Ek Airbus upgrades delays

[flareflyer]

Latest rumors is that because they are very short of FOs in Airbus fleet all the upgrades from June will be delayed........ :ugh:


What a crap ........

Flare

[mensaboy]

The shortage of FO's on the Airbus fleet is indeed fact, which will begin to show on the line in a month or two. The only question is, how will the company deal with it? For example, Nagoyas went with 2 Captains and 1 FO and I suspect that will start again soon.

What else could they do? Well if past policy is any indication, DEC's and more factored flying. Both of which were disasters (policy-wise) but no doubt both will happen again.

The only constant at EK is the lack of forethought and planning. Just imagine if the A380's had actually turned up on schedule?

I have no doubt that pilots will suffer..... the only question is how. They are so clever at deception and manipulation that I'm sure they have other devious if not illegal tactics to throw at us in an attempt to cover up their incompetence.

So the cycle starts all over again just when things started to look better for FO's.

1. Potential upgrade delays for no reason other than lack of planning.
2. A crisis in accomodation. And who is going to get the few available villas? Certainly not the FO's already here or about to join. The villas will be required for the DEC's. DEC's do not have to accept unsuitable accomodations because the company knows they just won't show up if they are displeased.

It just boggles my mind why EK did not allow for a normal career progression for its pilots. It affects everything. Recruitment, salary, lifestyle, accomodation, overall contentment, respect, schedules........ yet the inequities of differing hiring schemes and upgrades makes suitable applicants reconsider employment at EK and some of those already here feel trapped.

Hire FO's, train them to EK standard and then upgrade them when their turn comes. It is frickin simple !! A pilot's life would get better each year, his wage would increase, his accomodation entitlement improves and his job satisfaction increases accordingly.

[flareflyer]

From june delays will be at least 2 months and more...........

this is due to the "dynamic" and constant change of the operational plan...... :ugh:

"the Upgrade Plan has to be modified in the short term, in order to supply sufficient FO's to fulfill the Operating Plan"

I don't understand English very well but if I am not wrong it means that they f@Kd again with the numbers.............

"This situation is resolved in the medium term by adding additional recruitment on the Fleet"

Again............. more recruitment.............. :}

I think that even Le cirque Quidan would pay a lot of money to have these clowns in their show.................. :D

What to say...............

I have no words that can explain what I feel about this management :{

[Ramboflyer 1]

Hang on a minute the last airbus delivery was more than 2 years ago and you are saying they are short of crew on it. It has to be a deliberate ploy to get direct entry Captains and f/os onto the 380 and maybe in bases.

[fatbus]

Dont start the basings thing again, waste of time. If the AB upgrades are delayed it must be for slow intake. Just cant seem to get enough guys through the door.All those guys which were turned off from coming could now be delaying the upgrade process. If they have a big improvement to the T/C's it might help.Smart pilots are not going to come to be a A380 FO for 5 + years on the present T/C's.

My guess on the 777 is poor planning to all of a sudden have to many guys, how did that happen and why was the AB F/O to 777 stopped. The least they can do is tranfer upgrades. The 4 year AB F/O's are more than ready to do the transfer upgrade; IE no 6 months in the right seat.

[MR8]

Okay, I do not know the new operational plan, and I do not know the exact numbers required to operate our fleet Airbusses, but with the means available to all of us, it is quite obvious that this is completely ridiculous...

I did prepare a whole rant about how and what, but after reading it through decided that it was mainly moaning and bitching because those @55h0135 up in management can't do their math right...

Just a few numbers, make your conclusion yourselves... Since beginning of the year up to now, we had 72 new FO's joining on the A330 (18/month), only 40 started their upgrade course since then.

How can it be that the Captain/FO ratio is negatively affected by this so that the upgrades need to be delayed for this reason??

My 2p: Let the Captains work overtime as much as possible, every hour overtime costs a lot less then an hour 'basic pay'. A lot of captains will go through training this year, so the 12 month/900 hr thing won't really affect them in the end...

MR8

[Payscale]

Isnt that logic. If 80 FOs join, 40 old FOs are upgraded. Now you have 40 new captains to fly with 40 FOs net.... If you hire 80 FOs and upgrade 80 FOs you have too many Captains :rolleyes:

[B. Bonga]

40 upgrades already within 4 months and you guys complain ? That works out to 120year :yuk: It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys. Command gets delayed by a couple of months and it off to "mama Pprune" to whinge............!:= I think closure of this thread would be appropriate.........or at least an age restriction of some sort..............

[Immigrant]

B. Bonga
It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys.
-----------------------------
5++++:ok:

[Fart Master]

I think closure of your 1 year old mouth would be appropriate:=

[411A]

It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys. Command gets delayed by a couple of months and it off to "mama Pprune" to whinge............! I think closure of this thread would be appropriate...

