5 tonnes , 500 metres , 5000 ft on a budget ?

[aseanaero]

The mission : deliver 20 tonnes per day in 5 tonne payloads into a 500 metre level runway at an elevation of 5,000 ft , 45 mins from the sea level base airfield

The aircraft would be landing fully loaded and coming out empty or with a partial load no greater than 1 or 2 tonnes

Aircraft budget : $1 to $1.5 million

Candidates that spring to mind : DHC-4 Carribou , DHC-5D Buffalo , AN-72

The Carribou is out as it burns avgas which is difficult to get and expensive at this location ($4 to $6 per litre ! )

Buffalo ? probably out of this budget range , maybe lucky if an ex-military one can be found cheap

AN-72 , maybe some certification issues with the local aviation authority

Is this mission impossible or is there a budget STOL transport I haven't thought about ?

[toolowtoofast]

keep the AN registered in a friendly country with like-licensed pilots?

shorts 330/360? (not sure of $$ value there though)

[aseanaero]

"keep the AN registered in a friendly country with like-licensed pilots?"

That's a possibility

"shorts 330/360? (not sure of $$ value there though) "

It won't carry a 5 tonne payload and probably wont get off a short runway at that altitude even if empty

[toolowtoofast]

i don't know anything about the shorts, but i thought you said you were carrying loads into the short/high strip, and light out?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sheds only take 3.5 tonnes and will struggle with 500m at that altitude.

[aseanaero]

Correct , it wont be lifting heavy loads out (I reworded my previous response now to make it more clear)

I think the Shorts will only carry 2.5 to 3.5 tonnes and the company who will be paying the bills wants the ability to bring in 5 tonnes in 1 aircraft

Also their budget won't run to heavy lift helis , so thats out

[dusk2dawn]

http://www.penturbo.com/ (but go find some more pennies)

[Nearly There]

The HS748 will carry the weight and good short field performance, not sure on the figures for that altitude tho. But could probably find out tomorrow for you if its an option?

[aseanaero]

Thanks NT

I hadn't considered a HS-748 and there's a few around here in Indo though none are flying but there's one here that just had a major overhaul and has sat for 18mths after the owner went out of business

There is also a bunch of them for sale out of the UK

Ramp aircraft would be better but beggers can't be choosers and the HS has a reasonable sized cargo door

Would it be able to get into a 500m strip loaded and get out lightly loaded at that altitude ? Interesting

[Nearly There]

Will see if I can find out some perf figures for you, it might be worth asking on the Emerald thread, plenty of years experience and knowledge with 748s there!! and no doubt the UK aircraft for sale have come from that source..:ok:

[TWOTBAGS]

Andover is another possibility, and with a really helpful loading door but I am skeptical that the 748/Andover will cope with high temps and altitude even with 500mts

Most obvious aircraft that will do the job hands down to me is Dash7, no probs in, no probs out, 45 min each way with reserves will give you easily 5T. Hardest part will be finding one with the big front door.

Dash7 if you had my money.

Or thinking laterally how about a Mi-26 once a day?, 20T possible from S/L. No strip limits even at these altitude.

[aseanaero]

Mi-26 ... thanks for the suggestion , will look into it

I haven't seen the strip and I asked whether its economic to lengthen it , another few hundred metres makes a huge difference on what can get in

Been laying in bed sleepless (got up to have some sleeping medicine ... a beer) thinking of weird ideas like drogue parachutes deployed on touchdown out the back of the aircraft ramp :ugh:

[mrgoaround]

What about the Convair CV580? Think that one can do it (especially with the allisons)

[CargoOne]

AN72s are not operating to/from 500m rwy, even you discount elevation & temperature...

[aseanaero]

Try the numbers for an AN-72 landing with a 5 tonne payload taking off almost empty (not with a 10 tonne payload)

[CargoOne]

aseanaero

I know one AN72 operator first hand and I've seen AN72 Aircraft Flight Manual some time ago. 500m is nonsence, doesn't matter what payload. Even the performance calculation charts are not extending to 500m in the manual, and not even 800m. I hope you are not mixing take-off/landing roll distance with required runway lenght?

[aseanaero]

Hi Cargo-one

I've been digging around on the internet today and you are correct , I was waiting to get flamed on this :rolleyes:

I was told by a AN-72 seller in Russia a few days ago that an AN-72 would do it but I hadn't seen any perf charts yet

... all in all its a tough ask , difficult mission on a limited budget

There are some military Buffalos laying around here but the acquisition process is long and complicated however it may be the only way to get this job done with low initial capital cost

[CargoOne]

If you ask me there are 2 ways how to make this project safely:
1. Use of heavy helicopter.
2. Extend the runway at least twice or more, this will make it suitable for AN32 and some other aircraft.

