmen Sie Luft]

I just wish PPL's would remember that Lyneham and Brize are class D.

How often do you hear them calling Brize and Lyneham asking for a MATZ crossing! Maybe the controllers should ask them which MATZ they would like to cross?

Surely the PPL syllabus you covers airspace classification?

[Tripple8810]

Hey


I will fly in a few weeks from Switzerland to UK VFR.
Now I have a quetsion about MATZ...

Is it possible to overfly a MATZ Zone without contact them?

Thank for help

Regards

Philip

[Talkdownman]

If you are asking if it is permissible to transit a MATZ without contact then, yes, you may, provided that you are a civil aircraft and that the (Rule 45) ATZ is avoided. See:

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/enr/EG_ENR_2_2_en.pdf

Civil recognition of a MATZ is not mandatory, pilots are to comply with the provisions of the current Rules of the Air Regulations in respect of the ATZ. The notified hours of operation of an ATZ may vary from the notified hours of watch of a MATZ.

It is permissible to overfly a MATZ VFR without contact provided that one is in Class E, F or G airspace.

It is permissible to overfly a MATZ IFR without contact provided that one is in Class F or G airspace.