Hmmm, it appears that the logical solution for EK is to recruit even more direct entry Captains, and if they (EK) don't receive an adequate intake, due to the salary/conditions, then up the ante, which will, in the end, benefit all.

There, problem solved.

Will this happen?
Quite likely not, so the 'more junior guys' can begin to sharpen up their fingers, bit*hing and moaning, here on PPRuNe.
Standard fare.:bored::bored:

[White Knight]

Hmmmmmm, it appears 411a that even though threads of this sort have been running for the last 4 years or so YOU STILL ARE NOT KNOWING!!!!
The 'junior guys' you refer to are not fresh out of flying school, cadets or 2nd officers, but experienced and seasoned pilots. All they want - for the info of fools like bonga and immigrant is a FAIR GO.....

Do you blame them for a bit of gnashing and wailing when the plan seems to change daily????

[Fart Master]

Well said White Knight, I was too full of wine to be eloquent when I posted, and I suspect none of these 3 idiots works for EK:ok:

[MR8]

Isnt that logic. If 80 FOs join, 40 old FOs are upgraded. Now you have 40 new captains to fly with 40 FOs net.... If you hire 80 FOs and upgrade 80 FOs you have too many Captains


I see your reasoning Payscale, but NO, it isn't. It would be on an expanding fleet where you would need have 40 NEW captains. Here however, we REPLACE the captains going to the A380, so the total number of guys playing in the left seat remains unchanged...

As for the guys claiming that I'm whinging, fair enough, I probably am.. Then again, who wouldn't in our position?? I'm not upset by having to wait more then 3 years, I perfectly understood what recruitment told me, a MINIMUM of three years.. I am very upset though that I have been bypassed by DEC's, and 'accelerated' guys, while this is completely AGAINST the upgrade path explained to me and how it is written in the FOM..
Once they finally give you a date, and request you not to take your annual leave then... they screw it up, postpone the courses a few months and we suddenly end up with NO leave anymore. The family holidays planned for AFTER the upgrade are now actually right in the middle of the whole process...
And yes, I'm moaning again...

MR8

[411A]

The 'junior guys' you refer to are not fresh out of flying school, cadets or 2nd officers, but experienced and seasoned pilots.

Fully understand, White Knight, however...as some of these same guys, who joined as First Officers, were no doubt Captains elsewhere and, as the old axiom goes, never ever ever give up your Captains seat and move to the right....unless (and this is a big if) the company is fully prepared to honor any contractural agreements.
Sadly EK appears not to do so, and this should positively come as no surprise, as those in charge in the sand pit, never ever keep their word.
I believe I mentiond this over five years ago here on these august forums, yet my advice was ignored.
So, now I can truly say....I told you so.

But hey, what do I know...after working in the middle east for over thirty years?

A middle east leopard does not change his spots.
Never has, never will.
To think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

[kingoftheslipstream]

one a the more 'ntelligent (rare in itself) things I ever heard KG say over a coffee some years ago (not long after he joined EK) was that this company (EK) don't plan strategically...

he emphasised thet there's a strength in the inherent flexibility permitted... 'n that's true commercially for EK, cause she's always openin' up places and makin' plans at the last minute but god knows there's way too many chiefs and not enough indians...

lack a strat plannin' is what causes these kinds a little upsets in the career plannin'...

it ain't tha fault of flight ops manglement (lord knows I don't come ta their defense very often!) it's the way other departments do their thing 'n change the ops requirement at the last minute...

Where this overlaps with recruitment and pilot numbers causes this domino effect and ya get this kinda disappointin' news...

In tha grand scheme a things, a 3 month delay ain't no big deal... there's some guys 've had a whole year 'n longer tacked on 'cause the A380 slowed things up a mite. 'N they were told unequivocally thet the upgrade would come at 3 years.

I wouldn't be too 'fraid of too many more DEC's joinin' either - the package jest ain't good 'nough to attract 'em. And it ain't jes the EK thing anymore either - it's tha whole DUBAI thing... the ****ty infrastructure, rampant and extortionate inflation, get rich quick schemers, accomodation issues, the drivin' of course, schools, crowded conditions... it's the general malaise a tha place - it's just a false fronted town hidin' a credibility gap behind the facade 'o frills...

a buddy bought hisself one a those leather flight bags from the EK store at tha old DNATA buildin' @ flame roundabout there, it's a little over a year old an' he showed me how the whole wheel assembly has gone askew. Each wheel mounting is stitched on to the outside leather of the case... there's no underlyin' support frame inside the case. It's jes' like little ol' Dubai herself... nice lookin' on the outside but in terms a substance 'n real stuff to support the flash, she comes up kinda like this flight case... it's bogus goods.

But y'all ken bet that the suppliers, an' the retailer all got their more 'n reasonable profits... it's the end user thet gets screwed.