Neither of them are cheap. But flying 4-6-8 times a day to 500m at 5000ft at the edge of any aircraft performance means that it is no longer a question IF accident will happen. It is a question WHEN. And I bet it will happen pretty soon. Try to count crashed freighters around Jayapura and Wamena, which are far less demanding than your place.

[forget]

There are some military Buffalos laying around here

Here = Indonesia. Therefore; $$$$$$ + Big Brown Envelope = Job done. :p

[Old Fella]

I think your question just about comes up with one answer only, "Mission Impossible". Must assume you are talking about lifting 5000 Kg at a time into a 500 metre dirt airstrip at 5000' AMSL. Give the almost constant high temperatures in the area you allude to you are going to have a very high Density Altitude. Flew many times into PNG airfields at 5000' AMSL and higher in C130's. It can get exciting, even with 4000' of crushed coral runway at those sort of field elevations. BTW, a Caribou has a useful payload of around 4000 kgs and would be one of the few types I would even give a second glance.

Give the dream to someone else and enjoy less stressful living.

[aseanaero]

"Here = Indonesia. Therefore; $$$$$$ + Big Brown Envelope = Job done. :p "

Very true in the 'old days'

The number of and thickness of the envelopes are getting ridiculous (or so I've heard) and people are getting arrested now especially when dealing with the military (some folks who didn't get envelopes can get a bit grumpy) so it's better to follow the process now but it can take 1 or 2 years

The Indonesians say 'ada gula ada samut' which means 'where there is sugar there is ants' but now the whole ant's nest turns up and eats you as well as the sugar

[newcomer]

How about using a Chinook?

[aseanaero]

Thanks Cargo and Old Fella

You're right , throw in some crap weather , narly crosswinds , aircraft problem or just having an off day and something's going to happen

There's enough wreckage around that part of the World to prove that even when the odds are on your side and you have a safety margin (not on the limit like this) something will come up and bite you

Trying to help an Indonesian buddy out with this 'equation' , their current aircraft won't do it and they've asked me if I can find something that can and its too hard , they need to lengthen the runway or use helis

Old Fella , out of interest how much runway does a fully loaded C130 need to take off ?

I watched an RAAF C130 take off from Surabaya late 2006 or early 2007 (it was accompanying a bunch of RAAF F-18s transiting from Singapore I think) , the Herc looked heavy and was using a fair bit of power just taxing , from memory it used probably 2/3rds of the 3,000m runway to get airborne

I did some time in a PC6 turbo porter with the little engine (PT6A-20 not the -27) and that thing was fun , with 2 people on board , cold day and 15 knots on the nose it would leap into the air with the shortest ground run I've ever experienced , it was crazy what you could do with that aircraft when it was cold and it was torque limited rather than temp limited on take off , it didn't like hot weather (40 plus deg C) with a full load though

[aseanaero]

Chinook = KeChing$$k

[dieselsix]

Too bad you don't have avgas, a C-46 could be perfect for the job.
The only other plane I can think of is a Bassler turbo DC-3, but 5 tonnes may be a bit much.

[international hog driver]

Dash 7,

I agree with one previous poster, Dash7 will do it without problems, built like tanks, serious stol capability, low initial cost, and they are already on the PK register with Pelita

[PK-KAR]

Dash7 in PK-Reg, there's Pelita, and someone else, I can't remember who. There's one operating Papua as well.

Add:
Here = Indonesia. Therefore; $$$$$$ + Big Brown Envelope = Job done.
With:
thinking of weird ideas like drogue parachutes deployed on touchdown out the back of the aircraft ramp
Try and "borrow" the Air Force's C130 *grin* I'm sure they like to practice LAPES if they can! LOL... someone has done it (without the LAPES)... regularly.

OK, I've heard these requirements before. Freight to Papua is lucrative, but damn right ridiculous in a lot of cases.

But, if the budget is 1 - 1.5 million, you can get a 5 million aircraft on a lease if you're crazy enough to bully a few banks... and it can pay itself back nicely.

Tell them to give it 1500m and then come back to you... If the 500m don't kill ya, the 5000ft elevation probably will, and is it a one way only airport with a vertical wall on the other side? (there's just too many of them around here).

I think your question just about comes up with one answer only, "Mission Impossible". Must assume you are talking about lifting 5000 Kg at a time into a 500 metre dirt airstrip at 5000' AMSL. Give the almost constant high temperatures in the area you allude to you are going to have a very high Density Altitude. Flew many times into PNG airfields at 5000' AMSL and higher in C130's. It can get exciting, even with 4000' of crushed coral runway at those sort of field elevations. BTW, a Caribou has a useful payload of around 4000 kgs and would be one of the few types I would even give a second glance.
5 tons in 1 go must be because the guy putting up the requirement doesn't want to get held up in weather. In Papua, it's guns ablaze until midday, then put the plane in the shed and go to the bar... coz the clouds have moved in.

