Logging IR time in your Log Book???

[virginpilot1087]

Quick question on how people in JAA land log IR time in there log book?

I used to log it in USA as time spent flying under IFR and knock off say 6 mins on each end of the flight for taxiing ect, speaking to a guy today he said he logs the whole sector as IR time, anyone confirm this is the right or wrong way to do it??

Thanks

[Agaricus bisporus]

Why not write to the CAA and ask them?

[virginpilot1087]

Because with 220,000 members and average 2-3000 online at once i expect a faster responce here and save a stamp!

out of all these pilots someone should know i recon

[SNS3Guppy]

I used to log it in USA as time spent flying under IFR and knock off say 6 mins on each end of the flight for taxiing ect, speaking to a guy today he said he logs the whole sector as IR time, anyone confirm this is the right or wrong way to do it??


I can't speak to JAA/EASA/CAA requirements for logging of flight time, but you logged your time under the CFR's in the US incorrectly.

Instrument time is time spent in conditions requiring that the aircraft is controlled strictly by reference to instruments. That one is operating under Instrument Flight Rules is irrelevant. One may operate in the clear under VFR for the entire flight and never enter instrument conditions; one is not entitled to log instrument time for that flight.

Conversely, one may operate under Visual Flight Rules and legally be in conditions requiring flight by reference to instruments for most of, if not the entire time. The FAA Chief Legal Counsel has provided several legal interpretations detailing these circumstances, such as flight between cloud layers or flight over dark terrain at night. These are indeed instrument conditions, though one has adequate visibility and cloud clearance requirements that one is not actually in instrument meteorological conditions, nor does one even require an instrument rating (in the United States). This time may be logged as instrument flight time, rightfully so, as it's conducted in conditions requiring flight by reference to instruments. Even by someone without an instrument rating, and even when not operating under IFR.

Log the time spent actually flying by reference to instruments, when you have no other means by which to control the aircraft, as instrument time. Do not log time spent under IFR as instrument time, as it really has nothing to do with logging instruments.

[virginpilot1087]

Thanks for that info, not saying your wrong as you have clearly got knowlage on the subject, but that cant be practical, how can you accurately measure when you can and cant fly vfr, every time you go into a cloud yo would have to start a stop watch and stop it when you can see the ground again, plus now when flying along at FL380 its not easy to tell which road is which or do I have a map for it, so it has to be instrument time regardless if its perfect weather because I really have no other way to navigate.

there has to be something more simple than that as I am flying with ref to instruments all the time even though its vfr, so that would be at least simulated instrument but I feel its full IR time.

so back to top, what do I log in my book?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Virginpilot, as a, well, virgin pilot, you might at least have the manners to listen to the advice given by your less virgin colleagues, since you asked the question...

Try to get the idea that the correct answer is always found in the correct publication, from the correct source. Opinion sought re legal definitions here is seldom a reliable way of discerning the reality. How will a newbie like you determine which of the half dozan conflicting answers is the correct one? Not from experience, clearly.

But, if you think there is a better way than logging the time spent in flight with sole reference to instruments then you go right ahead, Captain!

:ugh:

[richatom]

Under the new JAR FCL rules, you log all flight time under IFR as IFR, from blocks off until blocks on - it does not matter in the slightest if you were in VMC or IMC.

[JW411]

In my 50 years of professional flying I only ever logged instrument time when hand-flying in actual IMC conditions. I don't suppose that would have averaged out to more than 10 minutes per sector.

How can you claim instrument time when you are sitting there watching the automatics do it all for you?

More to the point, who are you trying fool?

[SNS3Guppy]

Again, I can't address your JAR regulation, but as you indicated your logging of flight time in the United States, I can address that (and did).

plus now when flying along at FL380 its not easy to tell which road is which or do I have a map for it,


At 38,000' feet (FL380), you needn't be following a road map.

You say you were flying at FL380 under VFR? How did you accomplish that? At 38,000' you were in Class A airspace in the United States, which with an extremely limited exception, is positive control airspace under which you must operate IFR.

Instrument flight rules are regulations; these govern what you can and can't do, and have nothing to do with logging. The regulations in the Untied States regarding logging are found in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Part 61.51. This regulation, often referred to as the "FAR" (Federal Aviation Regulations) defines what you can and must log. Logging flight time has nothing to do with the regulations under which the flight was conducted.

If you intend to log IFR time, while there may be such a provision in Europe or England, there is no such provision in the United States. There exists a requirement for the logging of instrument time, but not IFR time. While you may have operated under IFR during the entire flight, you most likely didn't operate under conditions requiring flight by reference to instruments during the entire flight, and therefore should not log instrument time for the entire flight.

As a general rule of thumb, you'll probably find that most professional pilots can account for about 1/10 of their total time as instrument time.

Of course the notion of trying to log time spent flying through each individual cloud is utterly ridculous. I find that most of the time, I climb through a cloud layer and descend through one. I may spend much of the flight inbetween in various stages of reduced visibility or cloud, but I don't usually bother to log it as instrument.

You go log the entire flight as instrument time if it floats your boat. When you show up a job interview with one thousand hours of total time and five hundred hours of instrument (or whatever your relative times may be), you had better be the best instrument pilot on the planet, because the employer will be expecting it when you do your sim evaluation. When you show up with ten thousand total hours and five thousand of that as actual instrument, the employer won't give you the time of day because it just sounds ridiculous. It's also certainly not in accordance with the regulation or common sense.

how can you accurately measure when you can and cant fly vfr,


What do you mean? The regulation spelling out what constitutes VFR flight and IFR flight is very clear, and very specific. You can't tell when you can't legally fly VFR? You don't understand specific visibility requirements and distance from cloud requirements in order to act under VFR? What are you saying?