Hang 'n there ladies 'n gents...it's gonna get worse... Dubai's just the painted lady 'o the Gulf Region.

[mensaboy]

Hey King,

Any chance you can type in English?
It's like reading something a teenage girl texts to her friends.
Not that I disagree with your posts, but I rarely get through them because they are painful to read.

Just a thought.

[Payscale]

MR8 - didnt think of the A380. I suppose that would offset it a bit.

[B. Bonga]

I think closure of your 1 year old mouth would be appropriate:=
..........i guess that means your name is really Fart Master for sure ...:)

You're obviously not top of the food chain obviously since from the 40 or so that have gone for their course you where not part of that group. Tuck your tail in between your legs.............find a nice shade somewhere and follow it as the sun moves:}! Nobody said you will not get command, this "have a go" thoery falls out the window ! You will have a go when your time comes and am sure it will be pretty soon seeing as how animated you have become. Just make sure you're ready when they let you have a go, than spending time on Pprune whining you "I wanna, l wanna........."

I still insist it ain't a right that the 3 year mark signals the arrival of your fourth bar............the few months delay is valuable time to "stuff your brain" with more knowledge for your upgrade interview/assessment.


Don't work for EK, but Fart Master "check your minimas"
I suspect none of these 3 idiots works for EK:ok:.....................:=:=

[flareflyer]

Just to inform all those who are moaning the real reason of the delay is that they are getting more DEC in the Airbus fleet.

So...........what can I say...........B.Bonga I do not know where you are from and I do not know who you work for. The only thing I know is that maybe without knowing what has really happened to the guys that have been delayed and having a minimum of respect for them you should avoid to criticize.........

Anyway you are of course free to do it but then if somebody answers you in a not so diplomatic way maybe you deserve it.

Flare

[mensaboy]

B Bonga..... you state the following (sorry can't get my quote thing to work)

''It's has become almost a norm that some EK FO's feel it's their right to get command at 3 years and if it doesn't happen, they throw a tantrum.........come on guys. Command gets delayed by a couple of months and it off to "mama Pprune" to whinge............! I think closure of this thread would be appropriate.........or at least an age restriction of some sort''


When a big factor in a pilots decision to come to EK, is the rapid Upgrades, then they have every right to bitch when the company DOES NOT FOLLOW its own written rules. In a nutshell......... qualified F/O's, then Accelerated F/O's, then as a last resort DEC's.

I have never seen an F/O throw a tantrum, as you state, nor do I know one F/O that thinks it is their right to command in 3 years. I have never witnessed it nor have I ever even heard about such antics. Either you are purposely misrepresenting things or you are simply ignorant. Before you get YOUR panties in an uproar,
Ignorant:1. uninstructed, untutored, untaught. Ignorant, illiterate, unlettered, uneducated mean lacking in knowledge or in training. Ignorant may mean knowing little or nothing, or it may mean uninformed about a particular subject.

If Upgrade delays are incurred one single day due to DEC's, then that is clearly wrong. Recently delays have been over a year due to the DEC policy. I only hope that the latest delays will be in the 'few month range' but I suspect that things will quickly deteriorate.

No wonder EK cannot get more than 5 expat F/O's opting for the A380. They all suspect they will be stuck there even longer than the idiotic 2 years the company is freezing them in the right seat.

I think the company has proven beyond reasonable doubt, that the DEC program will never be stopped. This is a serious mistake on the company's part. Every prospective F/O, at least the informed ones, should take a good long look at the 'promises versus reality' of EK management. F/O then Accelerated F/O then DEC is a promise which has not been kept for almost 5 years now.

When more pressure comes upon recruiting then more DEC's will be hired, with less and less viable experience. Simple as that !!

Say goodbye to the few available villas, prepare to coach some of these DEC's for their first year online, and take an educated guess at the Upgrade time frame. Not a pretty picture for an F/O in my opinion.

I think every single F/O who suffers any delay whatsoever, has every right to be pissed off and should be whinging on Pprune. It is the only outlet they have, so cut them some slack.

[serious flyer]

Fareflyer, you said:
Just to inform all those who are moaning the real reason of the delay is that they are getting more DEC in the Airbus fleet.
Please can you say if this is an opinion or do you have more info/facts to corroborate the above said?
As I understand it EK is still getting DECs for the B777, not for the Airbus fleet.
The reason obviously would be to upgrade the FOs on the Airbus fleet, where there seems to be older guys than on the B777 fleet. The reasonable way to go is to hire more FOs to the Airbus fleet, including the A380s.
SF

[mensaboy]

SeriousFlyer,

I can verify that DEC's are now appearing in numbers on the Bus fleet. It never actually stopped! They snuck in about 15 while pretending that Airbus DEC's were a thing of the past. I have come to realize it is a cycle here. The company realizes how poorly the DEC policy is perceived by the rest of the world, so they do things incognito.