PK-KAR

[Coleman Myers]

Have you ever considered the DHC5-A ?. There is a guy here with them and they are fairly robust and capable plus the crew are excellent. Let me know.CM

[elobeid]

MI26 good option to look at. Have used them if Northern Pakistan at altitude. 2x10 ton rotations day. Have return load ready and netted and forget about the landing. EMERCOM is a good operator.

[elobeid]

On second thoughts consider Kamov 32. I have also used these at altitude in Pakistan. 5000kg longline underslung. 800km range. Much cheaper then MI26.

[jb2_86_uk]

S64 Skycrane?


Payload: 9000kg
Ceiling: 9000ft
Landing/Takoff Distance required: 0ft :ok:

Edit: Originally put S65! whoops

[elobeid]

Skycrane cost would kill it. Mil or Kamov much cheaper

[islandflyer]

500 meters at 5.000 feet ... without a slope that is even a bit short for a Caravan. Pelita uses their DHC7 into Oksibil (4.000 feet, 900 meters) and I see them use around 700 meters every landing. Trigana tried their Caribou on a marginal strip and it is still there to tell the tale.
I am also wondering which of the runways that would be. Most I know are longer now. Why the 5 ton requirement? Are single pieces so heavy or is it just the "bigger is better" thought?
If you want some ideas, PM me with the location and I may be able to help.

[Phileas Fogg]

What's the cubic capacity of the 5 tons? If it's, for instance, 5 tons of ping-pong balls then it'll take something like a B747 to shift it!

[Leecj1]

My first post - yippeeee!!!
Howz about 2 smaller planes doing half the weight each? :ok:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I think the South Africans are still trying to sell their C-160 Transalls.
Could do the weight no probs not too sure about the 500m runway.
Certification might take a wee while, depending on the budget :eek:
I think they are kept in warm storage.
Balair/Red Cross used one into some shortish strips in Biafra a few years back.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
David

[discus177]

I'm positive there was an operator in Indo operating the C-160 in the early / mid 2000s, not sure if the old girl is still operational or not, C-160 imo is capable, though 500m is a wee bit to short!

[Octane]

What an interesting thread! For some reason it made me read up on DC 3's and I found this:

http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc3throt/jato.jpg

Just what the doctor ordered!

Cheers

Octane

[Life's a Beech]

Thinking like my boss, my first thought was of Monty Python: Two Sheds.

Then I considered that this is even a bit short for a Shorts, as it were, even though your budget would cover the S360 twice over. However my boss's thinking, 'why use one large aircraft when two smaller will do the job more cheaply?', still stands. So I'm with Leecj1. I suspect this is a really tough call for one aircraft, but if you consider 2 with half the payload you might make it.

Having said that I wouldn't even operate into 500m at sea level and my payload is 1000 kg, so I'll leave that with a "good luck"!

[5 Greens]

What you need is a Bristol Freighter! 5500KG payload designed to fly into short jungle strips. There is one left that could be made airworthy, its in Canada.

[Porrohman]

Have you considered a C-123?

[Mabmax]

agree with elobeid... Ka-32 is probably the best choice... and should there be a chance to break up the cargo into smaller 2 tonne underslung loads, consider the Kaman K-Max

[EHRD-0624]

Forget that payload with such a short runway. Used AN-72 in PNG but runways were considerably longer. You may want to consider the AN-28 instead. A though little machine with incredible STOL performance. It carries just under 2 tons of payload but would happily accept a short (dirt) runway and it has clamshell doors at the back making it very easy to load/unload. I've used it many times (albeit not at that elevation) and was always impressed. To get 20 tons per day to destination might be too much for one aircraft but I'm certain there are ex-USSR AN-28's available at a good price. Just my 2 cents......

[Deltabravowhiskey]

Airdrop, C-130 (L-100).

One single drop or if you insist two loads is a piece of cake. The 500 meter strip is perfect for lineup and drop.

YouTube - Southern Sudan WFP Air Drop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjL0sL8tShU)

DBW

[Porrohman]

How about this;
YouTube - Credible Sport Test YMC 130 H (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFjhWw4DNo&feature=related)
YouTube - Super STOL C-130 Mishap (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=8YOtm9UCQEc)
Operation Credible Sport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Credible_Sport)
There might still be some bugs to iron out though and it might exceed your budget.