[richatom]

More to the point, who are you trying fool?


More to the point, who are YOU trying to fool?

What is the point in logging time hand-flown with sole reference to instruments? It is not particularly difficult, nor does it serve any purpose in its own right. You might just as well log time flying, say, while eating a sandwich.

You log time flown under Instrument Flight Rules because it is just that - a whole different set of rules and procedures from Visual Flight Rules. Public transport operates almost exclusively under IFR, that is why a pilot must demonstrate experience operating under IFR to move up the ladder of qualifications and experience, and so that is why you log IFR as all time, blocks off to blocks on, with an IFR flight plan.

If you look up the JAR FCL 1.080 requirements you will see it spelt out for you.

[virginpilot1087]

jesus and for ***** sake, this has gone sideways into personal attacks very ******* quickly i see

that last bit about legaly logging vfr must have been a typo, i do know the requirements as had to recite them many times, all i want to know is should i put the flight in my log book as on instruments or not, one guy says JAR say yes the whole thing and your saying only time flying on instruments, fair enough i see both points and still dont know which is legal so will have to read the book, as for the cock who said your sat watching the automatics not flying, well thats true for a lot of stuff, but you still have to know how to work the automatics so your essentialy flying still, my buddy who sells cars for a living could not fly the plane on automatics because he cant use them!, 3 take offs and landings in 90 days, even if its a cat 3 autoland it still counts towards your 3 even though you did not land the plane by hand, the stick and the auto pilot are both flying controls when you look at it, just one requires a lot more input from the pilot

as for logging the whole time as instruments floating my boat???? WTF,, i really dont give a **** how much IR time I log as I have a job and am flying,, i just simply want to know how to log the time so I dont make any mistakes, hence asking in the first place, this site really is ****** up and people cant get a simple answer because everyone goes bashing each other for not useing correct grammer and commas in the right place,,,, get over it for gods sake, it was just meant to be a simple question.

thanks to the couple who gave info and did not get all god like.

[richatom]

VirginPilot - you can discount what the FAA pilot says - they have different rules to JAR Land. I suggest that if you don't already have one, get yourself a logbook that meets JAR FCL 1.080 requirements (eg Jeppesen black logbook).

My Jeppesen FCL1.080 logbook states clearly in the "Instructions for Use", that in column 9 for "Operational Condition Time", that you "enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable".

These are the rules, and sensible rules too.

It is true that in older logbooks you logged "flight with sole reference to instruments" and this may be why some of the oldies are still hung up on this. Perhaps that was relevant in the days before IFR and all its procedures were invented, and perhaps on older aircraft it was genuinely difficult, but it is largely irrelevant today. After all, flying by sole reference to instruments only takes a few hours to master and is really not difficult at all - so why spend you whole life logging it?

[SNS3Guppy]

What is the point in logging time hand-flown with sole reference


Who said anything about hand flying as having any connection with logging the flight time?

The original poster introduced his experience in the US, and correct information was given with respect to that. Don't like it? Take it up with the FAA Chief Legal Counsel...that's the source.

[Denti]

There is a fundamental difference between the US and the european system.

In the US you basicly log IMC time whereas in europe you log IFR time. The former refers to flying with the sole reference to instruments, the latter refers to flying under an IFR flightplan (and of course that means off block til on block). Under JAR you can log additionally IMC time if you like, however that should go into the remarks column, or any free column you might have in your logbook.

[underread east]

I have recently unfrozen my (JAA) ATPL. I sent log-book with all sectors recorded as IR block to block. They UK CAA did not seem to have any problem with this at all. QED legal?

[2close]

Most log books have a column for Instrument Flight, i.e. flight in Instrument Conditions, whether simulated or actual, but few I've seen (if any?) have specific columns for VFR and IFR (which can be flown in VMC at 3,000' AMSL, provided the requirements for IFR are met!).

Personally, I record IF as that time spent in actual or simulated instrument conditions and don't bother recording IFR apart from a comment in the remarks column.

Both FAA and JAA seem quite happy with that.

[Brian Fantana]

Virginpilot1087
I have the CAA type logbook which has a separate instrument flying column. I put the the total block time (chocks off to chocks on) in that column, and have been doing so for years when I'm flying commercially.
The CAA asked me no question when I applied for my ATPL, so I will continue logging hours this way.
If some smart ar$e want to tell me I am doing this incorrectly - fine, I dont give a damn and it seems the CAA dont either.
BF

[White Knight]

Stupid discussion - once you've got an ATPL why bother anyway:confused::confused: I haven't logged Instrument Flying for years...

[virginpilot1087]

Stupid answer! I dont have an ATPL! I have a Frozen one.

[Bealzebub]

Perhaps there should be examination questions on how to fill in your log book ? Before reading some of the questions that get raised here, I never thought it was that difficult. The times start when you first move under your own steam. The time stops when you arrive on stand and shut the engines down. The total time was the latter minus the former, unless you had swapped duties with someone else in between, or had died en-route.

If you are in command of the flight you are P1. If you are the co-pilot carrying out co-pilot duties you are P2. If you are co-pilot acting as the pilot in command and under their supervision you are P1/S. If you are sitting on the jump seat you are supernumery and needn't bother logging it at all.

Day hours were about 30 minutes before the sun came up, until 30 minutes after the sun went down, unless weather conditions or some other valid consideration made you judge otherwise. Night hours were the rest of the time. Instrument flying was when you (manually or through the auto flight system) were flying with sole reference to instruments (in airliners virtually the entire time you are aloft).

If you are still not sure then apply a bit of common sense and judgement. Nobody will fault you for that.