The DEC policy is INSANE !!!

I have no particular grief with DEC's as human beings or pilots, other than the 10% who are obvious nutcases. (Capt America at the top of that list)

If the DEC policy is something that a potential F/O considers a 'deal breaker', then have no illusions........ it is here to stay. Why doesn't the company publish it accordingly, and stop pretending they will upgrade based on ability and seniority?????

Management does what it believes to be the most cost effective. (although I believe it to be a fallacy) If this was a justified policy, then it would be written in the FOM. It is deceitful and irresponsible for this company to lure people into coming here based on lies.

Publish the policy, give the number of DEC's and the related delays to F/O upgrades, then people can make an informed decision. That would be fair.

~2000 pilots now........... potentially ~4000 in what? 5 years? (I admit I don't know the true number but His Highness has recently stated that due to international circumstances, fuel prices, etc, the 'immediate' outlook is for no future expansion other than what has already been announced) So throw in say, 50 DEC's a year, and how does that affect F/O's about to join? Fooks em' big time !!! 5 years from now, by the way, MOST cadets are eligible for upgrade, too. (deservedly so in my opinion)

Ok, say 50 pilots a year will leave EK too. That might be conservative, but some of them will still be F/O's so that has little affect on upgrades.

My only intent here, is to let people know the reality of the situation. If truth be known I hope all you decent and good guys still want to come to EK . But I would not be able to sleep at night if I was one of these clowns purporting the virtues of EK without giving all the facts.

Please come to EK, I honestly wish we had more applicants, but come with eyes wide open. There are good things here. Nice destinations (although crappy layovers and bad per diems), great aircraft and maintenance, lots to do in DXB (although the city will wear you down over time), the pay is acceptable (only due to no taxes) , and generally a great bunch of pilots with whom to work. Sadly our management are less than desirable, in large part due to NO recourse from the GCAA and general HR policies in this region.

Why have a DEC policy when there is no need for it? You MUST ask that question. There are probably 300 F/O's more than capable of upgrading TOMORROW, so why hire pilots that jump the queue?? This policy says a great deal about how management views pilots.

Thank god we have ED, (who actually views Capt America as a good leader and aircraft Captain), and TCAS who is basically propping up his BA pension (and has no interest in things at all), and AAH (who actually despises pilots), looking after our best interests.

Goodness me, when I get going and start thinking about how they mess with our contractual agreements and dare I say, HEALTH, I start to reassess. Haha. Thank goodness for the beach !

[emratty]

Mensa not sure where you are getting your info on Airbus DEC's check the seniority list there have been none for a couple of years (except the A310) i agree 100% with the rest of your post however.

[Fart Master]

Emratty, spot on. Mensaboy, at a guess there hasn't been a DEC on the Airbus fleet for approx 2 1/2 years, have a look at the seniority list

[mensaboy]

I just counted 13 Airbus Captains on the seniority list who joined after April 05. In other words, less than 3 years to Command, while there are lots of F/O's on the list ahead of them. Why are these 13 out of sequence then? And why are numerous DEC's hired into the LH seat on the Boeing when guys are waiting on the Bus? I thought this was ONE airline, not TWO.

I suppose some of them are Accelerated Commands but that is STILL NOT IN ACCORDANCE with the FOM. F/O then Accelerated then DEC.

If I am out to lunch on those numbers, then my apologies, but other than Accelerated Commands, they must be DEC's.

In this time frame, there were NO new airbus aircraft arriving and yet they still took people out of seniority. What is going to happen when the new Airbus start arriving?

The number of DEC's on the Boeing in this time frame is shocking. Either way, Airbus F/O's have been seriously disadvantaged by the policy. The company needs a Boeing Captain?......... hell there are tons beyond 3 years waiting on the Airbus.......... slide them over !!

Whatever the numbers, there is no denying the fact that F/O's have been....... and will continue to be...... disadvantaged by a policy that is in direct contradiction to the FOM and the publicly proclaimed intent of the company.

This is a result of an 'intent' to disadvantage (to potentially save money), or an inability to attract candidates for F/O positions (a direct result of the same policy which must now be perpetuated in order to alleviate the crisis)

Either way, history proves (last 4 years) that DEC's are the preferred policy of this company. If that is the case, why all the subterfuge?......... simply state it in the FOM and during recruitment, then everyone knows the facts.

The company can do as it pleases. If it decides to become a DEC predominated airline then so be it. I don't think it was necessary in the past but now it might be, simply because the one big attraction of EK (a fast command on big shiney jets), is not exactly the reality of it all. Remember how it all started? ''Oh we got some unexpected A343's so we require DEC's'' What a load of crap, that was an excuse only. Once an airline starts down that road, for better or for worse, it is very difficult to alter the perception from prospective applicants and it is almost impossible to stop the policy once that happens.

It is self perpetuating. Hire some DEC's because there are not enough FO's in a position to upgrade (which in itself was a lie)..... then less FO's want to join......... so hire more DEC's because they can't get the FO's........... it is a neverending cycle.

Once again, nothing against the vast majority of DEC's. This is not about them........ it is about a stupid policy that is causing more problems than it is solving. Just my opinion.

[GoreTex]

mensa,
EK doesn't give a fcuck about their FO's and whatever they promised, its cheaper to get a DEC than to upgrade, cheaper thats what counts here, nothing else.
just wait for DEC's on the 380, tcas friends will come after they are done with BA, play golf and retire on the biggest aircraft in the world, the EK salary plus a BA pension is not too bad after all.

you are spot on about ed, tcas and tartan guy ( captain america(brian))

[Oblaaspop]

Guy's, just to kick you in the balls when you're down, it is CONFIRMED that we will NOW betaking DEC's onto the Airbus.

How about that chaps? What a bunch of un-caring/contemptuous C U Next Tuesdays our management are!

Potential DEC's please take note, its nothing personal guys, but if you join onto the Airbus now, you catagorically WILL be taking the place/jobs of F/O's who have been here over 4.5 years (50% longer than their Boeing counterparts already in the LHS) and will definately not be welcome! Sorry but its a fact.

This is costing the F/O's on average 10,000 dhs for every month they are not in the LHS... let alone the other perks like being able to let your kids in Business Class etc. 'kin unacceptable I'm sure you'll agree??

Also, you may be interested to know that you will spend an absolute MINIMUM of 6 months in the grottiest sh1thole temporary accomodation in Deira.

So be absolutely sure you want to come, knowing that you will be poorly regarded by your collegues, and where you WILL be living.

By all ,means come and join on the B777. The junior F/O's there are still getting their commands at 3 years, so they wont have arse ache...

[Fart Master]

Fair point Mensaboy, these Capts are on the 310. What I meant to say was that there have been no DEC's in the last 3'ish years or so on the 330/340 fleet:ok:

[TangoUniform]

I am guessing, but the DEC program is a money and asset deal. To hire a DEC takes only one training event and nobody being removed from the line. To upgrade a deserving first officer removes him from the line, requires a training event and another training event for his replacement.

That's the only reason I can see for the DEC program with the number of qualed right seaters available here already. Now if everybody in the right seat had limited time and experience, like many of the asian carriers, it might be justified. Go figure.......

[serious flyer]

Guy's, just to kick you in the balls when you're down, it is CONFIRMED that we will NOW betaking DEC's onto the Airbus.
Oblaaspop, as this is a Rumor site, nothing is really confirmed.;)
I've got good friends as Airbus FOs (I do not work for EK) and they had their upgrade courses postponed for 3 months, but they also told me that the movement of pilots (Captains and FOs) between Airbus and B777 fleets is suspended.
Emratty and Fart Master, those friends of mine have told me exactly the same as you have written here.
Could someone make these facts clear?
And as I see it, EK is likely to get a very small number of Decs due to the poor contract conditions, as well as the company accommodation issue, and I don't think they will get the chance to choose on which fleet they would like to fly.
Decs are everywhere and Emirates have been using this policy for years.
SF

[Oblaaspop]

SF my friend. I do work for EK, and I am 'in the know' so to speak, sadly this is no rumour!

What more can I say??

[pitoss]

To Oblaaspop,

it is because people like you that we are in this situation. Asking DEC's to go to the Boeing fleet is an extremely selfish suggestion. Each one of us with this attitude has led us to this situation. Instead, I would suggest to stop DEC's until there is no F/O been bypassed. Putting DEC's in different fleets doesn't solve the problem. Maybe you wouldn't mind in seeing DEC's in the Boeing fleet (which is really contradictory).
BTW, just for your info, Upgrades have been delayed in the Boeing and at this moment we are looking at a 4 or 5 months "delay".
In 2006 Emirates hired a large number of DEC's (95% of them in the Boeing and a few in the A310) and they continue to do it, although at a reduced rate. F/Os who joined in Aug. 2005 will start the course on October and be upgraded probably on December.
I simpatize with your cause, but throwing the dirty to the other side does not solve the problem.
A someone mentioned before, no one feels like is his/her right to get the command in 3 years, what people complain about is the fact that upgrades are being delayed because the F/Os are being bypassed and the FOM is not being followed. This is happening in ALL FLEETS.
Pitoss :=

[GMDS]

No use moaning and bitching.
It is all about numbers to fill seats, LH and RH. Aircraft are coming on both fleets (777 and 380) and recruitment is admittedly still getting all sorts of applications. Now it simply runs down to who accepts the poor conditions or who has the required qualifications, apparently not yet lowered to questionable standards.. …..
It appears that with the actual T&Cs, there are not enough FOs, but still some desperate Captains who sign on. Not surprisingly because when some carriers go bust in the USA not only FOs lose their seat, but skippers as well. Some WILL take the DEC offer irrespective of what EK FOs think of them. You all would do the same to feed a family. EK will take in whatever seems suitable to them, they just look for the fast numbers.
Another bottleneck is the instructors. Again their T&Cs are such, that not enough stay put. Training a entire crew is more efficient than running everyone through the FO mill, then the upgrade. Simple economics and ergonomics. Respecting contracts, following the own FOM, fulfilling promises or honouring what has been stipulated? It is simply not culture around here, not at EK, not in the Middle East. The only thing that counts is greed. Each department can just overview its own shed in their backyard. They get as little truth or information from above as we do, so they just have to work with what’s at their hands and deliver whatever is demanded. There is not a master plan to screw the FOs, there is just greedy pressure from above and the fastest and most cost effective solution is followed. Nobody in management wants to realise that this is short term thinking and a more logical and just solution would pay off in the long run. Proof is the dwindling numbers of suitable FOs applying, which is just a consequence of their poor treatment. Unfortunately this leads to the precarious situation that EK is forced to keep up the DEC program and the FOs are stuck on their seat even longer. We should encourage all our friends to apply as FOs, but who can do this with a clean conscience?
Moaning and bitching is futile. What could help? Unfortunately I don’t know.

[Mephistopheles]

Oblaaspop, how about we make a deal? If I come I will give you DH10000 per month and my nice shiney bars!!! Then would you smile at me from across the cockpit or would you sit there hoping I f*** myself up??? Buddy we had a similar thing in GF but it's not the guys who joins fault it's the company's fault. So at least aim your blame & contempt in the right direction. As they say "If the shoe was on the other foot...."
Otherwise I feel for all you guys. We got stuck for a long time due to DECs & other things?!. So the best of luck to you all.

[Oblaaspop]

Hey mate, if you actually bothered to read my post properly, I did state that it was 'nothing personal'. I also stated that AT PRESENT it is only the Airbus that is ADVERSELY affected (Pitoss, for your info - as clearly you haven't been here that long- the 'Bus has had an average of over 4 years to command for at least the last year, so stop whinging about your poxy couple of month delay), so on the Boeing you would be slightly better received!

For the record, I do not have a problem with the actual DEC's themselves (far from it), I do however have a major problem with this EVIL UNECCESSARY policy! Surely (despite your obvious thick skin) you are able to empathise a little here?

I just feel potential DEC's should be made aware of exactly what is going on in the company at present. Don't kid yourself that EK is deperately seeking your superior command skills because the F/O's aren't suitable, I would imagine several of the F/O's you will fly with here will have more experience in their little fingers than you have - its purely a financial reason.......

So don't take it so personally buddy, there are guys here who are clearly having their careers/lives screwed with badly. But then I guess you think we should all just roll over and take it up the wrong'un??

[B. Bonga]

Just to make this argument a bit simpler for us mere mortals, could the people concerned please answer the following:

1. Does EK actually state in writing, when one gets their command, or it's a given from previous guys or common practice ?

2. What delay are we talking about, when you say Airbus command delayed ?

3. How is EK going to/should crew the arriving A380 and B777 coming literally at one each month per aircraft for the next two year l think without recruiting DEC's ?

I think these and other questions might shed some light on the plight of the concerned parties.............and maybe we could sympathise with you.

[pitoss]

To Oblasspop,
I've been here for much longer than you think and I do know the Airbus guys have been waiting for 4 years. I also know that some of them (accelerate commands) got their upgrade in the Boeing last year and in the previous one and others are in the 6 months waiting period.
With that said, it doesn't change the fact that you are trying to clean up one side by damaging the other. The policy is wrong for everybody, but I guess as long as it is good (or better) for you, the rest doesn't matter. By the way, B777 F/Os are looking for 3 years and 5 months which is not much different if compared to the 4 years in the Airbus (maybe you can be happy now)!
Fly safe

Pitoss

[mensaboy]

B. Bonga,

1. Nothing is ever given in writing, all we have is what the FOM says as a guideline but in reality it is not followed unless it is to the company's advantage. The FOM in this case is used as a deceptive document, which is basically what is causing so much grief to people expecting it to be honored.

2. I don't know the delay and quite frankly I doubt anyone knows. But, as little as a couple of months ago, it appeared that the Airbus commands would get back on track as early as the end of this year. That prophesy appears to be wrong now. If I would guess, taking into account the arrival of the A380's, the recruiting difficulties (or at least recruiting those who are more willing to accept delays), the 'hints' of delays, the 2 year freeze for the poor bastards who have chosen the A380 right seat (then again they were told up front about that one, although I predict the company will come up with some excuse to keep them in the right seat well beyond 2 years after they switched fleets).... yes i'm cynical now.......... I would estimate most Airbus upgrades to be around 4 years for the foreseeable future. That is not that bad as long as that is what you are expecting prior to your arrival. It is just sad that it has come to that, when there was no need for any delays whatsoever.

3. It is easy to crew the arriving A380's and 777's if the company had any inclination towards a normal career progression for pilots. If they ran out of F/O's approaching 3 years, then certainly DEC's would be an option. Unfortunately, it is not the lack of 'upgradeable' F/O's that has motivated the insane DEC policy, so don't expect that to change. $$$$ is all that counts.

[Far Kinarss]

For Fark's sake you guys, havent you clicked yet?
Go to Easy or Ryan or some other poxy 737 airline (Air Malta etc) and do your upgrade; get your hours and come here as a DEC on your first ever Heavy and 'proper' international flying. Thats the calibre of most DECs coming here..30 year olds from Malaysian for christs sake! This is a Mickey Mouse outfit so put your ears on and come on down.

[Payscale]

It logical that the commands are slipping.

When we had 10 aircraft the youngest FO would be captain then the fleet doubled. 10 to 20 aircraft is quickly done i the gulf.

Now with 100 aircraft they need 200 for the same guy to make captain (baring no retirements and V Australia resignations). That could take some time, no?

[Oblaaspop]

Nothing is logical Payscale.

When your course date has been displayed on the portal for several months, and you have a personal letter from 'Fleet Management' on your dining room table stating your course date and telling you to get all your pre command bits done such as Psyc, Tech test and Interview (hope that answers your question B Bonga?), only to have a crappy XL spreadsheet suddenly appear on the portal saying your course is delayed indefinately (with little or no logical reason) and not a personal letter from the same person----now thats illogical and piss poor man management and basically unprofessional and 'kin rude------now that would be bad enough right? Then to find out that DEC's are gonna take your command spot???? Just think about it guys, its one big kick in the balls! (not to mention the fact that people had actually planned the rest of the year accordingly ie leave/family commitments etc).

Pitoss, FYO the guys who went accross to the B777 from the 'Bus (of which there were about half a dozen -- WOW!) had to do 6 months in the RHS first which still meant they were at least 4 years to command, so what's your point? (BTW guys who came from the B777 to the Airbus about 5 years ago didn't have to do the RHS bit). And mate if you think any part of this crapfest makes me happy, then you are a much bigger Tw@t than I originally had you down for -- and that's saying something!:}

[pitoss]

Oblasspop,

I think I made myself clear about what I think: No DEC's until all the F/Os and accelerate commands are upgraded. This is in all fleets. It is clearly not fair with the airbus and Boeing guys and the letter you received is a real shame and I understand your frustration; however I believe that if you read your previous post you'll see that is totally contradictory your suggestion of hiring DEC's for the B777, especially because they are already doing it!

I won't continue with this pointless discussion.

I wish you all the best when your time finally comes.

Pitoss

[RFusmoke]

are junior F/O s on the boeing less experienced than junior F/O on the airbus in EK????or is that the entitlement thing again?or maybe 3 years on the AB is worth more to you in experience than the Boeing...just ani inocent question ....moaner

[5star]

I feel sorry for the Bus guys being shafted once again.

As many said it before : this comes as no surprise....
EK is a M-E company.... They will do whatever suits them the best and they don't give a damn about YOU....
Promises, emails, letters, other stuff in written is worth NOTHING over here... Please bend over.... it won't hurt...:}:}:}
Wonder when they will start harressing the B fleet. It's a matter of months...


One last thing....

Maybe they might slow down upgrades with their new low-cost startup in the making. Where do you think they will find the skippers for that 737 or 320 operation? Yes, exactly...(check what is happening over at EY)....
In the mean time they could recruit another couple of hundred of DECs.... :mad::mad::mad: I hope it is nothing more than a bad dream.....

[peterowensfanclub]

Well if things get any worse in europe you will have a flood of DEC and FO that will change the landscape there for a while recruitmentwise. Just think ryr laying of lots of ex cadet 738 skippers all of 23 yo . Endless supply of dec for you. They wouldnt lower the requirements to fit would the...nah surely not.

.
The bubble is bursting and noone will escape the shockwave.

At least we can eat , dont depend on handout rice to survive which is the result of the current trends for many. So maybe it isnt that bad ...relatively speaking.

[Saltaire]

This place is certainly divided, and to no fault of any pilot group, but that's all we need; more 25 year old Ryan air types que jumping with their vast "command" experience. Such as RF perhaps...joke.

I feel for the guys disadvantaged, there is two separate companies at EK currently....however, there is something to be said about job security these days. Maybe a big pay raise will lift some spirits.

[MumbaiRadio]

But guys why don't you go to the girls at the fleet office and ask rather than spoiling your eyesight in front of a laptop? They know already and they will tell you what the 'delay' is going to be for your staff number... still a pretty good deal to be eligible for command so quickly..;)

[fac_2]

Far Kinars I wonder who is working for the poxy Airline. Well your handle says it all! I am an Airmalta driver and should you need to give some advise next time be advised that we do not accept DEC and it is stated in our ALPA contract. Stick your head out of that sand pit and get your facts right. We are an ALL Airbus fleet.

[emilio69]

What a statement Far kinarss.. so guys from 3rd world airlines dont know much about international flying huh... and have never handled a big jet... wow!!I wonder who the hell are flying those widebodies out from kul to europe,the middle east,the far east,the west and east coast of the us,oz,za,south america...etc... gremlins i guess..

[Far Kinarss]

Fac 2;
are you sure you work for Air Malta?
Your website says you operate B737s and you sure as heck used to even if you dont now so I guess you must be a newbie. Not that I give a :mad:

[peterowensfanclub]

Far Kinarss,
Care to enlighten us all on your previous experience proir to EK. Just want to get a handle on your vast prior experience that justifies your comments.

[fac_2]

Far Kinars you really enjoy digging yourself in the brown stuff do you!! Check my joining date. Are EK employing your level of IQ? Somming is wrong there. Eh lets say 8000 hrs + !!:ugh: But there again i am sure you are one of those that slipped the EK net. I don't think your CFI would like to hear you opinion of Airmalta or poxy airline as you put it being an Ex Airmalta himself.

[goatherd]

Bottom line is there are two airlines within Emirates, Airbus gets treated one way and Boeing another, your luck of the draw which one you're on!

Airbus F/O''s are being shafted because there are 16 DEC's coming on to the A330 and there are some very quiet transfers from the 777 for a select few over to the Bus so that some senior locals can go to the 380 later on.....

The company does'nt give a **** that your upgrade will come a year and 9 months after the 777 guys!!

Take the FOM and use it as toilet paper, it is all it is good for.:ugh:

[fatbus]

Dont worry the upgrades will become longer on the 777as well, think they are already starting to. When the 380's start showing up the bus will get back on track a bit, work down towards 3.5 years but only for a short time than both fleets will slow down. WHY? Short of F/O's in the door, the short term fix DEC's ... on both fleets

Have fun

I am out of here

[kingoftheslipstream]

Ladies 'n Gents,

I've skimmed through this whole thread twice and it is sure lookin' like tough luck for several A332/340 FOs.

I agree with the problems faced by all FOs who have been given indications (promises is too strong a word I reckon) that time to command would be 'round 3 years. Sentiment bein' what it is I looked at the EK Flight Crew portal and tried to make sense of what fleet manglement has scribed there in way of explanation on the career managment link and the Airbus upgrades for '08... it's typical mealy-mouthed EK doublespeak... long on words, short on clarity and there's a dearth of truth.

I have also heard from a reliable source about a sudden injection of DECs on the Airbus fleet which is the real source of the delay to the upgrade training. I jus' passed over the seniority list and I don't see any DECs on the Airbus yet, but they may well be comin'.

I reckon there may be valuable and valid commercial reasons for grabbin' some more DECs... this does make business sense occassionally, even though it hurts loyal competent FOs recruited under the guise of a different path to command. FOs affected by DECs take note: they are all junior to you! Relax. Most of y'all are young enough to absorb a few months more crappy FO pay before y'all get yer commands.

But wouldn't it be nice if manglement just quit playin' ****ty games and told the truth fer a change? Gawd I'm sick of this stupid back steppin', power trippin' bull****tin'. Like an FO I flew with recently said to a perty young gal who was bringin' us a coffee and sat 'n the jumpseat fer a chat: (I do think she liked that young FO!) "You know how to tell when management is lyin'?" (She was young and took the bait:) "How"
"Their lips are moving!".

BTW, if that young FO played his cards right, I reckon he's become that gal's newest best friend...:hmm:

[trimotor]

There's talk that a couple of Airbus F/O Recruitment PIlots are interviewing (or whatever they do) the DEC's that are holding up their commands..now that's rough..

[harry the cod]

Err, not really. Sounds to me those recruiting F/O's are perfectly placed. The failure rate for DEC's is notoriously high after all.......:E

Harry

[trimotor]

Is it? Not sure about that..

[BigGeordie]

It is for those particular DECs.:E

[harry the cod]

The success rate for DEC's is about 33-35% wheras for the DEP's it's slightly over half. That's based on those that make it to interview.

Harry

[whitejet]

Well said FAC2.
I'm surprised EK employ people like FarKinarrs with a level of IQ even lower than the success rate of DEC's with that airline.:confused: